Space, Time, Labour, Emancipation V
What Produced Labour & Alienation?
How do we apply what we discussed tonight
to our daily lives?
13th February, 2001 (Slightly Corrected Version)
SAYING: HI!
You have just entered room "panta98 Chat35."
juttaschmi has entered the room.
panta98:Hi! Jutta!!
Waiting for Iris!!!
juttaschmi:Hi!
Waiting for Carl!!
CarlzimC has entered
the room.
Einai2000 has entered the room.
panta98:Hi! Carl!
CarlzimC:
Hi, Franz, Jutta and Iris
Einai2000:Hello,.
goood evening everybody!
Einai2000:A
pleasure to be back with you again!
panta98:The pleasure is yours!
panta98:It's
an honour!
panta98:So. OK! Perhaps, let
me light the fire, let me start the fire-works!
juttaschmi:Lots
and lots of lemons on the trees in the garden, Carl. - Franz, please light
my fire!
Einai2000:Alright,
Franz, proceed!
panta98:Only if you all agree.
Einai2000:Agreed.
juttaschmi:Agreed.
THE FUN COMMENCES
panta98:Well, then, I'll just
give a brief introduction, some food for thought, some thought for a fruitful
debate.
juttaschmi:That
is good to hear, Carl.
panta98:In our previous chat,
Carl formulated the decisive question: "CarlzimC:
How
do we apply what we discussed tonight to our daily lives?". I began
to answer his question. Here are some additional afterthoughts.
CarlzimC: A
Clockwork Lemon would be great, Franz.
Einai2000:
:-) Carl!
Einai2000: Ok,
Franz, listening.
CarlzimC:
8-) Proceed, Franz.
panta98:The question did not
really catch me off guard, but we did not have enough time left to give
it its well-deserved merits.
juttaschmi:Please
proceed, Franz.
panta98:What surely affects
us in our daily lives, FIRSTLY, is the question whether we really
act and think, or, without being aware of this, whether others act and
think for us. The latter is generally the case in the labour world; it's
a man's world; it's the realm of the boss.
panta98:And
how do others think for us? Well, the whole educational system, the social
norms and behaviour patterns, have been sanctioned by the labour system,
in the service of capital and profits.
panta98:Thus
ideas, thoughts and world outlooks have been imprinted into our minds,
which were not generated by our own actions and thoughts. Already here
the manipulation and indoctrination began.
Einai2000:Agreed,
Franz, proceed please...
juttaschmi:I
think, at this stage of our own state of affairs others do not think and
act for us, Franz.
panta98: Agreed, Jutta. That's
why we are the Pandemonium Crew! A young, tender mind, as Plato explained,
can be easily imprinted with all sorts of things, and these leave a lasting
impression. For example, religious ideology is extremely tenacious; for
billions, in a whole lifetime, it is practically impossible to erase this
strychnine from their minds.
panta98:Any
comments, directly to the above, before I proceed?
Einai2000: Not
as yet, Franz.
juttaschmi: The
problem is, that billions would not stand it, living without their religion
and indoctrination, Franz. They don't know or have anything else, anything
of, for and by themselves.
juttaschmi: We
always have the "concrete" example here with our Venezuelan students...
CarlzimC:Franz,
however, religion appeals to the imagination, and the elites exploit this.
panta98:Yes, we are genetically
95% chimpanzee, and nearly 95% of the world population are religious. This
must be the the real "monkey business", the "missing link".
Einai2000:However,
probably it's still somewhat our problem, too - talking about the "normative
aspects" you mentioned in the last chats with reference to our approach
towards the contents of the concept Emancipation.
juttaschmi:....
they simply would not be able to live without their strange form of Catholicism,
mixed with local "heathen" traditions.
panta98:Precisely so, Stella
& Jutta.
juttaschmi:Good
point, Iris, very good point.
Einai2000: But
probably you will come to this point later.
Einai2000: Proceed,
please...
panta98: Yes, Iris we are normed
and formed, in-formed.
CarlzimC:We
need emancipatory stimuli of the imagination - art that transcends.
Einai2000: de-formed,
I'd say...
CarlzimC: Art
and music.
juttaschmi:However,
if Stella says, she finds something "frustrating" in the line of argumentation
of Franz, this might rather refer to methodological problems than normative
ones.
panta98: Yep! Carl. D'accord!
Einai2000:Yes,
Jutta, however I didn't refer to this aspect of your last chat.
juttaschmi:I
agree on the idea of emancipatory stimuli, Carl.
panta98:Well, Stella has to
explain to us her concept of "frustration" in this specific context.
panta98:I
will proceed now.
Einai2000:...and
"hope"fully the "response" of the stimuli will show up, soon!
panta98:Thus, in order to act
praxically and to think theoretically, to counter mesmerizing ideology
and obscurantist newspeak, it is imperative to develop a Science a n d
Philosophy that in every possible respect is superior to capitalist practice
and ideology. This is what we are attempting, and what is significant in
all our emancipatory endeavours.
juttaschmi:I
am "frustrated" at times with regard to my own limits of methodological
understanding, for instance.
CarlzimC:On
the Arabic forum at www.arabia.com,
most participants didn't realize that Arabic music was popular in the USA.
Einai2000:Same
here, Jutta!
panta98:Well, Jutta, this frustration
has a remedy.
panta98:You
just castrate all prostrations from your mind, faster than the speed of
lightning, of light.
juttaschmi:The
decisive thing is, what Franz just mentioned: you "counter" the system
with your own method, that has to be superior to the practice and ideology
of the world wide status quo.
Einai2000:Are
you still here, Carl, Jutta&franz? I don't get any postings...
CarlzimC:Franz,
intellectual labor offers emancipatory opportunities that physical labor
doesn't provide.
panta98:Yes, that's what I
said.
Einai2000:Ok...
juttaschmi:This
is interesting, Carl. Can you please explain further?
CarlzimC:Iris,
do you read me?
juttaschmi:Iris,
do you read me?
Einai2000:Yes,
Carl, I read you all now.
juttaschmi:ok.
panta98:Surely Carl. But only
5% of the world population -- probably even less -- have this necessary
highly technological intellectual labour power.
juttaschmi:Problem:
as you are your own teacher and student "at the same time" (we
never get rid of that concept, do we?!), you have to do it all by yourself.
You have to get to know your own limits and also surpass them on your own.
CarlzimC:Intellectual
workers are encouraged to think even off the job. They will not only think
job-related.
juttaschmi:You
certainly have a point there, Carl.
panta98:That is, Carl, if they
do think, do know what "universal" thinking is, which I very
much doubt!
Einai2000:The
emancipatory opportunities of intellectual labour for emancipation - this
is Khalid's field...
CarlzimC:We
have to be our own therapist. Nothing a shrink can do, that you can't do
for yourself.
juttaschmi:Yet
the system might be directing its ideology precisely and massively towards
the intellectual labour force, in order to keep them neatly occupied with
the latest consumer toys, etc.
juttaschmi:Fully
agreed on your shrink (psychotherapist) hypothesis, Carl!
Einai2000:Truly
so, Jutta, and Carl.
panta98:Well, Khalid, the poor
guy is locked up in the bank on Tuesday evening; he cannot think intellectually,
especially today: Martes 13, a sort of Friday 13 in Venezuela.
juttaschmi:I
wish Khalid could tell us something about the emancipatory opportunities
of the intellectual labour force, Iris. It is a shame he is not here.
CarlzimC:Iris,
it would be great if Khalid could unlock the vault and join us.
panta98:When you are ready,
I'll proceed to the second point of the application of our Science and
Philosophy in real life.
Einai2000:Yes,
maybe he would write some addendum to our chat...
Einai2000:Proceed,
please Franz.
juttaschmi:He
would have told us something about the future role of the universities
in educating the intellectual labour force, neatly measured to fit into
the multinational corporation's policy.
CarlzimC:Franz,
I suggest you ask Khalid to send you his thoughts to add as a chat addendum.
juttaschmi: I
support your suggestion, Carl.
Einai2000:Same
here, Carl and Jutta - fully agreed.
panta98: SECONDLY, we
honour acts and deeds which are profitable, which fill the coffers, and
with which we could satisfy our daily immediate needs; also, their corresponding
ideas and thoughts, all necessary for survival, for happiness.
panta98: Agreed, Carl. In any
case, he'll read this chat tonight. Survival and happiness within the global
system, within the fatherland, form the essence of one thing, however,
a completely different issue is the one which concerns emancipation and
excellence.
panta98:Comments?
juttaschmi:Well,
Franz, you are "right" in this respect.
panta98:Save the chat, please!
Einai2000:I'll
save it, don't worry.
CarlzimC:Franz,
however, today the post-industrial world focuses on needs that exceed survival.
juttaschmi:Yes,
yet "survival" and "happiness" defined by the very system.
panta98:Agreed, Jutta.
juttaschmi:What
has "survival" meant for the system so far? - Reproduction of the labour
force - physical and intellectual - it relies on it.
Einai2000:Yes,
but I think OUR main problem and perspective is not precisely to "survive
and be happy wtihin the system" in the sense that you put it above, Franz.
CarlzimC:Marcuse
focused on needs beyond survival.
panta98:What exceeds survival,
Carl?
juttaschmi:"Happiness"
is the full dosis of ideology, clouding the labour force in sweet illusions.
...
panta98:Iris, then, what is
our problem, what is our perspective?
Einai2000:What
we are about to discuss, and what we are doing all the time already, Franz.
juttaschmi:...
and making the labour force take out their clubs to beat the h__ out of
someone who utters a doubt about all those marvels called "democracy",
"human rights", "constitution" etc.
panta98:Oh! I'm so happy! I
yearn for the "Happy End"!
CarlzimC:e.g.,
continuing education and travel to distant lands exceed survival.
Einai2000:What
"happy end" now, Franz?
panta98:I'm coming to the "marvel"
just now, Jutta. You are pretty fast!
Einai2000: Oh
yes, the marvels, I'm scared ;-)
juttaschmi:They
are WORKING hard on this one, Carl: they are deciphering the human genome
as fast as they can, in order to proceed to the next stage of artificial
reproduction of the species under any given circumstances - be it a those
of a space ship on its way to Cygnus A, be it a totally wasted planet,
earth.
CarlzimC: Democracy,
human rights and constitution are PR bullscheisse.
panta98:And what happens when
the guerrillas and gorrillas catch you in distant lands, in Colombia or
Indonesia? Then the government has to pay millions to save you, so that
you may survive.
juttaschmi: Agreed
on PR bullsheisse, Carl.
CarlzimC: Franz,
you bribe the guerrilas and gorrillas.
Einai2000:To
say the least!
panta98: Well, can Captain
Marvel proceed?
juttaschmi:But
this is, where THINKING starts. The billions would not agree with us, that
democracy, human rights, peace, constitution etc. are all a farce!
CarlzimC:Shazam,
Franz
juttaschmi:Captain
Carl or Captain Cook?
panta98:Yeah! Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum!
I smell the blood of an Englishman!! Of a colonizer par excellence!
Einai2000:Proceed,
Count Captain Marvellous Franz!
panta98:OK!
panta98:In
this emancipatory way, our chats, our acts and thoughts, our objectives,
subjectives and transjectives, are applied to our daily lives. Acts are
relatively simple and straightforward.
CarlzimC:Carry
on, El Comte, El Conde.
panta98:Thinking and Thought
demand a certain degree of mental activity; are very complex and complicated.
In existence, they are not like that, but our corrupted, rusted and confused
brains have already forgotten long ago how to function, how to perform
their ontic tasks.
panta98:This
is really the reason why thinking has become a strain, a "torture"; in
reality,Theory and Philosophy are part and parcel of ourselves, are our
inborn social traits.
panta98:In
the fatherland, theory and thought are censored, are restricted only to
the affirmation of the system, to the establishment, to the status quo.
As Plato said, "opposite views", contradictions, are not welcome.
juttaschmi:I'm
oiling my neurones now, Franz. This time with salad oil, so that I don't
have to depend on the "oil for the lamps of profit".
panta98:Any comments?
panta98:Iris,
it's your field. Any comments?
Einai2000:For
me, it's rather a torture indeed to tackle some issues which are considered
being "thoughts", "theory", for instance political theory to give you an
idea ;-) .
panta98:Yes, we, here
in Venezuela, we oil the wheels of global exploitation.
CarlzimC:A
swami (guide) is needed to help a person achieve emancipatory thinking.
Can't do it alone.
CarlzimC:You
need a plan and a program.
Einai2000:A
leader, in other words, Carl?
juttaschmi:Well,
Franz, thinking presupposes several steps: firstly, proper identification
of WHAT we are thinking about, secondly, THAT we are doing this, relating
our thoughts towards a thought-thing, - step, that allows us to differentiate.
Einai2000:An
emancipatory Elite?
juttaschmi:And
then, the tango starts!
CarlzimC:Someone
who helps you be your own leader
panta98: Jutta & Carl,
we had enough of the advice of "great leaders", Il Duce,
"Mein Kampf"! Too many guides around, too many manuals, too
many text-books, too many information centres; these make us lackadaisical.
We just want to feed on "guides", we have forgotten to be pathfinders,
panthers.
juttaschmi:Help
yourself to be your own leader, Carl.
juttaschmi:Be
your own swami.
juttaschmi:Be
your own teacher and student "at the same time".
panta98:Then, I'll proceed.
....
juttaschmi:...
and in different "spaces".
panta98:Our previous chats
have the emancipatory task to assist us in our endeavours to act and think
and excel all of, by and for ourselves. This is a different way of Action,
of Thought. This road is not easy to take; however, our chats are guiding
"mile-stones" along this thorny highway to the stars.
CarlzimC:Jutta,
someone needs to help you do this in early childhood.
juttaschmi:The
building of a personality in the swami-sense is a whole lifetime process,
Carl.
juttaschmi:Every
stage is important, though.
CarlzimC:As
an adult, we continue this process by interacting with other emancipatory
thinkers as in this chat.
CarlzimC:Depends
on the guidance, Jutta
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Carl.
panta98:The babies help themselves.
they would climb up a 20 meter tree without any problem. They only fall
down, when we begin to "guide", to help them.
panta98: I did it, and my grandfather
nearly got a heart attack!
juttaschmi:As
a child, you climb up a tree without "thinking" twice, and then you get
stuck high up in the branches and scream your lungs out, when you realize,
you can't come down anymore.
juttaschmi:And
still you somehow have to get down that tree again, and you somehow manage.
panta98:Jutta, the "not getting
down", that only happens, when the child, in a Platonic sense, recollects
the do's and dont's which it received fifteen minutes before.
juttaschmi:True.
As soon as somebody stands at the bottom and says, do this, do that, step
here, step there, you're gonna fall down for sure!
CarlzimC:I'm
saving the chat transcript.
juttaschmi:So
am I, Carl.
Einai2000:Thanks,
Carl.
panta98:A goat would never
enter where it can't come back again. Babies, children, are like goats.
But the gangsters of "Desert Storm" are guided by the Pentagon and NATO.
panta98:Proceeding
....
panta98:THIRDLY,
nearly everybody who still has a functioning mind is already sick and tired
of the old garbage, of the eviternal "news" about the Mideast conflict,
about "international terrorism", about "scientific discoveries" to improve
"human health", about "presidential elections", about "great men" who make
"great history".
juttaschmi:So
it seems "guidance" spoils it all. Unless the guide says, guide yourself,
and takes a nap.
Einai2000:YES!
Franz.
CarlzimC:The
NWOsters are guiding the Pentagon, NATO and Saddam.
juttaschmi:So
it is, Franz and Carl and Iris.
panta98:Really, on this globe,
in the New World Order, there is nothing new under the sun. Everywhere
the same millennia-old blatant lies, stinking corruption, merciless brutality,
bizarre exploitation, absurd domination, eerie discrimination and weird
alienation. The "human race" is age-old, skinny, limping, crawling, moribund,
dying. Nothing new, authentic, original anywhere.
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Jutta
panta98:Something new, Carl.
Give us some news!
juttaschmi:There
does not emerge that much "news" from a corpse, Franz.
juttaschmi:The
system is rotten.
Einai2000:Truly
so, Jutta.
CarlzimC:Today,
marketing is the basis for a major war. It used to be production. That's
why America won World War II.
panta98:There are a few exceptions
to this "golden" rule, but they are not only of this world, they also exist
on another orbit, live partially in a completely different reality. This
we explained in our last chat.
juttaschmi:Production
and marketing go hand in hand, Carl. Like the "horse and carriage".
Einai2000:Franz,
if you don't mind, I would like to put a question with reference to the
last chat...if this is ok right now...
CarlzimC:Desert
Storm was the transition from production to marketing war.
panta98: Carl & Jutta,
like "Love & Marriage"! However, proceeding ...Who will "win" the current
Third World War, Carl? The vultures??
juttaschmi:Please
ask your question, Iris.
CarlzimC:The
NWO will win.
Einai2000:You
were talking about the $zillion question...
Einai2000: ... and
gave a rupee-answer - and with the question I'm having a problem.
Einai2000:You
put it like the following if I recall correctly: What PRODUCED the Labour
Process? ...
panta98:Yes, Iris. After this,
we'll immediately come to that!!! Carl, then we know the rapacious essence
of the NWO!
juttaschmi: proceed,
Iris.
CarlzimC:The
salesmen are in the Mideast today selling the upcoming Mideast war.
CarlzimC: ... for
control of Mideast markets.
Einai2000: Ok,
Franz.
panta98:Proceeding ....
panta98:They themselves, the
historic emancipators, form part of the galactic aurora, of the innovative
aura, surrounded by emancipatory aroma. Our renovating chats invite, nurture
and further such an excellent cosmic-ontic aureole, a truly new naissance
and renaissance.
juttaschmi:Agreed
Carl.
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Franz.
panta98:Now, FOURTHLY,
we have illustrated the various mind fetters that tie us to the Orwellian
Moloch; we underlined the "Space and Time" barriers in all walks of life,
in language, in acts and thoughts.
CarlzimC:Sharon
has many friends among the Arab Generals (birds of a feather...)
panta98:We have explained how
a master-slave mentality was inculcated into the very "souls" of billions.
To break, to eradicate these spatial-temporal chains, that's why our chats
are conducted in such a caring, careful way, in such a stringent, principled
manner.
juttaschmi:No
doubts about that, Carl.
panta98:Any direct comments,
before I go to Point Five?
Einai2000:...and
I would like to ask you to make some additional remarks on the notion of
"producing" here. If the question is out of place here or ueberhaupt,
I would be glad if you would explain this and probably reformulate the
doubt I'm having here.
CarlzimC:The
next stage in human evolution may be part human and part machine ...
panta98: Should I reply now,
Iris?
Einai2000:No,
please proceed, Franz.
CarlzimC: ... adapted
to survive on an asteroid.
juttaschmi:I
have no doubts about that one, either, Carl. Half man - half machine, as
Ray Kurzweil put it in one of his essays.
panta98:Iris, just not to break
the logic of my argumentation, as to the application of our philosophy
to real life, immediately, after my introduction, ask both your questions
again!
juttaschmi:Please
proceed, Franz.
panta98: FIFTHLY, in
real life, in everyday life, we are not interested in "What Is To Be Done?",
that is, we are not fascinated by the mindless actions, by the myopic activism,
"positive attitudes" and reconciliatory measures of the democratic and
revolutionary "masses". ...
Einai2000:no
problem, Franz, please proceed..
juttaschmi:Carl,
we'll come back to your remarks, too.
CarlzimC:In
the near future, it may be profitable to build unnatural products on asteroids
(best environmental conditions).
panta98: ... We detest their
excessive carpe diem, their inculcated self-defeatism; similarly,
we abhor the modus vivendi of the haute monde,
their roaming, roaring, hoaring and whoring hoky-poky; in short, we loathe
the vulgar hoity-toity of this rambling hoi polloi. This
emancipatory refusal is spotlighted in every single discussion that we
have.
CarlzimC:OK,
Jutta
juttaschmi:-
No "positive action", no "positive thinking".
panta98:I did not want to rush
everything; that's why I allow you to remark to every point. But, I see
that you are all very impatient.
juttaschmi:Franz,
please proceed with your introduction. We will be discussing it when you
have finished.
panta98:Here comes Jutta's
"marvel"!
panta98: SIXTHLY, our
chats unravel the ethical "marvel" of this gravel world. We are so "good",
and the others are so "evil", that we have no other paradigms or parameters
to measure anything else anymore.
CarlzimC:We'd
never survive in Asia with our impatience (LOL).
Einai2000:Yes,
please proceed, Franz...
juttaschmi:No,
we wouldn't, Carl! Not a second! ;-)
Einai2000:
:-) !!
juttaschmi:proceed,
Franz
CarlzimC:
8-)!!
panta98:Yes, even in emancipatory
endeavours "patience" is a "virtue".
juttaschmi:Truly
so, Franz.
CarlzimC:Yep.
panta98: Plato really got us
in a marvellous grip, he has us and our emancipatory acts and ideas in
a moral stranglehold. In everyday life we play "Good Guys and Bad Guys",
"Cops and Bums". We cannot imagine anything else beyond "good" and "bad",
"true" and "false" anymore. Our debates challenge these formal-logical,
unilateral, dualistic life styles.
panta98:Are
we not in a marvellous grip, Jutta?
CarlzimC:The
grip of Gozilla.
juttaschmi:...
on that "marvel thing", Franz: we are the good a n d
the bad guys, Franz. And also neither the good nor
the bad ones. We are the dynamic guys, man!
juttaschmi: Dynamonium
Crew
panta98:Yes, Carl. The grip
and 'byte" of Dracula.
CarlzimC: Captain
Dynamo.
panta98: FINALLY, to
generate novel acts and innovative thoughts, we have to develop a New Science
a n d an Original Philosophy AND
Authentic Emancipation. Well, that's precisely what we are doing, are thinking
about, and, that's why we are so excellent! Now the
debate could commence with full force.
panta98:Now,
Iris, please take over!
juttaschmi:Okay,
here we go!
juttaschmi:Iris,
you had a question, please.
juttaschmi:If
I remember correctly, it was related to the labour process as a "product"
of history.
panta98:Labour, produce, product
-- even man -- are practically all synonyms!!
juttaschmi:Does
that not mean, that there is something "historic" about the labour process,
Franz? Even and exactly because it is non-historic?!
juttaschmi:...
or ahistoric?
Einai2000:Ok,
just to sum up - your introduction thus illustrated amongst others the
point with reference to the "moral sentiments" (Adam Smith)
- the problem of the "normative aspects" witth reference to the concept
emancipation or the way it might be "misunderstood".
juttaschmi:So,
we ought not understand "emancipation" in a "moral" sense?!
panta98:Iris will roast me,
but Labour is not only Historic; even History is partially "laboural".
juttaschmi:Makes
sense, Franz.
panta98:... productive!
CarlzimC: explotative.
CarlzimC: colonialism.
juttaschmi:And
what about the "half-man, half-machine", that Carl spoke about earlier?
In how far is it "historic"?
panta98:Yes, exploitative,
"dominative, discriminative, alienative" -- simply a -native!
CarlzimC:It's
starting now, e.g., nanobots.
CarlzimC:Next,
cell phone implanted in the brain or my ....
panta98:The half-man is a product
of labour, is Labour; the half-machine is a product of Labour, is Labour
too.
juttaschmi:Already
the fact, that "food" is going to be something totally artificial, that
has nothing to do with "nature" anymore, is part of the artificial conditioning
of the body (and brain), Carl.
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Jutta
juttaschmi:half-man
- half-machine = full labour force.
panta98:Agreed, Jutta. Deformed
Natural - Perverted Social Labour Force.
CarlzimC:In
the past few weeks, an IV pumb around my wased killed a Staph. infection
juttaschmi:Iris,
how does the "normative part" of your question relate to the other one?
juttaschmi:What
is a Staph. infection, Carl?
CarlzimC: ex-machina
replaced ex-cathedra.
CarlzimC: Dangerous
bacterial infection, can spread to all major organs
CarlzimC: Staphylococcus
CarlzimC:The
IV antibiotic kept it localized in my finger, and killed it.
Einai2000:Give
me a moment, Jutta, seems my "brains" are totally in a mess...
juttaschmi:Take
your "time", Iris.
panta98:I'm patiently waiting,
Iris! Take your "time"!
juttaschmi:Too
much community power on your brains, Iris.
juttaschmi:Thanks,
Carl. - The "new" species will be immune to such bacteria! The human genome
project makes it possible, at least that is what they make it look like.
CarlzimC:Jutta,
they have a long way to go ...
CarlzimC: ... with
genomes.
Einai2000:to
say the least, Jutta... please, Carl, Jutta&Franz proceed, I fear I
cannot formulate a question, neither articulate on the relation of the
"normative factor" which I mentiones. Sorry, guys... preparing a paper
for the university totally de-programmed my mind, my thinking faculties.
panta98:It will be in the service
of "human health" in exactly this way! It will keep half-men - half-machines
eternally healthy.
juttaschmi:They
do indeed, Carl. What we are facing here, is a public relations presentation
of the whole human genome project, where they tell us all about how marvellous
it is. ...
CarlzimC:Guys,
before I forget, visit www.skolnicksreport.com
for excellent stuff on NWO.
panta98:What about the
"Zillion $ Question", Iris?
juttaschmi:...
yet, as you said before, if they are to send "humans" into space, this
is where they will have to rely on - the knowledge and manipulation concerning
human genes, in order to create a "thing" capable to resist and survive
under non-human conditions.
panta98:OK, Carl. I'll visit
the site. Yes, Jutta, to "explore" the universal wide Galaxy, en route,
they will have to produce and reproduce cloned "men" for generations, to
reach Pluto, and to return to Hell.
Einai2000:Franz,
I understand the direction in which your famous answer is pointing - but
in which sense you were asking what PRODUCED the labour process? Surely,
as we are trying to superate the formal-logical time/space parameters this
reamrk of yours was not meant in this sense...
CarlzimC:They're
already here, Jutta
juttaschmi:Thank
you, Carl.
juttaschmi:Yes,
as scary as it may sound, they are already "here", to put it in spatial
terms, Carl.
CarlzimC:They're
already there, Jutta
CarlzimC:Here
and out there
juttaschmi:In
and out, inside out, upside down, Carl.
CarlzimC:Kama
Sutra, Jutta (LOL)
juttaschmi:
:-)
panta98:Let me see:
What produces the Labour process? On the one hand, the Labour process is
the Process of Labour, which means that it is auto-producing itself like
Hegel's World Spirit.
Einai2000:Furthermore,
your remarks valuably pointed on our triagory - intensiv-extensive-
transentive, which also are not to be understood in terms of the
notion "inside" "outside"...
juttaschmi:So,
and coming back to Iris' question: Is all this a product of history, in
the sense that we understand it?
panta98:On the other hand,
there is a "What", and we know what "What" is -- it is essence, is Cosmos.
panta98:Cosmos
as Nature is "part" of History.
juttaschmi:We
have "nature". We have "society". We have (so far) "history", not only
as the relation nature-society but as neither nature nor society.
panta98:This means that History,
as Nature, is cosmically producing Labour.
juttaschmi:Thus,
"history" "includes" any relation "between" nature and society, even a
non-relation, or what we defined as the labour process.
Einai2000:Correct,
Jutta...
panta98:But, on Earth, part
of Society, Man, is producing, is labouring. Hence History, -- as
its intrinsic parts, as its "non-relations", as maltreated Nature and
perverted
Society, -- produces Labour, Alienation.
juttaschmi:But
in how far can we say, that the labour process is a "product" of history,
Franz?
panta98:Does this somehow answer
a part of your query>
juttaschmi:Hey,
you were faster with your answer than I myself with the question!
juttaschmi:This
is what I call REAL tele-communication.
juttaschmi:The
direct connection.
Einai2000:Sorry,
Jutta?
juttaschmi:...
you name it, we have it!!
Einai2000:Let
me see, Franz --
juttaschmi:Franz
answered my question the very moment I was typing it here. His answer came
first, then my question. Together, we make an excellent "Texan Cowboy"
- First shoot, then ask.
panta98:Labour is not ex
cathedra, is not extraterrestrial to History, thus it belongs to
History. History relates and transcends, among other things, it non-relates
labour, and it transcends its own product, Labour. it emancipates.
panta98:Yeah!
I'm the Lone Ranger, I'm Dyango!
Einai2000:Ok,
got it now, Franz - so you illustrated what we have called "Patria "within"History"?
panta98:And History in the
Patria.
juttaschmi:Does
this mean, that "half-man, half-machine" is on its way to emancipation?
Does the man-part emancipate itself from the machine, or the machine-part
from the man?
CarlzimC:Franz,
isn't labor also a product of people?
Einai2000:Or
is it part of emancipation, taking in consideration what we have disussed
right now?
CarlzimC:human
development?
panta98:So many interesting
questions? Which one to answer "first"?
juttaschmi:Carl,
labour is also a product of people - people or humans precisely understood
in the sense of homo laboralis - the labour man.
CarlzimC: Jutta,
the machine part can be easily controlled electronically.
CarlzimC: like
Robocop.
panta98:Homo faber, Carl. Bourgeois
Thinking is Producing!
juttaschmi:"Man"
who destroys nature, "man" who exploits, dominates, discriminates and alienates
himself.
juttaschmi:Carl,
I agree that the machine part can be controlled electronically. But there
always has to be someone to do it. So it seems the machine is not going
to "emancipate" itself from man, does it?
CarlzimC:In
the Robocop TV series, no Arabs in future Detroit, USA-like world map without
Africa. NWO depopulation plan?
panta98:Iris, are you asking
whether Labour is a part of Emancipation?
juttaschmi:Probably
so, Carl.
Einai2000:Yes,
Franz.
Einai2000:And
I think "Part" is also a difficult or crooked concept here...
juttaschmi:Labour,
at the point of its own self-destruction, will certainly be a part of emancipation.
panta98:"Part of" is perhaps
not a precise formulation. Rather, the question should be: is Labour related
in any way to Emancipation? Would you agree with this formulation?
Einai2000:Thats
it, agreed, Franz.
panta98:Because as such, the
question is answered already!
CarlzimC:Franz,
it's related, as emancipation = disappearance of and transcendence fom
nature.
panta98:The answer is: Yes,
it is related as a "non-relation", which is also a relation, to Emancipation.
CarlzimC:Perhaps
a totally human emancipated species will evolve alongside the 1/2 human,
1/2 machine.
panta98:But this has implications,
complications in Praxis and Theory, Carl.
panta98:Especially
in everyday life.
CarlzimC:Two
separate species -- Not either or.
CarlzimC:What
are the implications, Franz?
juttaschmi:Carl
has made some very interesting reflections here.
panta98: Carl, one thing is
"Man", the labouring animal. Another thing is the totality of historic
life on this planet, of which I assume that we form a part.
juttaschmi:proceed,
Franz
CarlzimC:Proceed,
Franz
panta98:Half-men and half-machines
belong to the non-relations on this planet, in History, to what the fatherland
has denominated as death. All men and machines are mortal. Socrates
is a man-machine. Socrates is mortal, is dead.
juttaschmi: hm...
panta98:We have been taught
only about the "half-man", the labouring man.
CarlzimC:Why
dead? The 1/2 machines will be active.
panta98: Not for too long,
Carl. Not in immortality. We have not been informed about our true totality.
CarlzimC:D'accord,
Franz
panta98:it now seems that we
are mainly,genetically, chimpanzees. there we get nearer to our historic
being and existence.
panta98:But,
the global brains don't realize what is being said there.
panta98:Not
only are our "personal" bodies deformed, deforested, our whole essence
is being destroyed on a global scale.
CarlzimC:We
have not been taught about our Reich Orgone energy and it's relation to
Tesla's Ether Physics.
juttaschmi:If
anything, "man" (hu-man - in any case) is the entire process of all the
species that evolved on the planet. By anihilating one species after the
other in the course of the labour process, this sonorous thing called "the
crown of creation" is eliminating itself. This is ridiculously stupid,
yet makes perfect sense within "the logic" of the labour process.
panta98: Yes, Carl. Not only
are our minds controlled, our global, animal, plant, insect, cellular mind
is being destroyed everywhere.
CarlzimC:Freud's
death wish, Franz?
panta98:Yes, that of Socrates
too.
Einai2000:Agreed
to your excellent observation, Jutta.
juttaschmi:Thank
you, Iris.
CarlzimC:World
humanity may be depopulated to a controllable 1 billion.
juttaschmi:Controllable
in what terms, Carl? Please explain.
panta98:We were told "Nancy
Stories" about our Being and Existence. our very bodies, our geological
physique on this planet is being destroyed. In other words, Labour tries
to wipe History from the face of the planet. This Engels prophesied; and
Hegel stated it in unequivocal terms.
CarlzimC:The
NWO may make mind controlled slaves of the 1 billion survivors. ...
CarlzimC: ... e.g.,
earthquake in San Salvador today
panta98:In fact, the Labour
process has infiltrated the animal and plant kingdom; they are exploiting,
devouring each other, at top speed. There is even developing a deformed
"unnatural" Illuminati among them.
juttaschmi:Why
is 6 billion a "threat" to the NWO, Carl? Are they "too many"? If I remember
correctly, I read in Newsweek, that, surprisingly, the whole world poplulation
would fit into Scotland. - So it cannot be a "space" problem.
CarlzimC:Can
you read my increased type size?
juttaschmi:It
is a perfect size, Carl. Much better to read. Thanks.
panta98:Before, no plant, insect
or animal would ever destroy completely its natural habitat, it's natural
basis of survival. Because everything is being destroyed by globalized
production, dog bites dog, dog devours dog.
panta98:Yes,
Carl.
CarlzimC:Economics.
They can't support 90 million robotic slaves.
juttaschmi:That
is, undoubtedly, a consequence of the labour process, Franz. -
CarlzimC:Man
bites dog.
juttaschmi:So,
those, who do not serve the system, have to perish, Carl? I imagine the
physical labour force are the first to disappear from the face of the planet,
as they are no longer needed.
panta98:Yes, Carl. Man is a
Dog, therefore he bites dog; Dog is domesticated, is Man, and therefore
he is a watch-dog of private property, of drug trafficking, is a police
dog. Dogs are practically extinct; what is left, is no more Dog, is manmade
Dog, is dogmade Man.
CarlzimC:Yep,
Jutta.
BLENDING OUT ....
Einai2000:Yes,
I can read you perfectly, Carl. -- Sorry, Carl, Jutta&Franz, I'm exhausted
and will have to say goodnight for today. You please continue with the
chat and make sure to save it and send me the whole manuscript...
panta98:Iris, we are dead-tired
too.
juttaschmi:The
physical labour force have become a part of "nature" for the system - something,
that can be exploited, destroyed and thrown away when convenient, or even
inconvenient.
juttaschmi:Well,
so shall we continue next Tuesday then?
CarlzimC:OK,
Iris. Gute Nacht. Schlafen Sie wohl!. Hope you attend
next Tuesday's AOL chat
juttaschmi:Carl,
Franz, what do you think?
Einai2000:For
sure I will be there, Carl
juttaschmi:And
I would like Iris to prepare some questions for us.
panta98:Yes, Jutta, gone are
the days of pack-animals, of donkeys, of oxen, of dogs who played shepherds
on the Scottish hills, where the chaps wooed their lovely maidens.
panta98:Good
Night! Iris & Carl.
CarlzimC:Jutta,
everything is disposable today
Einai2000:It
was a pleasure, Carl, Jutta&Franz - I'll see what I can do, Jutta ;-)
panta98:Jutta will introduce
the topic next time!
juttaschmi:I'm
afraid so, Carl.
Einai2000:Alright,
perfect!
juttaschmi:Okay,
so, let's all say goodnight, give the chat another thought, and continue
next Tuesday.
Einai2000:Yes,
Jutta, agrees.
panta98:Bye, everybody! CANYV
and AOL behgaved "good" tonight!
Einai2000:Gute
Nacht, Carl, Jutta&Franz!
juttaschmi:Perhaps
I will give an introduction.
juttaschmi:Gute
Nacht, Iris.
panta98:Bye!
Einai2000:sweet
dreams all!
juttaschmi:Carl,
good night.
CarlzimC:Ok,
Gute Nacht, all. Thanks, CANTV.
Einai2000:Talk
to you tomorrow, Jutta&Franz...
juttaschmi:Sweet
dreams. Iris, and enjoy your well-deserved rest.
panta98:"Good Night" -- "Bad
Illuminati"!
Einai2000:Give
our regards to Fran, Carl!
panta98:Regards to Fran!
Einai2000:Thanks,
Jutta, buenas noches all!
juttaschmi:Ok,
Iris. Carl, do take care. Send our regards to Fran, please.
panta98:Bye! All!!!
juttaschmi:Bye.
CarlzimC:Franz,
I will send you the chat transcript.
panta98:OK, Carl.
CarlzimC:Fran
sends her regards to all
juttaschmi:Thank
you, Carl. Good night all - roger, over and out.
CarlzimC has left the
room.
Einai2000:Bye!
Einai2000 has left the
room.
juttaschmi has left the room.
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