Go to Guest Book No 6
Guest Book No 7
(mid 2004)
To read the comments in the order they appeared start at the bottom and work your way up. This is Geocities protocol.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : you comments section dos not provided nearly enought space for me to even touch on the areas you have misrepresented and misquoted
Comment (second 35 words) : from begining to end there are so many untruths...i can point out from ALL of the articles i have read through so far..they ALL contain some element of misrepresentation
Comment (third 35 words) : in the first article...about giving a patient anesthetic agents like pancuronium paitients DO NOT jerk or flail on the OR table, they can exibit spinal reflexes this can happen any time not just on the OR table As said though this is just 1 of the MANY mi
Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Okay, then let us get down to specifics of harvesting and transplanting. What precise technical arguments do you have against what is said on this site?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : WELL SAID...by the last post!!!
Comment (second 35 words) : i work in the industry, but when i have told you what REALLY happens...if it doesnt match with your idea of giving the whole donation pricipal a bad picture, you choose to disagree with me..when all i am doing is giving the truth of how it happens
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Thats funny, you want everyones name, yet when it serves your purposes you choose to use anonymous quotes.
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Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : No, it is not me. A number of medical experts will share their knowledge with me if they are not quoted.
Comment (second 35 words) : There are two strains of understanding: the first is what the public are told; the second is what the professionals know as the real truth.
Comment (third 35 words) : www.oocities.org/organdonate is for those who want an alternative understanding. The industry and government organ donation sites are for the general public.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, In your new quote, who is your source outside the UK? Are you using yourself as a source AGAIN?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : norm, why is it you only answer selective questions???? here are 2 clear questions that have been asked and you do not answer
Comment (second 35 words) : if you are busy ...thats 1 thing, but i doubt that is why as other questions when asked have a very quick response.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, Who in the transplant industry do you coorespond with? You stated that you have coorespondence throughout the world with people
Comment (second 35 words) : in the transplant community, WHO?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, please address, by how giving a name gives you the infomation you listed in the message a couple below
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Name (optional) : norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : So exactly what article did the New Scientist quote come from and from what issue?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : In case of confusion, the last comment was made to you Norm.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : You give your name, yet from reading the response mail on this site, it seems very few people respect YOUR opinion.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, Are you saying organ donors and recipients are not good honest people with proper intentions?
Comment (second 35 words) : Also what is your reponse to the fact that the quote from the New Scientist is completely misconstrued?
Comment (third 35 words) : You still answer only questions you want, and answer them poorly as well.Hmmm...
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : but norm, just by giving you a name all of the points you make below...you still cant verify, just by my name alone!!
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Name (optional) : norm barber
Address (optional) : adelaide
Email (optional) : gumflat88@hotmail.com
Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Well, most people respect an opinion more when the writer gives a name. You have a right to remain anonymous, but it lessens your credibility.
Comment (second 35 words) : My interest in knowing your name would be to see if you represent industry interests and are paid to promote the pro-transplant view.
Comment (third 35 words) : Or you might be someone who has profited by a transplant or donated your childs body for harvesting. And you might also be a sincere honest human with good intentions.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : what difference does it make if we identify ourselves, to the points we are making..??? our names do not make you believe us any more than if we remain nameless
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Hey Norm, How come you only answer questions or comments of your choice? Dont say it is a time issue, you are unemployed, plus
Comment (second 35 words) : your responses take about a minute to formulate.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Also, If you look up the article in New Scientist, and READ it, it is about calcineuron toxcicity, and how they have fould a new way of elongating the life of the
Comment (second 35 words) : transplanted organs by reducing dosage. I am certain the author of the article would not be impressed by your deliberate misquote.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Sorry, I said dollars, I meant pounds.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : You should also know that medicine has always tried to formulate mechanical organs, hence dialysis. You DID know that, didnt you? They have not been truly successful as of yet.
Comment (second 35 words) : Three million dollars is a small amount as compared to what has already been spent and what will continue to be spent.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : I am pro transplant. You could find my name in MANY pro transplant arenas. I dont give YOU my name because I see the way you twist words and quotes.
Comment (second 35 words) : Also I admit, I am a little afraid that you may be able to somehow contact me. I am certain that after reading this site there are others who would NOT
Comment (third 35 words) : welcome ANY contact with you. Back to YOUR quote, can you name the people in the industry that you are quoting in the first paragraph?
Name (optional) : norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : You might want to note where quotation marks appear in the Quote of the Week. Dr Evans quote was about the development of a mechanical heart.
Comment (second 35 words) : As for the increasing reluctance of relatives to assign their warm, heart-beating relatives for harvesting - that is based on my correspondence with those working in the industry from around the world.
Comment (third 35 words) : And who, like yourself, prefer to remain anonymous - which brings up another phenomena - why are pro-transplant people so reluctant to put their names to anything. I ask you this with respect.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Dr. Evans said the British Dept. of Health realizes they cant surmount inreasing reluctance of citizens to become Beating Heart Donors? What publication did
Comment (second 35 words) : he say this in? I would like to read the entire statement directly from the source. Perhaps he DID NOT say this. Who did then? Is it you Norm?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : transplanted kidneys survive less than ten years on average says David Concar in New Scientist Magazine, May, 2004
Comment (second 35 words) : Then another donor must be found or its back on dialysis
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Name (optional) : norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Dr David Wainwright Evans
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Who are you quoting in this latest quote of the week?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : in Australia. I have always assumed the care to be similar. So either you or Australian medical care is off a bit. I will have to assume its you.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : I accidently hit upon your site. Today is the 2nd anniversary of my kidney transplant. I have yet to have an opportunistic (or as you say AIDS like ) infection
Comment (second 35 words) : or a rejection episode. I am a nurse, I am married to a physician. We have done quite a bit of research, and your site needs more work. I suggest you do
Comment (third 35 words) : some more research. You say you wish to unveil the truth, please do so. I should also say I am living in the U.S.. I dont know the intricacies of transplant in
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : So norm old boy we might assume there are not stats to prove that life expectancy of someone receiving a donation kidney is better than someone who doesnt and stays on dialysis
Comment (second 35 words) : this is my reading. anyone got another conclusion
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Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : The difficulty in finding statistics to compare kidney transplant patient survival with those on dialysis is compounded by the latter containing terminal patients.
Comment (second 35 words) : For example, those chosen for a kidney transplant tend to be healthy so they can withstand the drugs and surgery. Those on dialysis include multiple organ-failure aged patients who are dying regardless.
Comment (third 35 words) : What we need is a comparison, like in Mario Dengs Heart Study, where kidney transplant patient survival can be compared to similarly healthy kidney failure patients who stayed on dialysis.
Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : x, youre slipping into that syndrome Daniel commented on - making claims then unable to substantiate them.
Comment (second 35 words) : As for RN NYC youre doing the badge, rank and serial number to Daniel. These above attitudes are similar to those of religious bureaucrats rather than medical science.
Comment (third 35 words) : Is it any wonder the industry needs to increasingly coerce donors. Lets get back to discussing the facts.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, the complications of dialysis information that I offered to you was in response to your misguided quote from MSN. Indeed survival rate for
Comment (second 35 words) : transplant patients is higher than that of dialysis pts. The statistics that you want are easy to find, if you look. I however dont feel obliged to spoonfeed
Comment (third 35 words) : it to you. If you really want this (it is your site after all) look it up.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, Saying dialysis is no picnic, is flippant and makes light of these patients difficulties. Would you say Chemo is no picnic?
Comment (second 35 words) : I would hope not. ESRD is a serious illness. Even with your views on organ transplant, which I will not even comment on, you should bear in mind that dialysis
Comment (third 35 words) : is more than simply no picnic.
Name (optional) : RN NYC
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Daniel, What part of the industry do you work in? What is your job title? Where do you work?
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Name (optional) : Daniel
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Your site is interesting. Im impressed by the quality of your references particularly because of the industrys reluctancy to share their knowledge.
Comment (second 35 words) : Im working in the industry myself and Im not not alone in being concerned about moral issues. Weve become inaccessible to critics by filtering facts as it suits us.
Comment (third 35 words) : It upsets me to see colleagues here criticising you for not using proper sources without mentioning anyone themselves. It is paternalistic and cowardly.
Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : That is a good response x. Dialysis is no picnic and the patient will have a shorter life than those using their own kidneys.
Comment (second 35 words) : This reduced, shorter life-span should be compared with the survival rates of kidney transplant recipients. Which is best and by how much?
Comment (third 35 words) : Do you know which is highest? The answer might help to clarify how helpful a kidney transplant is ... and determine how accurate organ donor promotional campaigns are.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : so there is no confusion this book is a widely used MEDICAL publication edited by nephrologists, and is a guide for medical professionals involved
Comment (second 35 words) : in the care of dialysis patients.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Left Ventricular Hypertrophy is a strong risk factor for cardiovascular mortality. Hypertention, occuring in 80% of pts with ESRD,is a prime contributor to atherosclerosis
Comment (second 35 words) : and heart failure. There are many other causes of shortened life span in ESRD, however dialysis registries in North America and Europe report cardiovascular
Comment (third 35 words) : events as the prime cause of death in dialysis patients. This info is from Handbook of Dialysis (Lippincott, Williams &Wilkins is the publisher.)
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, I hope you dont get all medical info from MSN. The quote regarding being on dialysis for the rest of ones life does not imply that life expectancy is
Comment (second 35 words) : normal. It simply states that one can remain on dialysis until death. I would suggest that you do your searches on MEDICAL websites. These are somewhat
Comment (third 35 words) : more helpful. Complications that cause reduced life span include cardiovascular disease, especially left ventricular hypertrophy, endemic in esrd pts.
Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : How long can you be on dialysis? A patient with end-stage renal failure can be on dialysis for as long as it takes to get a kidney transplant or for the rest of his or her life.
Comment (second 35 words) : so says http://xtramsn.co.nz/health/0,,8065-1669936,00.html The site also lists the negative aspects of kidney dialysis.
Comment (third 35 words) : People can live virtually indefinitely on dialysis though there are complications. A kidney transplant is not a life-saving procedure as claimed or implied by others.
Name (optional) : Norm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Thanks, David, Ill follow it up.
Comment (second 35 words) : As to the anonymous correspondent I have lost track of what questions you were asking. Also, where on the UNOS web site does it confirm the viewpoint you are putting forward?
Comment (third 35 words) : It really confuses things not using a name, even a fake name would create some consistency.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Still awaiting your answers to the last few archived questions, as well as the question on what else you have written.
Comment (second 35 words) : Have you confirmed the fact that organ recipients cannot donate their organs yet????? It seems according to UNOS they can. Hmmm.
Comment (third 35 words) : When I have a chance I will get back to you regarding survival rates of ESRD patients on dialysis and after transplant. You seem to be unable to find it.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : David, What does an article on companies stealing bodies from funeral homes have to do with discouraging organ donation?
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Name (optional) : david brockschmidt
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : the body snatchers by Annie Cheney in the weekend financial review April 23-26 2004 www.afr.com hi norm if you dont know where you are going you cant take a wrong turn
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Name (optional) : Dan
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Email (optional) : ktransplant@hotmail.com
Comment (holds up to 35 words) : I am a medical student and have created a web page about kidney transplantation. I’m hoping that this would be of interest to patients: http://www.portfolio.mvm.ed.ac.uk/studentwebs/session5/37/Index3.htm
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, What do you do for a living? Have you ever written anything other this book?
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm i am the person to whom you are referencing to i am not unwilling to share info but am restricted by laws confidentialilty, so will not put my job at risk answer your questions
Comment (second 35 words) : the closest i can say is i am on the west coast of the USA, but suggest to confirm organs can be recovered from recpient suggest you look at UNOS as they will support
Comment (third 35 words) : My opo is by no means the only one recovering organs from recipients..it is not new....you obviously didnt do your full reasearch!!!! like you say you do
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, You answer questions that you want to and ignore questions that you have no answer to. This is a running theme on your site.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : The arguments have become circular and no dialogue has been created. It is a familiar situation in the transplant industry where workers are unwilling to share their knowledge.
Comment (second 35 words) : I refer particularly to the posting where the person claims organ recipients at his or her OPO can become donors themselves yet wont name that OPO - claiming patient privacy.
Comment (third 35 words) : Such an argument insults any attempt at dialogue. To create a dialogue both parties must be willing to share info and build upon each others viewpoints - even from a critical position.
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Comment (holds up to 35 words) : Norm, Please respond to last few postings, they are now archived.