<10 Mar 1999 From Michelle Re Free Feeding>
Here is an article I wrote on free feeding. I used to free feed my cats. The difference in these cats, after six years of eating raw food on a schedule is phenomenal. They were fat and their hair coats were bad.
I think it's important to feed cats as they would eat in their wild state. They do not have food available all the time in the wild.
While I never had an incident of FUS while I was free feeding (I only had two cats then); since I've been feeding raw, and I've had a lot of cats on this diet, and I've never had a problem with FUS in six years.
Keep in mind that pet food manufacturers are going to tell you what
you want to hear. If their food was proper to begin with, they wouldn't
have to make so many different formulas for the different ailments suffered
by cats now. In feeding raw, I feed the same food to everyone. No need
for S/D A/D U/D T/D or any /D formulas. I've had no kidney disease, FUS,
liver disease,
dental problems, etc., etc. in, at the minimum if you count the cats
I have now, seven cats. I've had as many as 15 in residence. I'd say my
food is proper.
Anyway, here's the article:
Cats are not cows. That is an obvious observation but why do so many cat owners feed their cat as if it was a cow or other grazing animal? I'm talking about free-feeding, leaving a bowl of dry food in front of the cat all day.
Physiologically, the cat sitting on your lap is not much different from a lion. A lion has to hunt for its food. Luckily for most of our cats, they don't have to hunt to survive. Otherwise, many of them would probably starve to death. That doesn't mean modern day cats no longer have the tools and digestive system necessary to hunt, kill, eat and digest prey animals. A cat that has to hunt for its food does not know when or where its next meal is coming from. Candy-coated mice do not sit around in bowls waiting for the cat to come in for a nibble.
Cats are designed to gorge on a meal, then not eat again for many hours or even days. This allows for proper digestion and elimination of the toxins associated with a meat-based diet. "Cats, being true carnivores, actually prefer a 28-hour eating cycle." Richard H. Pitcairn, D.V.M.
A cat is not finicky by nature. A finicky cat is created, not born. If you had a particular type of smelly food left in front of you most of the day, would you remain interested in that food? How many times have you had to change the brand of food you feed your cat because she or he would no longer eat it? Smelling food all day can actually decrease a cat's appetite. I don't think I could keep the solid muscle weight on my cats if I left food available all day.
Smelling food triggers a cat's digestive system to begin working. Constantly
smelling food, even if it is only an empty bowl that the food was once
in or a bag of dry food left on the counter will keep the digestive system
primed and ready to go all day.
Munching on dry food throughout the day does keep the digestive system
working and the stomach never gets the chance to completely empty as it
should. The digestive system requires quite a bit of energy to operate.
Keeping it going throughout the day by allowing constant access or exposure
to food is pulling valuable resources from other systems and possibly prematurely
aging the cat. This can also result in improper hair coat and the tendency
towards cystitis.
A cat's digestive system needs a good long break on a daily basis. A 24-hour fast once a week is a good thing for a healthy adult cat. In the wild, this would most likely happen more than once a week. As efficient a hunter as the cat is, more hunts are unsuccessful than successful.
If you've got five or six cats eating from a community food bowl, chances are you are not going to know if one cat is off its food until you see a noticeable loss of weight. This could take days or weeks. I feed my adult cats once a day, at night. If one of my cats is off its food, I know then and there. If that cat appears otherwise healthy and doesn't eat for one night, or even two, I don't worry much, but if it goes beyond that, then I know I have a problem and address it.
As I'm sure you are aware, free feeding can lead to obesity. The pet food manufacturers have an answer to that problem by offering "less active" or "reduced calorie" food. If their food was proper to begin with, pet food manufacturers wouldn't have to offer so many different formulas, "for all stages of your cat's life." Improper food set aside, what we are looking at here is improper feeding practice. I free-fed my cats at one time. Sure, it's convenient. You fill the bowl and run. Keeping your cat in optimum health and condition isn't always about convenience. There's a little bit of extra work you have to commit to doing.
If you want to let your cats graze, then grow them a pot of wheatgrass to munch on at will. Most cats love fresh grass and it's very healthy for them. When it comes to their main diet, however, feed on a schedule. Put the food down and allow free access for 30 minutes or so. After that 30 minutes is up, clean up the food, remove the bowls and wash the floor if necessary.
Don't worry if you get home late from work a few nights out of the week. Your cat won't starve. Again, a cat in the wild doesn't eat on a schedule. He eats when his hunt has been successful. Your cat will be hungry when you get home, but that's a good thing. It is good for a cat to be hungry.
Think about when your best meal was. How hungry were you? If you had been nibbling all day, then were offered a wonderful steak dinner, would you enjoy it as much as you would if you hadn't eaten all day?
Michelle
<snip>
<< think, and this is my opinion, not really a studied thing,
that the smaller cats have too high a metabolism to eat just once or twice
a day. Let me ask on the non-domestic list I'm on.>>
<snip>
<<That is exactly what bothers me about people trying to make
comparisons with "cats in the wild"; our cats aren't "in the wild"
- even your ferals, as you point out. I still think it's harder
on older domestic cats to expect them to only eat once a day, that's
why I feed mine (raw/cooked) 2-3 times a day.>>
I've thought about this subject most of the day today. While I do not disagree that a smaller wild cat may eat more frequent meals throughout the day than a larger cat who would kill larger prey and not eat as frequently the physiology of the cat, be it a large cat or a small cat isn't any different.
Dry cat food is not a proper diet for a cat, there's no two ways about it. Leaving dry food available in a bowl all day compounds the issue. The current state of feline health tells me that. FUS, kidney disease, dental problems, cancer, etc. - it's all coming from somewhere. What does the general population feed their cats - dry food. How do most of them feed their cats? They free feed.
Many of you are on this list because you currently have or have had a cat who was ill (or died) that you used to feed commercial dry or canned cat food to. You hopefully discovered the benefits of a natural, raw diet for your cat and are now feeding it. Would you go back to feeding dry food? Probably not. I did not come to this list because my cats were sick. I switched my cats to a raw diet after reading The New Natural Cat. Luckily I caught mine in time before they became ill from the dry food I was feeding.
How many of you would leave a bowl of raw meat sitting out all day for your cats? I certainly wouldn't. Think of what they put in dry cat food to enable you to do this.
Keep in mind that cats are opportunistic animals. If there's food in front of them, they'll most likely eat it. If they can catch a mouse or bird, they'll probably eat it. While Debbie, you said you saw, "a feral get a bird, and 2 mice, along with the bugs he goes after. It obviously wasn't all at once. Then he came to the feeding station that night." Is this the norm? Probably not. Cats, even though they are superb hunters, miss more kills than they actually make. Think of the energy expended to catch a mouse or bird and how much energy is wasted if they don't catch it. Cheetah have to hunt more frequently than other large cats because of the amount of energy expended during their hunt.
The most important thing for you to remember here is that while a small
cat in the wild may eat more frequently than a lion, they are eating a
perfect food, not commercial dry food. They are also expending energy to
hunt. This is keeping all of their bodily systems in perfect running order.
Our domestic house cats don't have to hunt for their food. They don't have
to
expend energy to get it. It is placed in front of them with great celebration.
They eat and that's that, they go off to do whatever, usually sleep.
I feel my cats, being domestic, not having to hunt for their food, and
for the most part not getting their natural prey source, need a good amount
of time between meals to digest the meat that they eat. I want their bodies
to clear out the toxins that are in even a natural diet. I don't want them
digesting food all day as they would be if they were eating more frequently.
Beef, chicken and turkey is different than what a cat would eat in
the wild. I expect given modern day farming practices it's no where near
as pure as a wild mouse or bird. There's toxins there. Certainly less than
what's in commercial food, but it's still there.
Feeding once a day is working for me. My cats who have been on this
diet the longest, six years, are in excellent health. Sure they beg for
food throughout the day, but who knows more about what's better for them?
ME. If it were up to them they'd be opening cans of tuna fish and boxes
of dry food. Commercial food manufacturers do a wonderful job of enticing
cats to
eat their food. Many of mine would turn their noses up at their natural
diets in a heart beat if given the choice between a natural diet and Friskies.
But would they be as healthy? I doubt it.
While you cannot completely compare your domestic cats to a wild cat, you can create a diet that is as close to what their natural prey would be as possible. This is what is healthiest for them. After that, you need to look at their life style, which is very different than a wild cat, both in activity level and the amount of toxins and stress they are exposed to.
Michelle
Hi all --
<<Seems like the general consensus is that SweetPea should get off of the Purina One and go homemade, right? Well, what does that involve? >>
Tricia, that should probably be your ultimate goal, but it's not something I'd undertake lightly (not saying you are)
Can you get Wysong where you are? They make a canned meat-only food from single protein sources that would be a good starting point (IMHO) while you do the research. Eliminating grains would be the easiest step to take, and you could add some baby food veggies and maybe a kitty vitamin and some taurine to the canned food.....
<<When I think homemade and cats, I think of broiling up some chicken and breaking into tidbits and letting them chow down :) Now, don't all eat me alive for that statement---it's to show that I am, I admit it for SweetPea's sake, ignorant about this type of stuff. >>
Homemade and cats varies from poster to poster and author to author,
which is why I think reading and research to determine what you're most
comfortable with is amazingly important. I feed raw and grainless, Leah
feeds raw with some grains, Judy (when she's not busy having visions of
shrew-induced FIP brought on by butt-thumping -- couldn't resist, and I
know ya have a great sense of humor, Judy :) cooks the foodies. And each
of us is convinced we're doing what's best for our cats!! Ya gotta do
what makes the most sense to you, and what is best for your cats....
<<The Aller'G Free is a pill that she gets once a day. I think it could eliminate her use of the steroids, if nothing else.>>
How long has she been on the pred again? Personally I'd keep my cat on the lowest dose of pred and do the diet change, wean off pred and use an herbal THEN if needed. And one without ephedra. I'm not at all a fan of pred, but using that and changing the diet seems to allow for the most understanding of what's going on. The combo herbal may confuse matters.... (Just thinking out loud and in no way making judgments:)
<<What about the venison and potato diet I've heard of? Is that any good?>>
If you're talking IVD (Innovative Veterinary Diets) Venison and Potato, I tried that with my ex-puker, Skippy and had limited success. It's made by Nature's Recipe (Heinz) so it's not at the top of the list, but by sheer virtue of it being an allergy food, I imagine it can't contain any scary chicken parts and road kill or it wouldn't be an elimination diet....
<<She was on wet food---Iams, I think, at the Hawaii Cat Foundation, yet she was still on her steroids. I have 2 goals---one is to stop the steroid use and the other is to STOP her itching.>>
In time you SHOULD be able to do both. (Unlike Judy who will simply have to settle for no clean laundry since, of course, our cats WILL live forever :)
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Hi all
Sandy, I just thought of something. If he won't eat meat, how about cooked fish for a time? Or, how about clam juice poured on what you want him to eat (if you haven't yet tried that), or tuna juice? There was a time when that's all Kashmir would eat (tuna, that is), but I was extremely lucky in that this phase didn't last long, and she did go back to regular food.
Any idea *why* he's not eating? Is he just being fussy or is he feeling
poorly? I recall that Jillian's Django refused to eat shortly after he
went to live with her, and my theory (correct or not, I don't know) was
that it was just the stress of relocating. And particularly what Sammy/Sullivan/Thor
etc <grin> has been through, maybe he's just had it with change and
stress. I do understand you need to get some food in him tho.
I'm a little leery of tuna for cats, but I also understand when that's
all they'll eat. If it doesn't last long you're ok, but if it does then
you may be in for a *real* battle when he decides that he simply will not
eat anything else. If it's tough now it may just get worse
He won't eat the tuna mixed with anything, which is a huge drag, but
maybe the tuna juice. Or how about some chicken soup? This is horrible,
but I discovered quite by accident that Kashmir and Annie go wild for Chunky
Soup Chicken and Corn Chowder. I don't at all remember what the ingredients
are in that, but what about something similar, like a stew of sorts?
Meatloaf? Shepherd's Pie? Some actual people food is what I'm thinking,
and just tossing out ideas as they come to me. Chicken livers? Salmon,
sardines? Mackerel? An omelette?
If I come up with more I'll let you know. Oh, how about kitten glop?
Some such thing so that he gets some nutrition even if he doesn't want
to actually eat?
Ok, again I'll see what else I can come up with. Edmund Dorosz (_Let's
Cook for Our Cat_) has some really ... curious recipes in his book, most
of which aren't *excellent* for cats, but I think they may be palatable
and get you through a crisis. I can send some to you if you like. Sending
"hungry" vibes to Mr. Red Gaelic
Kathy and the cats
Hey all --
Sandy, just a quick suggestion for your bratty little man -- turkey tenderloin. The paws down fave around here, even the raw-refusin' Max and Jez will scarf down tenderloin - and Max will even growl over it. And, turkey tenderloin is excellent broiled w/ some herbs and garlic, and smells divine, so John can cook it without grossing you out... (And who the h*ll eats boiled meat anyways?)
[snip]
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Hi all
Joan, when you say "in love", does that mean it's hormonal? Have you
tried bribe foods (clam juice, oyster juice, sardines, mackerel, parmesan
cheese, brewer's yeast, etc)? How much weight has he lost, and how quickly?
You may want to have him tested for liver problems, especially because
cats can so quickly slide if they don't want to eat. As well, it may be
important to
have him tested for other possible lack of appetite reasons. Not meaning
to scare you, but as you know it's important that he doesn't starve himself.
Kashmir had a bout with hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver) when she refused
to eat for awhile. She had already lost a lot of weight quite quickly,
and when she stopped eating that just made it lots worse. We were able
to turn this around with quite a bit of work and patience trying to get
her to eat. This isn't something I'd suggest lightly, but if it gets to
a point where he simply will not eat, forcefeeding is an option. And something
that helped Kashmir was Hills a/d (which believe you me, I also do not
suggest lightly). My leftover can of that has no byproducts listed in the
ingredients, which is a *little* comfort. Also, the kitten glop I suggested
to Judy earlier today might help. Chicken broth is a good one too. Is he
drinking ok? Dehydration is a definite concern as well, and if necessary
you may have to force feed him water, too. I hope some of these suggestions
help a little, and I hope your little boy is eating again soon!
Take care, Kathy and the cats
<<I have amale that is in love and not eating. He is losing weight daily. What can I give him to stimulate his appetite?>>
Ginseng and Royal Bee Jelly (a mixture you can buy in the hfs)can stimulate
both the appetite and the immune system. Allen Schoen mentions this
in his book _Love, Miracle, and Animal Healing_, p. 176. I used about
1/4 tsp per meal for my felv+ cat
George, who lost his appetite when he had a URI. It worked well.
Good luck w/ yr little boy.
Susan
I am certainly no expert....but, Kymythy Schultze, in THE ULTIMATE DIET: NATURAL NUTRITION FOR DOGS AND CATS, says , at the beginning of Chapter 5: "Don't give your pets peanuts, which are not true nuts but legumes, and may contain a dangerous carcinogenic aflatoxin".
Diane
Add almonds to that as well, contain salicylates like aspirin and white willow bark etc.
Dawn,
Also, you might want to check out this web page. it is written by a
d*g owner <g>, it has a lot of useful suggestions on technique and some
info which applies across the species barrier. It may help give you a little
more info re: making the switch to feeding raw...
<http://www.naturalrearing.com/Journey%20in%20Learning/Journey%20Main%20Index.htm>
sue
Hello Beth...
<<Help! I unwittingly got myself embroiled in a hot debate with someone (a vegan) over whether or not cats can thrive on a vegan diet. He feeds his cats a vegan diet and uses a product called "Vegecat" which he claims gives his cats all of the nutritional supplements they need. I maintain that cats require a meat-based diet. He has challenged me to cite scientific evidence of this. So, does anyone know of any studies that I can refer him to?>>
I'm certainly no expert on cat nutrition, and I can't cite any specific
studies....but here is what Diane Stein says in THE NATURAL
REMEDY BOOK FOR DOGS & CATS , p. 24:
"Raw meat is the central ingredient in optimal diets for both dogs and cats. Both animals are carnivores and require flesh-derived protein to live and thrive. Dogs can possibly survive on a careful (very careful) vegetarian diet plus supplements, but cats cannot. With the amino acid taurine, found only in flesh-based protein, a cat will die in less than a year. Synthetic taurine supplements that claim to make cats vegans are available, but the jury is still out on their long-term safety and effectiveness. Dogs and cats need their natural diets of meat, grain, and vegetables, and a responsible pet guardian provides it. Even though that guardian her/himself may be a happy vegetarian, her/his pets require meat."
Other books I have read strongly advise against feeding cats a strictly vegetarian diet.
Diane (and the resident carnivores, Motley and Taz)
<<<likes and so far he doesn't mind shredded zucchini but he won't touch tomatoes!>>>
<<Smart Boca, b/c tomatoes are a member of the nightshade family and they're not supposed to be very good for cats!>>
That's right about tomatoes...
Nightshade vegetables like tomatoes can aggravate arthritic conditions.
The nightshade family includes white potatoes, bell peppers, eggplant,
tomatoes, and probably some others. These veggies include a steroid
aklaloid called solanine that inhibits formation of collagen that makes
up cartiilage.
Melody
As a matter of fact, rat and mouse carcass is very well "formulated"
for cats regarding protein, fat, carbohydrate, and all
other nutrients. I just happen to have the breakdown for rat right
here that was supplied by a vet:
Protein:
approx. 50% dry matter basis
Fat:
approx. 40% dry matter basis
Carbohydrate:
approx. 1% dry matter basis
Ash:
approx: 5% dry matter basis
Energy density:
approx. 6.5 Kcal/gram
(the best commercial foods are about 4-5).
All vitamins and minerals are present in quantities which meet or exceed
the NRC recommendations for growth in cats. Calcium and phosphorus ratio
is about 1.3:1 which is dead on what it needs to be. Urine pH in cats eating
rat carcass is maintained at a very good, slightly acidic level of about
6.9-7.0. In other words, this is the perfect food. A big coincidence? I
think not!!!!
Kate
Hi Susan
<<Hi guys - I am compiling recipes for home cooked cat *food* and cat *treats* for my clients. Does anyone have a collection of them on disk>>
Here's an ASCII file with a few of Dorosz' cooked recipes. He gives permission for reproduction as long as proper credit is given (details in the file).
There are raw food recipes at
http://www.felinefuture.com
http://www.patmckay.com
http://www.blakkatz.com/diet.htm
I'm presently feeding Amber (who doesn't need any special diet):
Plus 400IU vit E a week.
And a couple of times a week I give a raw chicken bone or quail with
bone in.
Hope this helps woo your clients onto some kind of home-made diet!
Jean, Saski & Amber who feel very satisfied after eating all these goodies.
<<it looks like you can also get liver alone (as well as heart, kidney, and thymus). (Look under the heading "Protomorphogens" on the website. The phone no. is 206-542-9300, or you can send an email to teddy@teddysfreezer.comfor more information.>>
I give Giddy a couple products that are considered protomorphogens.
From the material that I have that explains what a protomorphogen is, those
products listed on that site are not PMGs. They could probably
be classified as organotherapy, but I think I'll e-mail that site.
I couldn't get my browser to click on and open any information pertaining
to them on that site. Protomorphogens, as explained on a sheet that I received
from my homeopathic vet (which I assumed he got from the company that manufactures
Giddy's supplement) is the "cytotrophic cellular material extracted from
the cell nucleus containing the nucleoprotein." The '"extracted"
part of this statement would lead me to believe it is not the whole organ
- in
fact, on my information sheet it states that the PMG is the cell nucleus,
not the whole gland, but it may be referring to the extract. Hmmmm
- there may be some misinformation out there -----
I also sent a note in to the list yesterday about a company that manufactures natural beef, so hope whomever is interested, saw it.
Leah
Linda,
I do rescue, so my total of cats gets up there. I currently have 13
permanent residents. If you're worried about cost, it's about the same
to feed raw as to feed canned. I make my batches 5 lbs at a time,
and buy chicken necks, when I can find them, in bulk. I'm a vegetarian,
so I buy ground meat at the grocery store (not the best, but has to be
better than the canned), so I don't have to do any butchering. The
necks aren't so bad, and I grind them in a hand grinder with a coarse blade.
I tried
giving them a vertebra at a time, but they would leave them out, and
I'd find a huge ant trail heading to it in hours. So I grind them,
and the cats will eat them that way.
They only eat a few tablespoons at a time of the raw, and I warm it with warm water so there won't be so many upset tummies.
When I switched to a raw diet, I did it all at once, because they wouldn't eat the old stuff anymore. You don't want to do this all at once. Imagine 14 cats blowing their coats all at once. It was worse than springtime. But what came in is so soft and thick. They don't shed as much, don't poop as much, the heavier ones seemed to slim down some, without adding veggies or grains. Some of the more high-strung cats have calmed down. My older cats seem healthier. It's even helped some with the abused ones I have. Nothing tames a feral like some good raw food--it's a great start with them.
I never did anything to prevent bacteria, except keeping the stuff refridgerated. All my cats are rescues, and have eaten much worse from neighborhood garbage cans, so, I figured, if they've lived on *that* without getting sick, this food has at least been taken care of.
Make the change slowly, if they'll let you, so you don't find yourself vacuuming 6 times a day. Best of luck with this.
Debbie
<Are there steps I can take with the honey to make sure it doesn't become contaminated?>
Actually the honey is already contaminated when you get it, even if it has been pasturized. There is a type of botulism that can live it it. children under 1 dont have some kind of enzyme needed to digest it. I dont know if this applies to kits or not. It doesnt seem they would get much honey in the wild.
Onilee
Hi Leah,
<< The subject of juicing/pulping vegetables when feeding them to animals comes up frequently on another list in which I participate. The reason many feel that using a juicer is the best idea is they believe that this does the best job of breaking down the "walls" of the cell membranes of the vegetables to create a more usable/digestible product. I've always just used my food processor blade and come out with an extremely fine grated product. I know some of you also primarily use grinders for most, if not all, of the food preparation. Sooo - what are the general feelings out there on this? Because of Giddy's kidney disease, I don't feed higher percentages of protein (high meaning around 75-80%), so do use more veggies than probably some do.>>
The way Dr. Billinghurst explained it at his seminar when asked why blenders and food processors weren't effective enough and that a juicer must be used, goes something like this.
He compared the pieces, although tiny, that come out of a food processor to a metal dog crate. If you look at the whole crate as a piece of vegetable, the little open rectangles all around the crate would be vegetable "cells" that had been opened by the action of the processor. But once you think about it, those surface cells would only be a small portion of all the cells that make up that chunk represented by the crate. Many more unbroken cells would be inside and not crushed.
A good juicer apparently crushes many more of the cells.
Be well, Nancy and the furkids
Hi Melissa,
Maybe Angel has an allergy to beef? Or she ate too much, its hard to digest...you know there can be lots of antibiotics used in beef. My cats and myself aren't very good with it either.
I looked on a few other sites at holistic human foods and nutrition. I really am a deep believer that not only is the raw thing okay, but is probably potentially the best diet even for people. Provided the quality is high, it is better than cooked, nutritionally. People have eaten raw stuff for millenia and are fine with it. You probably are figuing out fast that people in Japan eat lots of raw stuff. I can only assure you that if it's raw, and marked with the "nama" kanji (you might want to learn to recognize it) it's meant for human raw consumption--domestic raised chicken and beef can be purchased that way, and of course there's sashimi. Japan has an organization very similar to USDA, not that I have any illusions about their quality standards, but anyways I think it does mean that the really bad stuff is inspected out through them. The problem in Japan is getting organic, but with time you may find a store near you (where exactly are you?) Still, the best cuts and chickens raised on more quality diets and given less antibiotics and are healthier, and their eggs are packed for raw and usually more expensive (you will see some of these eggs for like 300-400 yen a piece!).
I only like raw seafood personally but I have to admit that in the over
2 years Ive lived in Japan Ive never once heard on the news or by word
of mouth of anyone getting sick from eating raw fish, meat or chicken (maybe
curry poisoned with arsenic tho!). You must follow the date on the
package for raw--EAT IT BY THEN or it must be cooked (ie its fine if cooked
and
eaten within the next couple of days is the general concensus--but
remember, buy only stuff that is intended for raw for raw, simply because
it exists I think that is a good place to start. You can also ask
your butcher.)
For fish, the stuff is caught in the deep seas and around here often its on your table within 24 hours. It's iced on the boats. I personally don't think you can find better quality.
I also believe that cats AND humas in the U.S. are pushed too heavily into the beef thing. Likewise, the fish thing is over used in Japan. Its all economics
My cat Onyx is slowly going to raw, and between you and me, I don't know where you are from but I'm from WI, and I think the produce and meat here are of higher quality than there. My cat likes fish raw, and I continue to work it in with the rotating schedule of chicken and beef, which he also likes raw, but NOT cooked anymore. And I am giving B, C, and E supps with some E, DHEA, a little pumpkin or other veggie, some spinach and some raw oatmeal mashed in.
SO, beef may be a little strong for Angel at first raw like that, give in small amounts is my novice amateur advice.
If she really liked it and gulped it down like that, I think that's
good but maybe just a little irritation to the stomach?
Judi and Onyx
Hi Buddy's Nancy, welcome to the list!
<to some organically grown chickens and would like to try the whole chicken (ground, of course) diet. Does anyone know what parts need to be removed before grinding (besides the head, feet and feathers)? Also,>>
Oho, lucky Buddy! What a goldmine <serious envy here>. When you say "whole", are the intestines included? If so, I'd remove those, the feathers and the feet ... the stones and gunk out of the gizzard ... use the organs, of course. I'd grind the head too (yum, all those brains <gg>) but remove the beak. What have I missed?
What about the crop near the gullet where the chicken has its partially digested grain? That might be good to use, doncha think? Let us know how the first dissection goes, Nancy!
Jean, the Sasket & Amber Pudgepot
<<to some organically grown chickens and would like to try the whole chicken (ground, of course) diet. Does anywone know what parts need to be removed before grinding (besides the head, feet and feathers)? Also, can anyone give me the pros and cons of lamb? I am being offerred some organic lamb as well as the chicken, but haven't the slightest clue as to whether or not it is ok for cats. Any help would be appreciated.>>
I was wondering if you are planning on feeding the feet? I can occassionally find chicken feet and my cats lovethem. They make really good snacks. The only pfoblem with lamb is that there isn't a whole lot of fat in it. So, if you were going to get that, just make sure you don't feed is exclusively. But I don't see why you can't feed it a couple times a week.
BTW, where are you located? If it's anywhere around me I would love to find out where you are getting it. I am in Kansas.
Thanks,
Niki
Hi all
<<I think someone mentioned Spirulina as being good for weight loss. Anyone have more info on this? My Cleo, altho on raw food, just keeps getting fatter. She refuses to play or exercise. >>
I wasn't able to find anything on spirulina for you, sorry, Lee. Is Cleo's thyroid okay? B/c the books I have suggest hypothyroidism as a possible cause of weight gain and inactivity.
Stein suggests, under Herbs:
<quote>
Juliette de Bairacli Levy suggests daily use of rosemary, as well as
dandelion and parsley. Chickweed, cleavers and/or pokeroot also burn fat;
changes begin slowly, then are suddenly apparent after a few weeks. Stevia,
a drop or two on food, tastes sweet and is an herbal blood-sugar balancer.
Fennel or yerba mate decrease appetite and aid digestion. Licorice root
balances blood sugar and is an herbal estrogen that may reduce obesity
in spayed females. Senna or cascara sagrada are laxatives, but aloe vera
is gentler.
<end quote>
Jean, the Sasket & Amber Pudgepot
I had a consult with my homeopathic vet the other day to talk about some nutritional aspects and to decide what direction to take next with Giddy and his CRF.
re: grains
His basic theory/concept is to do what seems best for each *individual*
animal. He mentioned if he has cancer cases or animals that are exhibiting
some scratching/itching sometimes he will advise that they eliminate grains.
Sometimes it helps, sometimes not. We discussed that in the wild,
if the animal is one that has a rumen type of digestion system, the grains
will be "cooked" within that rumen, thereby making it more readily absorbable
for the animal ingesting the grains. He emphasized that there
is benefit to including grains if the animal tolerates/does well with
them; grains provide carbohydrates, B vitamins and fiber.
re: digestive enzymes plant vs. animal
He seems to have complete faith that Prozyme is a good digestive enzyme
supplement and uses it with many of his clients. When I asked about
why some companies might choose plant vs. animal, one thing he mentioned
is that with the plant enzymes there's not the concern with the hormones,
antibiotics and whatever else might be used in that animal during the
course of it's lifetime. That may be a reason why some companies
choose one over the other. I'll be checking further into this by
giving Prozyme a call to see what type of references/resources/reasonings
they can provideto me also.
Now for my Giddy kitty --- he has not been doing as well the past couple weeks. His appetite has decreased, he has become more finicky about his food (licking it or eating small amounts and walking away), only to come back half an hour later wanting food. Those of you who have CRF cats may recognize and be familiar with this pattern. We're talking about a cat that used to not be in the least bit picky about his food, he was a breeze to transition to raw because he took to it so readily. We decided I need to have another blood panel done to see how his levels have changed and then go from there possibly switching to a different homeopathic remedy. I've not been real diligent about giving him his SP supplements either, so am hoping that has not made things worse - if so, I will feel terribly guilty. :(( I'm giving him small amounts of peppermint tea to try and help the nausea, but when he tastes that in his mouth, he tries to spit it out. Since his hair mats are so bad (long story - a combination of different things), he's going in for a grooming session either the end of this week or the first part of next week. I found a vet clinic where they don't insist on him being inundated with combo wombo vaccines in order to set foot in the door. If they want to tranquilize him to do it, I will also be out the door. He's been groomed before, so this shouldn't be a problem.
I'm considering having blood drawn on the same day he goes in to be groomed. I realize this is an additional stressor, but the poor cat gets horribly car sick and the ride to the vet (20 minutes away) is almost as bad as any stress he might have when he gets there. I discussed with my homeo vet giving him a combo homeo remedy and he said he'd prefer I didn't, but did say I could try a flower essence. That's not helped much in the past, but I might give it a shot again.
If anybody has suggestions for Giddy's appetite problems (I'm also going to try a little bit of alfalfa for a while) or altering his diet to help him eat better, please either send it to the list or to me privately. I guess I knew this day would come. He seems to be feeling pretty good otherwise - he still raced through the house today a bit. The poor guy just feels blaaaah -----
Leah Knipp
<<Is ground up chicken skin okay for cats or is it too mucn fat?>>
Sandy, are you asking about this for Puff your CRF kitty? If so, she needs fat even more than other cats. I grind the fat along w. the bones and meat for my puddytats b/c chicken fat is hi on Omega 6 (they get omega 3 from flax seed and fish oils). Plus, like Vick said, I think it is imp for energy b/c mine are on a grainless diet as well.
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats
HI Jean & all,
Recently, I came across with an article saying that cat's caloric requirement does not reduce as they age. They still have same basal metabolism as when they are young. This may have something to do with it along with their need for protein.
Yumi Guidotti
<<<Is ground up chicken skin okay for cats or is it too mucn fat?>>>
<<Probably depends on how much other fat your gals are getting.
According to the USDA database, 100g of chicken skin has:
Calories 349
Protein 13.33 g
Fat 32.35 g
Calcium 11 mg
Phos 100 mg
Potass 103 mg
Sodium 63 mg
Vit. A 262 IU
Plus lower levels of other vits and mins.
So you'd need to take the fat into consideration, I'd think. I always grind the skin up with the rest of the chicken but I take off the big chunks of fat first. :)>>
I would think that because of the cal/phos ratio you would have to add
more calcium to supplement.
Jill
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