Carl (Teaneck, USA)
Stella (Mainz, Germany)
Frances (Ingolstadt, Germany)
Matt (Philadelphia, USA)
Jutta (Merida, Venezuela)
Franz (Merida, Venezuela)
Space, Time, Labour, Emancipation XIII
RACISM, LABOUR AND HOMO SAPIENS SAPIENS
17th April, 2001
SLIGHTLY EDITED, ORIGINAL VERSION
( Please take
the remaining typographic errors as Pandemonium Greetings;
it absorbs too much valuable "time" to correct them all! Chats, by their
very nature, are not perfect scientific treatises.)
http://franzjutta.org franzjutta@cantv.net http://www.franzjutta.com
To read previous Chats:
http://www.oocities.org/Athens/Academy/8545/chats.html
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAYING HI!
You have just entered room "panta98
Chat13."
naranjahit has entered the room.
panta98:Hi!
Inviting Jutta.
You have just
entered room "panta98 Chat13."
panta98:Chat
13 -- eine schoene Nummer fuer AOL-Fratzen!!
naranjahit:
na das fängt ja wieder gut an, alle fallen raus.....
CarlzimC has entered the room.
naranjahit:
HI Carl, nice to meet you!
juttaschmi:You
bet, Franz. Let your neurons play, apart from your Kopfschmerz!
panta98:Yes,
Kopfdummheit!
juttaschmi:Thank
you, Jürgen. We will tell her.
panta98:There
we go, folks!!!
juttaschmi:Kopfschmerz,
Weltschmerz, there we go!
naranjahit:
Ok
lets start.
CarlzimC:Please
introduce the chat, Franz
juttaschmi:Wow,
Stella. Have you joined the neo(n)-greens now?
CarlzimC:Webschmerz
juttaschmi:Franz,
please proceed with your introduction.
THE HEAT IS ON!
panta98:It
is strange indeed that today we will occupy ourselves with something so
mundane as the "human being". In which way are our previous chats related
to this historic phenomenon?
juttaschmi:Netschmerz,
right Carl.
panta98:After
all, everybody "is" a "human being"; and anybody "knows" or "believes to
know" what it is all about; so why waste time debating such a self-evident
issue?
CarlzimC:I
will save chat log
panta98:What
do you all think?
juttaschmi:In
many ways, Franz. We repeatedly stated, that for the ruling classes, the
"elites", the illuminati, not everything that has two legs and two arms
is considered a "human being".
CarlzimC:I
think a human is a compromise between a photograph (point in history) and
continuity
juttaschmi:The
billions are rather considered pawns on a chessboard, in an economic, military
and political respect.
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta. Let's see what I have up my sleeve.
CarlzimC:human
being
Iroll245:I
myself feel much more like a hunted animal these days.....
juttaschmi:How
comes, Jürgen?! Who is haunting you??
CarlzimC:I
feel like a perpetual exile
juttaschmi:The
global economic elite, with their plans of fusion, of merging into ever
larger companies?
Iroll245:duties,
responsilbilities, tasks.....
naranjahit:labour
I guess is the haunter
panta98:The
irony of the whole story is that the "absolute majority" of "human beings"
living on this planet do not have the foggiest idea about gnothi seauton,
about "Know Thyself!" Well, Juergen, let's go human-hunting!
juttaschmi:Why
so, Carl?
juttaschmi:You
name it, Stella. Labour is the ghost that haunts us all!
panta98:Stella,
change the green, it causes problems on the white!
juttaschmi:Carl,
you are certainly not an exile to us!
naranjahit:ok,
my
nice spring-green, is this better now?
CarlzimC:Because
we need to move from place to place, idea to idea - for emancipation
Iroll245:damned
right, Stella
juttaschmi:Army
green, Stella. ;-)
naranjahit:yes!
panta98:Yes,
Stella, Labour is the "Haunted House", Home, Sweet Home!
juttaschmi:I
understand, Carl.
CarlzimC:Of
course, I'm not an exile to you all
panta98:Yes,
that's the colour!
CarlzimC:We
are all exiles
panta98:Talking
about the "idea", this is what will occupy our deliberations this evening.
Are we all "human beings"? Do all of us "think"? Do we have brand new "ideas"?
naranjahit:interesting
idea Carl.
juttaschmi:WE
are the aliens they are looking for. ;-)
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Jutta
panta98:Proceeding
... Generally speaking, Man, the "human being", homo sapiens sapiens supposedly
is the only species on earth that "thinks", that can formulate "ideas",
that can develop "philosophical thought".
juttaschmi:I
think my thinking has seen better "times", Franz.
juttaschmi:That
is what they say, Franz. The "Crown of Creation" is the only thing on this
planet that is able to think, so they say. What an arrogance, my country(wo)men.
CarlzimC:I
was born and spent my youth in New York City, a city of exiles
naranjahit:mine
too, Jutta.
panta98:Proceeding
.... Specifically speaking: "The negro race is a species of men as different
from ours as the breed of spaniels is from that of grey-hounds. ... "
panta98:And,
even more precisely: "If their understanding is not of a different nature
from ours, it is at least greatly inferior. ... "
panta98:And,
brought to the crucial point: "They are not capable of any great application
or association of ideas, and seem formed neither for the advantages nor
the abuses of philosophy."
juttaschmi:Stella,
you always have been a very sharp and clever head to me! Remember: "Dahinter
steckt immer ein kluger Kopf!"
naranjahit:thank
you Jutta ;-)
panta98:How,
do you like that?
juttaschmi:This
sounds like Voltaire or Montesquieu or even Hegel, Franz.
CarlzimC:Excellent,
Franz.
panta98:Folks,
this is not a Nazi, not Goebbels speaking, this is French Revolutionary
Bourgeois-Democratic Capitalist Enlightenment, this is the European "Conscience
of Tolerance", this is the Transatlantic slave dealer, Voltaire (1694 -
1778).
Iroll245:Personally
I "think" it doesn't have to be a brand new idea to manifest your humanity.
Old ones may also be worth being thought over.... as long as we think at
all
juttaschmi:I
thought so! The "wisecracks", the all so adored European thinkers! Their
racist remarks have been neatly hidden from the scholarly textbooks.
CarlzimC:Marcuse,
Lukacs, Adorno?
panta98:Agreed,
Juergen! True, Carl.
juttaschmi:Jürgen,
agreed, as long as we don't just "chew" on the old ideas but bring them
to life, into their transhistorical context.
Iroll245:that's
what I meant...
juttaschmi:Okay.
Agreed, Jürgen.
panta98:Proceeding
.....For 85% of the world population of over 6 billion who "think" that
the "human being" is defined by means of its spirituality, and who believe
that they are "human beings", simply because they possess a "soul" or "spirit",
well, here I have another bitter "sweetie" for all of them.
juttaschmi:Let's
see that sweetie, Franz.
panta98:"It
is almost unthinkable that God, who is all goodness itself, could have
determined to place a soul - let alone a good soul - in a body as black
and repulsive as that of a negro."
CarlzimC:So
let's move on to non-European thinkers - Haroun Al Rashid, Mafouz, Avicenna,
Maimonedes
panta98:Well,
guys, folks, lads, pals, this is not some communist atheist, Marx, Stalin,
Trotsky, Castro or Bin Laden speaking! Guess which "classic" bourgeois,
capitalist author wrote this?
juttaschmi:This
sounds like Montesquieu, Franz. - And Carl: women have not been considered
to be humans by most of the big thinkers either, European and non-European.
panta98:Yes,
Jutta. ... Another one from the Capitalist Enlightenment, another political
theorist of the Great French Revolution, of future Imperialism and Globalization,
His Truly Charles Louis de Secondat, Baron de la Brède et de Montesquieu
(1689 - 1775).
juttaschmi:Women
have been considered slaves, animals, breeding machines and I don't know
what. - Franz, in times of the European capitalist expansion towards overseas,
racism was a welcome ultima ratio in order to justify the atrocities and
the greed of the European Invadors.
CarlzimC:My
late father, an American of German descent, didn't favour French philosophers
juttaschmi:Your
father had a point in not favoring them, Carl.
panta98:We
will come to "racism" just now -- a topic that was out in the "Bush" campaign!
juttaschmi:However,
the German philosophers were not that much better ...
CarlzimC:And
cheap labor and raw materials, Franz
panta98:Proceeding
... And, seeing that it was the time of the "international division of
labour", of the capitalist-imperialist "world market", let us see what
all this has to do with the very superstructure of our "World Order", with
its Ideology, with Racism.
Iroll245:the
transhistorical aspect of Baron de la Brède is surely the surroundings
(topographicly) he lived in. Red vignobles and Carps at his fingertips...
juttaschmi:Exactly
so, Carl.
CarlzimC:Montescrew
panta98:yes,
Juergen. It could have come from Thurn & Taxis too.
juttaschmi:Isn't
this rather a spatial aspect, Jürgen?
Iroll245:good
point, Franz
panta98:The
real founder of the "race" doctrine, later developed as an ideology, was
the Swedish natural scientist, Carl Von Linné. In the tenth revised
edition of his famous book, "Systema Naturae", in 1758, he divided the
human species into four major "races", according to physical, psychological
and social features: Indians, Europeans, Asiatics, and Negroes.
juttaschmi:And
he surely described their "characters", too, Franz?
CarlzimC:Sadam
Hussein's son has become a rock star. He may be the next ruler of Iraq.
panta98:The
concept "race", in its current use, appeared for the first time in 1684.
The French medical doctor and traveller Francois Bernier, wrote about "four
or five races of people, whose differences are so obvious, that by right
these should be used as the basis for a new division of the world."
juttaschmi:"Character"
expressed in racial terms, so as to disqualify some races and favour others.
panta98:Thus,
in a formal-logical world, suddenly, everybody was "differentiating", was
underlining the "obvious", the "evident".
CarlzimC:Bernier
knew nothing of genetics
panta98:...
under-lining ... emphasizing ....
CarlzimC:Believing
bullscheisse
panta98:Nothing
of Mendel or Mengele, Carl!
juttaschmi:The
"racial" differences or features were made up of appearances then, Carl,
not of genetics.
juttaschmi:Appearances
and supposed "characteristics", "inborn" characteristics of the "races".
panta98:Yes,
Jutta. Look at this. ...Even Karl Marx had a somewhat negative attitude
towards the marriage of his daughter, Laura, to the light-skinned, black
Cuban socialist, Paul Lafargue.
panta98:He
gave him the "pet name", "le bastard", "el Negrillo", etc. Ferdinand Lasalle's
"negroid features" were also a subject of derision; Marx called him a "Jewish
Nigger", and for him, it was "perfectly obvious" that "the way his hair
grows, that he is descended from Negroes."
juttaschmi:Sadly
and historically so, Franz.
panta98:Now,
what a man say???
Iroll245:Something
the people could sense, see smell, taste always frightened them - as long
as it is unknown - alien
juttaschmi:So,
even the "great emancipators" were racists in the final analysis.
juttaschmi:Jürgen,
an old, Swabian proverb says: Was dr Bauer ned kennt, frißt er ned.
That is the alien factor in Swabia! ;-)
CarlzimC:Jutta,
I'm saying he didn't know all humans have similar genes
juttaschmi:Thanks
for clarification, Carl.
panta98:To
the "alien" we'll come just now, Juergen -- be patient!
panta98:proceeding
... What was "perfectly obvious", ever since the "speaking tools" of Aristotle
till bourgeois-democratic Enlightenment and Socialism, nowadays it is not
even permitted to mention the word "race", except as the uniform, glorious
"human race", composed of over 6 billion lovely "human beings".
juttaschmi:Strange,
Franz. Does this have to do with Newspeak, "Newthink"?
CarlzimC:They
were racists because they served colonialism/imperialism, including Marx
juttaschmi:Exactly
so, Carl.
panta98:Now,
let's get to the "matrix" of the issue. ....
panta98:Across
the millennia, we just need to study the self-reflection of all labour
ideologues and "philosophers", and then we will have a perfect picture
of the "human being", of the slave master, of the philosopher-king, ...
panta98:...
of "Il Principe", of "Il Duce", of "Big Brother", of the "Illuminati",
and then we surely would notice that 99% of current humanity are disqualified
from the sonorous species homo sapiens sapiens.
juttaschmi:The
"human being" they made everyone "believe" in was always the ruling human
being, and not the exploited, oppressed, discriminated one.
Iroll245:Isn't
this the greatest advantage of our "new" society nowadays? Distances have
no meaning anymore, we know more "different" people than our ancestors
could even imagine, so we are no longer afraid like the Swabian Baur was?
panta98:That's
it, Jutta.
juttaschmi:The
ruling class always have seen and treated themselves as human beings.
CarlzimC:In
the Mideast, the Islamicists thought their existence was complete, and
the European oil interests took advantage of this
panta98:Well,
Juergen, the "Bauernweisheiten" remain, the Bimbos too, Struwwelpeter also.
Iroll245:Ok
- blue eyed a bit but......
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Jürgen. The very moment a Swabian Baur goes online today, he widenes
his/her horizon and the alien world gets ever smaller.
CarlzimC:Saddam's
son owns a rock FM station in Iraq.
panta98:Der
Neger kann doch nichts dafuer, dass er schwarz ist!
Iroll245:So
let Rock'n Roll rule, Carl!
CarlzimC:D'accord,
Jurgen.
panta98:Oh,
Lonesome Me. I come to this just now!
juttaschmi:Franz,
der Bauer kann doch nichts dafür, daß er Mad Cows frißt.
juttaschmi:(The
peasant is not to blame for having to eat Mad Cows).
juttaschmi:But,
please proceed.
panta98:Proceeding
... Hundred thousands of years ago, chimpanzees, gorillas, orangoutangs,
Neanderthal Men, Homo sapiens sapiens, etc., were living peacefully together
on this god forlorn planet, and, because they shared nearly 90 % of their
genes, they had beautiful, wonderful "inter-racial" babies.
panta98:They
did not even notice the "perfectly obvious", the "difference" which Science
is giving to them today!
juttaschmi:The
original, common gene-pool!
panta98:Yes,
Jutta.
CarlzimC:Let
em eat cake. Bring back Marie Antoinette (woman philosopher) 8-)
juttaschmi:The
lady lost her head, Carl. Eating cake didn't help. ;-)
panta98:Meanwhile,
it is perfectly obvious and evident, that on this planet not only the "human
race", homo sapiens sapiens, is existing, but that new "races", that "aliens"
are here, are coming into being at top speed; ...
panta98:...
are living "parallel" to each other, in "parallel worlds", for example,
some non-thinking species like homo speaking-tool, homo negro, homo faber,
homo ignoramus, homo intellectualis, homo alpha et omega; or even some
transhistoric, transcending species, living in "related worlds", like homo
emancipatoris, etc.
Iroll245:Ahhh,
the global race to come??
CarlzimC:or
Bubulina, Albanian woman, Admiral in the Greek navy, fought the Turks in
1870's.
CarlzimC:The
first known woman Admiral
juttaschmi:I
suggest the following differentiation: Homo laboris physicaliensis, homo
laboris intellectualiensis, homo rationalis.
Iroll245:And
homo rockenrollis, Jutta! :-)
CarlzimC:Jutta,
nwoschweinehundis.
panta98:Stella,
not only Stella-Bohnen, also femme stellaris!
juttaschmi:How
could I forget, Jürgen! And also Homo internet chatiensis.
panta98:That's
a new species, Stella: femme stellaris.
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Carl. Homo illuminatensis.
naranjahit:Franz,
hey!
juttaschmi:That
makes at least seven different species!
naranjahit:Homo
participantes observatoriensis, hehehe.
Iroll245:I
love differences, don't you too?
juttaschmi:Homo
consumiensis, homo artificiensis, homo participant observiensis, etc. etc....
panta98:Proceeding.
...What is "sapient" or "thinking" for the one, not necessarily is universal
for all. What is "intellect" or "intellectual", or "intellectual labour
and property" for the one, does not correspond with the attributes of another.
This is perfectly obvious, is self-evident!
panta98:"Man"
on Earth is differentiated, is different. Some are "mortal", some are "immortal",
others are neither mortal nor immortal. Some are "white", others are "black",
others don't know their place in society, they are neither white nor black,
are "bastards", "rebels", "Jewish Niggers", "terrorists".
CarlzimC:Rock
and rollers may colonize outer space - rocketerollis;-)
juttaschmi:Yet,
they made everybody "believe" that A=A, thinking = thinking, human being
= human being, Franz.
panta98:To
"space colonization and settlement" I'll come just now, Carl.
panta98:Talking
about making history, about "development", about "racism", Hegel was even
more explicit: ...
panta98:"Africa
... is not a historic global region; it manifests no motion, no development.
..."
panta98:"What
is characteristic of a Negro is that his consciousness did not develop
towards an understanding of any concrete objectivity. "
panta98:Here
we have obviously perfect, self-evident "racist" arguments of even, uneven
and combined development of the "human race", of the "human species".
juttaschmi:Yes,
these are the words of the "biggest" philosopher überhaupt, of G.W.F.
Hegel in his Philosophy of History!
naranjahit:That
is interesting stuff Franz!
Iroll245:A
child of his times, for sure - but still a reference - that's the problem!
panta98:Yes,
Stella, read your Hegel!
juttaschmi:Reason,
for Hegel, comes to realize itself in Europe, nowhere else.
panta98:And
your Goethe!
CarlzimC:We
have misconceptions Franz. Che was not accepted in black Africa because
he was white. Also, he wanted the Soviets and Eastern Europe to support
revolution in Africa and Latin America. Quite naive.
juttaschmi:Reason
awakens in the Far East, blossoms in Ancient Greece and ripens in Germania!
panta98:Franz
was not accepted in Nigeria, he was not Black enough!
juttaschmi:Racism
the other way round, Carl.
juttaschmi:But
still racism.
CarlzimC:Racism
is a disease
juttaschmi:Social
discrimination of a person for economic reasons.
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Jutta
juttaschmi:And
racism is also a disease, agreed Carl.
panta98:Proceeding
... All across Labour "History", Man was simply a "racist", has identified
himself as the "Crown Of Creation", as a member of the "Aryan Race", of
the "Herrenvolk".
panta98:And,
nowadays, if somebody should apply these very same criteria, identifying
"Man", as the "Lord of the Jungle", and the rest as his "speaking tools",
then surely he would be ostracized as a "fascist", "terrorist", "elitist"
or "nazi".
juttaschmi:Indeed,
Franz. If somebody discovers the secret of the ruling classes and applies
it in his/her analyisis, (s)he is disqualified as a "racist", "fascist",
etc.
naranjahit:racism
is no disease, it is a pillar of the system, it works perfectly great.
panta98:Yes,
Jutta ... There are more things, more species, on Earth and in Heaven than
are dreamt of in our mind-controlled ideology! Very strange realities "live"
side by side on this planet and in our Milky Way! Some we may perceive,
about others we do not have any smoggy Platonic "idea".
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Stella. Racism is one of the central pillars of the system, that guarantees
"divide et impera" and the control of the wretched of the earth.
CarlzimC:Identity
crisis in the Mideast today. They ask, Are we white, black or 1/2 &
1/2? Sad, because Islam is not a racist religion.
panta98:Yes,
Stella, it is perfectly obvious, self-evident!
juttaschmi:Racism
is also a powerful ideological tool to prevent people from detecting the
real causes of their historic misery, Carl and Stella.
panta98:proceeding
... Now, we could see more clearly the different levels, degrees and mensions
of being and existence of the "human race", of the "human being" on Planet
Earth.
Iroll245:I
think it is racist, Carl - as soon as it gets extreme, like the Taliban!
naranjahit:yes
Jutta
CarlzimC:The
present USA-China spy plane conflict is racial in origin.
panta98:The
"human race" itself is transhistoric; seen as such, it is not a static
conglomerate of fixed, formal-logical, zigzag, tictac entities.
juttaschmi:Africans
think their major historical problem is racism, and they have not a clue
about the real, historical problem, that is, the constitution of the world
market or the international division of labour.
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta. ... As the same "racist" Hegel pointed out: The Whole One is the
True One! It has intensive, internal non-relations; although "non", yet
nevertheless rest-relations. "A" is non-related to its very own "non-A".
Iroll245:The
masses haven't had the chance to see so far, Jutta!
CarlzimC:That
A and no-A don't exist
juttaschmi:Sadly
so, Jürgen. This is, what education for the masses is all about: prevent
them from seeing, what the real deal is!
panta98:The
masses only see what has been programmed in their nut-shells.
Iroll245:agreed!
CarlzimC:Brainwashing,
Jutta
juttaschmi:Brainwashing,
Carl, exactly. Mind Control, ideology.
panta98:Yes,
Carl & Jutta. ... That Marcuse remarked that: The Whole One is the
False One! Well, that is another truth about this sonorous species! Although
"false", nevertheless it is the whole "non-A", also at rest, also resting
in peace.
juttaschmi:"The
clouded mind sees nothing", Carl.
juttaschmi:And
the clouds are being carefully built up by the education system.
panta98:Jutta,
not even when the radio-active rain is gone!
panta98:Proceeding
... a crucial question ... Now, how do all these relate to Reich's Orgone,
to Tesla's "Free Energy", to the "Pentagon Aliens", to "Occult Ether Physics",
to "Flying Saucers", and to"Moon and Mars Settlements"?
juttaschmi:True,
Franz. Whether named "false" or "true" - these are the two sides of the
same, monstruous thing.
juttaschmi:Well,
Reich, Tesla, Bill Lyne etc. transcend the formal logical "horizon", Franz.
CarlzimC:Franz,
all emancipatory influences are hidden from humanity.
panta98:D'accord!
Jutta.
juttaschmi:D'accord,
Carl!
panta98:Agreed,
Carl.
panta98:Stella,
your brain wave?
panta98:Juergen:
your "Weisheit"?
naranjahit:brain
wave is going to bed it seems, Franz
;-)
juttaschmi:Whatever
transcends the formal logical horizon, that is, our everyday "analysis"
or "experiences" is unconceivable to us. (Not really, but I am saying this
for pedagogical reasons. ;-)
)
panta98:Well,
let me wake it up!
juttaschmi:Stella,
take a ride and surf on you brain waves!!
panta98:Stella,
here we go !!!!
panta98:A
central concept of "Rest", of our closed, formal-logical, spatial-temporal
A-System is ENERGY. And, its "crisis" is related to "energy"; without "energy",
the whole system, and everything in it "dies", it loses its "energy", gives
up its "ghost"; its "spirit" leaves the scene.
naranjahit:Jutta,
so join the pedagogical club, welcome, hehehe.
Iroll245:It's
the "missing privilege" of wealth. Have wealth and you have the opportunity
to learn. Learn and you grow... so it's all reduced to the labour-world
again!
panta98:Awake
now.
CarlzimC:It
already gave up "time."
juttaschmi:Energy
= Work in terms of the system. - Glad to join the pedagogical club, Stella!
You are the master, however.
panta98:and
here, Stella?
juttaschmi:Agreed
to your statement above, Jürgen.
panta98:Stella
... In spite of all the sweet talk about "advanced technology", "modern
science", "soul food", "immortal spirits", man endemically suffers from
energyphobia.
panta98:As
absolutist patriarch, Man permanently is violating his own mother, Nature,
thus generating Labour. He is being haunted by severe pathological, formal-logical
schizophrenia, xenophobia and alienophobia.
Iroll245:What
if man recognizes that Tesla was somehow right - and energy is free! At
least your own mental energy?
panta98:Did
you guys give up the ghost?
CarlzimC:He
will be consumed by animal and human disease, earthquakes and storms.
panta98:I'll
come to that just now, Juergen!
juttaschmi:Back
to the energy-problem, Franz. It seems that each and every "Stoffwechsel"
on this planet is a constant change of one form of energy into another
one.
panta98:You
are on the "right" trail!
Iroll245:that's
the clear truth, Jutta!
juttaschmi:Yet,
as we were told, there is no such thing as a "perpetuum mobile", due to
the Energieerhaltungssatz in classical physics.
panta98:You
got your nose on the "Pudelskern", Jutta.
juttaschmi:This
also is a problem related to the Kältetod/Wärmetod (entropy)
of the universe ..
juttaschmi:...
seen as a CLOSED system however.
CarlzimC:However,
all are using Tesla free enegy, and most are unaware.
panta98:Proceeding
.... In delirium, power-crazy, egoistically he is looking everywhere for
joy, for happiness, for love, for "utopias", for a "Happy End", for "Heaven",
for "Communism", for "Wonderland", for "Paradise Lost", for "Democracy",
for "Peace", ... and he finds none, nothing.
Iroll245:It
only depends on the vector your energy is targeted on!
juttaschmi:The
premise for the postulate of the conservation of energy in classical physics
is a CLOSED system, a system at rest. What, if it "moves" in its totality?!
CarlzimC:However,
the universe is an open system
panta98:As
a result of Labour, he is neutralizing a simple, natural-social, historic
relation, and is thus alienating himself from himself, from anything else,
is catapulting himself out of cosmic-ontic existence, with no chance whatsoever
of ever being able to transcend transhistorically.
juttaschmi:Or
it could be neither closed nor open, Carl.
CarlzimC:That
may change, Franz.
CarlzimC:Definitely
not closed, Jutta.
panta98:The
essence of the system, closed, static, at rest ... The non-relation which
he had created, the loneliness, the oneness, the unity, the alienation,
directly cuts his natural umbilical cord, and he becomes parasitic, formal-logically
exploiting real, true relations as "Energy".
juttaschmi:Completely
agreed, Franz. The notion of the system or the universe as being "closed"
or "at rest" is a direct result of the labour process, Franz. ...
Iroll245:In
search of the "KICK"???
panta98:Yes,
Juergen, the "baby" now kicks in death agony!
juttaschmi:The
unilateral non-relation society/nature produces formal logics as the seemingly
"natural" way of thinking, with all the flaws and shortcomings mentioned.
panta98:Proceeding
....
panta98:For
these reasons, all the natural and social "relations" in the New World
Order are thing relations, egoistic relations, parasitic relations and
quid pro quo relations.
panta98:Man
claims to produce "energy", and yet he just vegetates on perverse "energy",which
is the non-relation of the real, true historic Relation, the Bezug, Nature
a n d Society.
juttaschmi:(Stella,
read your Kant, Fichte and Hegel, to get a glance at dialectics, and also
read Franz' trabajo de ascenso.)
panta98:In
previous chats, the latter we have described as Emancipatory Fire or Reich's
Orgone.
panta98:Further
comments?
naranjahit:Jutta
I will do so. *body is following brain-wave to bed*, guys, I'm going offline!
Until next time!
juttaschmi:Oh!
Stella. I'm so sorry you have to leave.
CarlzimC:Energy
has been used to explain the "equilibrium" of the economic "independent"
supply and demand curves, but they are not independent of each other, and
this equilibrium never exists
panta98:OK!
Stellalein. We'll miss you. Gute Nacht!!!
juttaschmi:We
will send you the transcript. Have a good night sleep and thanks for coming!
juttaschmi:We
miss you!!
Iroll245:I'm
glad Stella - ein paar Tage Urlaub....... Gute Nacht.
naranjahit:Kant-FS
tomorrow, I miss you too!
CarlzimC:Gute
Nacht, Stella. Schlafen sie wohl.
naranjahit
has left the room.
juttaschmi:
Interesting
comment, Carl, about the non-existing "equilibrium". Equilibrium, per se,
is rest.
CarlzimC:Rest
doesn't exist.
panta98:Motion
also not, Carl.
CarlzimC:Perpetual
interactions
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Franz.
juttaschmi:Franz,
so what they call "energy" is sort of a parasitism?!
panta98:So
we have Neither Rest Nor Motion!
Iroll245:I
think the Homo "NWOSchweinehundis" (thanx Carl) per se is at rest. Spinning
in circles without feeling the need for evolution, revolution...
juttaschmi:You
are so damn right, Jürgen!
panta98:Yes,
Jutta.
CarlzimC:Yep,
Jurgen
juttaschmi:Spinning
in circles equals being at rest!
panta98:At
any rate, Man's "Energy" is running out, it is reaching the nadir and zenith
of its "crisis"; it tends towards Rest, towards "Global Stability", towards
"Reconciliatory Democracy", towards solid, consolidated, outdated "Rest
In Peace".
juttaschmi:It
definitely tends towards "Rest in Peace", Franz!
panta98:Yes,
Jutta, in e-circles!
juttaschmi:No
doubts about that one.
juttaschmi:Even
e-circles has come to rest in peace.
panta98:Proceeding
.... However, the existence of Labour, of Alienation, of Man in History
is not a divine curse, is not absolution for Man's "Original Sin". It's
not a moral or normative issue. He is not a devil, evil, vile or servile.
Also, he is not an angel, saint, good, a good or a god. It is not "good
or bad" to be a "man", to be a "human being".
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Franz. This is not a matter of ethics.
panta98:Jutta,
... The point is: Man, know thyself! And, therewith you will know others;
you will learn to differentiate yourself from others, not as "Non-A", not
as "Non-Man", but as Emancipation, as History, as "B".
juttaschmi:It
is a matter of "kühle Bestandsaufnahme" - cool grasping of the facts.
juttaschmi:Beautifully
said, Franz.
panta98:To
emancipate to "Kenntlichkeit"!
juttaschmi:The
German philosopher Ernst Bloch remarked, that things tend to change towards
their Kenntlichkeit, and not towards their Unkenntlichkeit.
juttaschmi:(Kenntlichkeit
= recognizability, Unkenntlichkeit = non-recognizability)
panta98:Proceeding
... He called "others" speaking tools, niggers, coolies, terrorists, but
they are part and parcel of himself, they are his very own "non-A", his
"private property"; via his education, he taught them to "think"; they
are his private "intellectual property".
CarlzimC:Excellent,
Franz
panta98:Carl,
and more. ... It's true that we all are "human beings", that we all form
the "human race", "A". But, all over, transhistorically, there also exist
other beings, "B's" and "C's", and "Z's", and who knows what all?! What
all together and asunder?!
Iroll245:
Pooh...
that takes some time to settle....
juttaschmi:Take
your time, Jürgen. I always have to read the chat over and over again
after we have finished it, because in the fleeting moment of the chat itself,
many things are said and remarked, that merit further pondering.
panta98:Yes,
Juergen, thinking is not "window-shopping"!
Iroll245:
never
thought so :-)
panta98:Agreed,
Juergen!
panta98:Juergen
... The problem is not to be Man, not to be a labouring animal, au contraire,
it is to be ONLY that and nothing more. This is alienation; this is being
an Alien. this is the real Alien. This is a Pentagon Alien, who needs a
"Flying Carpet", a "Flying Saucer", a "Flying Corpse", a "Flying Soul"!
juttaschmi:
That
is the result of "know thyself", Franz.
juttaschmi:(This
relates to your statement further above)
juttaschmi:(AOL-slow
burn effect)
panta98:And,
Jutta, knowing thyself means the following ... Whatever has been said about
aliens till now is a perfect self-projection, a Non-A of Man Himself. He
is alone, alone with all his "aliens", "spirits" "souls" and "ghosts";
he is a relationless, non-relational, lonely, lonesome entity.
CarlzimC:Not
being alienated from ourselves is the key.
Iroll245:OK
- my facit: know thyself means also to open up yourself to the others -
to let them know theirselves, to feel, tolerate and accept the differentiation!
Iroll245:Openess
is the key!
juttaschmi:And
not being alienated from ourselves is knowing ourselves, Carl, identifying
ourselves AND differentiating ourselves from others.
panta98:Yes,
Carl, but no master-key, not even a "Slave Master" PC key!
juttaschmi:
If
they can see the difference, Jürgen ...
juttaschmi:...
because "others" often see you through their very own eyes and thus see
nothing at all.
Iroll245:lyric,
Jutta
juttaschmi:Indeed,
Jürgen.
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Franz, Jutta, Jurgen.
panta98:Continuing,
knowing Man .... He forms a mundane, egoistic lonely crowd, the labouring
species homo sapiens sapiens, "society", who hates and destroys anything
else, including itself.
CarlzimC:Objective
through biased eyes
panta98:His
quintessence : ... What he does not know in his solitary universe, and
would never ever learn to know, is that de facto et de jure in transgalactic
poliversal outlook we are truly and really NOT ALONE. To look for uni-versal
"life" anywhere, elsewhere, is just to look in-wardly at Man himself, created
according to his God's image and likeness.
juttaschmi:
So
they have to look for Poli-versal life, Franz!
panta98:Agreed?
Iroll245:amen
-not to end it - but in it's true sense.
panta98:They
have to look for Neither Life Nor Death!
CarlzimC:Humans
were not created in anyone's image.
Iroll245:Why
not? Funny idea!
juttaschmi:They
are looking for the same stupid thing they already have "on earth", Franz.
They won't ever "see" anything else than that, what they themselves are:
homo cancer cellularis.
panta98:Carl,
coming to your topic before ... He could settle on the Moon, colonize Mars,
but he cannot leave the lonesome world of labour, and he cannot take alienated
labour out of his very lonely soul.
CarlzimC:He
can if emancipation is required to adapt to outer space.
CarlzimC:If
he must adapt to Nature out there
Iroll245:It's
the old circulus viciosus of work to live (think) or live to work (think)
juttaschmi:This
Frankenstein Creature, Homo laboris, is trapped in his eternal labour world.
He has awakened the labour "ghosts", and cannot control them anymore.
CarlzimC:Frankenstein's
mother was lightning (Nature)
CarlzimC:even
though his father was Dr. Frankenstein
panta98:Man
... He cannot transform himself into his opposite, -- that exists already;
he cannot even be neither himself nor exist his opposite -- also that transcends
right hic et nunc on Planet Earth! He is caught up in his uni-versality,
in his uni-queness, in his uni-formity!
panta98:Juergen
... be careful of a headache ... All these concern the even (level), uneven
(degree), combined and neither-nor (mension) transhistoric, transgalactic
relations.
juttaschmi:Never
mind trying to shift from earth to moon or mars or Signus A.
juttaschmi:Labouring
Man remains labouring man, according to his own formal logic.
panta98:Agreed,
Jutta.
Iroll245:Got
my pills always with me, don't worry!
juttaschmi:As
long as he labours, he is labouring man, whether on earth, moon, mars or
elsewhere.
juttaschmi:Hail
Prozac. ?!
panta98:Now
... Finally, why do things like "classified history", "hidden knowledge"
or "occult ether physics" exist? Who or what occults and, in the final
analysis, why?
panta98:Any
idea?
CarlzimC:Unless
he must be emancipated to survive
CarlzimC:Occult=hidden
juttaschmi:That
is the question, Franz. Why all this hide and seek game? Unless the ruling
classes know of something, that is worth hiding?!
panta98:Yes,
Jutta. .... Labour, the labour process, Man, is not some extrauniversal
perversity. It is not created by extraterrestrial aliens who are out there
to get us!
CarlzimC:They
hide this stuff for their advantage.
juttaschmi:Carl,
I partly agree with your statement above. Yet, an emanicpated being is
no homo labour anymore.
Iroll245:think
they exist as a simple form of pseudo-transcendence - the best homo laboriensis
can grasp with his limited mind.....
panta98:More
headaches, Juergen? ...As Non-Relation it is the Non of some Historic Relation.
As such it is just as Natural and Social as anything else on Earth, or
in the so-called Universe.
CarlzimC:Tesla
free energy powers our computers, but we pay for it.
CarlzimC:for
their profit
panta98:it
should power our brains!
Iroll245:that's
a good one!!
CarlzimC:Reich
free energy powers our brains, but most people are unaware.
Iroll245:I
mean "the brainpower".
panta98:From
bad to worse, Juergen ... This Non-Relation has four major cosmic-ontic
essences: Exploitation, Domination, Discrimination and Alienation. It is
not that only slave masters, nobles, clergy, capitalists, Illuminati or
communists practice these "evils".
CarlzimC:Reich=Tesla
free energy=ether electromagnetics
Iroll245:No
Franz, surely not! Everyone of us does so.
panta98:Any
comments, Jutta?
juttaschmi:Okay,
summing up: It always takes two to tango!
juttaschmi:Master
AND Slave, Oppressor AND Oppressed, Capital AND Labour, etc. etc.
juttaschmi:The
one is the none of the other, and vice versa.
panta98:And
here is the Last Waltz: The Schwanengesang: ....
panta98:They
themselves form the "A" of "A and Non-A". Without slaves, there are no
masters; without communists there are no capitalists. The whole bunch together
is the "evil", the "root of all evils". No Racism without Capitalism, and
vice versa. No Labour without Capital, and vice versa.
Iroll245:I
can see no good or bad in doing so, as long as you recognize manipulation
- no matter whether it's passive or active!<
juttaschmi:Take
Two! Take Five (Dave Brubeck)
Iroll245:dudi
kudi duid dudi dip - dap dap du!
panta98:Carl:
... As History, the exact opposite Relation of this Non-Relation (Labour)
exists -- as Nature a n d Society -- and it transcends, excels itself as
Emancipation. Otherwise, History and Emancipation would have no cosmic-ontic
"entelechy or teleology". There would be no translogical "reason" for historization
or emancipation.
panta98:Is
that the new emancipatory music, Juergen?
Iroll245:
yep
-all that's Jazz!
juttaschmi:
Shoobeedoobeedoowhap.
panta98:Proceeding
.... Thus, Labour, the Labour Process, the Process of Production, "History",
Man, all are composed of uni-dualistic, formal-logical sado-masochistic
non-relations: "Master, Slave"; "Landlord, Serf; Capitalist, Worker; Socialist,
Comrade; Man, Woman; White, Black; etc.
panta98:Again:
So, why "hiding" anything? With the dawn of "Reason", with the emergence
of "Capital", Labour became of age, full-blown, full-grown, became exploitation,
domination, discrimination, alienation per se.
juttaschmi:
In
other words, A, non-A. Forever imprinted in the brains of the toiling masses,
be it physical, be it intellectual labourers.
panta98:Per
definitionem, Reason, Labour itself, must lie, must distort, must rob,
must be corrupt, must annihilate itself, all its parts, all its essences,
including its physical and intellectual elements.
panta98:Yes,
Jutta.
panta98:Just
like Hegel's World Spirit, this Universal Viper is devouring, at first,
its tail, physis, Sensatio, Nature; then, its brains, Intellectus; and
finally, Ratio Itself, Reason itself. To accomplish its inexorable "historic
task", Reason, as Plato, Maquiavelli, Hobbes and Orwell had explained already,
must lie to itself, must hide historic truths, must bamboozle its physical
and intellectual victims.
juttaschmi:So
there we have the "culprit", Franz: Reason! Perhaps we should investigate
Reason in order to get a glimpse at the transhistoric realm!
CarlzimC:Orwell's
life except for Spanish Civil War experience was sheltered.
panta98:Yes,
Reason, alias Vernunft, alias Geist, alias Arbeit, alias Entfremdung, alias
Der Mensch!
panta98:Alias
Das Kapital!
juttaschmi:
Reason
has to have a certain "plus" vis a vis physical and intellectual labour.
Otherwise the "organisation" of economic exploitation, political oppression,
social discrimination and human alienation would not be effective.
CarlzimC:Most
of the philosophers we referred to here were sheltered
juttaschmi:What
do you mean by sheltered, Carl? Sheltered in what way?
Iroll245:
So
are we - at least I am.....:-)
panta98:That's
why it tells us that we are all "human beings", that all of us are "equal",and
that democracy is government of, by and for the people. Now, if these are
not lies, then even Satan would blush out of sheer shame! And yet, billions
believe in this indoctrinated hocus-pocus.
juttaschmi:
Ideology
at it's best, Franz.
panta98:This
is the reason why we have hidden historic truths, occult ether physics,
body and mind control, brain-washing, mind-laundering, religion and ideology.
CarlzimC:
Sheltered by family and friends. Supported with money, etc.
juttaschmi:Okay,
thanks for clarification, Carl.
panta98:This
should clarify the issue. Enough for now! Let's debate the issues!
CarlzimC:Orwell's
wife worked herself to death supporting him.
juttaschmi:Franz,
we have actually been debating throughout the chat.
juttaschmi:It
was one, continuous debate.
panta98:Well,
a few more bright ideas would not harm, what do you think, Juergen?
Iroll245:Yes
Franz, your fiery speech aginst labour and democracy carries a lot of truth
and wisdom but....
Iroll245:
Isn't
that all the perfect soil to breed the seeds like our chat, all of your
publications .... etc?
juttaschmi:The
remaining question is: how comes, that the ruling classes have been able
to indoctrinate, manipulate and control the wretched of the earth (physical,
and at a later point intellectual labourers) to a point of almost no return?
juttaschmi:What
do they fear, what do they know of, that is worth being hidden in such
a manner?
juttaschmi:What
else had Hegel known in order to perfectly close his dialectical, open-closed
logical system?
juttaschmi:What
is there beyond the labour process, that the ruling classes might have
knowledge of and are hiding?
juttaschmi:Why
an "energy crisis" when technically all the means to resolve it are "out
there", beyond the labour process?
Iroll245:
Power,
Jutta and the definite will to sustain it!
juttaschmi:
"Power",
Jürgen, and the logic of the process, of course.
CarlzimC:Jutta,
the NWO wants to control the energy-created phony energy crisis
juttaschmi:However,
the process itself tends towards its own annihilation, this is why we get
a glimpse at things that lie far beyond it.
CarlzimC:Yep,
Jutta
Iroll245:But
what's that all worth if they cannot even control our AOL? :-)))
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Jürgen! Big Brother has still many blank and weak spots!
Iroll245:If
there is nothing to reach anymore...even with the biggest profits, Jutta!
juttaschmi:There
is something they call the law of the sinking profit rate, Jürgen,
which has to do with ever faster introduction of technological innovation,
that is, the replacement of "living labour" with "dead labour", so to speak.
...
CarlzimC:One
of Big Brother's weaknesses is fear of exposure
CarlzimC:opening
his occults
Juttaschmi:First,
the physical labour on this planet has been gradually substituted by machines,
and this is why an ever larger number of physical labourers are doomed.
Secondly, the intellectual labourers will be replaced by machines, too.
juttaschmi:Only
if there is no more profits to be made would the introduction of a "new"
kind of "free energy" make sense!
Iroll245:Yep
Jutta, I read a good book on artificial Intelligence, but don't remember
the author. US with a German name...
juttaschmi:In
the end, if you have nothing left but machines, whom are you going to exploit?
Where does the profit, the surplus come from?
juttaschmi:Was
it Ray Kurzweil, Jürgen?
Iroll245:Danke!
juttaschmi:Welcome
;-)
Iroll245:The
answer could be 42:-)
juttaschmi:The
Age of Intelligent Machines!!
FRANCES PAYS A FLASH VISIT!
panta98:Juergen,
the "Black Panther" greets you; gives nice regards to you -- is sitting
here at my side!
panta98: She
says: "I hope to survive!"
Iroll245:As
long as she eats.......!!!
panta98:Don't
worry, she eats me, hook, sinker and bait!
juttaschmi:No
black panther left, Jürgen. Rather a black Strich in der Landschaft.
Iroll245:Das
wollt ich damit gesagt haben. Dammichaberauch
panta98:Juergen,
the "Black Panther" comments: "My father sometimes also has trouble to
think, especially when I am around!"
CarlzimC:Hi,
Frances
Iroll245:Hi
"klaane"
CarlzimC:Fran,
my wife, sends her regards to all
panta98:thank
you, nice regards back to her
Iroll245:en
retour, s'il vous plaite.
panta98:Carl,
why is the Arabian music especially emancipatory?
CarlzimC:Listen
to sound clips at www.aramusic.com
CarlzimC:I
think that Arabic music has emancipatory elements (stems from within the
human mind, connects with nature)
panta98:Carl,
I think that the music rather expresses the repression of the Arabian woman,
to function as an object of lust.
Iroll245:Ha!
sie lebt!!!
CarlzimC:Arabic
music expresses inner feelings and appreciation for nature
CarlzimC:Franz,
that's changing in new Arabic pop music
CarlzimC:Started
previously with Om Kulthum
panta98:It's
Frances, Carl. But, like father, like daughter!
panta98:Exactly
in pop music, they try to open towards the west, but the old tradition
they still keep in their heart feelings.
CarlzimC:OK,
Frances. Om Kulthum (Egyptian) was dark, but her voice was appreciated
by Mideasteners of all colors.
juttaschmi:Music
makes the world go round!
juttaschmi:I
like Dave Brubeck, Take Five!
CarlzimC:OK,
Frances. Un plaisir.
juttaschmi:No
racism, no ideology, just music.
Iroll245:If
we then concentrate on music - why not? -My topic!
panta98:If
Music is the Food of Thousand-And-One-Night, then, play on!!
CarlzimC:Today,
when an Arabic pop singer says "habibi (beloved)," he means it
juttaschmi:What
about synthetic music a la Ray Kurzweil? He is an inventor of intelligent
machines, including artificial music.
panta98:OK,
Jutta.
juttaschmi:I
remember Scott objecting against these music machines, and suggesting that
Kurzweil listen to a real birds' natural song!
panta98:Well,
it could be that electronic music would accompany the asexual love of the
Cyber Millennium!
Iroll245:Any
synth only interpretes natural sounds, immitates!
juttaschmi:I
have my canarios making lovely music everyday on the balcony.
CarlzimC:Theremin
created the synthesizer; it's technology wasalso used in KGB sureveillance
CarlzimC:Excellkent,
Jutta
CarlzimC:Excellent
juttaschmi:A
friend of Franz is an even better innovator, Jürgen. His name is Martin
Gürtner, and he exemplified chaos theory with sound!
panta98:Feelings
will disappear, even the few sado-masochistic emotions left today still.
Iroll245:Cool
- I would love to hear that! As I grew up wiith Kraftwerk and Tangerine
Dream.....
panta98:Miles
Davis expresses at best the agony of the wretched of this earth!
CarlzimC:Theremin
simulated chaos theory with his synthesizer
juttaschmi:Ähm,
I grew up with Nena and 99 Luftballons ...
panta98:Such
a shame, Jutta.
Iroll245:that
is fishing for compliments...:-)
panta98:Frances
grew up with Miriam Makeba!
juttaschmi:What
about "Hubert K"?!
Iroll245:Batabata!
CarlzimC:Cochrane-great
Jazz musician/composer
panta98:But
she loves The Carpenters, something went wrong with my education.
juttaschmi:Carl,
with what kind of music did you grow up?
Iroll245:When
she's back I'll introduce her to Ladysmith black Mombazo, Franz!
CarlzimC:All
kinds of music-pop, folk, classical-international
panta98:Juergen,
Pata-Pata. She's dancing it here, night and day!
juttaschmi:A
wide variety, Carl.
CarlzimC:Paul
Robeson, the Weavers, Woody Guthrie
panta98:Carl,
now at least, we are getting serious again!
juttaschmi:Udo
Lindenberg
juttaschmi:Leningrad
panta98:Guys,
back to our topic, please!!!!
juttaschmi:by
Billy Joel
Iroll245:Schade
eigentlich
Iroll245:OK
panta98:OK,
Carl. I give over to Franz. Next time, from Germany, I'll join the chat,
and we'll discuss more about this topic.
panta98:Here
is Franz again!
THE DRAMA CONTINUES
panta98:Guys,
reason has fled the scene!
panta98:How
about continuing here .... "Reason has to
have a certain "plus" vis a vis physical and intellectual labour. Otherwise
the "organisation" of economic exploitation, political oppression, social
discrimination and human alienation would not be effective."
juttaschmi:Okay,
we were discussing the "end times", Franz. The big Armageddon, the non-profit
scenario ...
juttaschmi:...
where all kind of labour imaginable would have been replaced by machines,
with Ray Kurzweil pulling the strings.
CarlzimC:Paul
Robeson played a "black Stalin" to liberate USA sharecroppers in a 1940's
movie, but later he said he didn't like that role.
juttaschmi:The
question is: Is "reason" materializable?!
panta98:How
come that Ratio dominates Intellectus and Sensatio? When it is all the
same thing?
Iroll245:because
it's more reasonable?
juttaschmi:Physical
and intellectual labour are materializable and have been materialized into
goods, commodities. Can likewise be done with reason?
juttaschmi:Materialized
intellect = the computer.
juttaschmi:Materialized
reason = ?
panta98:In
other words, as labour, how can rational labour dominate intellectual and
physical labour?
Iroll245:Does
it have to be done?
Iroll245:By
it's ideas, per se, it's speed - velocity.
juttaschmi:If
reason actually was materializable, Jürgen, it would fully fall into
the realm of labour, and would not have a plus vis a vis physical and intellectual
labour.
CarlzimC:Information
today is not secular- confined to experts and insiders
panta98:What
is really "intellectual labour"? Does it have anything to do with classical
intellectus?
panta98:With
feudal absolutist intellect?
CarlzimC:Intellectual
labor=alienation confined to non-secular cults
CarlzimC:Cults
of chemists, physicists, sociologists, etc.
juttaschmi:We
once defined intellect as "Denken über Handeln", Franz (thinking about
doing), in other words, directed towards the cosmic world.
panta98:Or,
by separating Church and State, did Reason also topple feudalist intellect,
and converted it into a goodie, into merchandise, into intellectual labour?
juttaschmi:Reason
is "Denken über Denken", (thinking about thought itself), in other
words, directed towards the ontic world.
Iroll245:No
Franz, don't think so. Nowadays more people have the chance to think about
doing. Classical baroque education is no longer needed. It can be the basis
but it's not a must.
panta98:I
suspect that current "intellectual labour" has nothing to do with thinking,
with the intellect anymore.
juttaschmi:Can
"thinking about thought itself" be converted into a commodity?
juttaschmi:Can
"thinking about thought itself" be substituted by a machine?
Iroll245:Information
is nearly "free". The intellectual labour you have to apply to it is to
filter it and focus it.
panta98:Only,
when we have identified current "intellect" in the intellectual labour
process, can we know whether thinking can be exploited, or even thinking
about thinking.
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Jurgen. However, few people know how to do that.
CarlzimC:In
the Mideast, intellectuals are isolated.
CarlzimC:No
influence on adversaries.
juttaschmi:Thinking,
per definitionem, is relating. Now, does intellectual labour relate? Whereto?
How?
panta98:To
materialize thinking and thought, to chipify it, is to factualize it, is
to destroy it.
juttaschmi:Relating
"begins" with contradiction.
panta98:Then,
thinking just becomes another level of concrete, concretized labour.
CarlzimC:The
expert cults practice mind control on TV.
juttaschmi:As
far as I know, they have not yet succeeded in creating a machine (computer)
based on anything else than the exclusive "either 0 or 1" so called binary
code.
Iroll245:This
is why I try to think off duty - free - as a "Selbstzweck", as a off-duty-thinking
guerilla.....:-)
panta98:To
computerize the intellect is to de-ontize it. To convert labourers into
intellectual computers is to annihilate them.
juttaschmi:Today's
guerillas first order weapon is exactly thinking, Jürgen.
Iroll245:
that
prevents you from sleeping.....
juttaschmi:You
bet!
Iroll245:
...
from "rest in peace".
panta98:It
is not all gold that glitters, it is not all intellect which "thinks".
juttaschmi:You
certainly have a point there, Franz.
Iroll245:
so
am I (not) :-)
panta98:In
any case, that what is being taught as "technology" or "informatics" has
very little to do with thought, theory, philosophy and "intellect".
panta98:With
"reason", not at all.
CarlzimC:What
is being taught is to turn humans into robots.
panta98:Democracy
has nothing to do with what ideology tells us; intellectual labour has
nothing to do with intellect anymore!
juttaschmi:Each
and everything that transcends the "binary system" (= formal logics) has
to do with thinking.
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Carl.
Iroll245:I
don't mean the techniques of the computer-age, Franz. I mean the sake of
it. It's -as Billyboy says - Information at your fingertips - it depends
on what you do with it.
juttaschmi:It
depends on what you THINK with it, Jürgen.
Iroll245:thank
you, Jutta. Have to train dialectics....
juttaschmi:You
are "saved", Jürgen - you simply cited Billyboy! ;-)
Iroll245:I'll
get refunded :-)
panta98:The
highly specialized, one-track-minded computer Brockhaus Zombies certainly
don't think anymore.
CarlzimC:Have
you seen any real debates on TV recently?
juttaschmi:Not
really, Carl. What is being debated recently on USA TV?
panta98:Thinking
and Thought concern Society; what do our technological, informatic erudite
scholars still know about Social Sciences; are they not fading into oblivion?
CarlzimC:They
are, Franz
juttaschmi:True,
Franz. The Fachidioten of today are trained to be such - specialists in
their fields, and nothing else.
Iroll245:Sorry
Franz - misunderstood - but I really tackle the borders of my language-skills...
CarlzimC:Isolated
and impotent.
panta98:They
are only socialites, celebrating Beverley Hills Social Parties!
CarlzimC:But
that will change.
panta98:Yes,
Carl?
juttaschmi:Gentlemen,
my stomach specializes on food and is calling for a major nutrition intake
....
CarlzimC:
Struggle vs. information cults.
CarlzimC:Same
here.
Iroll245:What
I meant is: If you dare you have the Alexandria-Library on the web. If
you dare, you can read it, if you dare, you can learn, if you dare, you
can use this "medium" to think......
panta98:Juergen,
to be specialized in one field, means to be atomized, means to cut relations,
means to stop thinking, which is nothing else than relating.
panta98:And,
if intellectual labourers are conditioned as such, then they don't think
anymore, hence they are no intellectual labourers, but simply, informatic
Zombies.
CarlzimC:Agreed,
Jurgen. We need to tell people where that information exists on the web
and its benefits
Iroll245:I
would love to have a late "last" supper too - but Heidi tells me day by
day. I'm too fat....
panta98: Item:
there is no such thing as an "intellectual labourer" today; intellect,
in Hegelian style, Reason has annihilated long ago already. We speak about
a ghost, about a Zombie. One more lie of the system!
Iroll245:
she's
right :-(
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Carl and Jürgen. But: Information presupposes a functioning brain.
How many functioning, that is, thinking brains are still out there?
Iroll245:
One,
say two, Carl!
CarlzimC:We
gotta find out
Iroll245:
just
kiddin'.
panta98:We
are being taken on a wild goose chase, on modern fox-hunting, intellectual
labour does not exist, it is mind-controlled newspeak that produces chips
and computers.
juttaschmi:Frances
says, the division of labour has put her on the side of the wretched of
the earth: she cooks, and others devour the fruit of her work!
juttaschmi:(others
= Franz and I)
Iroll245:
that's
what it's all about.....
panta98:No
imagination, no creativity, no artistry, no fire, nothing is left --- a
blank, computerized, data-based skull is left.
CarlzimC:
Agreed, Franz. Gotta have supper now. Enjoyed our chat. I'll send you what
I saved of the chat log.
SAYING GOOD-BYE
panta98:Me
too. Till next time, folks!
CarlzimC:Till
next time...
Iroll245:at
least for tonite, Franz your right!
panta98:I'll
send you all the original manuscript later.
juttaschmi:Okay,
Carl. We are on our way to the supper table, too!!!
CarlzimC:Wa
alaikum salaam.
panta98:Intellectual
Joy!
juttaschmi:It
was a pleasure, Carl and Jürgen and Franz.
juttaschmi:Good
night and bon appetit to all.
Iroll245:Enjoy
Fran's cooking Franz, Jutta and Carl too (la doublette de la nome)
panta98:Thanks
for coming, Juergen! You are always welcome!
panta98:Greetings
from frances!
juttaschmi:Buona
sera e molte grazie per tutti.
panta98:OK!
Bye!
Iroll245:Good
night everybody and hug her to death from me!
juttaschmi:You
bet!
juttaschmi:
;-)
CarlzimC:Oui,
Jurgen. Dankeschoen.
panta98:
8-)
CarlzimC:Bye.
juttaschmi:Au
revoir, messieurs.
panta98:Bye!
juttaschmi
has left the room.
CarlzimC has left the room.
Iroll245 has left the room.
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