El 6-8-97 apareció Víctor, un antitoreísta DE VÍCTOR La polémica respecto a la fiesta nacional es bien conocida pero, a mi entender, los argumentos de unos y otros muy a menudo, no son muy convincentes. Iré desenmascarando cada una de los argumentos a favor para finalmente demostrar por qué no estoy a favor del toreo: ---- Es un arte ---- Habría que ver qué es arte. Es bastante difícil dar una definición única de a lo que se le llama arte. En algunos casos es entendido como el dominio de unas técnicas, reglas o normas usadas con creatividad para obtener un resultado estético. Por ejemplo, si Velázquez no hubiera tenido un dominio excelente de una técnica, no hubiera ido muy lejos. Antiguamente, esa definición hubiera sido suficiente, se resaltaba la "belleza" primordialmente. Ahora el producto no tiene que ser tanto estético como comunicativo. Se dice que "tiene que decir algo". Efectivamente, los toros son arte si así lo vemos. Pero situándonos en ese concepto de arte taurino, podemos poner el ejemplo de que se puede pintar un cuadro al oleo, o con sangre. La creación de nuevas torturas en la edad media se puede considerar también un arte. La réplica que se hace a los "toros" es que no es un arte. Aceptemos por un momento que es un arte. ¿Y qué? ¿Eso justifica la "fiesta"? Menuda chorrada. Como si el arte fuera un valor por encima de lo ético. Aquello de que "tiene que decir algo" , según entiendo yo, "tiene que elevar el espíritu". Es como la educación, diferente del concepto de la enseñanza. Se puede enseñar a robar y no se está educando. ---- Mucha gente vive de ello---- Esta es la mayor tontería que me han dicho. Normalmente te lo dicen como último argumento cuando no tienen por donde salir. (Y que conste que no establezco confrontaciones agresivas, simplemente busco el razonamiento y la libre expresión). La respuesta es de perogrullo: "También mucha gente vive de la droga". Por cierto, los tres grandes negocios del mundo son drogas, armamento y petróleo. (No sé en qué orden, el profe de sociología no se acordaba). ---- Sin el toreo desaparecerían los toros como raza---- Aquí mucho se quedan "pillados" pero no es para tanto. Desaparecen cientos de especies al día. ¿Por qué no decir nada de esas? Yo prefiero que desaparezca una raza animal antes que lo que se hace con ella. ¿Acaso es tan importante el mantener una raza? Ya sé que no es una opinión muy "verde" pero si la utilidad no es correcta se debe suprimir a pesar de las consecuencias. Por supuesto, defiendo la supresión de la tauromaquia intentando conservar los toros. ---- "Tú es que no puedes saber lo que se siente"---- El último intento del aficionado: la irracionalidad. Se da la coincidencia de que a mí me han encantado los toros y he sido un gran aficionado. Cuando empecé el "cambio" por razones éticas, seguían gustando pero me sobreponía. Ahora no puedo verlo porque me aborda un sentimiento de tristeza. -------. Ahora iré con lo que me hace estar en contra: Que el animal sufra de esa forma, es para muchos suficiente. Me parece un argumento flojillo. Te pueden decir que también existe la caza, que se matan muchos animales para comer, etc. El quid no está en el animal sufriendo sino en la gente disfrutando de ello. ¿Hay algo más contrario a la compasión y a la piedad que contemplar y regocijarse en cómo se tortura a un animal? Un diferencia de grado es un matadero (aunque tampoco compasivo, pero de menos grado) donde se matan animales para su consumo y no se crea un "circo romano" alrededor, lleno de gente que contempla y asume como la crueldad está, no sólo justificada, sino alabada y elevada al rango de arte. ¿Qué sentimientos puede crear en los niños a los que habría que enseñarles, por contra, el buen trato y cuidado de los animales? ¿Cuidar animales, para qué? ¿Para engordarlos? No lo creo. Más bien, para aprender lo que es la piedad y la compasión HUMANAS, al igual que otras cualidades HUMANAS. Me parece que estos argumentos son más que suficientes. Al menos para mí, lo son. Víctor de Punto Lo notable es la conversiíon de un toreísta. Eso demuestra que mi labor misionera no es inútil. Algunos toreístas son recuperables, regenerables.	NATIVE ENGLISH VOLUNTEER WANTED FOR TRANSLATING INTO ENGLISH AND/OR CORRECTING "MY" ENGLISH
El 10-8-97 apareció Patrice. A continuación su mensaje y mi contestación: DE Y A PATRICE
	It seems that this argument could apply to fishing with the exception that the people ratio of actors to spectators is reversed. Fewer people watch line fishing, but many practice it. I would also ague that there is much more cruelty in fishing that in bullfight. My argument for this is two fold: - First the bull likes to fight,
¡Cómo se ve que no has visto el vídeo "Proceso a los Españoles. Sesión I. El Toreo (I)"!. Si lo hubiese visto sabrías que el toro, en el toreo, no lucha, sino que "huye hacia adelante" porque está asustado.
	if the bulls refused to fight, there would be no corrida;
Quieres decir: "Si el toro no se asustase, no habría corrida.".
	the fish on the other hand is just trying to feed itself and escape from being caught.
Si el pescador pesca porque también necesita comer, su acción es lícita. Pero el hombre no necesita torear. Si tiene que matar al toro para comer, puede y debe matarlo causándole el menor sufrimiento posible.
	- Second, the bull problably does not suffer as much as people _think_ it suffers;
La clave está en la palabra "probably"; tú no estás segura.
	many people, including me, have experienced that an open wound starts hurting long (30mn to hours) after it has been inflicted, by that time the bull is dead.
Lo normal es que cuando alguien es herido se queje inmediatamente. No nos tenemos que guiar por casos raros como el tuyo o el de esa hipotética "many people". Además, eso dependerá de la gravedad de la herida: Si tú recibiese en el cuello o entre los hombros el equivalente de un puyazo de 30 centímetros o más de hondo, ya verías como sí te dolería.
	The fish on the other hand is, most of the time, let to suffocate and die, sometimes for hours.
Eso es debido a que los pescadores que no rematan el pez en cuanto lo sacan del agua son crueles: podrían ser toreros o aficionados. Me refiero a los pescadores justificados, a sea a los que pescan por necesidad. Los que pescan sin necesidad son crueles aunque rematen el pez.
	Is fishing inhuman?
Contestado en la contestación inmediatamente anterior.
Saludos Salvador Raich
El 9-8-97 Lyn Sherwood, extorero, contestó a alguien. DE LYN SHERWOOD
	I agree with most of the points that you make. However, we aficionados have to agree that, on purely moral grounds, bullfighting is indefensible. To take the lives of magnificent animals, purely to entertain paying crowds, cannot be justified. Or, as Matador John Fulton put it, "an aficionado is somebody who knows all about bullfighting, but likes it, anyway". Furthermore, the only element of La Fiesta that provides any degree of justification is the pursuit of art. Not necessarily the accomplishment, for all canvases are not masterpieces. Those toreros who specialize in conning the unsophisticated crowds are whores, and those who support their tremendistic actions aren't aficionados, but voyeurs, applauding the rape of taurine artistry. Remember, tauromaquia is not a sport, but a performing art. Without the pursuit of artistic expression as its driving force, La Fiesta is nothing more than a bloody rodeo and should be immediately outlawed. Lyn Sherwood
El 11-8-97 le contesté: A LYN SHERWOOD Por fin se hizo la luz, y donde menos lo esperaba yo. En efecto: Moralmente, el toreo es indefendible. La justificación que Vd. le busca, la consecución del arte, aunque fuese cierta sería insuficiente. Una vez más "Nulle esthetica sine ethica". Si algo no es ético, NO PUEDE ser estético, no puede ser arte. Ese "algo" no puede ser justificado por un concepto incompatible con dicho "algo". El toreo, inmoral, no puede ser justificado por la búsqueda de la belleza, porque "belleza" e "inmoralidad" son conceptos antitéticos. Lo felicito por haber reconocido finalmente la parte más dolorosa -para Vd.- de la verdad. Lamento que haya Vd. dedicado su vida a una actividad que, al fin, reconoce Vd. que es inmoral, y que terminará Vd. por admitir que no tiene justificación. Pero ya sabe Vd. que "más vale 'tarde' que 'nunca'". Saludos Salvador Raich	NATIVE ENGLISH VOLUNTEER WANTED FOR TRANSLATING INTO ENGLISH AND/OR CORRECTING "MY" ENGLISH
El 10-8-97 Juan Valera escribió, creyendo haber encontrado la piedra filosofal:: DE JUAN VALERA
	The following posting and the eloquent reply appeared in a different newsgroup but I think it has some relevance to our own newsgroup. Enjoy it. Juan "ABS wrote: "To Westerners, cock fighting is a form of animal abuse. Please do not promote animal abuse on Internet. While it is acceptable in Asia and Latin America, it is not in Western society. It will take Asians many more years to accept civilized views such as environment protection, human rights, recycling, endangered animal protection, etc. "Cockfighting and dog eating reduce the respect from foreigners toward Asians. Sef-respect Asians must avoid doing things that degrade his/her own people and country. Dean replied: *This is one of the most preposterously "PC" postings I've ever seen. *First, since when is Latin America not "Western?" Second, you insult Asians, (and I assume you are Asian) by saying that it will take Asians "many more years to accept civilized views." Isn't "civilization" an extremely subjective term? I dare you to call any country that accepts cock or bull fighting uncivilized. You'd be flamed out of existance, and rightly so. Are the United States a paragon of civilization? My own experience growing up there tells me that my home country has a lot of growing up to do. *The person who posted the URL of the "Cockfighting Homepages" did so appropriately, even if you are offended. You might have tried a more eloquent rebuttal, but instead seem to call for apologist self-censorship. I personally find this much more offensive. *It's foolish for you, even with the best intentions, to say something like "Please do not promote animal abuse on [the] Internet." People are free to express what they want on the Usenet. Besides, cock- and bullfighting ARE part of many Latin American cultures, and I see that you've posted exclusively to Latin American and Asian "culture" newsgroups. *What you seem to be saying is "Please censor yourself as regards your embarassing leftover cultural barbarisms so as not to offend enlightened North American and European sensibilities. We uncivilized folks have a long way to go before we catch up with them." *As a citizen of the United States who grew up in a climate of fascistic Political Correctness (San Francisco Bay Area,) the last thing in the world I want to see is my country's style of "our-culture-is-more-evolved-than-yours" rhetoric forced upon internet forums that celebrate the individuality and diversity of cultural traditions. *The Internet is not owned by "Western society," whatever the hell that's supposed to be these days. *Long live human cultural diversity! -Dean
El 11-8-97 le contesté: A JUAN VALERA Nietecito descarriado y, además, descastado: ABS tiene razón: "Cockfighting and dog eating reduce the respect from foreigners towards Asians.". Es verdad; no seamos hipócritas. ABS es benevolente y considerado: "While (animal abuse) is acceptable in Asia and Latin America, it is not in Western society." ¡Qué tiene que ser aceptable, en Asia o donde sea!. La respuesta de Dean supongo que indignará a Jesús Ramírez. Además, en su afán de criticar a ABS, viene a justificar las peleas de gallos y el toreo. Espero que alguna alma caritativa lleve a Dean a Argelia, donde los del GIS lo degollarán por ser "infiel", como les manda su "cultura", y que Dean, fiel hasta el fin, gritará antes de recibir el último tajo "Long life human culture diversity!". A ver si te despabilas, nietecito. A pesar de todo, y ya que tengo la desgracia de tenerte en la familia, cordiales saludos. Salvador Raich	NATIVE ENGLISH VOLUNTEER WANTED FOR TRANSLATING INTO ENGLISH AND/OR CORRECTING "MY" ENGLISH
El 12-8-97 vino un ingles atípico: DE SIMON REGAN
	Pamplona: A Desperate Scallywag Appeal to all American Universities By Simon Regan, editor of Scallywag Magazine http://www.scallywag.org/ Scallywag appeals to all US universities to officially place the Fiesta of San Fermin in Pamplona, northern Spain out of bounds to all their students on the grounds that they are seriously destroying probably the world's greatest fiesta. I have recently returned from Pamplona where I enjoyed my fortieth anniversary of San Fermin but I shall not go again purely on the grounds that your students have ruined the Pamplona that I knew so well. Many people go to Pamplona for myriad reasons. Some go to run with the bulls, which is a most serious business. Others go for the bullfights there. Pamplona is a rich town that can afford the greatest fighters of the day, and the very best bulls. Some people go exclusively to drink and it is indeed a drinker's paradise. Very few people who take Pamplona seriously go to pay homage to Hemingway who they consider was the first American to abuse the town. He went in the twenties with a small party of five or six, and was obnoxious to almost everyone. Now the Americans, nearly all whippersnappers just out of their nappies, number fifty or sixty thousand, and they are just as obnoxious, although to be more obnoxious than Hemingway is very difficult. Although Death in the Afternoon is a good starting point for any budding aficionado it is by no means definitive on the subject, and much of it was shamefully cribbed from others. 'Fiesta' aka 'The Sun Also Rises' is certainly a brilliant novel and worthy of being on the curriculum in American universities. But it has led to tens of thousands of your youngsters coming to the fiesta and, presumably trying to emulate Ernesto, behaving in a disgraceful fashion. For a start most of them think they are in Mexico and the Basques are as different to Mexicans as an Eskimo is to a Turk. They do not understand the local politics that are at best always volatile, and this year, following the brutal assassination of Angel Blanco by the ETA, a lot more so. Secondly, most of them are too young to drink in the States and after finding the cheap tinto they become incapably drunk. In Pamplona I admit it is not a sin to be incapably drunk, but being incapable without being obnoxious takes some experience of which your students have not an ounce. The crucial survival code for Pamplona is pacing yourself and not letting the madness take you over completely at the start. Day three is the testing point. By then the men are separated from the boys. By day three you can bet that the station at Pamplona is overloaded with kids trying to redeem their packs so they can get the hell out of town. But day three is also when the fiesta really starts. It has found its own pace and settled into its own rhythm. After its first great gasp, it gets a second breath. Any veteran will still be fresh and ready to enjoy the essence of San Fermin. By then all the musicians will be playing out of tune which actually adds to the charm. The drinking becomes rather more moderate. The siestas, which your students steadfastly ignore, become sacred. You can walk down to the river and find a spot to snooze without fornicating students under every tree. The ticket touts pack up and leave town. The engineers repair the toilets. This is probably the most important aspect of day three. Thirdly, those students who try running with the bulls for the first time are becoming a menace. They very rarely run twice. Less than 1,000 runners are allowed in the streets at 8 a.m. Most of these are serious and experienced runners to whom the run is venerated. But up to half the runners these days tend to be inexperienced young drunks from places like Akron, Ohio, who merely clog up the street and deny the more serious runners a chance to compete. None of them will ever be like Matt Carney, a veteran New Yorker, who perfected the run into an art form and got to know the inside of the infirmary almost as well as he knew his favourite bars. When he died about ten years ago he left $2,000 in his will for a wake in Pamplona, which was held at the Club Taurino. There were many old and grizzled Basques there who had run with him for donkey's years and who came to pay tribute. The municipal band - numbering about 200 musicians - were laid on by the town council at vast cost and the wake eventually lasted for forty eight hours. Carney would be a very sad man if he could come back from the dead and see what his fellow countrymen have turned San Fermin into. By the way, Matt gained huge credit with the locals in the fifties when he said to Hemingway at Marcelliano's (featured prominently in Fiesta), "Hemingway, you may be able to write a bit, but at San Fermin you're just another little shit". I ran for the first 21 years of my visits, at least three or four times during the seven days of the fiesta. I was never in Carney's class, but I had my day. To run properly it is imperative to know the street intimately and to fully understand the five places at which you are most vulnerable. You should learn how to run fast while looking over your shoulder, yet also be aware of the possible pitfalls ahead. The run is not just a schoolboy exercise in macho. It is imperative to be slightly tipsy, but never drunk. It is vital to respect the very stones of Estafeta - the main route. But to respect the bulls even more. It is also very wise to know when and how to get out. On the year I became a coward and gave up the encerrio, a bull called Matido got separated from the pack and began running the other way. After he had killed two and seriously gored 37 others, I broke through the door of a house in Estefeta to get out. Matido followed me in and right up to the first floor, where the stairway collapsed. Had I have had as much guts and experience as Matt Carney, I would never have found myself in that situation. This year a youth died because the drainpipe he climbed to escape a rampaging bull collapsed. The first thing you do in Estefeta is study the drainpipes. You will never outrun the bulls. But with speed, skill, timing and carefully choosing your starting point, you can get to the plaza de toros before them on a good day, and that is the point of the exercise. I have nothing but the utmost disrespect for youths who merely stumble around half drunk getting in the way of those who understand the run. They cause more deaths through ignorance, mainly because of human pile-ups, than the bulls themselves. Get out of my street, Buddy, we don't need you! It is a great blessing that your compatriots do not seem to have discovered Calle St Nicholas, also known as the Street of a Thousand Bars which remains the "old" Pamplona. I was able this year to drink my way down one side and up the other - rather a feat - without meeting a single American student. Instead, your students remain steadfastly in the main square, the Plaza Castillo, which in my younger day was the picture of tranquillity even in the most raucous of fiestas. Here is the Cafe Iruna which was featured in the film of Fiesta and in those days had large wicker tables and chairs where you could sit and enjoy an absinthe and watch the Basque dancing to the pipes and drums. It also had one of the only toilets in Pamplona which was kept working throughout the fiesta. In the morning you could have chocolate and churros for breakfast in the height of civility. The square was always a rip-off, but you paid for the peace. Now, after the fast- growing American invasion, the whole square, including the sacred Cafe Iruna, has been turned into a vast 24-hour disco with music that can seriously damage your health. There is simply not a single Pamplonese who will be found there. All that you will find is about five thousand young and very drunk Americans who actually believe that San Fermin is a glorified disco dance. The rip-off has now become ludicrous. They are just robbing your people blind. Oh, and the toilets in the Iruna this year didn't work from day one. Another thing is the bullfights. It is the very worst kind of agony to pay a high price for a good seat and find yourself surrounded by a bunch of kids from Illinois who have been ripped off by the touts and who don't have the foggiest idea of what is going on. Watching a first class bullfight is another serious matter in which you have to scrutinise detail while keeping a full eye on the spectacle as a whole. Every single facet of the fight is a matter of deep concentration. You can, of course, make comments during a fight. Especially derisory. But I have found that if I do so while surrounded by your students they rudely expect me to give them an exclusive running commentary and, when, for example, I am trying to decide whether the picador is trying to ruin the bull or is honourably merely punishing him to prepare him for the next stage, some arsehole will turn to me and say: "Does that hurt the horse?" and you are expected to give a lecture on the finer points of picking. Also, whenever the fiesta got on one nerves, a few years ago, one could wander in the cool of the evening to the extensive park which forms the citadel. Here there are antelope, the coolness of trees, and a couple of outdoor restaurants. In the evening it was always lovely to forsake the madness in town and go and eat the huge selection of tapas and drink a couple of cold beers. This year, the park was literally covered - almost every available blade of grass - with the prostrate bodies of American youths trying to sleep off vast quantities of booze. Either that, or fornicating. Or drinking further. They have turned my park into the Bowery and I won't forgive them for it. This American invasion is a fairly new phenomenon. It has been building up gradually over the years as word of mouth went around the campuses. But now it is a serious menace. It is a virtual take-over and take-overs by foreigners of another culture are always undesirable. The British in the Costa del Sol are an example. So are the Germans in the Costa Blanca. Now your lot has kidnapped my Fiesta. I implore you to either put Pamplona off-limits, or to create a new course on how to behave there, and how to properly appreciate it. Hemingway is the very worst example to follow for the young who are experiencing Spain, and especially Pamplona, for the first time. -- Simon Regan - mailto:sr@fidalgo.net Scallywag http://www.scallywag.org/ 48 Stanhope Street, London, NW1 3EX
Es alucinante ver cómo, tras cuarenta años de ir a Pamplona por San Fermín, no se había enterado de nada, ni sobre el encierro y ni siquiera sobre la ciudad y su gente. Escribí el artículo "La Verdad sobre Pamplona y San Fermín", que se puede leer en Varios, y le contesté: A SIMON REGAN Mr. Regan: Ya que ha estado Vd. yendo a Pamplona por S. Fermín durante 40 años, podría yo suponer que entenderá Vd. al menos un poquito el español. Pero visto que llama "vascos" a los navarros, me temo que en esos 40 años no se haya Vd. enterado de nada. Espero que alguna persona altruista le traduzca este mensaje y el artículo que luego diré. Acerca de los navarros, le informo de que solo un pequeño porcentaje de ellos se consideran vascos. La gran mayoría se niegan a ser considerados como vascos, y se oponen rotundamente a formar parte de Euzkadi. Acerca de los encierros de S. Fermín, si quiere enterarse de lo que son puede leer mi artículo "La Verdad sobre Pamplona y S. Fermín" que envío a los newsgroups alt.inculture.bullfight y soc.culture.spain. Saludos Salvador Raich	NATIVE ENGLISH VOLUNTEER WANTED FOR TRANSLATING INTO ENGLISH AND/OR CORRECTING "MY" ENGLISH