E-MAIL AND FEEDBACK RECEIVED


This conversation will simply not end.

My email address is estle@purdue.edu



Red indicates Mr. Ocoma's writing.
Blue indicates my writing; editorial comments are in italics.
QUICK LINKS TO THESE LETTERS:

His thirteenth letter
My reply to that
His fourteenth through eighteenth letters
My reply to that, finally closing this conversation.

Letter 13:

Dear Nathan,

I'm glad you responded to my letters. I asked you about your thoughts about Jesus' existence because I wanted to know if you agreed with David Mills' view that Jesus didn't even exist. I think this is a very important issue because one cannot believe in Christianity without believing Christ's existence. I see that you have not made an opinion about this, which is just fine, since I could still try to prove Jesus' existence. Since this is not actually the main point of this letter, I'll just give you the evidence that Mills wasn't able to respond to. This is the evidence of Christ's enemies themselves (I'm using G.K. Chesterton's technique of using heretics to defend Catholicism). This certain enemy is the Sanhedrin. Contrary to your statement, there was a document that professed Jesus' existence, written by people who actually saw him. This document is the Jewish Talmud. In it, the Pharisees called Jesus "bastard" several times, and gave him the title "false-prophet."

Now, I don't know exactly when the Talmud was written (I do know that it was written in the first century, and I assumed, by the same people who persecuted Jesus). But even if you could prove that the Talmud was written by the later Jewish authorities, one could still be puzzled why the Jews would even write about a heretic who never existed, as if he did exist. And why in the world would any Jew living in Palestine believe some band of peasants who claimed the existence of a Teacher who taught in Palestine and who died some days before, if that Jew never saw that Teacher at all? Of course, one could just wonder why even a Roman Emperor would also affirm this man's existence. But that also did happen, for after hearing Ignatius' profession of faith, this emperor asked "Are you talking about that man who was condemned under Pontius Pilate?"

Let us now get to the point of this letter. Saying that the first watchamacallit seconds after the Big Bang does not rule out the existence of a Creator. It simply further ruled out the prospect that physics could ever prove God's inexistence. Thanks for strengthening my position on the matter. Besides, my work on Aquinas' proofs had nothing to do with this "fact" that you generously gave. I simply said that everything in a godless universe must have a cause, and only a God who does not have a cause could account for the existence of anything. Never in those lines could anyone find anything contradictory with any natural science. Conservation of energy? Well, God could have made the universe saying "the amount of all these energy will never be changed as long as this universe exists."

Let us now continue with the point of this letter. Being outside of time does not mean that God will already know the specifics of the future (though, of course, he does know what the future will generally be; He planned it). Are you saying that by escaping from time, God will already see what something that does not exist yet? Do you even realize that there are an infinite number of possibilities for the future? Do you really think that by going outside time, One will already know which possibility a being of free will would choose (of course, He knows what will happen to the things that do not have free will; He has planned it already)?

And if God seems to be dependent upon Logic (since seeing the "exact future" is illogical), it is just because God is Logic itself, just as God is Love itself.

How could have those prophecies been fulfilled? It was because of God's Divine Providence. He already had a plan, a necessary plan in fact, and He had the omnipotence to carry out those plans, all without doing anything illogical.

Who knows? Maybe God used the devils, just as He used them in Job's case, to fulfill His plans. Surely the devil tempted Judas to betray Jesus. Who knows? Maybe God used men's conscience to fulfill His plans, since part of the conscience is God the Holy Spirit Himself. Whatever happened, God as we know Him had all the necessary tools to fulfill his plan, without sacrificing Free Will.

- Francis

"Why does God permit evil if He is so Good? Because he is so infinitely good and at the same time infinitely powerful, that He could create good out of evil." - St. Augustine


My Response:

Francis:

Please cite sources for the following:
1. Jewish writings outside the Bible that mention a man named Jesus.
2. A Roman Emperor who knew of a man executed under Pontius Pilate named Jesus.

You must qualify these outrageous statements with some kind of documentation.

Quote:"Saying that the first watchamacallit seconds after the Big Bang does not rule out the existence of a Creator. It simply further ruled out the prospect that physics could ever prove God's inexistence. Thanks for strengthening my position on the matter." I'll go you one better. I say that nothing can disprove the existence of God. Not just physics, but anything at all. Except of course, the contradictory qualities believers attach to him.

Now, you also said that nothing in the original Summa "proof" was contradictory with the natural sciences. Maybe. But my whole point with that time stuff that you skipped over was that the natural sciences are irrelevant in discussions of the beginning. Only quantum mechanics come into play.

So, this stuff:"Every singular system that changes must have been changed by something else, for a system cannot change itself (the internal of the system cannot move the system)" and this stuff:"Conservation of energy? Well, God could have made the universe saying 'the amount of all these energy will never be changed as long as this universe exists'" do not apply. In quantum physics matter comes in and out of existence all the time. The point was: Newtonian physics, like conservation of energy, do not apply in quantum physics and therefore are immaterial when considering any beginning.

And this is a simple concept that is beyond your grasp. When discussing a god outside of time, you don't understand at all. You simply don't get it. If a deity were to be outside of time, then those things that are, to us, past present and future, would all be the same thing.

You place God outside of time and say that he wouldn't know the exact future. Well, then he wouldn't know the past either. Or the present. Do you get this? To you, they are different things. To someone or something that is outside looking in, they are all the same. There may be an infinite number of futures. But there are an infinite number of pasts that can lead to this present. Any light bulbs going off?

Finally, you fall all over yourself to try to explain how a God could fulfill his plan and maintain free will. Well, it can't happen. He either (1) uses his omnipotence to ensure the desired result, removing free will, or (2) he has perfect knowledge of the future, which means there was never free will in the first place. You admit you are not sure how it is done, but you are sure that nothing illogical was involved. What? Get your head out of the sand. Borderline ludicrous...

Nathan

Letter 14:

Dear Nathan,

Hey! Nice to e-mail you again. I had to join my family for the Christmas vacation so I wasn't able to answer you e-mail. Anyways, I'm back.

Huh?! Don't tell me you don't know the Jewish Talmud (*shocked*)! You who claimed to have studied Judaism!...

The Jewish Talmud was a document written by the Sanhedrin some years after the death of Christ. It contained the teachings of the Jewish authorities about the new things that has happened in Jerusalem concerning their religion. I think it was a kind of Jewish ecumenical council document (kinda like the documents of the Catholic councils). Anyways, I haven't actually read it (there are very, very few available jewish literature around here in the Philippines). I only read about it from a book (one of Scott Hahn's) and the Internet (Catholic Answers [www.catholic.com], etc.). I also found a web page that lists the passages of the Talmud where the name of Jesus is mentioned (plus other non-Biblical documents containing references of Jesus' existence). You can visit it at:

http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/naij3.html

In 117, Emperor Trajan examined Ignatius, bishop of Antioch. When Ignatius mentioned the name of Jesus, Trajan asked, "Do you mean Him who was crucified under Pontius Pilate?" You can look it up in any of Ignatius' biographies. There is one in the EWTN Online Library:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/IGNATIUS.htm

Okay, so when talking about quantum mechanics (which you seem to have considered as the ultimate law of physics, though we can never know if it actually is correct), any proof or disproof of God's existence concerning Newtonian Physics will not be valid. But then again, the law "all things must have a cause" is not just Newtonian Physics... it is physics itself. Without this law, it is useless to explain anything, since one may simply say: "Ah, it just came here out of nothing." Without a cause to explain, physics ceases to exist.

Oh, yeah. Conservation also applies in quantum physics. What? Can two photons suddenly become twenty photons? Can any particle vanish completely to oblivion (yeah, photons can disappear from one place, but they reappear simultaneously in another place, kinda like "teleportation," so they don't actually vanish, they just change places)? Uh, uh... Aquinas' proofs are still valid!!!

About Plank time, there is already a theory that is gaining popularity among physicists that states that time does not exist in the first place. Though, of course, we all know that Physics today is more of a trial and error business (no matter what physicists would want us to believe) with only a little amount of clues to help. That's why I like it, it's so exciting: it's like playing a very, very complex puzzle. It is an escape from the occasionally boring world of absolute authority in my religion.

Assuming that time does exist, your statement about eternity, past, present, and future has quite a big problem. Yes, there are an infinite number of pasts that can lead to this present... but the fact still remains that there exists only one past (or should I say, set of past events). All the rest of the logical pasts are simply inexistent logical pasts, that's that. And the fact still remains that there are an infinite number of non-existent futures... futures that only intelligent beings (i.e. humans, angels, and God) can choose and decide from. In this case, God has already chosen what happened in the pre-human past and what would generally happen in the future, but He leaves the less important decision making to humans (i.e. who will go to heaven or hell).

The individual human decides for himself, through his own actions, what kind of living will he want after this life, even if he doesn't even know God. Of course, God will always help us in our decision making (... so will the devil!). But whatever we humans decide will not affect the general future that God has already chosen (I will explain this in my next e-mail).

This is what we Catholics call "the doctrine of Divine Providence," and this is the true manifestation of God's omnipresence AND omnipotence. God is so intelligent that He can decide about certain parts of the future that no one else can decide about, and leaves the rest to us humans (though He still helps us on the way).

Finally, what I said was logical is that God would keep mankind's free will without sacrificing omniscience and omnipotence (I will explain why it is logical in the next e-mail). But since I have no idea of how God works *exactly*, I state my ignorance of the matter. That's what I meant, okay?

- Francis

Letter 15:

Dear Nathan,

This is a train of reasoning that proves the logic of Free Will

Given:
- God is the perfect, absolute actuality (Aquinas' proofs)
- God is omnipotent (implication of Aquinas' proofs)
- God is omniscient (")
- Love is Absolute Charity (the Catholic definition; freely giving of everything that one owns)

Proof:
1. If God did not love Himself, meaning, if he did not give everything to himself, he will not be perfect.
2. God must at least have self-love.
3. God must contain a kind of love.
4. Since God is perfect, his love must also be perfect.
5. God's love isn't just self-love, it must be a love that extends outside the being of God.
6. There must be, then, something outside the Being of God that God perfectly loves.
7. This something is Mankind. God has chosen that Mankind must exist in the consequence of His own existence.
8. Since love is the freely giving of oneself, God must have also given everything to Mankind. This is why we find in Genesis: "Let Us make man from Our Image and Likeness."
9. God must have also given the ability to love to Mankind.
10. Since love by definition must be free, Mankind must have some sort of Freedom.
11. This is what we call Free Will.

- Francis

Letter 16:

Dear Nathan,

I found this page on the EWTN website:

http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/conference.htm

This is a Q&A message board about the Catholic Church. I figured that since the people there are much (much) older than I am, maybe you would like to see if they could answer your arguments better.

Have a nice day!

- Francis

Note to reader: The next two letters were received from "Anonymous", but the writer had the same e-mail address as Mr. Ocoma and signed it "Francis". Ugh. This is nothing more than harassment now.

Letter 17:

Dear Nathan,

As you might have guessed while reading the subject of this e-mail, I have come across your interesting articles: Are You a Real Christian? (Parts 1 and 2). In fact, I was so much impressed by your technique that I am going to write an article called "Are You a Real Atheist?" I am also planning to write similar articles concerning other religions. Thanks for giving me inspiration. :)

These are your list of "What people should do to become Christians" Was the Christian Church able to follow them? You bet your Zeus-led pantheon it did!

- Sell all of your possessions.

In fact, the succesors of the Apostles (the later bishops) and the priests appointed by the bishops do not have any private unncessesary wealth of their own. In fact, most of what they "have" are not actual wealth but are, most of the time, simply donations (in the case of the early Franciscans, alms). Do you know that the Vatican is so poor that it has not paid its water bill for many, many years now?

- Hate your parents, your siblings, your children, and yourself

Your interpration of Jesus' words are erroneous (if not rude). What Jesus simply said is that one must put Christ above any other human being. This does not imply (in any way, in fact) that he should hate any other persons other than Christ. I can love my schoolmate while at the same time loving my sister more than I love my schoolmate. You get what I mean. Besides, Jesus himself has taught love of others (if you even read a single Gospel, you should know this).

- Take off your hat (men) or always wear a hat (women) in church

Ah yes! Another Protestant blunder. I guess you have never heard of the noun "sacramental" before, have you? The act of wearing veils (women) and not wearing hats (men), just like the act of doing the sign of the cross, are sacred and pious acts than are NOT necessarily required by the Church. They are very useful for the increasing of humility, and it is even a sin to judge them negatively, but one may be forgiven for not doing them. This is the same in the case of wearing formal outfits inside the Church, wearing scapulars, rosaries, etc. They are mere sacramentals. So there.

- Keep absolutely silent in church (womenn)

In fact, anyone (man or woman) should not be so noisy in the church, as that would at least be a venial sin (the house of the tabernacle is not a place for vain conversations). I guess Paul simply wanted to scold the majority of the women in his time who cannot keep their habit of chattering noisily (which we Filipinos call "tsis-mis") under control, even in the church. Why do you think "effeminate" is the title given to very chatty men?

- Don't become a minister or priest (womeen)

Feminists who complain about this tend to forget one teensy-weensy rule: - Don't become a nun (men). They even forget another rule: - Don't become a woman (men). And even another rule: - Don't become dogs (humans). See? The function of a man is different from the function of a woman, even if they are equal in dignity (of course, dogs and humans do not have the same dignity, but you get my point). Priesthood is a job for the masculine function. Just as Nunhood (or whatever the noun is) is only for the feminine function. No one in his right mind would call a woman "priest," though, he can call her a "priestess." (Thank God there's no masculine equivalent for "nun!") The thing is, the Catholic Church does not have a Priestesshood. Besides, ordaining a woman as a priest (or priestess, for that matter) is simply a contradiction of the definition of a Catholic priest: one whose body represtents the body of Christ during the Sacraments. How could a feminine body represent a masculine body (Christ)?

- Don't get married unless you absolutelyy have to have it

I must credit you for the most hilarious profanity I have ever seen. Anyways, "absolutely necessary" is not a reference to lust-- Paul condemned lust-- he did not allow anyone to commit lust. "Absolutely necessary" simply refers to God's Divine Plan, since God has a will for everyone of us (though, we are able to disobey His will for us through our own Free Will).

- Don't wear braids, gold, or pearls

In other words: don't succumb to vanity. St. Paul did not condemn vanity in itself-- vanity in itself is not a sin-- he merely warned us of the negative effects of vanity. Vanity is the cause of gluttony, pride, anger, and many other vices. And so, a virtuous person must at least have temperance to prevent vanity from making them sin: and a good way to avoid the negative effects of vanity is to not have vanity at all. Ergo, Paul's suggestion that braids, gold, pearls, etc. must not be worn. He merely scolded those who lived in vice because of vanity.

- Be able to cause fig trees to whither uup

The Catholic Church have been withering unworthy fig trees for almost two thousand years! It's called "ex-communication," Mr. Estle.

- Be able to command mountains into the ssea

I really do not see any need for anyone to command mountains into the sea, simply because mountains (and any other land mass, for that matter) are already journeying towards the sea! It's called tectonics, for your information. It was merely a figure of speach referring to the fact that a man with great faith will never experience the anguish of failure and helplessness, because he knows of the divine success that is above any failure.

- Be able to speak in tongues

If you were able to attend Mass from different parts of the world at the same day, read more than one translation of offical Church documents, and know the Doctors of the Church from different nations, you will realize that the Catholic Church has been speaking in tongues since the Apostles first spoke in tongues some two thousand years ago!

- Be able to handle serpents or drink poiison to no effect

I have been handling a serpent and drinking its poison for months now, and I am still quite intact. The serpent's name is Nathan Estle. Did you ever wonder how the Church survived two thousand years of persecution of serpents, those who vainly attempted to poison the Church to its demise, if the Church did not know how to handle them?

- Heal the sick with ease

There are four Sacraments attesting the the Church's ability to heal: Baptism, Eucharist, Reconciliation, and Anointing of the Sick. Not to mention exorcism. And do you know that many priests are also medical doctors?

You see, there is only one command that Jesus really meant to give to every individual Christian (not just the general Church, like the commands mentioned above). This is the command to love: Love God, first of all, and love everyone else. And this love is not an emotion. Jesus was not an emotional person. And so, a loving God is not the same as an emotional God (much less is He like an emotional, war God). And this is something that, although quite difficult at times, is very doable for every individual.

I hope you may learn how to love, not emotional affection, but Divine Charity. And from that, learn that it was God, who became man and died for men because of love, who gave you the ability to love.

Have a wonderful day and may God enlighten you.

- Francis

If the Christian God was an emotional war God, then he must be a very lousy one. Who could have thought that the God who tried to save a most ungrateful civilization and who surrendered his most valuable military weapon (himself) to his enemies was emotional and war-freakish? If God was emotional at all (which I doubt), then it seems to me that he has such a good self-control over his emotions that I really don't fear his being emotional at all!

Letter 18:

Dear Nathan,

some quich corrections to my last e-mail entitled "Am I a real Christian? You bet!":

In dealing with your citation of Paul's view on marriage, I made a blunder of not reading the verses completely (I merely tried to paraphrase them in my head). In the Biblbe passage, it says: "...But if they cannot control themselves..." I paraphrased it as "...But if it is absolutely necessary..."

Of course, if a person is inclined to lust, instead of living in celibacy (which would be a form of torture), he must marry, or at least try to conquer his temptations. Of course, having a wife to have sex with does not validate one's lustful intentions. But common experience has proven that it is easier to fight temptations of the flesh if you have a wife than if you live by yourself.

But this does NOT mean that all married men tend to lust. Paul was simply warning those inclined to lust that it would be hard for them not to marry. Paul maintains his stand that God has a plan (or gift) for everyone, whether he or she will have the gift of celibacy or the gift of fatherhood (cf I Corinthians 7:7).

Thank you for considering these corrections. I'll try not to make any more blunders next time. :)



My Response:

Francis:

You have essentially harassed me with five letters, and yet there is absolutely nothing worthy of a response. "Sophomoric" wouldn't even hint at the ignorance and imbecility on display in your letters.

This conversation is officially closed. I'll post your last five letters unchallenged (as if there were something to challenge at all) and then that's it. Send me no more letters. They will be neither posted nor replied to.

Nathan

Editor's note: Mr. Ocoma was pardoned as of 10-16-02, and is now free to submit letters again. As per his request, they will only be posted if I feel the conversation warrants public display.
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