Carl (Teaneck,
USA)
Juergen (Fränkische
Schweiz, Germany )
Jutta (Merida,
Venezuela)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
Space, Time, Labour, Emancipation IX
Emancipatory Fire versus
Labour Energy!
Even, Uneven & Combined
"Development"
of Being & Consciousness
13th March, 2001
SLIGHTLY EDITED, ORIGINAL VERSION
( Please take
the remaining typographic errors as Pandemonium Greetings;
it absorbs too much valuable "time" to correct them all! Chats, by their
very nature, are not perfect scientific treatises.)
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You have just entered room "panta98 Chat38."
juttaschmi has entered the room.
THE USUAL "HI!"
panta98:Hi!
Jutta!
juttaschmi:Hi
Franz.
Iroll245 has entered
the room.
panta98: I'm
inviting Juergen!
juttaschmi:Okay,
I'm waiting.
panta98:Hi!
Juergen, a pleasure to see you!
Iroll245:
Good evening everybody. Nice to see you "online"
panta98:We
are just waiting for Carl, he'll be there in minutes!
juttaschmi:Hello
Jürgen. Pleased to meet you.
CarlzimC has entered
the room.
panta98:Hi!
Carl!!!
juttaschmi:Hi
Carl.
CarlzimC:Hi, Franz, Jutta,
Juergen.
Iroll245:pleased
to meet you, Carl.
INTRODUCING "JUERGEN": OUR NEW CHAT MEMBER!
panta98:As
soon as we want to torture ourselves again, we'll surely visit you, Juergen!
In which city do you live: Ingolstadt?
Iroll245:No,
about 110 km north of Ingolstadt in an area called "Fränkische Schweiz",
between Nürnberg and Bamberg.
CarlzimC:Juergen, please tell
us a bit about yourself.
juttaschmi:Carl,
Iris and Stella won't make it tonight. They send their regards.
panta98:"Fränkische
Schweiz" is that the name of the small region
or city?
CarlzimC:I know, Jutta, I'm
sending them my regards, as they'll read the chat transcript.
juttaschmi:Fränkische
Schweiz is the area, Franz. I think it is a beautiful spot, attracting
many tourists around the year.
juttaschmi:Alright,
thank you, Carl.
Iroll245:Sure,
my name is Jürgen Bernad, born in 1967, married, no
kids yet. My part in the international labour-world is a job as contract-manager
and consultant for cross-cultural projects in the railway industry
juttaschmi: Ad-Trans,
if I'm not mistaken?
panta98: Carl,
we "met" Juergen under some strange circumstances; he was looking for me
on the Internet, because my daughter from my first marriage lost her father.
Juergen helped a little. And she found me in the South American "Lost &
Found".
Iroll245: That's
it Jutta and Franz.
panta98:He
so much liked our Home Pages, Forums and Chats, that he decided to stay!
Iroll245:And
I have to state I was a bit fascinated by the ideas and debates I saw -
therefore I'm here tonite.
juttaschmi:It
will take quite some time until Jürgen has read himself through all
the pages. I'm glad he liked what he read so far.
panta98:Anyhow,
folks, before AOL behaves like a "Mad Cow", and CADELA decides to cause
a Black-Out here, let's begin!
juttaschmi:So,
welcome to the Chat-Crew, Jürgen.
CarlzimC:Excellent, Juergen.
My son found my wife's lost cousin, a medical research scientist, in the
UK, using an online geneaology search.
panta98: Yes,
Juergen, I also especially welcome you, feel at home!
Iroll245:Thanx
all - curious about this evening!!
THE FUN BEGINS: INTRODUCTION
panta98:You
tell me when I could begin, please.
Iroll245:please
start Franz
juttaschmi:Please
proceed, Franz.
CarlzimC:Juergen, I listed
your buddy name on my AOL. Willkommen!
CarlzimC:Carry
on, Franz
panta98:Our
interlinked Topics, "Uneven & Combined Development", the "Variegated
Levels and Degrees of Consciousness" and "Emancipatory Fire & Labour
Energy" seem to be very complex and scholarly, but this is not true. We'll
take the first baby-steps to approach their praxical and theoretical essence
and existence.
juttaschmi:Ready
to go!
Iroll245:allright!
panta98:At
first, let me demonstrate this very simply, with some obvious examples,
and then we can advance to more interesting ventures and adventures. What
follows may seem "childish" to erudite scholars, and yet it is childlike
flagrancy and fragrance.
juttaschmi:No
problem.
panta98:OK!
Jutta.
panta98:Let
us see how "education" over the centuries, instead of enlightening everybody,
has created several levels of "human beings" with their corresponding degrees
of "consciousness", living in different space and time parameters.
CarlzimC:All things are possible
when seen through the eyes of youth (Haroun Al Raschid).
juttaschmi:(Beautiful
comment, Carl)
panta98:Yes,
Carl, but youth is sometimes "reckless"; which could be dangerous for security!
juttaschmi:Education
most certainly is the cornerstone of the system, Franz.
CarlzimC:Thanks, Jutta
panta98:Yes,
we'll see, Jutta, what it taught all of us.
juttaschmi:Education
is vital for the interests of the system, but please proceed, Franz.
Iroll245: Or
as a weapon against the system.
CarlzimC:Education = mind control
= high school shootings in the USA.
panta98:D'accord,
Juergen!
panta98:Some
still enjoy the superstructure of slavery (Africa), others advance mentally
to the Roman Catholic feudalist order (Latin America), others stagnate
in the Ottoman Turkish Empire (Mideast); others live in the "Newspeak Era"
(USA); others live here 300 years too early (Don Albert): all in the same
"Global Space", at the same Global Time: 2001 AD.
juttaschmi:Different
levels of consciousness, so to speak.
CarlzimC: Education = mind
control.
panta98:Any
comments, Jutta?
juttaschmi:Well,
we have a daily experience of what you just said with our students here
in Mérida, Franz.
panta98:Yes,
Carl. That is what I am going to explain just now.
panta98:Please
elaborate, Jutta.
juttaschmi:Many
things are simply inexplicable to them, as their minds are fully stuck
in the superstructure of the Middle Ages, with the full consequences of
the case.
panta98:If
we fall from the Internet, just be patient, we'll be back, and invite you
all again. Please save the Chat!
Iroll245: saved!
juttaschmi:They
firmly believe in God, and their version or vision of "history" is "salvation
story". Anything else you would try to tell them about the "contemporary
world" is just a waste of time.
panta98:With
the workers and peasants, everywhere it is the same.
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta.
Iroll245:You're
talking about your students, Jutta?
juttaschmi:Yes,
Jürgen. Franz once asked his students, if they could imagine the scenario,
that there was no God ...
panta98:Yes,
our Political Science students here at the University of The Andes, Juergen.
juttaschmi:...
and if so, what they thought would happen then. Their answer was: "We would
all become swine".
Iroll245:
Hmmm, I see - we're living in a different world at the same time.
juttaschmi:I
had a jolly good laugh; yet, the business is pretty serious. The feudalist
superstructure, belief, is the limit of the Political Science students
here.
panta98: Juergen,
you already formulated, explained what I intend to say tonight. Excellent!
Without God or Jesus, my students claim that they would convert themselves
into "piggies", just imagine that! Even "Babe" seems to be more intelligent!
panta98:Anyhow,
let me proceed .... We will just deal with certain aspects of this problematic,
related to our topics under discussion.
juttaschmi:But
please go on with your explanation, Franz.
juttaschmi:Agreed.
Iroll245:agreed
CarlzimC:They don't realize
that religion keeps them as cattle.
panta98:Because
we never really were taught the ABC of Praxis and Theory in the Kindergarten
or Primary School, I'll have to explain everything originally, building
thinking "from scratch" (Carl). Thus, as usual, please, be patient!
juttaschmi:This
is true, Carl. They have no idea of the function of religion.
CarlzimC:D'accord, Franz
panta98:In
any case, the "education" which billions received over the last decades
was not decisive for world production and modern technology. The relevant
qualitative "think-tanks" were schooled in special institutes, and a large
quantity of them is not necessary for the Information Age and Intellectual
Property.
juttaschmi:Exactly
so, Franz.
panta98:So-called
modern mass education has more to do with ideology, obscurantism, nurturing
ignorance, "newspeak", "mind and thought control", with "Bread and Games"
-- with the destruction and violation of onttic faculties and abilities.
Einstein, Bloch, and many others knew this perfectly well.
panta98:In
any case, in the "Space Age", Africa, South America, the Caribbean, Oceania
and a large part of Asia have very little to do with the global consumption
of high tech wares and goods, accumulation and realization of Big Capital.
So, why educate these billions of "mad cattle" ready to be slaughtered?
Mass education was always advanced for production, distribution and consumption
purposes.
panta98:Any
direct comments?
CarlzimC:Even some think tanks
are lost in obscurity. I'll explain later.
juttaschmi:Plato,
in his "Politeia", explained all about the education system
of global labour.
juttaschmi:That
is, its vital importance to stabilize the system.
panta98:Interesting,
Carl.
Iroll245:In
some strange way I'm facing the same in business everyday. The generation
right out of university is highly speciallized but dumb in any other field
that is not their expertise.
panta98:In
the debate section, I would love to hear that one; but, if you so wish,
you could explain it now too.
CarlzimC:Many think tanks are
trapped in groupthink, they tell each other what they want to hear.
juttaschmi:I
think that is exactly the problem of the so called "Fachidioten", Jürgen.&
Carl.
Iroll245: bien
sure!
juttaschmi:And
people are being educated to be Fachidioten, that is, fulfilling
their role in the labour process, and nothing else.
panta98:Yes,
they are specialized, atomized in a limited sphere, and are being kept
dumb about any relations, or related matters; hence their real ontic capabilities
are being destroyed progressively, Juergen.
CarlzimC:I had to deal with
that problem within a 40 years career.
juttaschmi:Relating
= Thinking.
panta98:Poor
Carl, and you still kept sane!
CarlzimC:smart Dummkoepfe.
panta98:Yes,
Jutta, to that I will come just now!
CarlzimC:Sane? I doubt it.
juttaschmi:And
the education of the system does everything to specialize people for their
fields, and to prevent them from seeing the "big picture".
panta98:Ja,
kluge Dummkoepfe!!
CarlzimC:Richtig, Jutta.
panta98:Proceeding
....
juttaschmi:Danke,
Carl.
panta98:At
school, at university, billions never ever learned to know themselves,
au
contraire, nowadays, they are learning more and more how to lose
themselves, how to alienate, how to annihilate themselves. Let us proceed.
Any"time" you could intervene if you want to comment, or want to ask an
explanatory question.
juttaschmi:May
I now, Franz?
panta98:Yes,
Jutta.
CarlzimC: And how to drop bombs
on their own troops in Kuwait.
Iroll245:When
you try to see the full picture you could be regarded as a danger-source
to the system itself - so thinking can be dangerous.
juttaschmi:Last
Thursday, in Franz' first session of the seminar, he was explaining just
this to his students - that education is not there for them so that they
would get to know anything about themselves or about this world ...
panta98: I
surely lived that dangerous life, Juergen, simply because I was thinking
all along. That's French or German Fraternity, Carl. Bourgeois-Democratic
Brotherly Love!
panta98:Continue
.... Jutta.
juttaschmi:...
and their faces dropped onto the desks. Nobody could imagine, that the
purpose of education is just the other way round.
juttaschmi:But
please continue, Franz.
panta98:Proceeding
....
panta98:Starting
somewhere, anywhere, let us look at our "Space and Time" barriers. Exactly
because "Space" and "Time", or even SpaceTime, are fixed, hence, they form
an idee fixe, that is why they are bull-dozing all facets
of thinking and thought; they are the real unilateral zigzag, tictac global
distracters, destructors of abstractions, of reflections, of relations,
of contradictions, of Theory, of Philosophy, of Society.
juttaschmi:Hang
on, Franz. Carl, please proceed.
CarlzimC:In the 1980's, a think
thank told the CIA that there would be no revolution in Iran because the
Shah is quiet; this means that he's not worried.
CarlzimC: They failed to realize
that the Shah was quiet ...
CarlzimC: ... because he was
dying of cancer.
CarlzimC: So when the revolution
started, the CIA panicked and put Khomeni into power.
CarlzimC:An Islamic regime
that puts the people to sleep is better than a Communist regime in Iran.
panta98:I'm
following, Carl. Please, continue. ...
CarlzimC: Putting the Iranian
people to sleep encouraged Saddam, financed by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait,
to attack Iran.
CarlzimC:When Saddam refused
to pay them back, Kuwait drilled oil from Iraqi land.
CarlzimC:So Saddam attacked
Kuwait.
CarlzimC:Proceed,
Franz
panta98:I
remember that, Carl.
panta98:Comment,
Jutta, it's your field!
juttaschmi:Franz,
about the space and time barriers: Already Hegel had noted, that space
and time obstruct the understanding of contradiction, and contradiction
is a form of relation - the rudimentary form of thinking per se.
juttaschmi:That
has always been the best policy, Carl - putting people to sleep and prevent
them from being agitated.
panta98:Well
put, Carl. Proceeding ... Jutta, to explain this somehow simply: As a result
of Formal Logic, our minds have been trained just to see "A", just ONE
thing, uni-things, unique things, that is, that what is ONLY "white", "true",
"good", etc. "White" is always "White"; it, as "White", can never be "Green".
"Grey" or "Gray". Excellent!!
juttaschmi:Exactly
so, Franz. And seeing only one thing is not seeing anything at all!
panta98:Well,
it is a very unique starting point. At least, we have learned to count
till ONE. No problem, ONE'S also are, for example, Labour,
the Patria, the "human being". And it is scientifically stringent to know
the ONE, to study it.
panta98:The
real problem is to get caught up in the One, in Unison, in the Oneness,
in Unity forever, not to do, to think, to excel in anything else. An Only
One, a One-And-Only you cannot relate to anything else, you cannot really
think about it, because Thinking and Thought logically differentiate, contradict,
relate, are Relations, Bezuege.
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Franz. And as I said before: you ain't seeing nothing if you only see one
thing. Relating, thinking, presuppose the existence of at least two things.
panta98:Carl,
later, I'll try to comment on this most interesting explanation about the
Mideast Conspiracy, also about the "think tanks", just be patient!
panta98:In
the ONE, you can only self-non-relate intensively, meditate, contemplate,
pray, that is, can only observe passively its eternal "inner rest" spatial
parameters, its fixed dead inches and miles.
Iroll245:But,
a tiny little comment, a thinking human being MUST get bored as soon as
it had studied the ONE down to it's bones?
juttaschmi:You
bet, Jürgen!
panta98:Thanks,
Carl. I'll read carefully the whole text later.
CarlzimC:Yep, Juergen.
panta98:The
problem is that billions don't get bored with the One, with Big Brother,
they get headaches when they have to think or to concentrate intellectually
on some topic for just five minutes, Juergen.
juttaschmi:Yet
the system with its Formal Logics has thoroughly locked the door towards
thinking, towards relating, towards breaking loose from the one and only
"truth".
Iroll245:Hmm,
there's some truth in it!
panta98:Proceeding
... Yes, Juergen, agreed, Jutta.
panta98:Of
course, in the ONE, you could also "identify" its death agony, its death
chills, its progressive democratic deterioration, its temporal development
towards Peace; you could also see in fixed seconds and stiff minutes, even
in stifled light years, in formal-logical continuum, its Labour Rat
running
like mad on its round Wheel of Death, towards "Rest In Peace"!
juttaschmi:Of
course there is, Jürgen. But it is not the only truth.
Iroll245: Hopefully
not :-).
juttaschmi:The
motion of rest or the rest of motion!
panta98:However,
it seems that we have also been taught to "think", to count till TWO, for
example, till "black", "false", "bad", etc.
juttaschmi: Two
sides of the same thing.
CarlzimC: Janus, yin yang.
Iroll245:
... and beginning to judge.......
juttaschmi:Exactly,
Carl.
panta98: Yes,
Carl: Chinese "Dialectics"!
juttaschmi:Hegel
would say: a nice try to reach reason!
juttaschmi:...
complete your observation please, Jürgen.
Iroll245: means:
seeing two sides of Janus' head makes you fell the need for a decision
- which path to take.
panta98:Proceeding
... Nonetheless, what we did not notice is that TWO is not "B", but "Non-A",
and Non-A is manifold; "White" (which is not even a true colour) has many
"Non-A's", green, red, ultra-violet, infra-red, etc.
panta98:And,
we don't realize that we live in an Either-Or World, either A or Non-A.
Either
You Or Me; Never, You AND Me. That would be a Contradiction,
and it is forbidden!
juttaschmi: Juergen,
that is the problem: Nobody dares to choose BOTH sides, because then he/she
"contradicts" him/herself.
juttaschmi:That
is the door Formal Logics has closed for all times. And also the other
door: Neither the one nor the other path.
CarlzimC: Except contradiction
= reality.
Iroll245:
That
causes fear - fear is bad - non-productive - false.
juttaschmi: Exactly
so, Carl.
panta98: Yes,
Carl. Interesting, Juergen! The irony of the story is that "A" forbids
itself, its very own "Non-A", its own Negation. The reason: "A" must not
relate itself, and nobody should, should learn to think. After all, to
think, you must think about something, or, at least about thought itself.
CarlzimC: Fear of failure and
punishment, Juergen.
panta98:Even
this is forbidden by the "Law of Identity", "A = A"; "A" can never be "Non-A".
This is the ideological essence of "Mind Control" ever since the advent
of Labour; and, whether we like it or not, whether we know it or not, as
elaborated before, this is precisely HOW we "think" daily. If we do not
surpass these barriers, we might just as well forget about emancipation.
juttaschmi:Completely
agreed with your statement, Franz.
Iroll245: ditto.
CarlzimC:Courage is needed
to surpass these barriers.
juttaschmi:
Courage
and thinking, Carl.
juttaschmi:
;-)
panta98:Carl,
you would love what comes now. It's directly related to your explanation
of the Mideast Conspiracy!
panta98:As
an example, the famous religious-ideological contradiction "Love Thy Neighbour
As Thyself", in reality, in practical life on a global scale, is simply
the egoistic, greedy, sado-masochistic "Hate Thy Neighbour As Thyself",
is the unifying, peaceful, democratic non-relation that we are experiencing
daily in the Mideast Conflict.
CarlzimC: Yep, Franz.
panta98:I
knew that you would agree with me. Any comments Juergen & Jutta?
CarlzimC: Oil for the lamps
of NWO profit.
Iroll245:
Not
from this side of the globe - just listening.
panta98:Oil
to oil the wheels of Global Greed, Egotism & Egoism, Carl!
juttaschmi:Well,
you can say, the "immediate truth" is always "al revés", Spanish
for "upside down". They tell you one thing, and the exact opposite is true,
Franz.
panta98: That's
it, Jutta.
CarlzimC: Palestinians will
produce micro-chips cheap in sweatships in their own State ... like Nike
sneakers in Vietnam.
juttaschmi:They
are constantly talking about the "peace process" in Colombia or the Middle
East, for example, yet it has been a "war process" all over.
Iroll245: "Friedenstruppen".
juttaschmi: Exactly,
Jürgen!! The "peace corps" = WAR corps.
CarlzimC: A cheap labor control
process.
juttaschmi:All
this, of course, falls under the realm of Newspeak - upside down reality.
panta98:Anybody
wants tea? Matte? Earl Grey? Here it comes ....
panta98:This
the great bourgeois democratic capitalist revolution, the French Revolution,
had taught us long ago already under the sharp Guillotine of Enlightenment,
at the dawn of its omnipresent, omnipotent "Reign of Terror". This is what
I would call the real democratic paradigm of a grand ceremonial Family
"Boston Tea Party".
CarlzimC:The reign of terror
continua!
juttaschmi:So,
terrorism = democracy, tea = party, oops, I mean coffee, etc. etc. ...
panta98: From
Boston to Desert Storm is a very short distance in miles, but a few centuries
in time!
CarlzimC:Danton and Robespierre
were smart until they lost their heads.
juttaschmi:Logically
so, Carl. ;-)
panta98:Nowadays
the "bills", the "bushes", are out of their minds.
CarlzimC: Colonialism and imperialism.
juttaschmi:Minds?
What minds, Franz?
Iroll245:I
would'nt call it newspeak, as it exists much too long now. I'd call it
"language developed to divide the ables-to-read-between-the-lines from
the plebs (if it was'nt that long).
CarlzimC:D'accord, Jutta.
panta98:At
least, the bill, the $, still claims: In God We Trust!!! "Out of your Mind"
= Crazy, Mad, Mad like a Cow! Jutta.
juttaschmi:Excellent
definition, Jürgen.
Iroll245: thnx!
juttaschmi:In
God, the Dollar and Alan Greenspan We Trust ...
panta98:We,
Americans, God -- that is real Dark-Aged, feudalist, and that on a postmodern
$. A real example of uneven and combined development.
panta98:Proceeding
... As I was saying: ... Thus, we are still only counting till ONE, we
are living in one reality, one world, one truth, in the One Absolute Truth;
we are one human race, one people, one nation, one destiny.
juttaschmi:God
and Bill (Gates) however come pretty close these days, Franz. ;-)
CarlzimC:Agreed, Juergen
. If you want to control people, swamp them with long documents.
panta98: So
many "Bill's" , I'm getting confused, Jutta. Everything
in our labour world is related to Labour, is an objectivation or subjectivation
of Labour itself. Everything which we do and think is related to Labour
and Non-Labour, the two sides of the very same Labour process, of Alienation.
panta98:Let
us "move" on to some aspects of "even, uneven and combined development":
a social labour phenomenon that was especially highlighted by Leon Trotsky
and Ernst Bloch.
juttaschmi:Proceed,
Franz.
Iroll245:yes
please.
CarlzimC:Carry on.
panta98:Juergen,
you like literature, arts, "belletristics", so, you'll love this one. ....
panta98: Our
so-called counting till "TWO" is just an inner drive of our very ONE, is
looking at our being "torn between two lovers in labour pain", at our Faustian
"two separate dualistic 'souls' within our breast": at our Rousseauian
noble savage and Hobbesian wolfish nature, at our white faces and black
masks.
juttaschmi:This
is, how far Hegel came, Franz.
Iroll245: Yep,
that's booming .... I can nearly smell it.
Iroll245:I
mean blooming.
juttaschmi:Based
on his one and only postulate - "Geist".
CarlzimC:The Chinese count
in multi-numbers - cult of numerology.
juttaschmi:Booming
is nice, too! ;-)
panta98:I
see, Fee-Fi-Fo-Fum, I smell Geothe & Frantz Fanon! Yes, Juergen: I
hear the Boooommm!!!
juttaschmi:Interesting,
Carl.
juttaschmi:Pythagoras
had a sort of a cult of numerology, too.
juttaschmi: Or
rather "number mythology" ...
panta98:Fine,
Jutta.
juttaschmi:Continue,
Franz.
Iroll245: Ja,
Carl, but it only depends on what the Chinese are counting.
panta98:Proceeding.
... The very same thing happens with our conceptions of "Time" and "Space",
of "Motion", of "Development", of "Progress", of "Consciousness", of "Energy",
of "Freedom". They are all "A's", same forms of the same "A"; they
all have "Very Good" Grades.
panta98:Now,
coming to our Science and Philosophy, when we count at all, and
when we have discovered ONE already, then why not count TWO,
THREE, till a ZILLION and MORE?
CarlzimC: Juergen , counting
$USA today.
juttaschmi:
I
don't see why not, Franz.
panta98: I'll
explain.
panta98: When
we measure SPACE in inches, feet, yards, miles, light years, etc., then
why not find other and another non-spatial measurements that would
leave these unilateral parameters, and just surpass the monotonous zigzag
fashion?
panta98: Also,
similarly, when we measure TIME in seconds, minutes, hours, etc., then
why not think about other and another non-temporal connotations,
and just leave to Labour, and to labouring fans, the boring tictac of Yesterday,
Today, Tomorrow, of Past, Present and Future?
CarlzimC: Franz, the computer
can do that, e.g., Chaos Theory.
panta98:Any
question, Jutta? Any Comment?
juttaschmi: The
thing becomes interesting when you measure time in space and space in time
parameters, Franz. Then you clearly see the two sides of the same thing!
CarlzimC: Agreed, Jutta.
Iroll245:
... in blooming words, descriptions? Or just
use the other dimension of the same thing as Jutta stated?
panta98: Carl,
the only problem is that computers do not think, also alphas and
betas of the future, half-men-half-machines, would never ever think.
Proceeding ... these are the intrinsic "realities" of the ONE, and they
are "good" and "true" for the One, and for those who only live in the One,
that only believe in the One. In fact, TWO, THREE, etc., are non-existent
for homo sapiens sapiens, for the labouring man.
panta98:He,
the postmodern homo faber, the One, can't see, neither in front
of his eyes nor in his mind, anything except himself, except the one and
only. But this does not mean that he determines the Cosmos, that he decides
what is there, how it exists and why it excels.
juttaschmi:We
would have to start using neither space nor time parameters.
panta98:Yep!
panta98:Who
says A, logically must or can also say B, C, etc. Who already has a conception
of the Past, Present and Future, could just as well add a fourth mension.
Who goes North, South, East, West, NNE, SSW, as Don Albert demonstrated,
may just as well also go YZX, or @^&*.
CarlzimC:Because space and
time don't exist.
juttaschmi:And
this is, where the difficulties start. We have to develop our own concepts,
the respective "third" one.
panta98:Who
already knows what is good, and what is no-good, may just as well try to
think about what is good AND no-good, but this is forbidden; it is a contradiction.
And could also consider that what is neither good nor no-good.
But this the third law of Formal Logic, of Labour, also forbids. Thesis
(Affirmation) "A" is good'; Antithesis (Negation) "Non-A" is no-good; Synthesis
(Same Affirmation) "A" is "good" and "no-good".
CarlzimC: I'm saving the chat
transcript.
panta98 :.."B"
is neither good nor no-good .... as Jutta said before!
juttaschmi:Correctly
so, Franz. Formal Logics says, that always one of the two, A or non-A,
MUST be true, and that therefore nothing can exist, that is "neither A
nor non-A".
juttaschmi:Thanks,
Carl.
panta98:Even
still in the fatherland, one may just as well act, think and live Past
AND Present AND Future. Why not? But this is worse than a forbidden contradiction,
it is completely insane, is totally absurd! We can't and we won't even
try to consider such a crazy suggestion. Well, fine!
panta98: Just
to present some real, true information: although we can't, in Orwell's
1984, this is exactly what Big Brother is doing in all his space and time
parameters! He himself surpasses his very own One, he plays havoc with
Father Time, You could now imagine what nowadays the NASA, the Pentagon
and the NATO are doing!
CarlzimC:They will produce
industrial diamonds on Saturn.
panta98: Better
even, Carl, there they will very soon change a glass of water into a crocodile
with nanotechnology.
juttaschmi:That
is the "double-standard", Franz, and this is, what all the lies and ideology
are meant for: Keep people's minds in chains to a degree, that, if confronted
with anything real outside their known parameter setting, they actually
won't be able to "see", perceive or think it!
CarlzimC:They will fry protesters
in pizza ovens.
juttaschmi:Get
your own counter-microwave, Carl, and fry them, too!
juttaschmi:Not
Star Wars, but Microwave Wars!
panta98:And
beam them to Dr. Spock's planet! With the latest Beam Weapon!
juttaschmi: (Maggi
vs. Knorr),
CarlzimC:Yep, Franz and Jutta.
juttaschmi:
Kalashnikovs
are out, Microwaves are in!
panta98:Proceeding
... How about "Motion", "Development" and "Progress" within Neither Space
Nor Time paradigms and parameters?
CarlzimC: Bombard them with
lawsuits.
juttaschmi:(Get
your legal Microwave operation license now, before it is too late ...)
Iroll245:I
think you blame them too much. They only play a little HAARP.
panta98: Carl,
where could I buy a safety "lawsuit"? Proceeding ... What about "Energy"
not in terms of volts, watts, ohms and amperes? How about probable and
original, new and authentic concepts like Excellion, Transcendment, Promancipation
to express other and another relations? Why not? How about alberts,
lynes, carls, teslas and reichs against the bills, beardens and titarenkos,
to express Cosmic Emancipatory Fire? By the way, teslas
already exist in official Physics! Big Brother, the One, is ahead
of us already!
juttaschmi:They
sure do, Jürgen!!!!!
juttaschmi:Not
only Angels play HAARP.
CarlzimC:Juergen, more than
HAARP (weather); they do electronic mind control, produce AIDS, floods,
earthquakes
panta98:Carl,
you like my idea, above?
CarlzimC: Yep, Jutta.
juttaschmi:
Agreed,
Franz. What about "Carl of Rights" instead of "Bill of Rights"? ;-)
panta98:Yes,
some one zillion juergens or bernads to take
us to the Magellanic Clouds!
panta98:You
would like that, Juergen, you won't get dizzy!
Iroll245: still
here.
panta98:To
do this is a surely looking for trouble, for the death sentence, to be
burnt on the labour stake. And yet, all these things above were already
explained scientifically and philosophically by Don Albert in his famous
video-interview. Also by Reich and Tesla, and by many others, who for obvious
reasons never became known. renowned or famous.
juttaschmi:We
will be travelling with "Bernad 3" instead of Mach 3 to Frankonia.
panta98:Well,
I would prefer "Bernad 33" or even "Bernad 666". Folks, this is enough
ontic dynamite to initiate our chat tonight! Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Here
is Rose, dance!!!
PART TWO
THE DEBATE
juttaschmi:A
beautiful introduction, Franz. Perhaps, you are 300 years "too early",
just like Don Albert.
panta98:The
floor is open -- the dance can begin: what about a foxtrot!
panta98: In
"time", I think that is very optimistic, Jutta.
juttaschmi:Yet,
even "too early" is a time parameter we desperately want to get rid of.
panta98: "too
cool" for now, Jutta.
juttaschmi:Agreed
on "too cool", Franz!
Iroll245:Maybe
it's too quick. racing fast, not too early.......
panta98:Any
questions, any comments, Carl & Juergen??
juttaschmi:The
question is, if all that we have been observing and commenting on, is somehow
"part" of the process.
Iroll245: Process
of what?, Jutta.
panta98: What
do you mean, Jutta?
juttaschmi: I
should say "historic process", Jürgen, but we have come to name it
Labour Process.
Iroll245: Greenhorn
says: Sorry!
juttaschmi: The
Labour Process is the "historical" process of destruction of nature, of
economic
exploitation, political domination, social discrimination and human alienation.
juttaschmi:The
Labour Process is the process of the unilateral-destructive "relation",
rather non-relation between society and nature, and all it's consequences,
up to today.
panta98:The
four cornerstones of this world system, of the New World Order, Juergen.
Iroll245:But
if it was, anyone of us would be just a functioning wheel of the process
itself; and he/she was meant to be .... what an idea? ;-)
juttaschmi:One
of the expressions of this unilaterality in the "superstructure", that
is, the realm of "thinking", has been exactly Formal Logics with its unilateral
"truth"- parameters we were talking about earlier.
panta98:What
do you mean by that, Juergen?
panta98:Carl,
still around? Or are you fetching Fran in the meantime?
Iroll245:
I have to quote: "juttaschmi:Agreed
on "too cool", Franz! The question is, if all that we have been observing
and commenting on, is somehow "part" of the process."
Iroll245: I
mean: They would want us to do so - isn't this so, Jutta?
CarlzimC: Juergen, we are cogs
in the NWO wheel. In the Russian movie "Moscow sheds no tears",
there's an exact counterpart of me.
panta98:Yes
AND No, Juergen.
panta98: Yes,
in the sense that we are not well-informed about what is really going on.
CarlzimC: Same type of family,
job, lifestyle.
Iroll245:
Hmmm...,
awaiting an explanation.
Iroll245:
Agreed.
panta98: No,
in the sense that the Labour process, that is called "history", is only
a tiny part of other universal and multiversal processes, in which we also
"play" our parts, Juergen. This is independent of the fact whether we know
this or not, whether we can consciously grasp this or not, we simply have
our "Chaos" 'Clapping Of Our Wings' Effect across the Cosmoi, Multiverses
and Polispheres.
(Thrown Offline)
.....
You have just entered room "CarlzimC Chat52."
juttaschmi has entered the room.
Iroll245 has entered the room.
CarlzimC:
Hi, folks.
Iroll245:
Back again in a minute......
juttaschmi: Hi
Carl.
CarlzimC:
Last room was blocked by AOL!
panta98: There
we are. AOL does not like what we say!
CarlzimC:
Jawohl, Franz
juttaschmi: Strange.
It said the room doesn't exist.
panta98: Juergen,
as I was saying ...
CarlzimC: This is a new room.
juttaschmi:
Did
you save the chat, Carl?
CarlzimC: Yep, Jutta
juttaschmi:I
am afraid I lost a short part of it. Thanks, Carl.
juttaschmi:Franz,
please proceed. What were you saying?
panta98: Yes,
in the sense, that the system suggest to us that UFO's from faraway galaxies
are abducting us, when in reality the "aliens" are in the Pentagon, and
that the "Flying Saucers" are home-made. ...
Iroll245: Back
with fresh-brewed coffee - want a sip?
juttaschmi: Please!
juttaschmi: Beam
it over!
Iroll245: Energy,
Scotty!
panta98: No, Fire, Dr. Spock!
juttaschmi: *steam*
- Thanks.
CarlzimC: e-mail it over.
juttaschmi:Tastes
lovely.
panta98: Enjoying
the caffein flavour, before it will be forbidden like nicotine; soon we'll
have our delicious nescafe prozac pills. Our poor bodily health, the poor
deflated neurones!
panta98:
Proceeding ... To do this, NASA and its counterparts elsewhere cannot use
the time and space parameters which at traditional "public" universities
they globally teach to billions, already ever since decades; also they
cannot utilize their bare-faced Formal Logic, blatant ideology and insolent
lies.
CarlzimC: Cappucino.
panta98: In
this sense, we are part of a "hidden history". But, it is not History,
in the sense that we understand the term; on the contrary, it is another
sophisticated onslaught against Nature, against History itself; it is,
as we indicated, Transformed Labour Energy versus Historic Emancipatory
Fire! Thus, we have to be extremely careful when we talk about
"New Energy", "Free Energy".
CarlzimC: The occult, Franz.
panta98:You
see what I mean, Juergen.
Iroll245: Understood
- If they did, they'd lose their power-base ?!
CarlzimC: Yep, Juergen.
panta98: Worse
even, as Carl warned in another context already: they already may have
settlements on other planets. Now, who knows this, who would believe this,
within the parameters that they taught us in our wonderful formal logical
education? How would Chaka, the Zulu, believe that in his time, very simply
Tesla could split the world in half? Are we not in a similar canoe of well-planned
cultivated ignorance?
panta98: I'm
surely not a "believer", a "pipe-dreamer"; I do not "believe in ideological
fantasies"; but, for the sake of my own mental health, I have to take these
strange possibilities into stringent scientific-philosophic consideration.
In any case, in the past, I have believed in so much ideological and religious
hocus-pocus, like "divine justice", "redemption". "human rights", "democracy",
etc., so, for a change, why not consider more probable things too?
CarlzimC: Juergen, the flying
saucers were designed by German scientists in the USA using Tesla technology.
juttaschmi:
I
doubt,
that at this point, they would lose their power base, Jürgen. People
have been kept and "educated" ignorant for such a long time, that it is
almost unlikely that they would discover the "hidden history", also the
"occult ether physics".
juttaschmi:The
biggest obstacle is, that "unofficial" knowledge and technology is so well
advanced, that it probably would blow the average mind, thus, being qualified
by them as "hocus pocus". And there we go again: Variegated Levels
and Degrees of Consciousness.
CarlzimC: As a kid in the Bronx,
New York, I have seen a gyrocompass from one of these flying machines from
an American soldier stationed in New Mexico, USA, in 1945.
panta98:That
is what I meant by different levels and degrees of being and consciousness
earlier.
Iroll245: I'm
a bit astonished... In my social vicinity, not only X-files-freaks talk
about Tesla-ships and Saturn-Bases!
juttaschmi:How
are you supposed to "see" and understand things, you don't have a clue
about? It has been and still is to a certain extent our own problem. The
majority of the Pandemonium Crew has this very same problem!
CarlzimC: The gyrocompass was
written in German.
juttaschmi:
No
X-File freaks in Latin America, Jürgen. Nobody ever heard of Nicola
Tesla here.
panta98: Perhaps,
-- as bright as we may be -- we are still inn the situation of the Polynesians
who could not see Cpt. Cook's ship, because in their mental horizon
only canoes could appear.
Iroll245: For
an awareness, at least, you don't have to fully understand everything,
do you?
juttaschmi:Not
each and every detail, Jürgen. Rather "the big picture".
CarlzimC: A photo of the gnyrocompass
appears in Bill Lyne's book on this subject.
Iroll245:
That's
what I mean, Jutta.
panta98: Generally,
you find yourself somewhere on the electromagnetic spectrum of consciousness,
and there is always some infra-yellow, some ultra-black which you cannot
see as yet, and others may have perceived it centuries "ago" already.
juttaschmi:Franz,
that is an excellent example you gave. - Carl, I have seen the drawing
in Bill Lyne's book; also drawings of different kinds of flying machines
or so called "saucers".
CarlzimC: However, if you find
a significant detail, it helps.
juttaschmi:
It
surely does, Carl. Agreed.
panta98: The
trouble is that Poliversal History does not develop only in "labour mode",
uniformly, only in tictac, in zigzag, only in "progress", in "development",
in a straight line "forward", from Yesterday to Now, to Tomorrow. Whoever
taught us this significant detail? Do they teach us this in Political Science
at the University? No wonder that nobody understands anything about "Politics"!
CarlzimC: I saw the gyrocompass
but not the compass.
CarlzimC:
Not the saucer.
panta98:In
a certain sense, Hegel was "right", but he was misunderstood, not only
by Schopenhauer, but by thousands of other Hegel "experts". It is
not that with the death of Hegel the whole of History ended in 1831, and
that we should now crack jokes about his philosophy, about his "stupidity",
because "historical development" till now, in 2001, had proven him to be
"wrong".
juttaschmi:Franz,
agreed. Yet, uniform eyes and minds prevent us from seeing the whole spectrum.
Iroll245:Seen
it too, Carl, and yes, Franz, that's it; but if you know about your possible
lack of knowledge you can start to compensate.
Iroll245:At
least, I always try to act like this.
CarlzimC:Agreed, Juergen.
juttaschmi:(Carl,
Occult Ether Physics, page 66 - drawing of a saucer).
CarlzimC:I got it, Jutta.
panta98:
Well, Jutta, that is why we have to transcend our limited Space and Time
mental barriers, to emancipate ourselves! In any case, among other things,
History has to do with the Mind, with Consciousness, and these find themselves
all across the natural-social spectrum of History. Not everybody lives
or finds him/her/itself, at the same "point", in the same "space", at the
same "time', but could very well be, exist or transcend all over the show.
CarlzimC: Our Willhelm Reich
Orgone "Energy".
panta98:This
means that not all the so-called living live now, here and now, in 2001.
In "education", Plato is very much alive now! He still 'thinks" and is
"conscious" socially! In fact, he was "dead" for centuries, and like Phoenix,
he rose from his own ashes. Also, not everybody of the 19th century, for
example, Marx or Darwin, are stone-dead. Furthermore, the still "unborn"
may be age-old already. We all live and die, and neither live nor
die, all across 0 - zillion neither B.C. nor A.D.,
and this explains what Hegel meant: the even, uneven, combined, and
extraordinary "flow" of History.
juttaschmi: Uneven
and combined development determine uneven and combined consciousness, Franz.
CarlzimC:The spirit.
panta98:Precisely
so, Jutta. But, please, I love Hegel, I love Marx, but I love the Historic
"Truth" more!
CarlzimC: Zigzag like Chaos
Theory.
juttaschmi:In
the (now burnt-down) Paramo, peasants live in a flat-earth-belief. Their
minds and thoughts are "flat".
panta98: Christianity,
Roman Catholicism, Macho World Religions, feudalism and absolutism, all
were born in that very same world outlook; and they are still very much
alive today! Hence, it's not so, that
History exists for itself, and sometime in 300 BC, or 2000 AD, or even
1 000 000 AD, after life, we return to Our Father in Cygnus A. What a hocus-pocus
has been taught to billions of poor souls! Here at the university, students
enter with a "Holy Mass", and later they are being sent out into the Labour
World with another "Holy Mass". So, where and when do they study?
Iroll245: Yes,
history doesn't exist in that context - it is a mixed collection of contexts.
juttaschmi:The
"whole" of history is "contained" in each and every "part" of its totality.
Something like a hologramm.
CarlzimC: Agreed, Juergen -
We are all a collection of hyphens!
juttaschmi:And
each and every "part" reflects "the whole" of history.
Iroll245: very
zen-y, Jutta
panta98: I'm
sure that my students don't see me, I'm not in their epoch; I'm not living
around Rome, while it is burning. But they are burning Merida today, now,
as if it is still Rome. For them, they do as the Romans do, they burn Rome.
I'm not there. All Roman Catholics Roads, even the Via Crucis, even the
Via Lactea, lead to Rome, to the Vatican. Before, I did not even
see my students, now I can see them, across history, transhistorically.
juttaschmi: Does
that make me a Buddhist now? ;-)
CarlzimC: And Nero fiddled
while Rome burned - upper violin string theory.
Iroll245:
solly,
me no expelt!
juttaschmi: Franz,
your students do not even see a fragment of you. Sad, but true. They see
you through their very eyes, they see as much as their horizon allows them
to see. Probably, your colleagues have the same problem, who knows?
CarlzimC: Helluva pizza oven
8-)
juttaschmi: No
ploblem, Jülgen!
juttaschmi: Yes,
Carl, Burning Rome = Pizza Oven.
panta98: Now,
nothing about "parallel worlds", nothing about "time-travel", emancipation
means to act, to think, to excel, transhistorically.
juttaschmi: And
Mérida, too, since weeks!
Iroll245: Hmm,
Franz, I must raise a question? May I?
juttaschmi: Proceed,
Jürgen.
panta98:Yes,
please ask, Juergen!!!
panta98:Waiting,
Juergen!
Iroll245: Is
this just because their intellectual capabilities are so limited or do
you just don't find the way to attract their poor little attention by lowering
your level down to "housewife-niveau", to a simple level?
CarlzimC:Juergen, they're brainwashed.
Iroll245:
Or are they simply not interested in anything off their stringent path?
panta98: Disinterest
in anything emancipatory is a result of brainlaundering. Any brain that
still is a brain, and that has still a minimum of thinking functions would
understand me very easily. There is nobody so deaf as somebody who does
not want to hear! Or, as a result of manipulation and indoctrination, that
has lost all hearing faculties!
juttaschmi:Franz
can go to any level required, Jürgen, and make himself understood.
That is really not his problem. The problem lies in the limits, in the
mind barriers of the ideological and religious mesmerization of the students,
of their economic, political and social environment. They are not to be
blamed, they do not know this; you cannot even explain this to them, because
then you question their whole life contents until now, that is, they'll
have to begin from "scratch" again. And, who would guide them?
juttaschmi:A
heavy, heavy burden, ridiculously as it seems, Roman Catholicism a la Latin
America.
Iroll245:I
know Jutta - it was just a small provocation.
Iroll245:I
just found out that my knowledge of Venezuelan society is very poor.
CarlzimC:They're mind controlled.
Why are they perpetually hysterical?
juttaschmi:OK,
no problem, Jürgen. In any case, I have seen Franz speak to each and
everybody of any imaginable "social strata", and establish communication
on their respective levels.
panta98:To
express it formal-logically, the problem is that either the brains
af billions are still "under-developed", never ever had a chance to function,
that they are only running at a 1% capacity, as a reslt of a miserable
"education",
or, that they have already been destroyed, 99%
of their gray matter, through ferocious education, mind-laundering, brain-washing,
ideology, manipulation, indoctrination. I think probably the latter could
be the case.
juttaschmi:The
further "advanced" students are in their studies; the more difficult it
is, to get the "education poison" out of their brains.
CarlzimC:The live in a Medieval
culture - lost in time.
juttaschmi:So
to speak, Carl.
panta98:That's
why, no matter what I explain, I will not be understood. How would they
understand: for example, the following: I am, I still don't
exist, that's why I emancipate myself! This sentence is simple,
is like learning English grammar for the first time, and yet, they won't
understand anything about it. Not even "I am", because this presupposes:
Know Thyself!
Iroll245:It's
hard for me to understand. Like Ödön v. Horvath's "Fisch" in
his novel "Jugend ohne Gott", I cannot stand a single day without input.
Maybe I'm the freak!
juttaschmi:On
the other hand, people desperately stick to their ideology, customs and
traditions, and do not dare to question anything at all. If you took their
mind cages away from them, they would not survive a single day.
panta98:Well,
this sounds like "Juergen ohne Gott", Juergen Without God!
CarlzimC:In Buenos Aires, most
people are 1/2 Spanish, 1/2 Italian. Drink matte, a caffeinated herbal
tea to become more hysterical.
juttaschmi:Carl!
Are you not a Matte drinker yourself? I have never noted you histerical!
;-)
juttaschmi:(Confession:
I like Matte, too!)
Iroll245:Me
too.
FAREWELL, UNTIL NEXT TIME
....
panta98:Well,
folks, I have had a hard day. Next week we will continue. We have to digest
all what we have learned tonight first.
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Franz. I have to establish a radio contact with my brother in ten minutes
anyway.
panta98:It
was a very, great pleasure, Juergen. We will welcome you to assist as many
chats as you could visit.
CarlzimC:Yep, lemon counteracts
the caffeine.
Iroll245:B.t.w.
Franz: ohne Gott??? I call myself a "Fröhlicher Agnostiker" - a jolly
agnosticist.
panta98:I
will send you all just now the complete original chat -- tomorrow I'll
edit it for the other folks.
juttaschmi:Alright
then, gentlemen! I wish everybody a "good" night.
Iroll245:I
would love to. Whenever I'm not out doing my acapella singing I promise
to join in. Thany for the wonderful evening Jutta, Franz and Carl
juttaschmi:See
you next Tuesday.
CarlzimC:A pleasure to meet
your Jurgen, Hope you'll attend next week.
panta98:Carl,
it was excellent.
Iroll245: "Good"
night.
panta98:You
are always welcome, Juergen.
CarlzimC:See you all next Tuesday.
Frgan sends her regards.
panta98: "Goeie"
Nag, Carl!
panta98:See
you next week!
CarlzimC:Gute Nacht, all.
juttaschmi:Welcome,
Jürgen. Good night, all.
panta98: Await
the whole chat in two parts, it's coming just now!
CarlzimC: Wa alaikum salam
panta98: Bye!
Jutta.
panta98: Greetings
to Fran, Carl.
juttaschmi: Wa
alaikum salam. See you just now, Franz.
;-)
panta98: Also,
to Heike, Juergen!
juttaschmi: *signing
off*
panta98: signing
off!
panta98:Roger,
over and out!
juttaschmi has left
the room.
Iroll245 has left the
room.
CarlzimC has left the room.
-----ooo-----