Back Home

Interview with T____, of the Buraku Liberation League.

Conducted on the 8^th of August 2000 at the Buraku Liberation League Headquarters; R____, Tokyo.

Translated by Ian Laidlaw.

I - Ian Laidlaw

T – T____

Interview Begins

I: Lately many non-Buraku people have been entering the Buraku Liberation League, why do you think that is?

T: I’m not sure how the rest of the people in the movement see it. The movement to end discrimination exists because there are people who commit discrimination and people who oppose that. So in order to eliminate discrimination, if only the people who were discriminated against tried to eliminate it then the movement would not achieve anything.

The problem of discrimination is that there is a relationship between the people who do it and those who are on the receiving end of it, and that is the reason that the problem exists. It’s not a problem where only one of the groups is persevering. In Japan the Buraku problem, the Dowa problem, is said to have always been a national issue, or an issue pertaining to society, so it is imperative that everybody consider it. For example, there is the aboriginal issue where you are from, Ian.

It is not the case that if just the aboriginal people moved to do something like stopping people discriminating against them then discrimination would end. Surely, everybody has to consider the problem of discrimination.

Originally, probably even in the liberation movement, I think that there was probably quite a lot of resistance to non-Buraku people entering the movement. Then, as their understanding [of the problem] changed, they realised that they couldn’t do it by themselves, but they had to include everybody and so people like me who come from non-Buraku origins started to enter the movement. So, because of that, the liberation movement has become a little bit more diverse. Long ago it was only one group of people doing it, but it has slowly, bit by bit, diversified and I think that it will continue to head in that direction in the future.

I: How diversified do you think it has become?

T: In substance, but it still has a long way to go. There may be a lot of people who understand the reality of it in their heads, but the proportion of people who express it in their actions is maybe only 1 in 20, or about 5%. However, the people participating in the liberation movement are not just the people who work here [in the BLL]. Everybody in their places or work, if they are a school teacher then there are things they can do at the school, and people who work in society, like businessmen, have things that they can do in their offices.

I: Are there many different kinds of people who have entered the BLL, such as business people or housewives?

T: If we are speaking about the movement in each region or community then, for example, in events of the Buraku, like festivals or study meetings, the number of people from outside the Buraku who come along and participate has increased and so I think that the stereotypes and prejudices that have been held against the Buraku are slowly being removed.

Up until now, people have seen Buraku as being different from themselves and so the connection [of the Buraku] with the rest of society, or the mainstream social lifestyle, has been cut off but that is slowly changing, from the perspective of lifestyle. From that part, harmless social contact, that will happen no matter what, but regardless of what we do, there are still walls with things like marriage. This is because there are few marriages between neighbouring districts. They probably have this problem in Osaka as well. You may have heard this already, but nationally the rate of marriage between Buraku and non-Buraku people has increased, but only between people who live a long way from each other.

Marriages between Buraku people and people from neighbouring non-Buraku districts are still a big problem. In Japan there are not many instances of Buraku discrimination ??? (Nihon tte iu ka Buraku sabetsu no baai wa tsukunai). Numerically I think that they are increasing. Increasing but, for instance, marriage between an Osaka person and a person from Tokyo occurs, but there are not many between two people who are both from Tokyo.

I: When I went to M____ Buraku the person I spoke to there said that as well, because the parents from the neighbouring non-Buraku districts still have strong anti-Buraku prejudice.

T: Ah, in M____

I: How many Buraku are there in Tokyo?

T: In Tokyo? That is a difficult question. The Tokyo administrative policy is, in Osaka for example there are Dowa areas like M____ and S____ that have been identified by the administration there as “this is a Buraku area”, or “this is a Dowa area”, and have therefore come under the care of the local administration and policy. In Tokyo’s case, there is no special identification. Historically there were many [Buraku]. There were surveys. So how many are there now then…now the branch office covers about 8 Buraku districts in Tokyo. K____ and S____. Maybe about 10. There are also many places in Tokyo that are no longer identifiable, because of the war and the earthquake, the 1923 Tokyo earthquake occurred and [many Buraku districts] became unidentifiable.

The reason that they were lost is because, originally Buraku villages or communities were created and lived in, but because of the bombing in the war and the earthquake, they changed. Much of Tokyo was improved and roads were constructed. The communities were dismantled and disappeared. The people didn’t disappear, but you couldn’t tell with your eyes anymore [that a community had been a Buraku one]. So, together with the economic growth, there were a great many Buraku that disappeared in Tokyo and in the many neighbouring areas, but there are still Buraku that exist. If you go outside the city centre then you will inevitably find Buraku areas located nearby Shinto shrines.

I: Are there many non-Dowa Buraku areas?

T: Yes there are. In Tokyo there are. There are districts do not conform to the administratively defined ‘Dowa regions’ but it is plain to see that they are areas that are subjected to discrimination.

I: I asked the BLL in Osaka about that, why there are Buraku that are not involved in the movement. The Osaka BLL said that some Buraku believe that if they become Dowa areas then they will be subjected to even stronger discrimination. Is that sort of thing said in Tokyo as well?

T: It is, it is. That is in Tokyo as well. They do not have any movement because they believe that if they just keep quiet then the surrounding people will forget about them. There are places that do not participate.

I: Does the BLL know where those Buraku are located?

T: Yes, we know.

I: But there is not much action there so…

T: Yes, also the people there say that they no longer wish to participate and we cannot force them against their will. It is because there are different ways of thinking.

I: With S____ Buraku, for example, it is completely different now compared to what it was like 30 years ago. It has become a very beautiful place now, but those Buraku areas that are not Dowa districts, there would be very unclean ones wouldn’t there?

T: I don’t think there would be any more in Tokyo, those kind of places have mostly disappeared here in Tokyo. There is only [this kind of] town now. That kind of place has disappeared in Tokyo. However, if you go outside Tokyo, further north, then there are places [like that] there. They have not been active so they remain in a constant condition, and the administration has not done anything and the areas have become neglected, the roads are very narrow. The place that I live in, which is in Tochigi prefecture, even in the town that I live in, it is just at last now seeing some construction being initiated. As to what kind of Buraku it was, it is a Buraku that is situated near a railway station and it is like this [gestures] – like the station is here and the Buraku is here. This is a Dowa Buraku, but the roads were extremely narrow, such that you could only go in by bicycle or on foot. So there are many houses in this place and the people who live here had to park their cars here [outside the Buraku]. You couldn’t park your car at your house because cars could not enter [the Buraku]. Fire engines couldn’t enter either. It was that kind of place, but at last roads [have been improved] just this year.

Construction is still progressing but at least it has been instigated. Because it was this kind of place, the people here, for example, when an elderly man or woman died the house unfortunately became vacant.

Nobody wants to live in a place where they can’t park their car [at their house] so they don’t live there. Everybody is enclosed in so the houses are cramped and they can’t sell them or the land. Even though they want to sell, nobody comes to buy. So, there were lots of vacant houses and less and less people came to live there so finally something had to be done about it and construction recently began.

I: Construction?

T: Construction. By ‘construction’ I mean the improvement of the town. “Construction” I think. Roads and things like that. Recently that has been started. So finally cars are able to pass through.

I: What do you think the BLL should do about the non-Dowa areas?

T: Apart from persuasion…I think we have to ask them if they really think that it is okay [to continue on as they are], to the people who oppose [action]. “If you don’t want to [take action] then that is okay for you, but do you really think that it’s okay for your children, for your grandchildren and their children who will always live here [in a place] that doesn’t even have roads? If you do that then people will know when they look in from the surrounding areas”. I think that it is necessary to think hard about the fact that the idea of becoming invisible by doing nothing is wrong. It is a lie that discrimination will disappear if you don’t do anything. This is because if there are no proper roads then liking in from the surrounding areas they know, “ah, there are no roads there so it must be a Buraku”. It is not only that, but also, “it may be okay for you, but what about the children? The next generation, is it really okay for them? Because you people think like that, these people will be faced with a handicap”. It is the adult’s responsibility. It must be carried out. We persuade in that way, to teach about the fact that doing nothing will not solve any problems, this is necessary to consider. I think that we need to run some lectures on this.

I: Are you doing that then? Are you teaching people about that?

T: Well, it is a difficult thing to get across quickly, because people who do not want to take part do not listen. First we have to go there and talk, there are certainly things that are problems there because they are areas that do not do anything about them. When it rains and the water builds up, or when the snow accumulates and then melts, ordinarily there are drains so that the excess water can flow away, but the water [in these non-Dowa Buraku areas] has nowhere to flow away to so it freezes over and causes many accidents or [other problems]. Fukushima prefecture has those problems. Firstly we have to find out what their biggest problems currently are and then work together to solve them. So by communicating first, we can then slowly build up trust and when we are finally able to communicate we can then start discussing “of course there were problems, and we have been able to solve them, but those are not the only ones. There are other problems that also require action”. So we lecture and then enter the movement together. However, if we were to suddenly say, “excuse me, I’m from the liberation movement, lets get together and do something”, then nobody will listen.

I: It sounds like a difficult problem.

T: Yes, difficult.

I: It seems as if there are a lot of those kinds of people.

T: There are around 4500 Dowa areas and about 2500 (possible transcript error, should be 1500???) areas that are non-Dowa, so there are a lot.

I: What is sanjyû?

T: It is discrimination that occurs within a single ethnic group, when there is no difference in skin colour and no difference in language so you would not otherwise know the difference between them. Because [Burakumin and non-Burakumin] are both Japanese, for some reason [the Burakumin] have the false belief that the [non-Buraku] people will just forget. If they don’t do anything, won’t the problem just go away? But the people surrounding [the Buraku] know that it is obviously a Dowa area. This continues on and on and is passed down because the parents know and they tell their children. They say, in the non-Buraku area, “that is certainly a Buraku”. The is no possibility of [discrimination] just disappearing by itself, that is what I believe.

I: That is written in many books [that I have read].

T: If it could disappear then it would have done so long ago. It has already been hundreds of years. 300 since the Edo period [began].

I: So, what next…

T: This is quite interesting.

I: Okay, is there anything you want to add then?

T: Hmmm, well. This is my personal opinion, where do we go from here? Where does the BLL go now? We are at a very important crossroad. What shall we do?

I: That is what I [am interested in].

T: I think that there is a great variety of opinion amongst people [about these questions], with the question of ending discrimination, having a society without discrimination or ending discrimination. As for the question as to whether or not we can actually do this, I think that it would be very difficult [to achieve]. For example, regarding the discriminatory feelings that a white person may have towards a black person, as to whether or not this will end, I do not believe that it will. I think that due to the existence of different ethnic groups, discrimination will always occur.

It’s because people do that kind of thing.

Even differences in religion cause antagonism and wars so exclusion will never absolutely disappear. In the case of Japan as well, Dowa regions and Buraku that are subjected to discrimination have been around for a long time and now, supposing that the administration stopped doing anything, the Dowa regions, even if the administration governing them disappeared, were around long ago and even now it wouldn’t cause those villages to disappear and I believe that there will [always] be some kind of discrimination occurring [against them] because it won’t cause the people who are living there to go away. So the difference between discrimination that occurs formally, or in the public arena, and that which occurs in the private or non-public instance is, for example in America discriminatory statements made by white politicians against black people certainly do not occur. People are politically correct are they not? There is a definite extent to which there is one’s public face and one’s private opinion. Occasionally there may be a minor incident, and times when they become news, but I believe that because there is that distinction [between private thoughts and public appearance], America is very much an adult society to the extent that even if nobody liked black people, there would be few who would publicly say that they didn’t like them. Not many people at all, truly. Even though Japan is heading in that way, however, it is still not like that. Formally and in government and in public there are still people who say things without considering their formal position [in society]. If you were an adult then you would therefore certainly not make a discriminatory speech at a party. America recognises that as an infringement of the rules of society, but it is not so in Japan. The governor of I____ in Tokyo recently used the word ‘Sangokujin’ without understanding its meaning. In America, however, a politician would certainly not commit that kind of behaviour. They would certainly not use a word that had a meaning that they didn’t properly understand. If it were an adult society then that kind of thing would not happen, like in America, but in Japan people’s hearts have not yet matured [to that level]. They cannot be politically correct. So that is the main reason why I believe that discrimination will not disappear, that people [here in Japan] are not politically correct. Can we protect against the use of words that really should not be used here? I wonder whether or not we can build that kind of society.

To do that we need to create legislation or something like that. I think we also need laws to lock away or punish people who violate [the protection laws] or who behave discourteously, but the first problem that exists ahead of [the need for] legislation is one of somehow getting the consciousness of Japanese people to mature. Mature or grow. In the case of Japan, there is the same sort of discriminatory feeling against Koreans as the feelings of discrimination that are held by white people against black people. There are a great many Japanese who believe that they are superior to Koreans. I think that an adult society is one in which, even if you believe that [kind of thing], you do not say it, even supposing you did think it. Of course that is not an ideal situation, but there is nothing that can really be done about people who believe that. “That’s okay if you believe it, but you are not allowed to say so”. Can we defend that kind of thing? Not yet in Japan, people immediately say what they think.

I: So how do you think you can build that kind of society?

T: Perhaps with time. Right now there are a lot of foreigners who are coming to Japan. This is the first time since the nation of Japan was founded [that we are seeing this kind of] variety and number of foreigners coming here. So I wonder whether or not there will be a solution with time. Maybe. The only question is as to how fast it will happen. In 10 years or in 20? At the pace we have seen up until now, I have a feeling like it may take 50.

I: That kind of think would not be under the jurisdiction of the BLL then would it? Because the problem with time will…

T: The only thing is that everybody’s thinking is mixed up. That’s what I think. Everybody persists in the ideal of ending discrimination, but even so I think that it is very difficult to eliminate. So what should we realistically do then? Should we aim at creating a society where you don’t say what you think? There are still Japanese who use strange words when they see a black person in town, but if you think that you should not use [such words] then you should keep it to yourself. If we could defend against it then maybe we could have a society where people lived without thinking that kind of thing too much.

So actually, with regard to the word ‘Chôsenjin’, that word is not really being used in Japan any more. It is not being said any more. However, with the recent use of the word ‘Sangokujin’ by the governor of I____ in Tokyo in his speech, there are people who did not know the word previously but who are now using it. Discrimination has unfortunately been created anew. The good situation that had taken a lot of effort to work towards has unfortunately been somewhat reversed.

I: Do other people who work for the BLL have the same…

T: I think that there are those people as well. So their objective is the same. The objective here is to end all discrimination, but the goal cannot be instantaneously achieved so [we need to think about] how we can go about getting there, or what direction we should take. People are divided about what road to take to get there though. We are all thinking very hard about that right now. Everyone is debating about the best way to get there.

I: What do you think the future of the BLL is then? It will take time, but if it ended…?

T: If it ended? If discrimination ended then the liberation movement…

I: No, not the discrimination…

T: Oh, related to that then. What can the BLL do?

I: What will become of the BLL now? Up until 1990 it was mostly things to do with the SML, but now that has ended there is now the [problem of confronting] all discrimination. Do you think that it is impossible to resolve?

T: I think that. I think that it is difficult.

I: So because that cannot be resolved, the liberation movement will always continue? Or if it is impossible to resolve then the liberation movement…

T: I think that in order to end it, it is necessary to continue forward with various strategies. In order to end discrimination or to build a society without discrimination [within it].

I: I don’t know if…

T: That’s right. It is a reality that there are people who think that, it really is. So because those people exist, there are people who express it in their actions. And because there are people who express it in their actions it is necessary to create laws as a nation to regulate and control it. In Germany they created laws to do things like punishing the Nazis discrimination. I think that laws like that are also requires in Japan.

I: Are they possible to create?

T: Yes, I think that they can be. That kind of law is different to the SML we have had until now. Those laws provided money to improve Buraku and their environment, but [this law] would instead be intended to educate Japanese people and control [their actions], so the implications of the law would be a little different. So the liberation movement is [heading in that direction] too, I think that we are beginning to aim at all the human rights [issues].

I: If you want to make a law relating to education…I talked a little about that with the liberation movement in Osaka. The Ministry of Education doesn’t really like human rights education so it would be very difficult to enact that law.

T: Yes, difficult. That is why they are discussing it at the Diet, what to do about the law. What they are discussing is whether it would be best to make the law or if it would be better not to. That is the stage [that they are at now]. Once they have cleared that stage then they will discuss about what kind of law to enact. It is possible that a law will be enacted sometime during this year or next year.

I: It will be interesting if they do.

T: Yes, but even if that law is created it will have no meaning unless people uphold it. Also, what will happen with [regard to] the fact that the law must be complied with and the [appropriate] education enacted? The only thing is that if it is created then it will definitely start to have an effect. So I think that things will change.

I: Is the liberation movement being consulted?

T: Yes.

I: Is there anything that you have an interest in [that you want to talk about]?

T: This surprised me. I thought that question was great. What kinds of improvements in physical condition did or didn’t the SML bring about in Buraku areas when compared with the areas outside Buraku? This question I found really interesting.

I: Really?

T: I think that you already understand about what kind of improvements have been brought about from seeing various things in Osaka [yourself]. When compared with old photographs, the towns have really improved a lot. Housing and roads have both been improved. I don’t think that there is much need to explain [about those aspects to you]. However, this is a big point, what has not improved? And what negative [effects] have resulted from improvements? The SML will soon end, it will conclude in March 2002. There have been many people who have come to think what has been said about that so far would eventually work out. In other words, things will eventually be resolved. Of course, the people themselves are making an effort but I think that the number of people who desire something over and above the effort that they themselves are making is increasing.

Everything is made the responsibility of the administration. This is what I personally believe but [people think] that if you ask something of the administration then it will just happen, so they leave it to others [to do]. The number of people who do not do anything and are leaving everything to other people to do is increasing. They are presuming upon [others]. I think that that part has remained. I think that it exists [as a problem].

Hold on a second…

Housing has been improved and so the standard of living has increased across the board, including cultural aspects. So not only the economic parts, but also the cultural. However, despite the vast improvement of the economic situation due to the SML, the cultural situation didn’t increase in the same way. If we say that the economic situation improved to about this level, it was necessary for the cultural part to increase along with it, but it stopped about halfway. For example, if we ask what evidence there is so that we can know that, it is shown in the rates of progression of children through schooling, the school levels. The ability of [Buraku] children to study, when compared with that of other children, is lower. Also the number of people who drop out of school in the middle [of their education] is high. They do not continue.

I: Is that because the parents of those children did not really go to school themselves?

T: I think that is a big part of it. So [the parents] cannot teach their children about what the best way to study is. Studying is of course taught by the school teachers but studying is not only done at school. Children study about both at school and at home. Also, they have opportunities to study when they are playing with their friends as well. They also learn by watching what their parents do. It is true of everything, but the parents are unable to teach this at home. [Buraku] parents are unable to read books to their children or give their children advice when telling them, “please do this now, okay?” because the parents have not had any of that kind of experience. They do not have the ability because the parents themselves did not receive any of that kind of teaching from their own parents. We really needed to be able to offer some support but there were no provisions for that in the laws that we have so far had. To do things like supporting parents. The law has only offered money so it has not been very useful in increasing the cultural levels.

I: So the next law will?

T: I believe that there is a necessity to move ahead and include that. Not only protecting people’s human rights, not only prohibiting discrimination, but also including people’s right to an education. Isn’t it necessary to create administrative policy and services to support people who want to study, but who are unable to do so? We should include that as well. So it is not just handing out money, we have to look at what necessities there are and what problems there are and then offer support. Up until now when the law for the Buraku people produced money, there were major problems in their living conditions and so, for the time being, cultural issues were unimportant regardless of how good or bad they were. The demands for and news regarding the desire for improvements in living conditions were high and so I think people just thought “Oh well, it doesn’t matter [about cultural problems]”. So at last this [living conditions related] part has been resolved, not completely but the level [that was desired] has been reached, and I think that now [the attention] will finally been diverted to cultural issues.

I: Is there a specific Buraku culture?

T: I don’t think that much remains now. It is not like the there was a great difference in lifestyle originally so there is not really any now. There are small differences due to occupation, but I think that there is not really any [separate Buraku culture] now.

I: There is in New Zealand so…

T: Of course, in New Zealand, but that is different. The aboriginal people. Apart from that? Those people are different. In the case of Japan [both Buraku and non-Buraku] have always lived here so there are not any great differences in culture, more or less. Well, but those kinds of differences do not exist.

I: That is what everybody has said so New Zealand…

T: Also, there are a great number of Buraku areas that are subjected to discrimination in Japan but there are also a lot of non-Dowa Buraku that were not designated as Dowa districts by the administration so the biggest problem is what to do about them.

I: That is the biggest problem?

T: Yes, the biggest. So there are places where the liberation movement has formed an organization and is active in combating discrimination and getting everybody to stop discrimination, but there are places that the liberation movement has not reached. In those places, Buraku discrimination is still occurring. It is very prominent. If those places remain then [discrimination] will spread again because discriminatory thinking will remain in people’s ways of thinking. What will we do about the great number of places like that which remain? The living conditions of those places is still very bad. Of course, there are few places now that do not have running water but if you looked at the road conditions then you would see that there are places that are in very bad shape.

Interview Ends

Back Home