Following are selected posts to Holisticat on the subject of feeding bones. There's a lot of information here, and if you'd like to follow the bone debate from beginning to end, the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utlize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

Happy hunting :)

Hi,
I might stand corrected here but I think that by cooking the bone you speed up the natural aging process. Cartiledge becomes bone, soft bone becomes hard bone and hard bones become brittle.

<<I think we've been over this before but does anyone know just how the bone changes in content/nutritional values after
cooking? I know I've read about this in one of my books....but don't have time to look right now.>>

I don't think there's anything too much wrong with cooking bones IF they are then ground up really well, but why bother? Can't you grind them fresh? Or give them to the cats whole? I would never feed a cooked, whole bone to the cats though. I believe that would certainly cause trouble since they get really brittle then.

I think we've been over this before but does anyone know just how the bone changes in content/nutritional values after cooking? I know I've read about this in one of my books....but don't have time to look right now.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids
 

I really do not see the point - I think that you are better off feeding all raw. Look for the cartiledge or Gristle in stewing meat or the wing tips of chickens and let them eat those. Then you know that he calcium phos ratios are correct too. JMO
Lara
Lara R

Hi Nancy, Lee, and all,

I'm cooking the bones and then grinding them for two reasons. One is that cooking them makes yummy chicken broth which I can then use. The other is, I tried grinding the bones raw and although the grinder did a mostly-good job, there were some bone shards. When the bones are cooked they are very crumbly (I can crush them easily between two fingers) and there are no shards when they come out of the grinder, just this grey/burgundy paste (yumm!).

If anyone's got any nutritional info on bones, whether cooked or raw, please post. I've done a nutr. analysis of my recipe, except for the chicken bones. If anyone's interested let me know and I'll post it.

Also does anyone have a nutr. analysis of Frazier's Vita-Mineral Mix? There is no info on nutritional yeast or lecithin granules in the USDA database.

Thanks, Donna

I should have waited before I sent the last posting.

Dr. Billinghurst said ( as you can tell, I just got his book) cooked bones are harder, more brittle and more splintery, and poor
nutritionally compared to raw bones. Their whole chemical composition has changed. Their protein (I guess he is talking about meaty bones) is of much lower quality, lost most of their fat, therefore their essential fatty acids and their fat soluble vitamins. The marrow, onece cooked is much less valuable nutritionally. One of the most important changes that occrs is to the minerals in that bone. It is probable that the calcium in the bone chemically combines with other minerals in the bone making them unavailable.

FYI
-- Yumi Guidotti

Dear Donna ~

You said that you cannot feed raw bones because they splinter.

It IS OK to feed raw meaty bones. Dr. Billinghurst is the pioneer of raw feeding ~ he absolutely says "YES" to raw bones.

No need to pull out your hair ~ just review the book again.

Deborah

Poor Donna!

No, you definitely can feed raw chicken bones. Just make sure your cat builds up to the hard ones (thighs, wings) by starting out on the necks and backs. Or feed smaller birds (such as quail) in the beginning. Or grind whole chickens, bone-in, with a meat grinder so you don't have to worry about supplementation.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

Yumi,

(Dr. Billinghurst's above info re raw bones) I KNEW I had read it somewhere. I wonder where he got this information though.... That would be interesting to know. I'm away from home - and away from my books. Does he list any sort of
reference for these comments? From what I remember, his book isn't very well documented.

Be well,
Nancy and the furkids

Nancy,

> I'm away from home - and away from my books. Does he list any sort of
> reference for these comments? From what I remember, his book isn't very well
> documented.

Yeah, you are right. He does not list any references. I sent him a fax asking him the bone questions though. IF I ever get a response from him, I will post it here.

By the way, if some of you don't have or know about his book, this is a dog book. In my fax, I also asked him what he feeds to his cats.

-- Yumi Guidotti

Donna,
we took in a little rescue kitty a couple of months ago - he was only about 5 or 6 weeks old (guesstimate) - anyway- he was too little to manage the chicken necks as they come, so I took a big meat "pounder" (looks like a metal hammer, flat one side, pointy on the other - for tenderizing steaks) and hammered the heck out of the whole necks.

The result was a smooshed up, non-sharp meaty meal with bone included! took less than 20 seconds to prepare (but you might want to cover it with cling- wrap first - the really meaty ones explode<G>).

We did this for him for about a week or so, then he could tackle them all by himself like a big fierce kitty<G>

Tracey R

Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:40:27 -0400

I feed quail a couple of times a week. I've been trying to get the whole quail from Chinatown with the head and feet attached. I wish I could get them uncleaned. Instead, I try to feed an organ-only meal once a week to make up for the organ meats they would have been getting if the quail had had the organs intact. Feeding half a quail every day would be great, but I would be too impatient to wait for Hester to finish her quail every single day. Bad enough waiting for her a couple of times a week.

Tracey, pounding the necks to a pulp to get new bone eaters used to bones is a great idea. I know puppy owners do that to wings inititally.

And those of you whose cats are turning up their noses at bones, just give it time. Some may never take to bones, but with others it will just take patience. It took Hester about a week to start eating them, and an entire month before she was eating the entire thing. First try the pounding thing. If that doesn't work, try pan-frying them lightly then decreasing the cooking time as you go along. Remember that cats can take a long time getting used to any new food, not just raw, so don't get too
discouraged. The benefits are immeasurable.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

> In Antira Frazier's book
> she talks about broiled chicken neck vetrebrae for cats. How long
> should I
> broil them, until they are charred, or just about fall apart?

Hi Sandy. Why cook them? Raw works just as well. Cut them up into 1-inch pieces to start, or even one vertebra, and give it to them *after* a meal. If your cats are not used to raw food, though, and refuse to eat them raw, try pan frying just the sides lightly. As they get used to necks, you can cook them less and less until they'll eat them raw.

Be warned, though, some cats take a very long time before they'll eat necks successfully. It took my Hester a whole month before she would crunch an entire neck. In the beginning she wouldn't touch it at all. Then she would give a a half-hearted nibble. Then she would actually try to eat the meat. Then she progressed to actually chewing on the whole thing and maybe gettting some of the bone. Then finally she was able to eat all of the bone.

Good luck!

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

> Peggy why after a meal with the chicken necks?
>
Hi Sandy. 'Cause bones can irritate the stomach of a cat not used to bones. I wouldn't try bones on an empty stomach until a few months into bone feeding.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

Sandy,
I am lucky in that my entire crew will eat chicken necks "as is" but I found for the kitten when he was too little to manage the big (to him) bones that smashing them with a meat tenderizer till they went all "floppy" worked. You might want to try this if you are going to broil the necks a little before offering them, although they will still be a little "sharp" I would
imagine - only way to avoid that totally and still feed the whole thing is to grind it.

When I was very new to raw feeding that is what I did with all my poultry bones- ran them through our kitchenaid grinder attachment and they came out like slightly "gristly" ground meat - no sharp bits at ALL and I would imagine you could gently pan brown that to interest the more "finicky" kids.

My one Great Dane boy used to hate the consistency of raw liver - only way he would eat his liver was if it was very lightly pan browned - the inside was totally raw it was just heated enough to change the color of the outside but I think the raw was too "slippery" feeling on his tongue<G>.

Good luck and keep trying!
Tracey R

Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 06:29:47 -1000
Sandy,

I've been using bone dust for ever since I found Wysong and Joan Harper's book. It's inexpensive. They used to give it to me for free, but now they charge 5 cents a pound, which is still cheap. It lookes like ground meat, but dry. I guess
this is like you grinding your own bones.

I always buy in bulk and freeze it in portion. That's way I was told parasites will die.

Yumi G

Hi all
Kristine, I think it's great news that your kitty is eating the necks, but if that's all he's eating it may explain the vomiting. Often when cats vomit bile or foam it's indicative of an empty stomach, and perhaps the empty stomach is nauseating him. Also, when I first started feeding Annie necks she'd vomit also, but that's because I made the mistake of feeding them to
her on an empty stomach. I've learned that for Annie, it's best if she's eaten something first.
Hope this helps
Take care
Kathy and the cats

Date: Wed, 12 Aug 98 19:44:35 -0700
From: <arora@>
Yumi,

I agree totally - raw is best. But one of my cats suddenly  refuses to eat the necks unless I boil it a bit:( That's why I was recommending others try it too to get their kitties interested in the necks. FWIW, necks are the only thing I'd cook (under duress from Missy the American princess); no other bones cuz they would get brittle and break.

Oh one other thing for people whose cats refuse chicken necks - see if u can talk a butcher either at a grocery store or otherwise, to give u a Cornish Game Hen neck. They are much smaller, and the only thing Missy will eat happily w/o cooking. One time, a butcher gave me a whole bunch free just cuz I was the only one who asked (I ain't that good-looking! <vbg>)

Sandy

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 18:15:34 -1000

I just got though talking to Dr. Billinghurst.

He said the paper about raw bones and cooked bones are in the box, and has to look for it. But Raw bone will provide all known essential minerals except the Methionine. But there are plenty in Raw meat. So if you give your cat meaty bones, it's ok.

He said, for cat, basically follow the book, but cut down on veggies. He said grain is not necessary.

Sorry, I am not a good reporter, so that's all I could get out of him. Plus my Japanese accent and his Australian accent.

If anyone is interested in his book, send me a private email. I ordered in bulk for my people, and still have some available.

Yumi G

Pottenger's Cats (Bones)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:14:54 -1000

Just for your info http://www.price-pottenger.org/Articles/potscat.html   Raw vs Cooked, talks about enzymes

Yumi G