p a n d e m o n i u m
  Tuesday Evening International AOL Chat
                             Carl (Teaneck, USA),

                            Iris (Freiburg),

                         Khalid (Toronto),

                      Franz (Merida, Venezuela).

     Orwell Today: Personal Life Experiences -
                            Franz - Part IV: 1962 - 1977
              (This Chat I dedicate to my son, Franz Lee, Jr.)

24th October, 2000                          (Slightly Corrected Version)



                             Part   Three
           FRANZ:   1977 - 1979

DISCUSSION  PERIOD (Continued)
         (Extracts)



              Final   Part

panta98 has left the room.

CarlzimC: Jerusalem Post?
CarlzimC: Who owns Arabia.com?
Einai2000: Please proceed ... invited Franz. ...
frogmobile: There is never a favorable opinon of Arabs or Palestinans here.
frogmobile: I don't know probably a wealthy, oil sheik.
CarlzimC: Surprising. There's a large Palestinian Community in Canada?
frogmobile: No very small, about 150 thousand. They are not allowed to immigrate here.
CarlzimC: I'll save the chat.
frogmobile: nobody wants them.
frogmobile: they are all deemed as terrorists.
frogmobile: and killers
CarlzimC: Surprising. Not in the USA
frogmobile: Not many in the US either
CarlzimC: They are welcome here.
frogmobile: There are millions without a home.
CarlzimC: Khalid, they'll have a home.
frogmobile: I hope so, Carl.
Einai2000: ...to get back to "revolution"....Khalid, what did you learn from your experiences in Guyana?
frogmobile: That it is not worth it, Iris.
Einai2000: Why not???
frogmobile: The people are not worth the energy to fight for; they eventually betray and kill you.
CarlzimC: Khalid, behind the scenes.
frogmobile: I have seen it with very close comrades that lost their lives sadly.
Einai2000: But weren"t they revolutionaries, Khalid? For example, all the masses, following the speeches of Walter Rodney?
CarlzimC: Negotiations - software technology.
frogmobile: Rodney was not the only one; there were many more, and what is sad is to see how they
died, and how much they believed in the cause!
CarlzimC:  Paul Robeson - exiled and ostracized.
CarlzimC: I knew Paul and was influenced by him. His son, Paul Robeson Jr., married my cousin.
Einai2000: Khalid in what precisely did they believe?
frogmobile: One thing that struck me at Rodney's funeral was the "silence". I got an ominious feeling then
that it was over. The people were too bruised and felt that they had no power because the enemy is
always two steps ahead of them ready to exploit their weakness.
CarlzimC: Khalid, they were thinking of #1.
frogmobile: And remember in a revolutionary movement there are always so many weaknesses - you can
trust no one.
CarlzimC: They never would have supported his revolution.
Einai2000: And now - with all due respect - do you think they applied in their "personal life" what they
fought for on a political level? And what could be the reason why they couldn"t go ahead when the
"leader" died?
CarlzimC: If he lived, would they have supported him?
Einai2000: That's the problem, Khalid - the everlasting question whom to trust ...
frogmobile: Interesting question Iris. When a leader is killed, in such a brutal fashion, it sends a chilling
message out there: to back off. For example, it has happened just like that in the Congo, also in Venezuela.
frogmobile: And in many other places in the world.
CarlzimC: Iris, like Lumumba, Che Guevara and Malcolm X, Rodney was betrayed by people in his own organization.
frogmobile: The "top" guys around Rodney were genuine and dedicated people but they were not
"revolutionaries" and had no experience; remember the enemy is always ahead of you.
CarlzimC: Agreed, Khalid. I'm referring to little guys, the common folk, the rank and file.
Einai2000: Do you think what has been fought for on a political level was reflected and manifested also in
 daily life, or had "the fight for freedom" nothing to do with it?
Einai2000: If not, why?
Einai2000: Is it probably more "easy" to fight against something "out there"?
frogmobile: Iris, in terms of whether they applied what they fought for in their personal lives, the answer is yes, but they suffered a lot. I too, because you live in eternal fear that you will be caught and get killed
too - remember you have NO POWER.
frogmobile: Their families were all at risk. I put mine in trouble too, without them knowing it.
CarlzimC: Khalid, also you had a paranoid enemy.
frogmobile: No, Iris, it took guts to stand up and face the blows from street thugs.You had to have a lot of
conviction.
CarlzimC: Similar to the Communist countries.
Einai2000: I imagine, Khalid.
frogmobile: They were both inter-related on the one hand . Agreed, Carl.
Einai2000: ...and on the other?
frogmobile: I ran many times from guns and knives. That is why I was known as "Speedy Gonzalez."
CarlzimC: Were you running from sadists, who used politics as an excuse?
frogmobile: You can't seperate the two from each other, Iris. At least I can speak for the people who died
and for those that "jumped ship". I can undrestand their reasons too, why they give up.
Einai2000: Yes, Khalid, of course. I agree.
frogmobile: One needs to understand that Guyanese have always been politically active, ...
Einai2000: ...please explain to us, Khalid...
frogmobile: ... but they have never suceeded because of oppresion and poverty.
frogmobile: They have being fighting against colonial rule since the 1930's.
Einai2000: ...invited Franz, he's back online.
CarlzimC: Thanks, Iris. I sent an e-mail to Franz.
    .........
panta98 has entered the room.
You have just entered room "panta98 Chat09."
Einai2000:Franz. Welcome back.
frogmobile:The people have all been "products", been under British slaver rule. Our very existence as a people came from murder, kidnap, torure and slavery.
CarlzimC:Hi, Franz.
frogmobile:We were always taught to "obey law and order".
panta98:Sorry, I had a power cut, had to reboot! Carl, I received your e-mail.
panta98:] Also, AOL dilly-dallied to get me back on the server again.
CarlzimC:Khalid, and French and Dutch oppression?
frogmobile:Yep!
CarlzimC: Devil's Island.
panta98:Anyhow, where are you? How far did you develop he topic?
frogmobile: My great grand parents were kidnapped from India and taken to labor for the British Empire.
panta98: I follow, entering into the picture  ....
frogmobile: We  are a "bruised" people too.
CarlzimC:Yep, Khalid.
CarlzimC:Sometimes, the dividing line been oppressor and revolutionary is very thin.
frogmobile:Most of the people in the British Colonial Empire suffered tremendously and are still feeling the after-effects. Some are calling for financial compensation but to no avail.
panta98: I'm listening, ....
frogmobile:Rodney's book is great to read about Africa's contribution to European development, to world capitalism, to American globalization.
CarlzimC: Enver Hoxha, premier of Communist Albania, tried to eliminate thr concept of "3 worlds" in the UN. He thought the "3rd world" label demeaned the people of Africa, Asia and Latin America.
frogmobile:Yet! today we "third world" people are deemed "barbaric", stupid" and "dumb", because we have nothing  else anymore to contribute, other than cheap physical labor, whose demand is dropping steadily.
CarlzimC:Although Hoxha had the support of tyhe Albanian Clans (mostly Turkish origin), he failed in this pursuit.
CarlzimC:Khalid, Hoxha fought vs. this!
frogmobile:So many people have suffered from mass exploitation, yet they can't understand what psychological and physical impact it has had on their ability to fight back.
frogmobile:Interesting Carl
CarlzimC:Guys, I suggest you read Hoxha's texts on the web. A lot is Stalinist crap, but a lot is OK
frogmobile:Sure Carl
CarlzimC:The US Bill, HR 3048 is an attempt to legislate Fascism in the USA
frogmobile:The British passed a similar Bill today too
Einai2000:Yes, truly so, Khalid - and they never were supposed to "understand" anything anyway, they never were supposed to think by their own...
frogmobile:Exactly Iris. even here in Canada, they look at "us" as a bunch of barbaric backward jombies, here to "steal opportunities" from the main stream Canadians.
Einai2000:...listening, please proceed...
panta98: Excellent, Carl & Khalid. Carl, not wanting to break your discussion, but, before we finish today, I would like to hear your opinion about the latest US Bill, H.R. 3048!
panta98:It would allow law enforcement to obtain any kind of document it wants, without first getting a search warrant or a subpoena from a court These documents include any written or electronic .... document possessed by an individual or, ...
panta98: ... more frighteningly, any document held by a third party (such as bank records, credit card records, telephone records, school records or an Internet Service Provider's customer records).
CarlzimC:This Bill = Big Brother.
CarlzimC: without a military coup, without APC's in the streets.
CarlzimC:The KGB would be proud.
panta98:The bill would gut the Fourth Amendment requirement that private documents should be searched only after a court issues a warrant based upon probable cause.
CarlzimC:Franz, next they will knock on our doors.
CarlzimC:The KGB would be proud.
panta98: Yes, Carl. The Gestapo, the Storm Troops, at midnight. What amazes me is the following:
frogmobile:They are already doing it in other subtle ways, guys.
panta98:Even worse, this bill could allow information to be obtained without your knowledge. In other words, the government could seize your bank records, Internet records or other documents from third parties and you might not ever know.
CarlzimC: I would hire Markus Wolf to implement this program. I heard he's looking for a job.
panta98:So, now, I'm getting scared of the Internet!!!
Einai2000:...well, let them seize my bank records, nothing to be seen there anyway .,..
CarlzimC:The Internet cannot be controlled.
frogmobile: No it cannot.
panta98: But, here we see Big Brother operating in front of our eyes!
CarlzimC: They can seize my ____
Einai2000: Truly so, Franz.
Einai2000: Carl :-)
panta98: That there are more subtle ways, that it has been done since Pericles, that is not the issue.
frogmobile:Why should we worry? Make my day!
panta98:The issue is what the USA -- not the Illuminati -- has in mind! For example, why Khalid won't get a permanent job in a million years! Why all who think "otherwise" would perish, rotting in the dungeons, or dying due to malnutrition, or genetically engineered "toxic" foodstuffs.
CarlzimC:Total dictatorship, Franz.
panta98:They make a law, open, and clear, and millions remain as blind as bats.
Einai2000:Yes, Franz - now overtly...
frogmobile: Probably, I'll have to, because I have a "Muslim" name.
CarlzimC: But they won't succeed because they're divided.
panta98: Here naked Fascism and Nazism are being displayed, and we live in Make Believe Land.
frogmobile: Guys, I must go to do my exercises before the night is over.
frogmobile: It was a pleasure to chat.
panta98: Are you getting scared of Big Brother now?
frogmobile: Nope! Never man!
Einai2000: Okay, Khalid, it was a pleasure. See you next Tuesday!
panta98: Well, then sleep tight, don't let the Illuminati fleas bite!
CarlzimC: Khalid, you'd have the same situation if you had a Jewish or any non-Anglo-Saxon name. like Franz's.
frogmobile:My laptop is also very "hot" I feel the heat on my left hand.
frogmobile:True.
CarlzimC: HAARP acting on your laptop?
frogmobile: It's scary, I fear radation.
frogmobile: Cancer, man.
CarlzimC: Common with laptops.
panta98: Carl, well, Franz is OK, it's Aryan-Illuminati; Lee is british, but it has "Chinese, Korean" bad taste! Iris, I "hope" that you saved everything. Please just send me the part, where I was thrown offline.
frogmobile: Yes, and I think it is dangerous.
Einai2000:I saved everything, Franz.
frogmobile: Goodnight, folks!
frogmobile: Bye, bye..............!
panta98: Good Night, Guy!
Einai2000: Buenas noches, Khalid.
frogmobile has left the room.
panta98: We'll also make a stop here.
panta98:Carl, but before we go, a word on that bill!
Einai2000: Please, Carl.
CarlzimC: Bye, Khalid.
panta98: Is it just an attempt to legislate fascism in the USA, or is the whole US State already crypto-fascist?
panta98: Why such a law now? Is the USA threatened from inside?
CarlzimC: An attempt to legislate fascism, as it has no limitations.
CarlzimC: The Smith Act has limitations.
CarlzimC: The USA needs it for global control.
panta98: Perhaps I under-estimated the internal strife, the level of internal resistance, the activities of "hornet" intellectuals and scientists.
CarlzimC: Now USA = NWP.
panta98: Well, that's Hitlerite, Stalinist, Mussolinite!
CarlzimC: And the divisions in the power elite.
CarlzimC:Yep, Franz.
panta98:That's fascism, world conquest, Fourth Reich!! It indicates that fascism during the first half of the 20th century was not an accident, that inherently the world capitalist system -- with or without Illuminati - is essentially authoritarian, exploitative, dominant, discriminatory and alienating.
CarlzimC:Ultimately, we may have a military coup, headed by General Feelgood!
CarlzimC: Fascism with a smiley face!
panta98: Not that I'm amazed, not that I don't know it, but I'm surprized how fast the Orwellian octopus grows, globalizes itself, how it grabs everything already.
CarlzimC: APC's in the streets in the USA.
CarlzimC: Israel is a testing ground.
panta98: Yes.
Einai2000: Terrible...
panta98: Yes, I don't like what is brewing in the Middle East, from the standpoint of this growing globalized fascism.
Einai2000:Please explain a little further for me, Franz?
panta98:This time, not the Jews, but the Arabs will have to believe in it, who knows, even both of them!
CarlzimC:Visit the opposition in the Israeli and Palestinian sites. I posted above on this transcript.
panta98: I will, Carl. Only I was offline. Later, having the full ms., I'll check it out.
Einai2000:Yes, I'll do so, Carl. Thank you for the information.
panta98: However, Iris, coming back to your question.
panta98: Obviously, the current world population has to be reduced, not because of their threatening numbers, but because the world fascist system has no use for them anymore.
Einai2000: Yes..
CarlzimC: Both, Arabs and Jews, Franz.
panta98:To let them die out slowly, let them disappear unnoticed, by secretly sterilizing them, this would take too long.
panta98: Urgently, the system has to reconstruct, re-organize itself on a global and galactic scale.
CarlzimC: But there is division among the global elite and resistance.
panta98:Both global elite and the resistance have the same problem. Also both are subject to the dynamics of the New World Order: Towards the Coming Home of Hegel's World Spirit, to Absolute Rest, to Rest In Peace, to DEATH.  Don't you see the "PEACE TALKS"!
panta98:There is no going back. Read your Hegel, everything is explained there in the minutest details; he is the greatest "Prophet" of all soothsayers of this world system, of history, of the labour process. The only problem is, that in the meantime, probably, only half-a-dozen of people on this globe can really still really read and understand Hegel in all his levels, degrees, mensions and spheres!
Einai2000:...please proceed....
panta98:The global system has its own destructive dynamics.
CarlzimC: How would you reorganize the global system?
panta98: Even just to stop it, to try to turn the wheels of history back, would mean imminent global suicide.
panta98: Just think about the necessary giga-technology necessary to stop the coming holocaust, to somehow curb all the rotten atomic plants on a world scale. To have an infinitesimal chance of survival,
the whole damn capitalist process would have to be stopped instantaneously, and all efforts should be launched in full force, 48 hours a day, involving the totality of mankind, against certain doom.
panta98: Homo sapiens sapiens is travelling on the same road as his predecessors and contemporaries, Homo Neanderthal, Homo Kenyapithecus, etc. He didn't even last for a miserbale 200 000 years! The system has set loose underground spectres and forces which it itself cannot stop anymore.
panta98:So, the resistance, the internal strife, all that is much too late, a few drops of water on a huge erupting volcano.
panta98:For obvious reasons, we see an economic monopolisation, a merging, at top speed, faster than
light, than ever before.
panta98:This is just the material, the basic sign, of what will follow politically very soon. One morning we'll wake up like the Russians a little while ago, to discover that overnight the United States of America itself has disappeared from the Cosmos!
CarlzimC has left the room.
Einai2000:That is, the so called current Middle East Crisis could be one of the means to accomplish this "task" - similar to the "ethnic" conflicts sown by divide et impera in Africa ...
Einai2000: Thank you, Franz for explaining - but what happend with Carl?
Einai2000: Reinvited Carl.
CarlzimC has entered the room.
Einai2000:Welcome back, Carl.
CarlzimC:Hi, folks
panta98: Not the election campaign in the USA, not whether it would be Bush or Gore, is the issue. The stark reality is simply that the capitalist system had its heyday. The current political show, the political carnival, has no universal relevance.
panta98: The accumulation process of Moloch, Baal and Pluto was a nightmare, a horror, now just imagine its nadir, its death agony - and we live in the beginning of its end, and in the end of its beginning.
CarlzimC:What will replace it?
panta98:This is what we are experiencing now -- economically the decline, the unification, the one-ifiedness is already nearly complete.
panta98:What will happen to the driving force of the system - competition? It will compete with itself as One, devouring its very stinking tale. It is already imploding, who has still eyes to look, please see!
panta98: tail.
CarlzimC:Tale = tail
CarlzimC:How will it end?
panta98: It is not replaceable. It is uni-que. It has destroyed all its own possibilities, it is simply non-replaceable.
panta98:What will be, will exist, is that what in any case is or exists, independent of capitalism.
panta98:Capitalism is not the centre of history, is not the point of reference of history, of the Cosmos of Cosmoses. Also "Man" is not the Alpha and Omega of Essence, Existence and Transcendence! He is just an infinitesimal ...-hole in a Black-Hole!
panta98: How will it end? It ended already, Carl.
CarlzimC: Agreed, Franz. The creative artists, writers, musicians, educators, scientists, etc. may form a global renaissance.
CarlzimC: Consistent with Karl Marx and H .G.Welles.
panta98:Yes, it's about time that we analyse and see other things and beings around us, who have nothing to do with capitalism or fascism. This NWO can only perish in an ex-birth, an Exnaissance!
panta98:It would be a great "honour" to have laboured for fascism, to discover that, that was it, the one and only.
panta98:That is what education made us to believe for millennia.
Einai2000:Truly so, Franz. I suggest that we stop here, what do you think Carl and Franz?
panta98:I never was a capitalist, never a fascist, so how on earth do I belong to capitalism? That it exploits me, that's another story. Mount Everest is also not capitalist or fascist, and it is being exploited by tourism.
panta98: Yes, I'm also very tired.
CarlzimC: Agreed, Iris. Franz, let's continue next week.
CarlzimC: Great chat, tonight.
panta98:OK, next week, 1979 - today!
panta98:Good Night, Carl.
Einai2000: As always, it was a great pleasure - thank you, Franz, for the introduction. I'm looking forward to next Tuesday.
panta98: Greet Fran from Jutta and Me!!!
CarlzimC:Gute Nacht. Fran sends her regards.
Einai2000:Buenas noches, Carl & Franz! Regards to Fran, Carl.
CarlzimC:Regards to Jutta.
panta98:Thanks, Carl.
panta98:Bye!

CarlzimC has left the room.


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