Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:35:56 -0500
From: <mbernard@>

Nature's Toothbrush

Imagine this scenario. You are at your dentist's office for your annual dental check-up and cleaning. When he's through with the cleaning, he gives you a sample of a new product called T/D Cookies. "Start eating these cookies after every meal to help cut down on tarter." He says. Would you go for this? probably not. What if you were unable to brush and massage your gums on a daily basis? Think of how your mouth would feel. Would you rely on granola and pretzels to clean your teeth?

I find it hard to believe any dehydrated food product such as dry cat food can clean teeth. I watch how my cats eat their chunks of food and bone. They turn their heads to the side and use their premolars and molars to cut or slice the food, then they swallow it. They don't chew for an extended period of time like an herbivore would. How in the world is a food like Hill's T/D (tarter control formula) or the like supposed to clean teeth if it's not thoroughly chewed? What about massaging the gums?

Cats, when eating their natural prey, cut or tear their food into manageable chunks, then swallow the chunks whole. It's the cutting, slicing and tearing that will clean teeth, not crunching on cereal. In fact, the processed carbohydrates in dry cat food may actually be causing the food to stick to a cat's teeth a bit like white bread.

Are we left with having to brush our cats' teeth daily to keep their mouths healthy? I can just see my seven cats lining up at the bathroom door every morning to have their teeth brushed. Right! There is an easier way.

First, if you insist on continuing to feed dry food, feed on a schedule (preferably once a day for adults [pregnant and lactating females more frequently]) and remove any uneaten food after approximately 30 minutes.

Next, add some RAW bone such as chicken necks and backs or wings to your cats' diets. Note. I said RAW. Do not feed cooked bone, COOKED bone splinters. Raw bone does not. Nothing cleans a cat's teeth better than raw bone. If your cats
won't eat bone (and some won't right away, be persistent) try feeding large (mouse-size) chunks of meat (shredded or ground meat like that sold by Blue Ridge Foods isn't going to do it [don't stop feeding this meat, just add in bone]). If you've put your cats on a feeding schedule, they will be hungry at dinner time and less likely to turn their noses up at chicken wings or other bone. Offer the bone first, then feed your commercial food.

Catch your kittens when they are first cutting teeth and wanting to chew. That's when gingivitis can first set in. The kitten teeth fall out and the adult teeth come into a mouth that's already unhealthy. Let them chew on bone and learn at an early age. Help them to have a healthy mouth early on.

A chicken wing a day keeps the dentist away. Chicken wings are much cheaper than paying for dental work. Much less stress on your cat too.

Feeding a raw homemade diet is the optimum way to keep your cats healthy Inside and out.

Michelle T. Bernard

From: <BPrince@>
To: "'wordlady@interlog.com'" <wordlady@>
Subject: Grinding Bones
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 08:23:02 -0500

Dear Jean:
Received your email. Our Vita-Mix will grind chicken bones. It is advisable to break them up and cover with water before turning on the machine. Please send us your snail mail address and we will send you our brochure.

Sincerely,
Rebecca S. Prince
Sales Manager

Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:17 AM
To: Prince, Becky
Subject: Re: Grinding Bones

Dear Rebecca
When you say 'break them up', do you mean, e.g., that a thigh bone should be chopped in half before putting it in? Or could a thigh bone be put inwhole? How many bones at a time could be thrown in? Sorry to be so picky:-)

Thanks! Jean

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 12:41:10 -0500

Speaking of bones, I've come to believe that though wings and other  bones are good for the teeth, necks are the best toothbrushes. Just structurally, it seems they would get above and in between teeth better than any other bones.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:19:11 -0500

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Nature's Toothbrush

Aren't you afraid of whatever people get(name escapes me) from eating undercooked chicken,I won't want my 10 cats vomiting at the same time, I don't think I have that much slippery elm on hand.
--Donna

Well e. coli is one that people can get and is one of the most often heard about scare bacteria. Think about it though, cats in the wild eat all kinds of disease ridden animals. They have a amazingly accurate ability to pick out a weak or diseased animal which is easier to hunt. They eat meat from sources which have been left out in the sun and are swarming with flies and
such. There are tons of bacteria here. There are tons of bacteria everywhere. Yet they have survived for millions of years. These animals do NOT have access to stoves, oven or microwaves. In all likelihood, neither did your grandparents and great grandparents pets. Yet many of them lived to ripe old ages or met their demise in non food related ways. With any diet you feed there is always a danger of something or another happening.

In raw foods it is very small. Ice cream was a more likely source of trouble among other things such as eggs. Cats and dogs have a short intestinal tract which doesn't give the bacteria long enough to get a hold of them. They also have incredibly strong digestive abilities, far faster and stronger than that of humans. And humans do not exactly have a horrid weakness to bacteria. If a person is healthy and has a good immune system there is no reason they should not be able to handle bacteria, even the e. coli. Of course if you have an animal that is not healthy or has a bad immune system you would want to think twice about this.

Cooking actually lowers the benefits your animal is getting from the meat. It also makes the bones extremely brittle and subjects your pet to the horror of punching holes through the stomach lining. Non cooked bones are soft. The next time you are cooking chicken for yourself look at the bone and feel it. Try breaking it. Most likely you can do it without much effort. It is an excellent source of absorbable calcium and the bone marrow is wonderful as well. If you feel uncomfortable with feeding a BARF diet then contact your holistic vet and have them walk you through it.

After being told that if I fed my pets anything other than kibble I would be doing serious harm, being an irresponsible and cruel owner, and such I needed a LOT of handholding. I also read a ton of books on the subject. And if you are not the squeamish type go find out what you have feed your pet in the commercial kibble. Compared to some of the stuff in there, a little bacteria is the least of your worries. A natural kibble is better, but IMHO a raw natural diet given to them the way God intended is the very best.

You may or may not see vomiting or loose stools at first. I have heard people who have had the hardest time with it and people who have made the switch from kibble to BARF in one day no trouble. To make it easier, if you are using a commercial food, switch to a natural and then start mixing that with a raw diet. Keep in mind also that loose stools, gross though it may be, have a function. It is the body's way to gets all the nasty gunk our body does not want out as quickly as possible. It flushes the system out. You should NOT see diarrhea which is quite different and not normal.

When I started giving natural foods I started by giving apple puree to my dog after he constantly was stealing apples. I use apple slivers as a treat, although unless it is sauced the animal can't digest it. No one can eat apples in this house without him landing on their laps.

None of my animals has ever had an adverse reaction to raw foods. Stools are smaller, harder and they do not smell as much. Bad breath is all gone, and all three had sewer breath.

Gas in my dog, which was bad enough to clear an entire stadium is gone.

My animals have soft, shiny beautiful coats. They do not shed as much, which is a blessing for those of us who are allergic to cats and dogs like myself. Their teeth have gone from plaque to white. The vet techs where I work saw my dog and said they have never seen such white teeth on an animal.

They all have more energy, this I could have lived without. LOL They are able to focus on training better, this goes for the kitties too which know a few tricks. Even Tasha, my stress puker tabby is maintaining weight despite her constant state of stress and vomiting.

I also give my guys and gals a seameal supplement, which I take also. Also carrots, apples, green beans, kale, and other vegies to them. I do hunt so they also get venison, perch, pheasant, ruffed grouse and such. They love this, and when I am butchering you could not beat them off with a stick to save your life. They have their favourites, just like any kids. Cinders and Tasha get dibs on the eyeballs, tongue and heart.
Sincerely,
Amanda

From: "Kathy B"

I agree with Lee's advice about a bland diet. You may want to try a protein that isn't commonly available, such as lamb or venison if you can find it. My vet's reasoning for this is that because cats don't usually (if ever) get these foods, there's little chance that they'll be allergic to them. You can try adding foods from there. Also a bland chicken / rice diet is a good place to start. One thing I'd be very cautious of, though, is to make sure you're adding bonemeal at the ratio of 1 tbsp per pound of meat.

Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:33:36 -0800
From: "Sandy"

Hi all,

I'm really behind on personal email so if u don't mind, I'm posting this to the list b/c about 10 of u wanted more info on this grinder. BTW, neither I nor the person who originally sent me this info have any commercial interest in either the firm that makes the grinder or the firm that sells it.

The phone # for Chef's Catalogue is 1-800-338-3232 . The item# for the Italian-made VillaWare 1.9 amp, 200 watts meat grinder is 7815 and the price when I ordered it in mid-Dec was $129.99. They also have a web site u can check out http://www.chefscatalog.com When I ordered it, they had close to 150 of them in stock.

In addition, a very kind woman from another list told me to give them this code CF3023 which when they enter into their computer comes out to free S&H for all orders over $50. Now I was told this was a special during Xmas but hey, never hurts to ask. So I got mine for a total of $129.99 b/c no sales tax either since they are located outside of CA.

Kate asked if chicken was a problem as regards the small chute, and I checked w/ the kitty chef John. He sez as long as u use a sharp knife and cut along the major bones, no need to cut 'em into small chunks or  anything cuz chicken bones tend to be so much smaller than turkey ones. It took us less than an hr between the 2 of us to grind 2 4lb chickens (in their entirety) and 2 lbs of veggies. And clean-up is a breeze. John loves this grinder a lot; it was an Xmas present from his cat
daughters (like he wants any other kind!) <g>

Hope that answers any questions anyone might have. If not, lemme know, ok?

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats one of whom has a credit card in her name - Missy (she goes by her daddy's last name)..can u believe some maroon sent her a credit card?? LMAO!

From: Sandy
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 04:03:02 EST

>the Year 3000 <g> could I ask again about the bones ... Sandy, do you mean
>you just cut the meat off the bones (such as thigh, drumstick, back) so
>that they'll all fit through the chute, or do you mean that the major bones
>themselves have to be cut in pieces?

Jean, all the bones were ground up really well, and they were all put in as is w/ the meat still on 'em. John just cut up the chicken into about 9-10 peices - 2 wings, 2 thighs, the neck, the back into 3, and so on. And then just threw 'em in the chute, and out came ground up meat + bone..real cool! I was at first drooling over the VitamMix but it was $400:( Oh there is the Canadian-made Moulinex grinder too. Have u seen that one? If u like I can look for the URL. I think it'll be cheaper for ya. A lot of people use that grinder for the bones and everything.

Sandy

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:31:43 -0800
From: "Sandy"

Hi Jean,
Just found that site which has the Moulinex grinder. U can check it out locally. Kathy looked for me at Bay Dept. Store and the one she found was less powerful so I finally got the VillaWare. I know some people who have this grinder and they say it handles the bones just fine. http://www.edmart.com/search/sasco/index/products/8698.htm

Sandy

From: "Diane "

Hi Jean...

> Ideally shouldn't my cats eat bone-in raw food to clean their teeth
>and get the correct amount of calcium? But Saski has a bit of a time
>chewing bone - so if I grind up the bones in the meat to avoid that problem,
>then he  doesn't get the teeth cleaning. If I both grind and feed bones, is
>he getting too much calcium? A-a-a-r-r-r-g-g-h <frustration> I wish I
>knew what I was doing.

I am certainly no expert - in fact, I am a newbie at this whole raw-food business - but, it is my understanding that the acid in the raw meat is as important in the teeth-cleaning process as the bones themselves. So, if your cats are getting raw meat, ground up bones, and maybe some small pieces of chicken wing once in a while, their teeth should be adequately cleaned. My older cat can't deal with large pieces of bone very well, as she is missing one of her molars, so I use a meat cleaver and chop whole chicken wings into bite-sized pieces. This way she gets the exercise and whatever teeth-cleaning she can from chewing small pieces of bone.

Just my two cents....and I wish I knew what I was doing also! <sigh>

Diane

Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:02:44 -0500
From: Vick

hey everyone --

my apologies for starting a thread then dropping out of existence... it's been a rough week, and a weekend of playing catch-up on stuff that isn't nearly as fun (but does pay the bills...)

anyhow, on the bone meal -vs- calcium bit.

sandy wrote:

> We know what's in bonemeal. So, what's in real bones? Are they the
> same? If so, then why is bonemeal bad other than the fact that it is
> cooked whereas cats would normally eat 'em raw?

yumi answered that bone meal is more or less the same thing as bones. and you're right, for most cats, i'd say use bone meal (or real bones). but my line of thought is one of diet modification for an animal w/ a chronic condition, like sam seems to have... there is obviously something going on in a cat who has been on a raw diet for a year who is    still experiencing struvite crystals...

struvite crystals are (chemically) magnesium ammonium phosphate  hexahydrate -- which to me translates to too much Mg and Phos crystals are urinary precipitates, which leads me to believe that sam is getting too much Mg and Phos in his food. skippy has been eating ground meat with bone meal for 4 months without any problems, so perhaps this demonstrates that some cats (probably most of 'em) do okay with bone or bone meal and some cats don't

> If indeed real bones have the same Cal, Phos, Mag and trace minerals
> then wouldn't u want that to be replicated by the bonemeal? Wouldn't
> switching to just Calcium cause an imbalance? Reason I'm asking is that
> isn't Phos acidifying? So by cutting back on Phos, wouldn't it
> exacerbate FUS and other probs caused by too lo urine acidity.

i guess the test here would be to switch sam to calcium instead of bone meal and see if he gets Ca oxalate crystals :)

seriously, in the book i just got (thanks mom :)) "The Holistic Veterinary Handbook", one of the steps in the 'holistic rationale' for treating FUS is to increase disease resistance, *reduce the ash content of the diet* (my emphasis), increase water intake, acidify the urine, encourage frequent urination, and give a urinary antiseptic. the author (Dr. Wm Winter) believes that the root of FUS is "processed, cooked pet food".

so i *think* that by reducing the ammt of Mg and Phos in sam's diet, i am reducing ash (been a long time since i've seen all this stated explicitly). there's also a woman on another list who says to not feed FUS cats bones. i've replied to that post in hopes of getting more concrete info from her, and hopefully, figgering this all out.

from what i can tell, i'm balancing the Phos in meat with the Ca in the CaCO3 supplement. in the "quick feline meatfest" recipe, pitcairn calls for 1 1/2 teaspoons bone meal OR 600mg Ca OR 1/3 teaspoon of eggshell for 1 cup of meat chunks. that ammt of bone meal actually contains 2475 mgs of Ca - and 60 mgs of Mg + 1125 mgs of Phos... that's a LOT of
minerals floating around in the system....

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 06:53:32 -0500
From: Marilyn

The VitaMix will pulverize bones into powder!!! It will grind grains into flour!!! It will make meat coarse to pulverized!! It will make soft serve ice cream!!! It will turn vegetables into hot soup!!! And, of course, it will do anything in between. It does this in seconds. The blades are not sharp. Some water and a dot of soap, and it cleans itself. I don't sell them, I just love mine!!! Mine is the stainless steel model, and I have the professional model, that is seven or eight years old or older. It is also the
best juicer because none, I repeat, none of the fruit is thrown out. You just take the died part off the skin of an orange and turn it into juice. You just put in carrots and make juice. No seeds or pulp is cast off. Direction of the blades is instantaneous. Just as fast as you can flip the switch, or it can be run in one direction.

Marilyn

From: "Sandy"
Subject: Re: [HOL] bonemeal and grinding bones and meat

Sharon wrote:
>Now I want to start grinding my own. I am planning on getting a
>vitamix (as soon as I get around to ordering it). I know that this
>will chunk the meat for me but will it grind the bones?

Sharon, the VitaMix is really expensive - $400+ and since I already have a juicer and just about every other gadget known to (wo)man, I figured I didn't need something that would do what the other gadgets already do.  What I wanted was something that definitely ground the bones so I'm quite happy w/ the VillaWare grinder. It cost me $129 and I just feed the meat w/ the bones still attached, right into the chute. i put the eggs and supplements in there too so they get mixed in w/ the meat and veggies.

Took us 25 minutes to grind 8 lbs of meat and 1.5 lbs of veggies the other day, and clean-up took 15 mins. So it was well worth it. Best thing for me is peace of mind - not having to worry about how much Cal and Phos etc. cuz that used to drive me batty when I fed cooked meat. No going back for us.

Jillian wrote:
> birds you get all those yummy organs. BTW, I ground the meat up, but left the
> organs whole, & just tried to divvy them up sort of equally amongst the meals.

Jillian, my cats won't eat organ meat if I offer it by itself so I just grind 'em along w/ the muscle meat and bones. That way I don't have to worry about what day to feed them organ meat and how much. I don't think the whole chickens I get here have the brain (that would explain little Pigpen <g>..just kidding!) but they have the liver, heart, gizzard, kidney, and neck. So I'm still missing spleen, stomach, lung, and other "offal". I dunno how much nutritional value it has - probably not much but..

So, I too am thinking about getting some extra liver, hearts etc. and adding them in w/ the chicken. Last time I had John grind just the organs and I was amazed at what a tiny % it is compared to the muscle meat! Didn't look even close to 15% to me so I will get more organs and bring the % up to close to 15-20.

> Another thought....has anyone ever tried feeding mice? What a concept huh?

I looked into it locally and on the internet. It ain't cheap. Sometime ago we estimated how many mice a day and how much it would cost. Anyone still have that info? I'll dig it up otherwise. Seemed kinda steep based on the prices I was quoted here in SoCal. And I couldn't bring myself to grind mice:( John said he'd have no qualms but..

Sandy the squeamish, owned and operated by the mountain cats who love meeces to pieces

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:00:59 -0800
From: Kate
Subject: Re: [HOL] suggestions neededd

>> Will a food processer work---probably not for the bones, huh?

Sandy opined:
>No:( I even tried a Krups that looked like it might do the trick. Cost
>me $120 but when I brought it home and tried it, it wimped out on me
>after just a teeny bit of wing. So u'll need either a Moulinex or a
>VillaWare. Jean just bought a Mouli and several of us including myself
>have the latter. Both handle bones really well.

For people who have a Kitchen Aid Mixer, there is a meat-grinder attachment that works fine for bones.

Kate

From: "Tracey R
Subject: Re: [HOL] Kitchen Aid meat grinder

When I began switching to BARF I used to grind my chicken necks and rib cages in my kitchenaid - it did an OK job, but would get pretty hot and couldn't handle anything bigger than wings - no turkey necks and no chicken thighs without major heating and weird noises- when I posted to the Wellpet list about this someone wrote me and told me they had cracked their entire grinder casing (expensive :-( ) trying to grind chickens in it - so I would caution against grinding anything other than very soft parts in the kitchenaid - there are probably better products out there for the job.

Tracey R

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:34:11 -0500
From: Vick
Subject: Re: [HOL] Bones, digest, & iron supps

hey all --

whew - i am way behind thanks to a killer week (and it's only wed!) and tomorrow i'll be driving my foster d*g to jacksonville to begin his new life!! i don't think words can express how thrilled i will be to NOT have a d*g anymore....

Jean wrote:
> I find this whole calcium-phosphorus ratio business very murky! If you feed
> bonemeal, do you feed just that and no other calcium? And if so, why
> would that be extra phosphorous - wouldn't it be a natural balance?
> I'm very confused!

bone meal has phosphorous in it, whereas something like oyster shell or egg shell is pure calcium. the amounts of bone meal recommended *do* balance the phosphorous in both the bone meal and the meat... but with all the FUS kitties i've heard about on raw diets, there's obviously something we're doing wrong... sam is a prime example - according to most of the raw cat diet camps, i'm doing everything right - but he's still got something going on w/ his pH and he forms crystals... today i purchased plain old calcium carbonate pills that i will hopefully be able to grind up and use instead of bone meal.

in pitcairn's book, some of his recipes have bone meal, eggshell and calcium measurements. for example, in the mackerel loaf, you can use 2 teaspoons of bone meal, 2/3 teaspoon of eggshell powder or 1,200 mgs calcium. so obviously, there's extra Ph in the bone meal, requiring more of it to balance the meat.

> Ideally shouldn't my cats eat bone-in raw food to clean their teeth and get
> the correct amount of calcium?

ideally, they should. sam does, skippy is learning, but max and jez say no way. i am beginning to think that if you're having to add calcium, then calcium is what you should be using - not bone meal.

> so if I grind up the bones in the meat to avoid that problem, then he
> doesn't get the teeth cleaning. If I both grind and feed bones, is he
> getting too much calcium? A-a-a-r-r-r-g-g-h <frustration> I wish I knew
> what I was doing.

i wish i knew what i was doing, too.... it's basically trial and error sometimes, and lotsa listening :)

if ya grind up the bones, he's still getting a little abrasion, plus the meat itself is supposed to be good for cleaning. if you're successful with grinding bones in, keep with it. try big, marbled hunks of stew meat or chicken gizzards as cleaners. actually, turkey gizzards are the fave here - i cut 'em into quarters and throw 'em down the hall for the kids to pounce on and kill (the only way jez will eat meat, btw, is if it's thrown!)

Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel