Space, Time, Labour, Emancipation III
                              What Produced Labour & Alienation?
 

30th January, 2001                              (Carefully Corrected & Extended Version)

WELCOME ....

You have just entered room "panta98 Chat13."
CarlzimC has entered the room.
naranjahit has entered the room.
juttaschmi has entered the room.
panta98:Hi! All!! "Good" Evening!!
naranjahit:hello Jutta!!!! Franz!!!!!
CarlzimC:Hi, Franz, Jutta, Stella
naranjahit:HI Carl!
juttaschmi:Hi Carl, Stella, Franz. Nice to see you all.
panta98:Please save the chat!
juttaschmi:We will, Franz.
CarlzimC:I will.
 

THE COSMIC-ONTIC DRAMA UNFOLDS ....

panta98:Jutta and I will comment on some points, raised during our previous chat.
juttaschmi:I understand, that none of us has a real introduction for tonight's chat "in petto".
panta98:Any special comment, Jutta?
naranjahit:I don't have..
juttaschmi:Also, unfortunately, Iris cannot join us tonight, to ask her special questions. ;-)
juttaschmi:Stella, whatever question you may have during the chat or dating back to other chats, please don't hesitate to ask.
panta98:Well, then, I have to ask you whether you read our last dialogue?
naranjahit:yes, I know
panta98:There Prof. Coseino made a very interesting statement, with reference to time.
juttaschmi:It is difficult to start with a specific comment, Franz. I just was thinking about the implications of what we are trying to debate and establish with regard to the concepts of space and time.
naranjahit:I did not have the "time"
juttaschmi:There Stella has given a specific clue with regard to the concept of time: we never have enough of it!
panta98:Animals that still are by their "full senses" can break the barrier of "time", "knowing" things ahead of "time". Any comments?
juttaschmi:And also space, in its specific aspect of "distance", is hitting us hard these days, too. Not so, Stella?
naranjahit:is there "time" for them, I don't think so
naranjahit:indeed Jutta!!!!
panta98:That's the point, Stella!
naranjahit:yes, you said it in another chat.
juttaschmi:It is so unusual to debate beyond the known (labour-) parameters of space and time, Franz. Which also affects a whole series of other parameters.
CarlzimC:Humans can also do this. On Sunday, Fran & I forgot our watches and we knew when to attend the play at 3 PM in New York City.
panta98:Carl, you and Fran are "historians" already living in emancipatory parameters.
juttaschmi:The puzzling thing is, that not only we are trying to go beyond those parameters, Franz and Carl and Stella. Carl, you and Fran are already in "transcendental mode"!
CarlzimC:Thanks, Jutta. Even the building blocks of matter have a sense of time and space
panta98:It is a matter of "communication" of relating beyond "space and time", beyond Labour parameters.
panta98:Jutta and I had many such a transcendental experience.
CarlzimC:Makes sense, Franz
juttaschmi:Physicists and Astronomers are trying to describe, how the universe "looked like" "before" coming into being, that is, "before" the "big bang". They have immense difficulties to formulate anything, as they themselves are aware of the limits of space and time parameters within their own cosmovision.
panta98:When she was still flying, she used to give me the wrong hotel number in Colombia and Turkey, when she reached the respective hotels, my message was already awaiting her there.
juttaschmi:They have to debate something, that falls completely out of the range of the known parameters, and they face similar difficulties, than we do.
naranjahit:And what do they say about this "state of before"?
CarlzimC:I have had similar experiences. My maternal grandmother (1/2 Albanian) taught me how to do this.
juttaschmi:How do you describe the world and science of the labour process without space parameters - extension, outside - inside, distance, or before, after, etc., etc.?
juttaschmi:time parameters, the latter ones.
CarlzimC:No state of before - always was - is.
panta98:Worse even, 10 000 miles apart, at the same "time" we picked up the same book of Bloch, read the same pages, and then told each other by "letter" what we read. In fact, this was unnecessary! We could have communicated otherwise, if our cosmic "animal", "plant", "bird" and "insect" Internet was not so dusty, so rusty!
juttaschmi:Within the labour process, efforts have been made, to describe things differently than in space and time parameters, and a substitute parameter seems to be "chaos".
CarlzimC:It may be easier to communicate telepathically using graphic symbols.
juttaschmi:Each and everything that cannot be orderly put into place and time, is described as "Chaos", "Accident", Unpredictability, etc.
panta98:Now, what is "intension", "extension", "transcension" all about? How do they INCLUDE and EXCEL Labour Motion, Space and Time parameters? Anybody has an idea??
juttaschmi:No problem with graphic symbols, Carl :-)
panta98:Graphic symbols? Perhaps a "Blue Angel", Carl? Marlene Dietrich?
naranjahit: This Triagory was always a problem to me, I never understood it, Franz, please explain.
naranjahit: Intension - what is it?
juttaschmi:Chaos, as they call it, could well correspond to our concept of Nothing, Franz. To them, Chaos is all about a whole series of unknown relations, unpredictable and sort of "senseless" to them.
CarlzimC: Intension, extension, transcension = a  3-step process to transcend space and time of labour
panta98: Yes Jutta -- partially it corresponds, but, like us,  it does not postulate zillions of principles, in zillions of relations. The basics is that the One, the One Principle, has to be transcended. It is only one, single Cosmic, Acting, Scientific Sphere.
CarlzimC:Chaos is a misnomer - refers to complex, orderly patterns.
juttaschmi:Intension - intensive: "relations" betweeen the two sides of the same thing. Extension - extensive: relations that include the relations between two sides of the same thing, yet also include relations towards something else, what we call the second postulate.
panta98: Carl, you see what I mean. We have to think, to exist, to relate our ontic capacities.
juttaschmi:Fully agreed on your explanation of Chaos, Carl! Excellent specification!
panta98:To do this, we have to extend, go "outside", re-produce externally, re-create something DIFFERENT; hence, we have to THINK!! Of course, "re-produce' and "re-create" are just auxiliary concepts.
panta98:With a single postulate, Spirit or Matter, it is not possible to THINK, to EXIST.
CarlzimC:The One Principle is consistent with new experiments which show that the building blocks of life came from outer space.
panta98: Carl, it takes TWO to tango the ONTIC drama.
panta98:Of course, Thinking exists as Acting  a n d Thinking about this Action. Hence, Acting
a n d Thinking! Praxis  a n d  Theory! Take note; Praxis is not Work, is not Physical Labour; also Theory does not exist as Intellectual Labour. .
CarlzimC:Good point, Franz
juttaschmi:"Outer space" is everywhere, including earth, Carl. Earth is "outer space" with regard to other points of the universe. So the building blocks of life are "everywhere" in the universe.
juttaschmi:Stella, are you in outer space now? ;-)
panta98: Proceeding ... This is within the Diagory (parameters) of Intensity  a n d  Extensity. Or of Intension   a n d   Extension, which depicts another form of Existence. So far, capito, Stella?
naranjahit:ok
juttaschmi:There! She's back! (Teasing you a little)
CarlzimC:Agreed, Jutta. I'm using "outer space" as semantics, as people easily relate to it
naranjahit: Hey Jutta, I need to beam up my English,  I know....
panta98:But, we are not only acting beings, and we do not exist only as thinking existences, we excel also as NEITHER the One NOR the Two! As the Three = dancing the Three-Step, the Emancipatory Waltz! Three includes One, Two, and Itself!!
juttaschmi:Carl - I understand. Stella: don't you worry abouut your English, please. It is nice to have you here. No problem if you just want to listen.
CarlzimC:The space bubbles form cell membranes - let substances pass in and out.
panta98: Stella, this is not an English class, and we don't need to prove to anybody what excellent linguists we are. The words are only the "symbols" of which Carl spoke, We have to THINK with our "brains"; English words are just inefficient tools! Proceeding ... In fact, we at this MENSION have to do the QUICK-STEP, and not the Labour "Fox Trot"!
juttaschmi:Correctly so, Carl, one of the "simple principles" of life.
CarlzimC:Stella, we are all learning. I'm learning some German here.
juttaschmi:Franz, I am not that ready for the quickstep yet. I am a hopeless Slow-Burn..
panta98: And, I am learning to break the Space-Time Barrier!!
juttaschmi:I am learning with each and every chat, Carl and Stella.
naranjahit: That is nice, Carl!
juttaschmi:Franz is our top-speed barrier breaker.
CarlzimC:My Father was of German descent, but he spoke only English to be an all-American boy
juttaschmi:I have barriers in my brains, Franz. Trying to pull myself out like the Baron of Münchhausen did ...
panta98: Yes, I am an ice-breaker, too much frozen "minds" around. Why is it so difficult to transcend the normal "space and time" relations, the normal "laws of motion"? Why are we so "law-abiding"?
naranjahit: same here Jutta.
CarlzimC:Franz, build a flying saucer and fly at speeds of 12,000 mph. Get the plans from Bill.
naranjahit: Franz, simply because we learned to put "transcending" on the "ignore-list".
juttaschmi:Franz, this is difficult, because these are the patterns of thinking within the labour process, that have accompanied us throughout our lives.
juttaschmi:Agreed, Stella, agreed!!!
CarlzimC:Because we are brainwashed into formal logic.
panta98: Carl, I need a "Flying Crystal Ball"!!! Proceeding ... Your remarks are all brilliant, excellent!!! What did our Platonic "Republican" Education do with our "brains"? And, now we even have a US "Republican" government!!!
juttaschmi:Carl: a pity, that you and Bill don't live just around the corner. We would be building a saucer right away!
CarlzimC:Agreed, Jutta.
panta98: What is so "sad' about the issue, is that in reality we could build one. Really, it is no problem. ... However, continuing, instead of duplicating, of contradicting the duplicate, the clone, now many global citizens will just be replicas, will just replicate, ruminate global Newspeak.
juttaschmi:Who knows what barriers we would brake, or break, apart from the Schall (sound) one.
CarlzimC:We have a Republicomediocracy government.
CarlzimC:We would break the mind barriers.
panta98:The Illuminati broke the "sound barrier"; and we cannot even detonate the "time" barrier!
juttaschmi:Yes, definitely so, Carl!
juttaschmi:Time and Space and mind barriers.
panta98:Yes, Carl. That is what we are trying to do here and now!
juttaschmi:Franz, the concepts of time and space are only the most notorious examples of labour-process parameters. Other ones, related to them, are "spirit" and "matter", of course, and also motion, rest, energy, anenergy, etc. etc.
juttaschmi:We do have "a hell of a job" (pardon my French) to walk on our own feet, think and excel of and by our own brains.
juttaschmi:Basically, all terms imaginable are filled with a labour-related content.
juttaschmi:We have to consider this in our deliberations, yet go a step further.
panta98: Jutta, and "I believe", "I hope", "evolution", "revolution", "rights", "good', "bad", "true", "false", "man", "human being", etc. ... What is so strange is that we are already "living" in a different world, as compared to all that what is happening around us. We are already so different. We should just learn to know ourselves, how we do the do, how we think. These we don't realize as yet, exactly because of our "mind barriers". Don't forget, the physical labourers, ...
panta98: ... and the majority of the intellectual labourers still have a "slave mentality", this means, that their mind does not function, it is encased in spatial-temporal cells.
juttaschmi:True Franz.
panta98:In fact, we have to get rid of the dualisms, of the "non-contradictions", of the "facts", of the "being concrete", of "being made only of solid concrete", ...
panta98:Of Godly and Satanist, of "True Americans and Illuminati", of Space and Time, of Life and Death. This Orwellian "doublethink" should be ostracized from our minds.
panta98:And, how do we get rid of them?
CarlzimC:D'accord, Jutta! We need to overcome tremendous barriers. In the play "The Allergist's wife" that Fran & I saw, the Allergist's wife and her octogenarian mother use profane language.
panta98:By relating them.
panta98:And, how do we surpass them?
CarlzimC:because it sells.
CarlzimC:Tragic.
juttaschmi:That is the ultima ratio of the system, Carl.
panta98:By DOING  a n d  THINKING something that is new, original, authentic.
juttaschmi:Agreed on all your points, Franz.
CarlzimC:We surpass by doing creative work, and study...
CarlzimC: ... every day.
panta98:Now, what is new, original, authentic?
CarlzimC:That which surpasses what has been done before
panta98:Exactly so, Carl, that what has never ever been done or thought before, and that what will not be repeated again, that which is NEITHER good NOR bad, NEITHER space NOR time, NEITHER life NOR death! In one word, Transcendence!!!
CarlzimC:By becoming alchemists - macht Gold aus Scheisse.
juttaschmi:Now, even within the realm of science in this very labour process, it seems that they are dealing with problems that we are debating here. Where exactly lies the difference, Franz? Are we living in "Aufbruchszeiten", where "reality comes forth to catch the thoughts", and vice versa?
panta98: Jutta, no problem comes forth, unless its solution is also existent!!! And, we are living this everyday. Proceeding, in the transcendental, non-formal-logical "spirit": I never tell Jutta that she is good or bad. I tell her a "hell" of a lot of things, which are definitely different from this moral "Bullscheisse".
juttaschmi:We will become emancipatory alchemists and alchemistic emancipators, Carl.
juttaschmi:Stella - there has been some German involved! I hadd a good laugh right now, thanks to Carl.
panta98:We are so "busy", not making money, that we are not even aware of "time"; sometimes, we lose a whole "year", and we do not know whereto it disappeared. A busy bee always wonders: "How Time flies!" It buzzes beyond temporal limitations. Hornets too!
naranjahit:yes, Carl your German is correct - in a certain way ;-).
juttaschmi:With regard to "time", Franz, I agree with you and Stella: We never "have" it. Perhaps, this is one of our transcendental secrets. Because "to have or not to have" belongs to the world of the labour process.
CarlzimC:Time never disappeared because it never existed.
panta98:"Space"? We don't even use all the "space" in our small apartment; we visit the patio once in a blue moon, once in "six months".
juttaschmi:Then you have been emancipated from the very "beginning", Carl.
panta98:You see what I mean, Carl.
naranjahit: I visit the patio every day!
CarlzimC:Yep, Franz&Jutta.
juttaschmi: I'm circling around in space like a mad (wo)man, Franz. From La Pedregosa to San Onofre and back again.
juttaschmi: Stella lives part in real space, part in virtual space!
naranjahit: yes! part of me is in SO.
panta98: Stella, let the patio visit you, at least once! We, here, we don't "live" in space and time. We only live as such, when we have to give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar, that is, when we "labour", to survive in the Patria. Otherwise, we are elsewhere, everywhere. Our minds, our existence, faster than lightning, than light itself, whirl, quiver, quirk all around the Magellanic Clouds.
CarlzimC: If you had a flying saucer, you'd land in Beijing in 15 minutes.
juttaschmi:Stella, I am sharing the same space here with you on my desk, as your lovely Caipirinha photo stands right next to me. Carl, probably less than 15 minutes.
CarlzimC has left the room.
juttaschmi:... because we would build a Turbo-Flying Saucer.
panta98: "Call", in China, then for supper I could eat "flied lice and thlee Spling lolls". Jokes aside, look at our chats, our dialogues, our debates, and then anybody can see our transhistoricness, our transcendence.
CarlzimC has entered the room.
juttaschmi:.. less than 15 minutes, Carl, because we would build a Turbo-Flying Saucer.
naranjahit:Jutta you have to see "Contact".
juttaschmi:Is this a new film, Stella?
naranjahit:I told you about it, yes a film.
CarlzimC:Hi, folks.
juttaschmi:We will try to get the video. Hi again, Carl!
naranjahit: With that scientist lady and the "Glaubensberater" of the White House.
juttaschmi:Who has eyes to see, will be able to see this, Franz.
juttaschmi:Ah, now I remember, Stella. Yes, you told us about the film. The lady scientist who makes "unbelievable" discoveries.
CarlzimC: What's a Glaubensberater?
naranjahit: exactly.
juttaschmi:A Glaubensberater is some sort of guide for religious belief, Carl.
juttaschmi:Glauben = Belief
CarlzimC:A swami.
juttaschmi: Berater = counsellor
naranjahit:thank you Jutta
panta98:We do not feel "well" in the Patria; we can't stand the deafening noise, because we want solitude to concentrate, to THINK; we do not go on sex tourist vacations, we do not celebrate Christmas or Carnival, we do not pray, we do not prey ... these are surely transcendental aspects.
juttaschmi:Welcome, Stella.
CarlzimC:Consiglieri (Mafia)
panta98:We have a certain attitude to Nature, to animals, to birds, to the sky --- these are emancipatory attributes. Of course, we also get wild, get mad, get fed up, get fed-up!
CarlzimC:Sex tourist vacations  = insanity.
juttaschmi:However, Franz, so much to transcend, so little transcended.
juttaschmi:Agreed, Carl.
panta98: Yes, Jutta, we could learn something from Cecil John Rhodes. ... Transcendence, Excellence, Breaking the Space and Time Barriers, are not such "miraculous" things; naturally, ontically, excellently, we perform them "every day".
juttaschmi:My poor brain has difficulties to reconnect the neurones in another way, Franz.
CarlzimC:Excellent, Franz.
juttaschmi:No easy road to transcendence. But we are trying hard.
panta98:We think, we write, we intellectualize, we rationalize, we aspire, permanently. We are never "bored". So, how come that we have a problem to break the Space and Time Barrier?
CarlzimC:Rocky road.
juttaschmi:And of all the things Franz mentioned, it is not even that hard to do and think.
panta98:The "Space and Time Barrier" is Labour, is Alienation, is the inner mechanism of all these, is our inner "spiritual" jail house.
CarlzimC:Now how do we show others how to develop this ability
naranjahit: It is strange. Sometimes I have the impression, that thinking is much more difficult than transcending.
juttaschmi:We are like Goethe's Faust: Zwei Seelen wohnen, ach, in meiner Brust - (Dahl and Hunter, as Iris would say now) - Alienation and Emancipation.
panta98: Carl, unfortunately, there are things which one have to learn all by oneself. This "ability" is a self-ability, not a liability! If we know what labour is all about -- and I think by now we should know it -- tthen, we have acquired this "ability", have transcended already beyond the spatial-temporal limitations of our everyday "work".
CarlzimC: Labour = mind control = alienation.
panta98:Stella, that thought is excellent, now tell us something transcendental about yourself!
CarlzimC:Please, Stella.
juttaschmi: At least, Carl, others have to be on the emancipatory track themselves, in order to see emancipatory sparks. We cannot put them spatially on orbit.
naranjahit: It is because transcending - if it is really going on - "passiert von selber"  -- I can't explain it.
juttaschmi:Translating: transcending happens all by itself.
panta98: Stella, why are you, are you existing at many "places" at the same "time"? Or, are perhaps your "tictac and zigzag", your transcendence, always and anytime? Are not ONLY in Mainz, awaiting the coming Carnival!
juttaschmi:You mean, if you think, you have to do the brain "work", and if you transcend, your brain does the "work" for you, Stella?
CarlzimC:Stella, is transcendence self-expanding thinking? Like a self-extracting exe file?
naranjahit:exactly so Jutta
juttaschmi:hehehehe, show me the trick, please! :-):-)
juttaschmi:Joking aside, you have a point there, Stella.
naranjahit: I would if I could.
juttaschmi: Self-expanding thinking is an appropriate term to express it, Carl.
panta98: Our Transcendence has nothing to do with religious or theological transcendence, of "life" after death, in Hell, Heaven or Purgatory. This nonsense we cannot think, cannot reason -- nobody for that matter. That's why people believe in such hocus-pocus. Why they believe in democracy!
naranjahit:Franz I did not understand your Question.
juttaschmi:Clearly not, Franz - our transcendence has to do with other things. Stella, Franz says, that you are already omnipresent - present in different "spaces" "at the same time".
CarlzimC:Purgatory = super-laxative (lol)!
naranjahit:ok. thank you!
panta98:My question is: If thinking is more difficult than transcending, why are you so conscious, so conscientious, so aspiring, so anticipating, so day-dreaming? ...
juttaschmi:Carl Carl Carl! ;-)
panta98:Yes, we need some educational "purge"!
juttaschmi:Earthly purgatory.
juttaschmi:Very much down to earth.
CarlzimC:Franz, it's a skill we learn.
panta98: ... So loving, so lovely, so lovingly, so beautiful, so truthful?
CarlzimC: These wordsare nonsensical.
CarlzimC: But Love is real.
panta98:Are these not transcendental traits? Are they not essential, existential, transcendental characteristics of Hers Truly?
juttaschmi:Love, Beauty and Truth = real cosmic-ontic-excellent-relations, Carl.
juttaschmi:You could say so, Franz.
CarlzimC: Love is real, but beauty and truth are perceptions.
panta98: To that, Carl, we'll come in the next chats. Stella is real, she has real, lovely, beautiful, truthful traits. Something, when it concerns billions, which I cannot bet on, surely not my head, not my brains!
CarlzimC:Love is the fuel of thinking and transcendence.
panta98: Carl, what's happening? You are getting artistic, poetic! That is the differentia especifica -- that is, transcending, emancipating.
juttaschmi:Totally agreed, Franz. Stella is real, lovely, beautiful and truthful for us!
naranjahit: Hey! stop it!....
juttaschmi:Excellent, Carl!
juttaschmi:Stella - face the truth!
juttaschmi: :-)
naranjahit:Jutta :-)
CarlzimC:Franz&Jutta: Now I understand. I was referring to commercial beauty and truth
juttaschmi:Carl, correct: we are talking about emancipatory traits.
CarlzimC: Stella is indeed beautiful and truthful.
juttaschmi:And so is Carl!!
panta98:Things are not so complicated, so complex, as they seem. To be natural, to be able to have fertile thoughts, to aspire towards Beauty, Truth and Love -- these are the easiest things in the Magellanic Clouds, provided that you are in "good" company, sowing pandemonium everywhere. Don't forget: our Objective is Beauty; our Subjective exists as Truth, and our Transjective excels as Love.
Our Triagory:Beauty  a n d  Truth  AND  Love.  Beauty is Acting, Truth exists as Thinking, Love surpasses as Excelling.
juttaschmi:Because we all have truthful, emancipatory relations among each other.
CarlzimC:Thanks, Jutta.
juttaschmi:This is the sunny side, perhaps the easy side of emancipation. - You are most welcome, Carl.
panta98:About Carl, I don't want to say anything, it might be an under-statement ... I just don't have words. I'll have to use symbols. :-X
CarlzimC:In this regard, the Mideast and Iran are becoming Western-styled, commercialized, commercials.
juttaschmi:Carl has extraordinary, emancipatory qualities.
CarlzimC:Cosmetics fair in Iran.
panta98:Stella, are you now like this? :-[ -- blushing?
naranjahit:Maybe in future it would be the same case with transcending, that is, when they need a "piece" of it for the labour process,
CarlzimC:Thanks, Franz
juttaschmi:The whole globe is becoming "Western Style", becoming commercially infected, Carl.
CarlzimC:Punk Rock in the Gulf States.
panta98: Stella, Red is the colour of Love! Forest Green for Transcendence, for "Hope"!
naranjahit: no, forget it.
juttaschmi:... proceed proceed, Stella!!!!
juttaschmi:never mind your English, German, Italian, whatever.
CarlzimC:They're selling prayer rugs on www.arabia.com
CarlzimC:Proceed, Stella
naranjahit: Then they would cover it up in the same way that they are doing it at the moment with "thinking".
juttaschmi:Moreover, Stella, this corresponds with Iris' famous question, concerning whether the labour process, if it should become necessary, would be able to "cut off a piece" from emancipatory things.
panta98:The Labour Process cannot transcend, it can never be NEITHER Exploitation NOR Domination NOR Discrimination NOR Alienation; if it could or would become these, then it will already be EMANCIPATION! What Labour exploits, can only exploit, is non-related Nature and Society. It cannot dominate related History, although it claims everyday that it is making History. In other words, Labour can only alienate, exploit itself.
CarlzimC:The labour process would commercialize emancipation.
juttaschmi:I have been wondering about this, too, Stella. What, if they know something about emancipatory transcendence, and are trying to destroy it, or keep it for themselves? I am thinking of capacities as illustrated by Oleg Lohnes, for example.
juttaschmi:Natural faculties of the brains, diverted, commercialized, being held secret, etc.
CarlzimC:They will try to keep everything for themselves.
juttaschmi:Agreed, Carl.
panta98: A capitalist cannot just do any thing, for him not everything is possible. For example, he cannot stop exploitation, cannot stop capital accumulation, cannot stop to own, buy or sell. For these reasons, he is per definitionem a capitalist and not a "bum". Also, he cannot give everything to the poor, and follow Jesus!
panta98:A capitalist cannot own, sell or buy something which. in the short, long or absolute term, would not bring profits, accumulation of power, wealth. Now, emancipation surely don't supply these goodies, these pecuniary benefits. What can a capitalist do with transcendental Beauty, Truth and Love, which do not exist in his Labour World, in his Labour Hen Kai Pan! To whom would he sell them, how would he realize Capital, Labour? How do you labour for Beauty, Truth and Love? For that, capitalists are too corrupt, absolute liars, brutal, pragmatic, empiricist, positivist, structuralist, concrete.
panta98As little as they could commercialize my "brains" in "six decades" on three "continents", so little are the chances that Labour and Capital could commercialize the "alien" emancipatory nail in its own moribund coffin!
naranjahit: L.& C. cannot transcend - agreed, but they have a kind of "thinking", so they will have a kind of "transcending", won't they?
CarlzimC:Not realizing that "kept" is not emancipation
juttaschmi:Agreed to your question, Stella, and agreed to your remark, Carl.
panta98: Stella, "thinking" and what they call "thinking" are not necessarily identical. Thinking and Thought, in our understanding, need two different postulates, principles. This is the kind of thinking which transcends the other unilateral parrot rumination, (which cannot surpass the limits of labour); newspeak cannot speak anything else than the CNN news to which every day you and billions others
listen! The only way for Labour to transcend is to go to Hell, which it created itself. And, as Jutta said last time, Hell is Labour Hell, on Earth!
juttaschmi:They could definitely commercialize "revolution", because it is part and parcel of the system, its negation, its other side.
CarlzimC:All revolutions have been commercialized.
juttaschmi:Yet emancipation is "beyond" reach for the labour process. Although I would not be surprised, Stella, if elements came up, that resemble very much our concept of transcendence.
CarlzimC:Revolution = counter-revolution.
panta98:The greatest revolutionary is Labour itself; Capital made the French Revolution, the Zenith of all Revolutions!
juttaschmi:And industrial, technological "revolutions", Carl.
panta98:Labour and Capital invented "revolution", "rivoluzione", "rivoltura".
juttaschmi:They even had "Maggi - The Revolution in your Frying Pan".
naranjahit:hehehehehe
juttaschmi:Do you remember that commercial, Stella?!
CarlzimC:Kinder, Küche und ?
naranjahit:yes
panta98:They also have the "Emancipation Of The Slaves"!
panta98:Also: "Emancipation of Women"!
juttaschmi:Now, admittedly, "emancipation in the frying pan" is not that much apt for commercialization.
panta98:These they commercialized very well. But this is not what we are talking about!
juttaschmi: The Three "K's", the KKK, Kinder, Küche, Kirche (church), Carl.
CarlzimC:Agreed, Jutta.
CarlzimC:Thanks. Jutta.
juttaschmi:You're welcome, Carl.
juttaschmi:Energy - Electromagnetics - Emancipation: Free yourrself with Tesla Technology!
panta98:Anything that Labour has produced  -- for example, The Internet -- it can commercialize; what had produced labour itself, this cannot be commercialized!
juttaschmi:(The future commercial for Tesla Technologies Inc.)
panta98:My $Zillion Question: What produced this monster, labour?
naranjahit: Good point!
juttaschmi:A combination of molecules gone bunkers, Franz!
naranjahit:?
juttaschmi:heheheheheh
panta98:??
panta98:Carl, Hilfe!!!
juttaschmi:"Go bunkers" = go nuts, durchdrehen, Stella
naranjahit:ach so!
CarlzimC: Civilization produced labour.
naranjahit: Civilization is a product of labour.
juttaschmi:Correctly so, Stella.
panta98: Nuts, Go-nuts, Do-nuts, What produced "civilization", Carl?
CarlzimC: ... und morgen die ganze Internet.
juttaschmi:Und morgen die ganze Milchstrasse.
juttaschmi:(Milky Way)
naranjahit: und Vega.....
panta98:Was it not Labour? As Stella just correctly stated!
panta98:Las Vegas, too. Stella!
CarlzimC:Human migration into natural resource rich regions with exploitative, manipulative leaders.
juttaschmi:(Mars, the chocolate bar producer, is going to replace the traditional cocoa beans with a genetical substitute. So, our beloved Mars and Milky Way chocolate bars will be fake chocolates!)
naranjahit: And the bananas will have Impfstoffe - vaccines - ab sofort!
panta98:Is Labour the ONLY thing? Does ONLY LABOUR exist? Is there something "outside" of Labour, of which it is an intrinsic part?
juttaschmi:O noooooo, Stella!!!
CarlzimC:The Planet Mars and Milky Way will remain natural (lol).
naranjahit: Yes, read Spektrum.
juttaschmi:I do "hope" you are right, Carl. - The labour products will poison us sooner or later. I don't want to receive a vaccine by eating a banana, Stella.
naranjahit: Cuidense sus cambures!!!
panta98: Yes, we will take care of our bananas, even if we ourselves would "go bananas". I "hope" that the British cows won't stray across "colonization" in that galactic direction, in that Way!
juttaschmi:We will, Stella.
panta98:Imagine a MAD Milky Way!
panta98:But, getting back to more "pleasant things". What produced Labour?
juttaschmi:From mad cow disease to mad milky way. The labour process has, indeed, come a long way...
naranjahit:Franz, every question has its answer, now, tell me the answer - there we go!
juttaschmi:Franz, you heard Stella. Please proceed.
panta98:What do you think, Stella?
naranjahit: It is late. I want to know it before I have to go to sleep ;-)
panta98:What could be a possible, logical answer?
juttaschmi:There she throws the ball back to you, Franz.
naranjahit: You asked for it! Hehehehehe!!
juttaschmi:Labour produced Labour.
juttaschmi:A la Münchhausen.
naranjahit: No!
juttaschmi: Creatio ex itself!
juttaschmi:Created out of itself.

panta98: The very same History, the very same Emancipation, about which we are talking.
                  Now, don't lynch me!!!

naranjahit: That is frustrating!
juttaschmi: Das werd ich Iris sagen, Franz!!
juttaschmi: (I will tell Iris about this, Franz!)
naranjahit: Oh, I don't like this version....
CarlzimC: Listening ...

panta98: Labour is ONLY "inside" History; as a Sphere, History exists "inside
a n d  outside" of Labour (that is, "whereto" we are transcending, emancipating ourselves); History transcends itself, as NEITHER inside NOR outside of Labour, as NEITHER inside NOR outside of Itself, toward myriad OTHER Spheres.

Hence, LABOUR, as a unilateral, non-relational, self-producing entity, as a Hegelian "World Spirit",  is "produced" or "alienated" as an only part of the "INSIDE" of History, by History, by Emancipation.

juttaschmi:Franz, what about introducing the next chat around this statement you just made?
juttaschmi:This is getting too complicated now, and the hour is pretty much advanced.
naranjahit: Let's sleep a couple of nights over that question!
juttaschmi:I will have to give this a thorough thought, too, Stella.
panta98:Agreed, I will continue explaining all this next time. Labour is not "bad" or "good"; it is not that we like it or do not like it, it is not an ethical or normative issue; it is an "object" of scientific-philosophic enterprise. We are not classic "Marxists" or "Christians" who want to get rid of evil! We have a Science
a n d  Philosophy, a Method, and we are applying them for the sake of knowledge and emancipation.
naranjahit: Da ist ja wieder alle s in eienm Topf!
juttaschmi:Perhaps there labour is to be found all across the universe?
panta98:We want to know ourselves, we want to grasp all realities, spheres, including labour, which is also a reality, but not the only one.
juttaschmi:(All different things are being thrown into one kettle, says Stella, Carl.)
naranjahit: Thank you Jutta
juttaschmi: pleasure, Stella.
panta98:We do not hate labour, we do not curse labour, we do not bedevil Labour, we are scientists - philosophers - emancipators.
juttaschmi:I agree, that labour is nothing of a normative matter, Franz.
panta98:As such, we study Labour to understand it; we are not killers, assassins, we do not want to kill anything, not even Labour.
juttaschmi:Yet I am thinking about the implications of the before said.
naranjahit: I hate labour! Sorry for today I am very "subjective", I have to sign out ;-)
panta98: Yes, the "implications" are massive, but we are majestic too. We do not leave a single stone un-turned, we do not allow grass to grow under our feet, in our search for beauty, truth and love. We want to transcend labour, and not fool around with it -- trying to achieve Sisyphus revolutionary work.
juttaschmi:Agreed with your statement and subjectivity, Stella.
panta98:Stella, a zillion thanks for sharing your transcendence with us!!!
juttaschmi:Franz, shall we continue next time then?
juttaschmi:Stella, it was a pleasure to have you in the chat tonight.
naranjahit: Welcome! please send me the Chat! Have a good rest!
panta98:Good-Night, don't forget to supervise the elections, and to pay Carnival a visit!
juttaschmi:You, too, Stella. Good night.
panta98:Yes, we will!
naranjahit: Nada de elections (ich hab's in den Mülleimer geworfen!).
juttaschmi:Carl, we will resume next Tuesday. Stella has to sign out now.
naranjahit:good night!
juttaschmi:good night.
naranjahit has left the room.
panta98:OK! Carl. Did you see our new Photo Album on Ecircles?
juttaschmi:all right folks, Franz will surely give us a short introduction next Tuesday, as to why and how history is the origin of labour.
panta98:Carl, still around?
juttaschmi:I have saved the chat, Franz.
panta98:Me too,.
juttaschmi:Carl has probably gone to fetch Fran from the bus stop, or she has come home and he is attending her.
panta98:Good Night, Carl. We noticed that you went to fetch Fran from the bus stop!
juttaschmi:So: Goodnight Carl, it was a great pleasure. Give history and labour a thought until next Tuesday.
juttaschmi:Send our regards to Fran.
panta98:Till next Tuesday! Enjoy the Ecircles Photo Album!
panta98:Gute Nacht!!!
juttaschmi:Goodnight everybody.
panta98:Bye!
juttaschmi has left the room.

[Franz:
I enjoyed this chat tremendously. Stella contributed excellent insight. I missed Iris, and I hope that she, Khalid, Steve and Bill will soon join our chats again. Sorry I left early, as I picked up Fran at the bus stop.
Cheers.

Carl ]

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