Interview
with T____, of the Buraku Liberation and Human Rights Research Centre.
Conducted
on the 27th of July 2000 at BLHRRI Headquarters in N____, Osaka.
Translated by Ian Laidlaw.
I - Ian Laidlaw
T – T____
Interview Begins
T: So the liberation league began on the 3rd of March, 1922, as the Zenkoku-Suiheisha organisation. The period between then and the start of WWII is what is called the first term. The distinctive feature of this period was that discrimination was the norm, so if you went to school then discrimination would occur there, discrimination would occur in regional society, discrimination would occur at your place of work, and there was discrimination at times in marriage. The movement to end that discrimination is called the kyűdan. They used kyűdan as a means of action. This was the first term.
Then in February of 1946 they changed their name to the National Committee for Buraku Liberation. We are now the Buraku Liberation League. We have human rights aspects included in BLHRRI, but there are not human rights aspects included in the movement organisation. So the movement resumed as the National Committee for Buraku Liberation. The distinctive feature of the movement of this period was that, while the discrimination that occurred in marriage and in work was still called discrimination, the conditions were that Buraku people did not have jobs and couldn’t undergo business education. Also, they were not attending high school and the housing conditions of Buraku were like slums. These kinds of conditions that the Buraku had are also forms of discrimination so they began to work towards instigating regional, national and administrative reforms. That was called the gyôsei-tôsô (administrative struggle). The administration was the nation, the regions and the regional governments. So they wanted the nation, regions and administrations to run projects of Buraku housing improvements and to make scholarships available [for Buraku children] to be able to attend high school. They negotiated for these things. The word for this in the liberation league is gyôsei-tôsô. Tôsô means struggle, and gyôsei relates to the nation, region and regional governments. These areas of discrimination, by having done this, saw improvements to some extent such as the building of iron public housing complexes for Buraku and, while there were still gaps, the increase in number of [Buraku people] attending high school and university. So looking back 30 years at the situation then and comparing it to the situation of today’s Buraku, there have definitely been improvements.
Then, around 1985, we entered the third term. There are three major distinctive features [about this term]. The first is that instead of moving towards a partial solution to the Buraku problem, we began to move towards a total solution. For example, improving housing and going to high school alone will not put an end to Buraku discrimination. There are, of course, people who live in the areas surrounding Buraku who have discriminatory prejudice and mistaken viewpoints. We must change this, the discriminatory consciousness of the people surrounding the Buraku. Also, even now there are many incidents of discrimination, and discriminatory incidents in job hunting, and we must eradicate those [kinds of incidents]. To that end we began to demand, from May 1985, that a Fundamental Law for Buraku Liberation must be created. Why? It is because we can not have a partial solution to the Buraku problem, we must have a complete solution. By complete I mean that things such as discriminatory consciousness and incidents of discrimination must be resolved. We began to clearly demand this in 1985.
The second [major distinctive feature] was that we no longer [just wanted to] improve the Buraku areas, but also the areas surrounding the Buraku and also the discrimination outside of Buraku discrimination, such as that against Korean residents of Japan and second-generation Koreans, there is that kind of discrimination as well. So we don’t just want to improve the Buraku, but also the areas surrounding the Buraku. And not only Buraku discrimination, but also moving forward with an aim to end that against Korean residents of Japan, second generation Koreans, and other people who face discrimination.
The third [major distinctive feature] is international responsibility. Since we have internationalised, we have joined the struggle to end the problem of discrimination all around the world. This was with the creation of the organisation IMADR (The International Movement Against All Forms of Discrimination and Racism) in 1988. So we are aiming at a complete solution to the Buraku problem rather than a partial solution, we are not aiming at improving only the Buraku areas, but also those areas surrounding the Buraku and aiming to end discrimination across Japan, and since the world has internationalised, we are seeking solutions to problems of discrimination in other countries. These are the distinctive features of the third term of the movement.
I: With regard to Buraku children, what
is the biggest problem that you are currently facing in Dowa education?
T: Speaking generally, there are two main fields in Dowa education. The first is to increase the academic ability of Buraku children. Right now in Japan about 95% of children proceed to high school after graduating from middle school. The Buraku percentage, however, is only 89-90%. So we have come close [to the national average], but there is still a gap. In the case of university, the proportion of people entering university after graduating from high school in Japan is about 45%, but the Buraku proportion is only about 26%. There is a gap. The reason that there is a gap is because there is a definite difference in academic ability. So there is a big problem in increasing the academic ability [of Buraku children]. The other issue is that some children have prejudice against Buraku children. These are children who do not come from Buraku areas, and it is important to remove this prejudice. Children [commit acts of] discrimination in primary school, middle school and high school. The reason is because they have mistaken ways of thinking. We must remove these mistaken ways of thinking.
I: What percentage of universities have
introduced some form of Dowa education?
T: This is related to the rate of entrance into high schools. This is the national rate (95%), and this is the Buraku rate (89-90%). This is the rate of entrance into university. This is the national average data (45%) and this is the Buraku average data (26%). This is the 1997 data on how far Buraku children are progressing in education. This is the [rate for] national universities, and this is that of public universities, for example the Osaka City University and the universities that are administrated by regional governments. This is a private university. In total, 39.6% of universities teach about the Buraku problem. So it is still not the case that all universities are teaching about it.
I: There is an opinion that Buraku are
being maintained for economic purposes.
It is good for business as companies do not have to pay them very much,
since Buraku people can be hired at low wages, there are people who interpret
it that way. What is your opinion on
that?
T: I do not think that is the case that that does not happen, but I do not think that it is only Buraku people who are subjected to that role. I think that Korean residents of Japan are also subjected to that. I think that there is also a new situation where migrant workers are coming to Japan and being placed in the same position. So I think that it is not just Buraku people who are in that role. However, there are Buraku people who have found stable employment. I do not think that it is a simple situation [to explain], but to speak generally I think that it can be said [that Buraku people are subjected to poor working conditions]. But I don’t think that it should be thought of as being as simple as that because it does not only happen to Buraku people, but to women as well for example. It is very difficult for women to find stable employment with a good income. It is the same for Koreans. For example there are also people who have come over from China, people who have come over from the Philippines, and people who have returned here from Brazil, and all these people face similar troublesome circumstances in working. So you must be careful to realise that it is not just Buraku people [who face those conditions] and also that there are Buraku people who find stable jobs with good income. For example, there are [Buraku] people who work in city hall, or as school teachers. So thinking about it too simply would be a mistake, but looking at the big picture, I think it would be as the sensei said.
I: Could you tell me about the
systemisation of the eta-hinin groups?
T: Scholars are divided as to that so right now nobody has come to a correct [theory]. So there is confusion. Even we cannot say that. Looking at it generally, there are records from the Kamakura and Muromachi periods that mention eta-hinin. However, it was a fluid concept. The shokuhôseiken is the name of the government that lasted from when Toyotomi Hideyoshi conducted the land surveys until the reign of the third shogun, Iemitsu. From the shokuhôseiken until the early Edo period the social structure became frozen, which is the idea that has the most influence [on the thinking of scholars]. The majority opinion is that discrimination [against the Buraku-type outcastes] strengthened from the middle to the end of the Edo period. Then in 1871, the liberation edict was promulgated and the existing eta-hinin status was abolished. This saw the Edo people who were called peasants, townspeople and eta-hinin, become heimin (common people). However, while the peasants and townspeople became heimin in 1868 with the occurrence of the Meiji Restoration, the Buraku people were left behind a little. In order to differentiate them, they were called shin-heimin (new-commoners). So shin-heimin are the same as Buraku people. Therefore, shin-heimin was a new discriminatory term.
I: Was it a name that the Meiji
government attached to them from the beginning?
T: No, it was not attached by the Meiji government. It was created by the people. It was discrimination that was created by the populace. One other thing, in Japan the meaning of ‘Buraku’ is a centre of population, so it is not only a word to point out discriminated against Buraku. A Buraku that is subjected to discrimination is not an average ‘Buraku’, it is a special ‘Buraku’ so the term tokubetsu-Buraku (special-Buraku) was made. So heimin referred to all common people and the word shin-heimin came about to differentiate Buraku people, and in the same way the word ‘Buraku’ does not just point out the Buraku that face discrimination, other areas are also referred to as Buraku. It is mostly agricultural communities, so for towns and cities the word ‘Buraku’ is not used. Buraku are centres of population in which 50 or more agricultural community households have grouped together. Therefore, in order to discriminatorily point out Buraku that are subjected to discrimination the Buraku people, for example when Toyotomi Hideyoshi committed aggression against Korea and brought back people to live in certain areas there was that kind of prejudice against people of a separate race, so there are occasions where a word was used to point out a difference in class origins. However, the normal Buraku are different, there are two special types. So the word came about. There are people who have studied this, from the middle of the Meiji period in administrative documents, in Nara ken and Mie ken regional government documents, it can be found.
I: If a fundamental law was created and
discrimination disappeared, then would there be a possibility that any special
Buraku culture would also be lost, and how is such culture being maintained?
T: Firstly, it is not that simple a matter to create a fundamental law. There is a corresponding amount of hardship that is required. It is not that simple to create a Fundamental Law for Buraku Liberation. For example, there is the Buraku Liberation Cultural Festival. There is a movement to retain the traditional Buraku culture, food culture and things like that that still remain. In that way there is a possibility that an identity remains. One other thing is that we have definitely faced a long period of suffering under discrimination so there is a possibility of the development of an identity because of the move to participate actively in ending discrimination all across Japan and the world. Actually, I think it has already been born with the creation of IMADR. I think that in that way our traditions remain. So there are two kinds of traditions, the identity that has been inherited in characteristic Buraku songs, dances, foods and those kinds of things, and there is the possibility that there is identity in our movement to participate vigorously in ending discrimination and human rights violations against other people in Japan who are also susceptible to discrimination, because of our deep concern for human rights.
Not everybody participates in Buraku Liberation however. There are people who do not participate in Buraku Liberation, and people who do. But thinking about it, at the time of the Suiheisha, it was not the case that all Buraku people joined the movement then. Only a part. So however much we extend the Buraku Liberation [movement], the number of people who participate in it will never be 100%. Only a part.
I: Are there any national or regional
policies to end discrimination, or is there national or regional support of the
liberation movement?
T: Nationally, they are not acting with enthusiasm. They are not very active, but they are acting to a degree. For example, there has been a support budget set up by law recently, and with regard to our Fundamental Law, they have set up a commission of inquiry and are now debating the matter. However, as to what answer there will be from that, and as to the amount of the budget, there is a gap between that and what we requested. So while it is not that progressive on a national level, but it can be said that it is to a certain extent. As to regional government, it varies according to region. For example, in Osaka where the Liberation Movement is strong, they are acting earnestly. However, in places where the Liberation Movement is weak, there is not much being done. It depends on the strength of the movement.
I: What are the positive and the
negative things that have come as a result of the Special Measures Laws?
T: On the affirmative side of things, the housing for Buraku areas and the conditions of progression into high schools. Housing has been improved and numbers [of Buraku children] progressing into high school have increased. These are the positive aspects. With regard to the negative aspects, The law that has been in use up until now has been the sabetsu-sochihô. As to what the sabestu (discrimination) is, the country gives two thirds of the assistance to regional governments. The remaining third of the money is given as loans. In Japan, this is called loan floatation. Loan flotation is when the limits of the loan are decided on. Within this, eight tenths of the borrowed money does not have to be repaid so in the end with the remaining 1/15, work is allocated to the regional government. So, as to who does the Dowa Countermeasures work and the Buraku work, it is the regional government. The country supports this. It is normal countermeasure work, so they do not give much assistance. It is therefore discriminatory. Also, with regard to the discrimination laws, they are only applied to certain areas, and if that [area] is not decided on [to be applied to] then the Special Measures Laws cannot be used [there]. If it was applied all over Japan then there would be no Special Measures. In that way, this area has been improved. In a short time [this area] has become extremely good, but the law does not apply to the other surrounding areas so they are not improved. By doing that, there has been resistance from here. [people complain], “why have only the Buraku areas been improved”, and there is resistance in the form of reverse discrimination. Why does this happen? Because even though they are still in a good position, they are impudent and so they attack.
The other thing is that when you look at the Buraku, the amount of effort you have made yourselves and the amount of support you have received from the nation do not add up to the same amount. Even though they do not add up to the same amount, asking the national and regional government to help brings about a reliance upon them. Therefore [people think] that it will be easy because we will always get the [benefits of the] Special Measures Laws. For example, one of the countermeasures is the scholarships for high school, and even though one can borrow money, after graduation it must be paid back, it is that way with scholarships in Japan, and with this kind of countermeasure. Then with the Special Measures if they made it so the money did not have to be paid back then it would be much easier. Then, irrespective of the improvements to our lives, the student’s situation would look much better so a consciousness would develop of forever wanting handouts. However, if the Buraku situation was really bad, even if the surrounding people understood this, even if the Buraku people were able to get stable jobs with good pay, if they were the only ones who did not have to pay back the money and the people outside the Buraku did have to pay back the money then it would cause resistance. In that way I think that the Special Measures are a necessary temporary system, but if they were to continue on for too long then there would be big problems. It would have a negative side. Therefore, with regard to the people who have seen improvements to some extent thanks to the Special Measures, from now on they will be asserting that they do not want the Special Measures any more and that they want to lessen the discrimination a little. So the problem with the Special Measures is that there is resistance from surrounding areas. It cannot be avoided. The Special [Measures] are useful for building buildings and providing high school scholarships, but they are not useful at all in changing this kind of [discriminatory] consciousness. Without another law to educate [people] or to prohibit [discriminatory behaviour] we will not be able to change that consciousness, the Special Measures are not at all useful with regard to the prejudice in the [districts] surrounding the Buraku areas.
I: Up until now the liberation movement
has put effort into improving the environment of the [Buraku] areas, but what
road will the liberation movement now take in trying to end discrimination?
T: In the time of the Suiheisha the group was the centre, then after the war the Buraku liberation movement was rebuilt into the National Committee for Buraku Liberation and at that time they tried to influence the national and regional governments to change the aspects of Buraku that were behind and so the Special Measures Laws were created. However, Buraku discrimination did not disappear. Then around 1985 [we realised] that this was unacceptable and so, instead of a partial solution, we decided to go for a complete solution to the Buraku problem. By complete, we mean [resolving] the 3 aspects which are the aspects of Buraku that are behind [the mainstream], the psychological discrimination and the conditions that support Buraku discrimination. The aspects that are behind are the conditions surrounding the locations of Buraku areas. For example, when rivers flood, the first areas to be affected by the flooding are often Buraku areas. This is called location conditions. In other words, location, place or dwelling environment. If the housing is not very good then the perception of the surrounding people that Buraku people are unclean does not change. So the standard of living of Buraku people, whether or not they have jobs, even if they have jobs do they only have enough income to be able to eat, what kind of job they have, are they able to go to high school and university, this is one important field in the Buraku problem. Another thing is incidents of discrimination. Incidents of discrimination in things like marriage and job hunting. I think that the reform of this kind of discrimination is in a slightly different area. With regard to this, we have the denunciation movement. If there is not education, more progressive enlightenment [programmes], legislation to prohibit this, and things like that then the incidents of discrimination will not disappear. Also, if we do not run education and enlightenment programmes then discriminatory consciousness will not disappear. So this also is an extremely important field.
So, one thing that we have not really discussed so far, we have not given serious consideration to, is whether or not there are any conditions that support Buraku discrimination. Customs for example. If we are speaking of customs in Japan, we should be very concerned about the household. When a marriage takes place, it is the case that in marriage there is person A and person B, but it is also definitely the case that a household is received. Written on the notice board in a marriage hotel there are the names of the households that are involved, where it is taking place and between what times. So here we use the term ‘household’. So I am called T____, and so it would be the case that “T____ household” would be there. So it is the marriage of two households. In doing that, the rank of a household becomes an issue. A high ranking household and a low ranking household. Instead of looking at whether not person A and person B are good people, the main question becomes what household that person belongs to. This is the custom. Since it is limited as to what household is adopted, Buraku discrimination cannot really be resolved. It happens that Buraku people are stopped [from marrying]. Another thing is that, looking at the system, the biggest issue is the family register. The family register does not contain [information on] individuals, but it registers household units. In doing that you can know about a family from the family register. So by looking at the family register you can unfortunately find out who the parents are, the formalities of the parents marriage and whether or not they had children after marriage. You can also find out how many siblings there are and whether or not they have married or divorced. So in the case of Japan, there is a permanent domicile. The place where you currently live is called your permanent address, but there is also your permanent domicile. This permanent domicile is your ancestors’ birthplace. For example, I live in Osaka, but my ancestors were born in Kyűshű and so that remains recorded as my permanent domicile. So a problem that very often occurs in the Buraku issue is when people think that because their permanent domicile is within a Buraku, if they leave and keep silent then people will not know from their external appearance that they are a Buraku person. So they wonder why they should have to like forever in a Buraku and so they change the location of their residence and say that they will no longer be able to be identified [as a Burakumin], but their permanent domicile remains recorded. After the war the law was reformed so that if you moved your permanent address from A to B and then to C, and on and on, the administrative document would still retain your origins. Where you have come from. So the most common case is when two people are interested in one-another and marry, but in Japan there are professional detective agencies who you can pay to search to report that “this person is a Burakumin”. Then the marriage is off. So this family register system poses a problem for the resolution of the Buraku problem. This thing must be reformed. I also think that , with regard to the envy-discrimination that we talked about earlier where criticism comes out about why only the Buraku are being improved, surrounding people do not have a correct understanding. They do not understand why this work is being carried out. Also, the people who have this envy, they are people whose houses are not in good condition. If they lived in big houses and saw the concrete housing being built in Buraku areas, they would not want to live in them so would not have any envy-discrimination. But from the perspective of people who live in small houses and pay high rent, they get very offended when they see great concrete housing being built and hear that the rent there is quite cheep. Also, there are people surrounding the Buraku who do not differ much in hardship from the Buraku people. So if their conditions are not improved then Buraku discrimination will not eventually disappear. That is the second thing that the Buraku Liberation League is currently having to consider, about not just Buraku people but also those who live in the surrounding areas. So not only improving Buraku areas, but also turning cities with Buraku in them into cities that respect human rights. So now we are trying to build towns that respect human rights. Then will Buraku discrimination not disappear? Also there is one tangible example of international responsibility, which is the Buraku-lists [Buraku-chimei-sôkan] incident. It emerged in November 1975, and still continues today. A number of years after it happened, I think in 1980, there was a group called the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Coloured People) in America, which is the most influential American black liberation movement. We extended an invitation and their leaders came here. So when we did the exchange, we discussed the Buraku discrimination problem and they asked for the names of the companies who bought the Buraku-lists. In those days, Japan exported bicycles to America, so we told them that Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Daihatsu and other companies who made bicycles had bought the Buraku-lists and the black leaders said that if it were those companies, then they may be discriminating against black people in America. In those days Japan had built lumber yards in America and was producing cars, but were not employing black people. Also at that time, when apartheid in South Africa was extremely bad, I attended a national treasury meeting. The names of companies who had been conducting business with South Africa in the year since economic sanctions had been introduced were officially proclaimed. Looking at that that list, there were many Japanese companies on it. Most of them were ones who had purchased the Buraku-lists. And so, companies who were discriminating against Buraku people in Japan were also discriminating against Black people in America and were supporting apartheid in South Africa. The thing that we realised was that discrimination was occurring at an international level. In that case, efforts to end discrimination were being broken up and were not prevailing. So we created IMADR in an effort to join with the black liberation movement in America and the people in Europe working with the foreign labourers problem, to work toward the elimination of discrimination together, as a joint international responsibility. So I think that those three things are the important parts of the future movement. We must not only being satisfied with a partial solution to the Buraku problem, but we must move for a complete solution. Me must not only improve the Buraku areas, but we must also include the surrounding areas and build towns that respect human rights. With the coming of internationalism, we must not only hold concern over the Buraku problem in Japan, but we must join to end discrimination in other countries. I think that these three things will be the one supporting pillar for the future of the liberation movement
Interview Ends