Interview with S____, of the Osaka Senior High School Human Rights
Education Research Association: Multicultural Education Study Group.
Conducted on the 28th of July 2000 at the BLHRRI
Headquarters in N____, Osaka.
I - Ian Laidlaw
S – S____
Interview Begins
I: What problems are currently being dealt with in Dowa education, or what
do you see as being the current challenges for Dowa education?
S: The first is that it is necessary for us to educate the other students. By the other students I mean the students who are not from Dowa districts. In order to eradicate the discrimination or the prejudices, it is necessary to approach those other students because they themselves have the prejudices against the students from Dowa districts and the minority students. So this is the challenge that we are now going to tackle.
I: Okay. One thing that I have
read that I found interesting is that there is discrimination coming from the
Buraku side as well. Because there is
discrimination acting against the Buraku students, often the Buraku students discriminate
against the other groups as well. Do
you see that kind of thing happening in schools now, or is it not happening so
much?
S: We believe that there are prejudices amongst the Buraku students because the prejudices or the discrimination is not limited to just Buraku discrimination or the prejudices against the Buraku districts or the people from the Buraku districts. Those who live in the Buraku districts have the prejudices in the field of sexuality and in the field of the prejudices against the Korean people or foreign people and also the people with disabilities. And so discrimination is various even in Dowa district and so we have to approach those discriminations also.
I: So is Dowa education dealing with that as well?
S: Yes, Dowa education is not only taking the discriminations against the Buraku districts or the people from Buraku districts, but it covers more issues including the discriminations against the people with disabilities and foreign people and women and the others, including environmental issues. So Dowa education is a very broad concept which is tackling various education [related] with human rights.
I: How much has Dowa education internationalised now? Do you work with other international human
rights organisations that are dealing with discrimination in other countries? Is Dowa education somehow linking up with
that?
S: As I said before in the first question, Dowa education is now tackling the education towards the other students and other people and in order to do so we would like to study many types of education related to human rights education, so first we would like to study the multicultural education that has been developed in the United States. So ten years ago we started to study the multicultural education and also we would like to have the network of the human rights educators in the Pacific region, Asian countries and the United States. So we have studied many things from Thailand and Cambodia and the Philippines, like this we are now beginning to study more types of education.
I: Since the 50s it seems that much of Dowa education was based on
Soviet or communist philosophy. I
understand that there were strong links with the Japanese Communist Party and
that collectivism was a big part of Dowa education but you seem to be saying
that you are moving on from that now.
How much do you still see that as an influence in Dowa education?
S: In my opinion, there are two trends in the Buraku liberation movement and Dowa education. One is from the Soviet Union and one is from China. In both of those educations collectivism was made much of and in the Soviet Union especially [focussed on] how to make a strong solidarity among the students. We learned those methods. Dowa districts were not well developed compared to other districts. From the beginning of the 1960s Japan started the high economic growth compared with the economic growth in the other districts in all of Japan. Compared with that, that speed, the economy and the environment of the Dowa districts were behind. So these were the villages who could not get the fruit of the high economic growth.
This situation is similar to China, at that time China was very behind from the other developed countries, but China could succeed in changing the society. Soviet at that time saw the natural development, or reasonable development, in Marxist theory, but China was different. But China succeeded in totally changing the structure of society. So some people thought we might make the best use of the method or the theory of that type of development. So, this was adapted in developing the Buraku liberation movement. In my opinion, I think there are two trends in the Buraku liberation movement.
I: Two current trends?
S: Yes. And so, at the same time in modernising Japan, Japanese people tried to make much of individualism in modernising society and it sometimes had the strong connection or the relation with egoism, so those who wanted to criticise egoism or too much individualism, they had sympathy with collectivism. So, those who are involved in Dowa education have had several interests. Some of them have had interests in China, and the others want criticise the Japanese modernisation. So all of those trends are included in the Dowa education movement.
I: And also now that you’re looking into the international community,
is it fair to say that you are being influenced by the United States
multicultural and Pacific region education systems as well?
S: Yes. So in the developing countries in Asian countries, those who are involved in human rights education and human rights movements tried to change their stance before the 1990s. Until the end of the 1980s they also had interest in social revolution, or those methods to achieve the social revolution, but they changed their stance. We had the same kind of change in our movements.
I: I understand that the S____ University is using affirmative action
at the moment.
S: In the entrance examination you mean?
I: Yes. Do you think that
affirmative action should be used more?
S: This is not a direct answer to that question, but I believe that it is necessary that the universities try to have various students who have various philosophies. In this meaning I think that kind of entrance examination is important. That examination can increase the various students in those universities. In Japan, those minority issues are not noticed or recognised among many people, or also among university students and without having a direct relationship with those students, I mean the students who are not from Buraku districts and the students who are from Buraku districts or who have some disabilities physically. By having those relations, the students can develop their own unique ideas, so this is a very good idea, to increase the various students. In this meaning, that kind of entrance examination is important. So this is not the supporting idea of the affirmative action, but that is one of the ways to increase the various students.
I: But, is the BLL pushing for that kind of entrance examination?
S: Our organisation is for that kind of examination, and also the various examinations we would like to support.
I: What methods or activities are currently being used in high school
in Dowa education?
S: Now we are interested in the participatory method and integrated study. The participatory method (sankataikengata-gakushu) was learned from the European experiences. In the beginning we had a one sided lecture style in teaching human rights, but in order to change the attitudes or the values of the students it is necessary that they themselves should notice the importance of human rights and [find] their own ways to develop human rights, or at the same time it is necessary to notice their own human rights issues. Each person has some issues which are related with human rights. They themselves have to notice those things. In order to have that recognition among the students it is necessary for us to have the participatory method, besides the one sided lectures. One sided lectures just give the one idea or the one philosophy or the one attitude to the students. But they themselves cannot tackle their own issues, so in order to have that kind of situation it is necessary for us to adopt the participatory method.
[Break in interview]
In these estate shops it’s easy for us to get that kind of information [about the location of Buraku areas] because the price of the estate [in Buraku areas] is quite different from the price of the other districts. It is lower. An if you go to that district then you can find the [Buraku] Liberation Center, so you can easily find that that place is a Dowa district, but it is difficult for us to find out the boarders of the districts, so sometimes people buy estate inside the Dowa district and they complain against the estate shop. We have that kind or quarrel.
I: How do they find out whether or not somebody is from a Buraku area
if they cannot consult the koseki and they do not have access to the
Buraku chimei sokan?
S: We cannot distinguish the people themselves, who is from a Buraku district and who is not from a Buraku district, so companies try to investigate through those investigative companies. In order to find out what places are the Buraku districts, it’s easy because in Osaka or other big cities the Buraku liberation movements have developed so that in each district we have some special centres, the youth center or the liberation center or something like that.
I: So it makes it quite visible that it is a Buraku district.
S: Yes. So the Buraku Liberation Movement wants to welcome many people from the other districts because in those districts, the fundamental equipment as a town is very good because the road is not so bad compared with the other districts. Also there are the public parks and there is the community. By the term community I mean that the people try to cooperate with each other. And there are the leaders to combine the community citizens. So it’s easy for people to live in those districts. So Buraku liberation movements try to develop their districts and by so doing they want to welcome the other people. So this is a good way. Anyway, those Dowa districts can be distinguished easily by finding those centers. But the boarder is very hard to find.
[Break in interview]
The civic educations and the political educations have not been made much of, but the Dowa education tried to make much of that. So this is one of the styles to combine the political education and economic education. In order to know more about their own community they have to talk with some civil servants in the ward office or the city office, they can get many pieces of education and it’s a kind of economic education. Also, they have to do something for their own communities, for example they discuss the situation in their own communities and they make requests to the city office or to the ward office. They make the request sheet and they give those sheets to ward office or the city office.
I: The students do?
S: Yes, that is done by the students and the city office or the ward office give the answers to the students. By so doing, they can have very good experiences in changing and developing their own communities.
I: It’s very interactive.
S: Yes.
I: Do you find that there is much support from the local and national Government
of Dowa education, and if so do they actively support it or is it more passive
where if you approach them then they will help out? Also, has the Ministry of Education published any texts for Dowa
education yet?
S: They haven’t [published any Dowa education texts]. Concerning the national support, I think that at present the Ministry of Education do not give positive support to Dowa education or human rights education. They make much of the Japanese ethics [but] they try not to use the human rights education. They try to use the ethics or dotoku [morals / morality].
I: Why do you think they are doing that?
S: Human rights education is activating the people in Japan. If many people notice their own rights, rights means the relationship between individual rights and the state itself. The state has very strong power and the individuals on their own have strong power but they try to control the power of the state, this is human rights. What kind of connections are there between the individuals and the state. If the people in general or the individuals are empowered by human rights education, they give some requests or they give various questions, that is not so easy for the state to control, so they try to give them the situation to study ethics. Ethics is just the relationships with individuals, not the connection with the state.
I: So are they actively trying to stop human education study at all, or
are they just promoting ethics and hoping that human rights education won’t
happen.
S: Explicitly, the state and the Ministry of Education use the term ‘human rights education’ and they have organised a human rights study group after having the agreement of the human rights. Now it is the UN decade of human rights and there is some special group for promoting that UN decade. Explicitly they do something like that, but in reality they do not have some special laws to develop or promote human rights.
I: In December 1996 there was the Law for the Promotion of Measures for
Human Rights Protection passed and that law required human rights legislation
to be passed within two years, so by December of 1998 there should have been
human rights laws passed. Do you know
if there were any passed or not?
S: Concerning education in schools and the social education, they made a report about that, but they did not create any laws. But people should recognise the importance of human rights, this is the contents of that report. So, if those who get damaged by bullying, prejudices or discrimination, those people cannot get enough support from the schools or the teachers. This kind of system should be necessary, we need that kind of system. Also, the system to backup the development of the human rights education, but in that report they don’t say that, so that’s a problem.
I: Is that a Ministry of Education report?
S: It’s the [1999 report of the] Jinken Yogo Shisaku Suishin Shingikai [Commission of Inquiry into the Consideration and Promotion of Human Rights Protection]. There are various criticisms against that report, many criticisms are from all over Japan, but they do not change the contents of that report.
[Break in interview]
Anyway, the electric devices in the Buraku families are more than the other families in the other districts. This means that they were very poor before the beginning of the Buraku liberation movement but after the beginning of the Buraku liberation movement, the economic support they could get from some public services or something like that, and also some of them can enter mainstream society in where the strong competition is going on. Now they can compete with the other people after having some special support from the Government. They try to buy many electric devices for their children because they could not enjoy those electric devices. But these electric devices give some hindrance for the children to have the chances to study. We know that if they just watch TV, they cannot develop their thinking ability. By so doing, now the sub-cultures of the Buraku families are made much of. We have to reform the cultures in those families, or the values of those families. This is one of the hindrances which does not give good support to the children to achieve high academic ability.
I: Somebody said recently that schools for the disabled are now being
set up and that the disabled are being sent to those schools. Is it true that they are being forced to go
to these schools and that they cannot enter mainstream schools? And if they are being forced into these
schools, do you see it as being a positive or a negative step?
S: Firstly, the Japanese senior high schools are not compulsory [to attend], they have entrance examinations. Some people with disabilities cannot be given the chance to take those entrance examinations in Japan. For example, the education board make just one type of entrance examination. If they are blind, they cannot write down, and some of them cannot hear but the teachers just give the average directions to the students who are taking the entrance examinations. Those who cannot hear cannot understand what they say. Like this, some of the students with disabilities cannot enter the senior high schools. This is the history of Japan. That is one of the big reasons that until recently, students with disabilities could not enter senior high schools so they are forced to go to the special schools for them. But recently, especially in Osaka and the Kinki area, they have changed, reformed, the entrance examinations so those who have the disabilities, they can take various types of examinations, so the number of people who enter senior high school is increasing.
Also, those who have the mental disabilities cannot enter the senior high schools. In the United States, all of the students who have mental disabilities can enter senior high schools even if some of them are studying in special classes. But in Japan those students cannot enter the senior highs because of the entrance examinations. But recently in a few senior high schools, as I said before, some schools are not popular, even in giving the entrance examinations the percentage of students is not full, so some students who have mental disabilities can enter even if their score is zero, now they can enter. But until recently those students who have mental disabilities who got zero score cannot enter those schools, but recently we have changed. If you have the space for students, they have to admit the students who have mental disabilities to enter their schools. Like this, the number of people with disabilities who are entering senior high schools is increasing. This is a positive trend I believe, but at the same time for those disabled students who we have to give some special education this is true. In order to make some special text books for them, or some special devices are necessary, but in each school it is difficult to equip those special devices because of the budgetary problems. So now we are thinking about how to cope with this problem.
I: But it’s progressing?
S: Yes. In all of Japan, this is the case of the Kinki area and especially in Osaka, in some prefectures even now the entrance examinations are the old type ones, so there is a problem.
I: Do you still get Government financial aid for Dowa education?
S: The local government give some special aid.
I: For Dowa education?
S: Not Dowa education, but under the name of the human rights education. Until 2002, in order to complete the special laws for Dowa they give some special aid for Dowa education and Dowa issues.
I: So what happens after 2002?
S: After that some prefectures try to equip some special prefectural regulations to develop the human rights education. So by making the best use of them, some issues can get some support from the local governments.
I: I was talking with T____-san yesterday about Buraku culture, and we
were talking about whether or not there would be a risk in the future as Buraku
discrimination disappears that Buraku people would disappear and integrate into
Japanese society. Do you think that
Buraku culture is a separate culture from Japanese culture in some ways and if
so are you dealing with that in Dowa education?
S: This is a very difficult question. In my opinion, in order to keep a certain culture, it is necessary to have several elements. One of the elements is the similarity of the skin or the race or the language or the job. So, if Buraku communities have a certain special job, like meat processing or making shoes or making Japanese drums, those districts may keep their own culture because those districts have the core to keep those people living in the same community. They work in their communities and live with the other community people, so this gives some strong connections among those community people in Buraku districts. But, in the other districts which do not have some special jobs or some production, I think it’s difficult to keep the Buraku culture.
I: Would you regret the loss of that culture, or do you think that is
just a natural part of fighting discrimination? If it results in equality in the end, but you loose the culture,
do you think that is a negative thing that that culture will be lost, or is
that not something that is being taken into consideration?
S: The people living in the Buraku districts are the same as the people living in the other districts, so that is different from the Ainu people and the people living in Okinawa because the races are different. In the field of the Buraku issue I think it’s not so bad even if those people are integrated into the mainstream. I think in Japan, local governments or communities do not have strong power. Local cultures or community cultures are not made so much of in Japan. So, we have too much national centred culture. So in order to change this we can make the best use of the Dowa communities. In this meaning each community should have their own festivals or identities, this is important. Even if some Dowa districts are integrated into the mainstream, I don’t think it is a big problem.
I: So you are saying that it is more of a localised culture, per
district rather than Buraku people as a whole.
S: Yes. One thing, the methods or the ideals or the philosophy of the Buraku liberation movements, this is a very important thing for Japanese people when we think about human rights education or human rights movements within Japan. So we have to study much more about that, this is my opinion. This is a kind of a good tradition of Japanese people and Japanese democratic movements. In this meaning we have to study Buraku liberation movements.
Interview Ends