Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997
From: Olga Danilova (olgad@sci.kun.nl
in the comments to "The Celts" I've met a mention of Tir-na n'Og, the Land of Youth. It is interesting that in Roger Zelazny (sorry for possible mispellings in the name, I have his books on Russian only!) "Chronicles of Amber" I've met Tir-na Nog't, the ghost "twin city" of Amber which appears in the night sky above Amber in moon light. I know that Zelazny sometimes appeal to Arthurian legends (which originated from Celtic ones). Does anybody know any explanations of WHY Zelazny use this name? WHAT is Tir-na n'Og in Celtic legends?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997
From: david.smith@utoronto.ca
Tir na n' Óg, literally "the land of youth" or "the land of young people" was one of the mythical Celtic "other worlds", usually identified as an island in the ocean west of Europe. (Avalon, of the Arthurian legends, was another such island.) According to the legend that I heard, there was an Irish adventurer named Oisín who travelled to Tir na n'Óg, where time passes quite differently than in the "real" world, so people stay eternally youthful. When he returned to Ireland, what seemed to him only a few weeks later, 300 years had actually gone by. St. Patrick had come and brought Christianity to Ireland, so Oisín knew that as soon as he touched the shore, the power of Tir na n'Óg would diminish and he would die. He met St. Patrick, still on his horse, and St. Patrick tried to convert him to Christianity. Upon hearing that all his heroic counterparts from the Ireland that he knew would be in Hell because they were Pagans, Oisín decided that he would rather join them than go to the Christians' heaven, so he dismounted from his horse and died as soon as he stepped on the ground.
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997
From: Tim Haynes (tshaynes@picard.math.uwaterloo.ca
"Tir-na n'Og", as you put it (more commonly Tir Nan Og, or Tir Na n'Og) is indeed the Country of the Young (the Land of Youth, alternatively). Some mythologies equate it to Faerie, although the ruling classes of those respective worlds are different (Aurberon and Titania for Faerie, Lleu Llaw Gyffes (or Lugh, the Ildinach) for Tir Nan n'Og -- actually, the oldest legends have Danu as the eldest god of Tir Nan n'Og, which is supported by some of the legends of Lugh).
Tir Nan n'Og is the homeland of the Tuatha De Danann. It's sort of like the "heaven" of Celtic mythology -- everybody is beautiful, nobody ages, boundless food, etc... etc... Except that the mode of access was quite different from the "die and go to heaven" idea we think of in the Western world. There is a very rich set of characters that have to do with Tir Na n'Og, which include all the Tuatha (some neat characters there, like the Morrigan and the Dagda) and also includes some of the Fionna (Fionn mac Cumhall and his Fighting Men from Celtic mythology. These bunch were mortal, unlike the Tuatha) like Oisin and Nuada of the Silver Arm. To get to Tir Na n'Og, you needed one of the Tuatha to take you there, as happened to Fionn and Oisin. Great stuff, Celtic mythology. :) For contemporary stories involving Tir Na N'Og, Lugh, and the Tuatha De Danann, I recommend reading Tom Deitz's "David Sullivan" series -- very cool.
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997
From: bigted (bigted@dircon.co.uk
WHAT is Tir-na n'Og in Celtic legends?
Tir Nan Og, or Tir Na N-og (pron. teer na nogue), meaning the Land of the Young. This, which lay west across the sea, was one of the lands into which the Tuatha de Danaan (1) retreated when they had been conquered by the Milesians (2). They had other habitations, under the sidh, the green mounds or tumuli of prehistoric Ireland, or the Land under the Waves, Tirfo Thuinn, but Tir Nan Og was the earthly paradise where time, like time in fairyland, was no longer reckoned by mortal measures, a land of beauty, where the grass was always green and fruit and flowers could be picked together, where feasting, music, love, hunting and joyous fighting went on all day and death made no entry, for if in the fights men were wounded and killed one day they came to life again none the worse the next. Occasionally mortal men were invited to Tir Nan Og, as Ossian (3) was, and if they wanted to revisit earth they were put under a geis. (4) When this was violated the weight of their mortal years came upon them and they were unable to return. In Wales a comparable story is that of King Herla.
(1) Once Gods of Ireland, later ousted to become the faery people.
(2) The invading horde that displaced the Tuatha De Danaan.
(3) The son of Finn MacCool, a great Irish chieftain.
(4) Mysterious prohibition magically laid upon a person, and once laid was
irremovable.
From "A Dictionary of Fairies" Katherine Briggs, Penguin 1976 ISBN 0 14 00.4753 0
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997
From: Jim Waters (jwaters@az.com)
For the benefit of those who don't have the liner notes to The Celts: (Oisin is the third part of the "Triad".)
Oisin which means "little fawn", left his home to journey to Tir na n Og, the Land of Youth, with Niamh Cinn Oir, "Niamh of the Head of Gold". Timelessness - he stayed 300 years, though never aged. On his return to Ireland he found his contemporaries long dead, and Ireland now had St. Patrick and Christianity. Putting his foot upon the earth, he lost Tir na n Og, and so aged and died.
For further reading I now offer this from the liner notes of Enya's sister Máire's self-titled album:
(This is after the lyrics to the song "Land of Youth (Tír na nÓg)")
(One version of a story from Irish folklore about Oisin, a son of the mythical warrior Finn MacCumhail. The beautiful Niamh appears and offers Oisin eternal youth and love. He is lured by her to the Land of Youth (Tír na nÓg). What seems like a short time later Oisin yearns to visit his family and companions in Ireland. "But three hundred years have passed since you left," Niamh tells him. "I will give you a white steed to carry you safely to Ireland. But if you leave the horse and your foot touches the ground you will never return to me." Travelling through his old land, Oisin comes across a man building a stone wall. He stoops to help him but, losing his footing on the horse, falls to the ground and is instantly transformed into a wisend three hundred-year-old.)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997
From: Peter Pehrson (pehrson@krull.dk)
There is a movie basing its story on this... "Into the West":
Ireland / UK 1992 Color (Technicolor)
8.3/10 (50 votes)
Produced by: Film Four International / Majestic Films International / Miramax Films
Certification: Sweden:11 / USA:PG
Language: English
Genre/keyword: Adventure / horses / ireland
Runtime: USA:97
Sound Mix: Dolby SR
Directed by Mike Newell
Primary Cast in credits order:
Gabriel Byrne - Papa Reilly
Ellen Barkin - Kathleen
Ciaran Fitzgerald - Ossie
Ruaidhri Conroy - Tito
David Kelly (I) - Grandfather
Johnny Murphy - Tracker
It's quite good... check it out
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997
From: SEAN RHEA (srhea@mail.state.tn.us)
Roger Zelazny, much like Tolkien, occasionally borrows from mythology. The name Tir-na-nog'th was, indeed, taken from Tir-na-nog, the Celtic "Land of Youth". In Celtic legend, if one sets foot upon the shores of Tir-na-nog they never age and time passes swiftly. However if one steps foot off the shores of Tir-na-nog, time catches up with them all at once...often spelling a rather gruesome death. Tir-na-nog has been related to the Arthurian Avalon (another name that appears in Zelazny's Amber) and is the dwelling place of the old Celtic gods.
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997
From: Jean Debord (JDebord@compuserve.com)
I suppose that all of you are familiar with the legend of Eithne. However, here is another legend that I have found in a site related to Irish culture:
http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/~bj333/HomePage.home.html
EITHNE
The daughter of a King of Leinster. She was, as the custom, put into the care of foster-parents. It is recorded that those fosterers 'fed her with the flesh of children in order to make her the sooner ripe for matrimonial embraces'. This is an unusual reversal of 'normal' worldwide practices of ritual cannibalism. Generally this is used to slow down the ageing process, or to add strength. World folklore abounds with tales of elderly women draining the blood of virgins to drink in an effort to maintain youth. (Many of these elderly women are 'Countesses', living in castles. Usually in Romania!) The modern cosmetic industry keeps up this tradition; human placenta material is used in various cosmetic concoctions. Archaeological evidence in Ireland appears to confirm that, whatever about feeding on 'the flesh of children', the ancients were in the habit of splitting open bones to get at the marrow. Whether the bones were of slain enemies, or of admired deceased leaders, we cannot be sure. Certainly the practice was widespread in the ancient world, notably in ancient Egypt, where marrow was sucked out of bones for purposes mysterious.
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 1997
From: Iocentre (hounslow@iocentre.ins.co.uk)
I thought that you all may be interested in this quote fron Frank Delaney's book " The Celts" where the author is discussing the regard that ancient celts held for nature and in particular of trees. I thought it ties in quite well with TMOT.
"Gods belonged to trees; accross the years and the celtic lands, the tree attracted cults of worship and the tribal tree stood on the most sacred site, where the tribal leader was innaugerated. The ash, Yew and particularly the oak frequently appear in poems ...Sometimes the tree represented a rallying point for the tribe to be attacked, therefore, and cut down by a marauding tribe-the capture so to speak of the enemy standard. Elsewhere it appears as a garlanded signpost: at the mouth of a cave which marked the entrance to the Otherworld stood a tree laden with silver flowers, and in whose branches birds sang sweetly and forever."
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997
From: Jason Leaphart (zipflint@teleplex.net)
Sorry for the lack of Enya content, but I've got a question for you folks who are in the know on Celtic mythology: Is there one myth that could be called a "creation story" in Celtic mythology? I'm studying early British literature, and right now I'm focusing on Celtic mythology, and I've just started really, but I have yet to run across a story of this type. Thanks for any help you could provide, and apologies again for the lack of Enya-related content, though I suppose one could say that the nature of the question is inherently Enya-related, seeing as how it concerns her ancestors. ;)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997
From: clancyj@forbairt.ie
No, there is no creation story that we know of in Celtic mythology. Almost all the Celtic myths that have survived in written form concern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, and most concern Ireland. The Lebor Gabala (Book of Invasions) describes how Ireland was settled on five different occasions. The first two groups died of plague or famine. The third group were the Fir Bolg (Bag Men), who were eventially defeated by the Tuatha De Danann (people of the goddess Dana or Danu). The last group were the Celts.