Faqir Chand: I cannot say it was white. But I can say that it is more than white [as in a literal color].

Mark Juergensmeyer: And the sound?

Faqir Chand: Yes, sound, I used to listen [to] - bells, thunders of cloud and veena. But now I listen only one Sound, which is an unbreakable tune, about which I cannot say any word. It is what it is. But what does it give to me? It gives peace and bliss. Now at this age of 92 years I do not care for the sound and light too. Why? Because light is seen by "Me" [Self] and sound is heard by "Me" [Self]. Then who is great? Light or sound or He who sees it and listens to it? Who is great? Light is great or "I" [as Transcendental Self] am great? Sound is great or I am great? The self of mine is the supermost Element of consciousness in my body. If that is not there then sound is of no value and light is of no value to me. That is what I have realized. I do not know about myself, brother, what will be my end. You have come from America. Whatever I have realized I have told you.

     Now, after having a long experience of my life, I feel that most of the past mahatmas and the present gurus by keeping the secret Truth unrevealed/undisclosed have been unfair to the public and have often exploited them. They have taken undue advantage of the ignorance of the people. They have built their own big buildings. They have made air-conditioned rooms for themselves. These gurus enjoy themselves and the poor people being ignorant give their hard earned money to these gurus at the cost of their comforts and those of their children. I do not deny I receive donations, but I personally do not use even a single penny out of these donations. My own son is well placed. He draws about Rupees 2500 per month. He is a big metalurgist, Russia returned.

Mark Juergensmeyer: Yes, what does he do?

Faqir Chand: He is at Bhilai Steel Plant as a metalurgist. So I have my own means of earnings. Whatever is received here in the form of donation is spent for the ailing poor and on publications published by the Mandir. My publications are distributed gratis. Daily I receive a lot of mail and some people write that my form is seen by them and [a miracle has been done] for them. But I am ignorant of all that. Whatever sometimes I say to somebody comes out true, and he thinks that I have done it. But this is wrong. I have not done it.

Mark Juergensmeyer: Then should one have a guru?

Faqir Chand: Guru means Knowledge; without guru we cannot achieve anything. Our mother is our guru, our father is our guru, our friend is our guru and the world around us is our guru. But the Real Guru who makes the Self free from the bondage of this world is called the Sat Guru. And to attain the Reality the Sat Guru must be a perfect man. Nowadays this guruism has become a source of earning one's keep.

Mark Juergensmeyer: You know, some people say that science is also a guru.

Faqir Chand Yes, science is also a teacher. But excuse me, unless someone is there to explain to you about it, you will not understand anything about it. Therefore, external guru is most essential and important. Although the knowledge is in the student, he cannot attain that knowledge without a teacher or a professor, who teaches him and makes him [come to] realize that knowledge which is within that student. But if the brain of the student is not capable and receptive then teacher or professor may do anything, he would not be able to understand it. Yes, anything else you want to ask?

Mark Juergensmeyer: Well, after you, will there be any other teacher?

Faqir Chand: I have no right to say anything about this subject, but I may tell you that where there is demand there is supply. It is the law of nature. When the public will face the troubles and when they will seek for peace, nature will create so many teachers. You know, there are different kinds of brains. If some accident occurs, some people rush to that place to rob the victims, some go there to give them food, some go there to give medical aid, some other goes there to know the cause of the accident and to thrash the person responsible for the accident, and still some other people go there to find out the ways and means so that such accidents may not occur again. The great brains come in this world as per the desires and the needs of mankind. All the great saints such as Mahavira and Buddha and others come according to the demand of the times. It is His will. I cannot say definitely, but this much I am certain that when there is too much heat nature automatically brings storms and rains. If it is too cold, then nature automatically brings heat. It is a natural process about which He only knows.

     About me, there are so many miracles attributed to me that if I write about all there would be a big book. But I say upon my honor that I do none of these miracles. It is either fate or the faith of the person concerned. In case of some trouble my disciples remember me, my image appears to them and helps them and they write to me, whereas I do not know anything myself. So from all this I have realized that every man is perfect. Be true to your own self. That is what my religion is. Do not think or dream of harming anybody for your personal benefit. This is the only religion that I have to propagate; then have this belief that there is one Supreme Power. Believe Him in any form you love or like - Jesus Christ, Rama, Krishna, Faqir Chand or Baba Charan Singh or anybody else. But have faith in one. Neither [the saint] helps you nor Faqir Chand helps you. It is your own faith, your own desire that helps you. . . .

     Well, my dear Mark, I do not know whether whatever I have realized is correct or incorrect. I do not claim that I am correct, but I have spent my life very purely. I have been true to my parents and I have been true to my officers. I am a retired military man. What I have realized after a long search is that one must not think ill or do any harm to anybody for one's personal benefit. Second, one must have faith in only one form, it may be of any God, Goddess or a Guru. Without Form one cannot reach the goal.
     For instance, you have passion, unless you consider a lady as your wife you cannot enjoy your passions. If you have to satisfy your greed, unless you believe anything as gold or currency you cannot feel happy. Similarly about attachment. If you do not consider someone as your son or daughter, you cannot enjoy the feelings of attachment. So, if you want to reach that ultimate goal, you must have faith in one Form thinking him Perfect.
     Therefore the worship of Christ, Rama, Krishna or Guru is most essential. In the beginning it is very essential. People think me to be a saint or realized man. Their belief makes them solve their own problems, whereas I am not even in the know of such things. It proves that everything is within you and not outside. The Radhaswami Faith, or the philosophy of saints, makes a man realize that everything is within you and not outside. I do not say that my search is final. Truth is not known to anybody. As you sow, so shall you reap. This is the law that governs this globe. Everything depends upon your own thinking.

Mark Juergensmeyer: Are there some other disciples of Swami Shiv Brat Lal?

Faqir Chand: Yes, there are a few.

Mark Juergensmeyer: Do they preach the same thing as you preach?

Faqir Chand: You see, the plane at which I speak everybody cannot speak. Why? Because I have got no attachment. I do not want respect, money or fame. This institution is a registered trust recognized by the government. Whatever anybody gives that is spent for the benefit of the public. Those gurus, who have personal interest, say things in different ways. My area is not too vast. Only the educated people come to me and those who have spent their life in meditation or sadhana. My teaching for beginners is not suitable. I know it. But I cannot now teach A.B.C. It is not in my power. Only the professors, teachers, doctors and judges come to me the most, because they understand what I say. Everyone of us is a bubble of consciousness. But there is egoism in it. Egoism of body, egoism of mind, egoism of soul and egoism of surat. When this egoism goes away what remains? Silence in the beginning and silence in the end. Pass your life cheerfully.

Mark Juergensmeyer: Do the women face any difficulty in realizing themselves?

Faqir Chand: This I cannot say. Ladies must know themselves. Very frank talk it is. They know better about their difficulties, but I may tell you one thing. He who indulges much in sex cannot realize Reality. This is my final research. This is what I told the Americans last time and this is what I shall tell them again.

Mark Juergensmeyer: That means there is no difficulty to women.

Faqir Chand: No, soul of woman and of man is the same. When it comes in the material form only then there is difference. Some soul comes in the form of a lady or wife and the other in the form of a man or a husband. The modern science is proving many old beliefs to be futile. The angle of understanding is now different. The present educated people and the scientists are not going to believe blindly the religion as we have been believing in the past.
     I am not afraid of anything while I speak the Truth. Last time when I went to America I delivered a lecture to about one thousand Americans in the Research Association called A.R.E. and told them: "You say that Jesus Christ was the son of God; it was not only Jesus Christ who was the son of God, we all are the sons of God." I further said that "In the Bible [it states that] the earth is flat, whereas the scientists have proved that the earth is round. The first scientist who proved this fact was hanged." When I was telling this my friend Dr. I.C. Sharma [now Faqir Chand's successor] pressed my feet, so that I might not speak the Truth. But I said that was Truth, why should I not speak it?
     Even our Lord Krishna, who is believed to be the incarnation of God among Hindus, lost all his children and grandchildren before his very eyes, fighting against one another after drinking wine. What could Krishna do? Every man must reap the fruit of his own deeds. He may be a prophet, a saint or anybody. Even these incarnations have not been free from sufferings for their own action. Even some very great men died a miserable death. I do not know about myself, how would I die. Though at this age of 92 years I am better than many.

     My spiritual Father had asked me to change the teachings. I do not know what should I change. He never told me to raise the voice of Be Man. He never told me to open this Library. He simply said to me, "Change the teachings." So, whatever I have realized, if someone cares for it, let him care, and if somebody does not care let him not. If someone wants to read my books, let him read. I do not care. If somebody wants to give some donation here for the help of the poor, let him give, and if somebody does not give, let him not. I have my own means of livelihood. I have my own home to live in.

     Last time I was sick for some days and then I remained here in this room. When I went home I paid 45 rupees to the Mandir as a rent of this room. I might be wrong my friend. It is possible, but my conscience is clear. I am True to my "Self." In other ashrams people take service from the disciples for gardening and other odd jobs. But I never get such work here from anyone. If somebody wants to do any service willingly, let him do it. But I do not want to ask anybody.

Mark Juergensmeyer: There is a framed letter from Virginia. Do they proclaim you as their guru?

Faqir Chand: Yes, they love me dearly.

Mark Juergensmeyer: But you do not want to be a guru?

Faqir Chand: I have never initiated people as others do. Whatever I say in my discourses is the only "Nam" or initiation. Those who believe me take my hints and act upon them. They are benefited. If anyone with sincere heart comes to me with any desire, I wish that his desire be fulfilled.

Mark Juergensmeyer: What is the significance of the word Radhaswami?

Faqir Chand: Radha is our Real Self; Swami is that place from where it has oozed out. Radha is Real Self, which is neither body, nor mind, neither light nor sound. To take that Self back to its origin and the state of reunion of Self with its Origin is called Radhaswami, this is what I have understood.

Mark Juergensmeyer: For meditation, is this word a mantra?

Faqir Chand: First one must undertake such meditation as may take the meditator away from the physical senses. This practice is known as the repetition of Nam given by the master to his disciple. So by repeating that Nam, not with tongue but with mind, here amidst the eyebrows, you go above the physical senses, as you go above in the dream while sleeping. Then comes the mental region, from where the thoughts ooze out. As the process of thinking starts, different kinds of pictures and scenes come before us. To surpass them or to go beyond the mental region and its creations, you are to undertake the practice of dhyan of the master. We people [have a tendency to fall asleep and dream] by this practice, but by concentrating on the face of a guru, provided one thinks him as the real master and Perfect, then the mental senses will also cease, or the meditator shall not have any feeling of mental existence as well.
     Beyond this is the Light. The entity which lives in the Light, sees the Light and enjoys the bliss of Light is our Soul or Atma. Beyond that is Sound or Shabd. When one listens to that Sound one forgets all about the first three stages that [comprises a trinity]: body, mind and light. That is the 4th stage according to the saints. But I have realized the 5th stage too. Reference to 5th stage is also made by Saint Kabir in his writings. But that cannot be understood by everybody. The 5th stage is that condition where one loses one's entity as an individual. Self merges in the Supreme as a drop mingles in the ocean. So far I have not been able to merge myself in that 5th stage. I try my best, but I fail. Why? I do not know. Therefore, I say that it is not in man's hands to reach that stage. It is either His Will or the destiny of a man. So, at this age of 92, I surrender myself to that Supreme One.