<10 Nov 98 From Kathy A Re Organ meats>
My "crew" gets organ meats occasionally. Works out to be that whenever
i go to the store shopping to make my pet food i pick up a bit of whatever
organ meats are available at the time. The next few days they get some
organ meats- probably works out to about every 3 weeks or so.
Kathy A.
<<A good point. Not exactly a main meal salad. :)
Altho' chickens always seem to have a lot of innards. Do cats eat
innards?
Same holds true for the size of chicken heart/liver/gizzard in comparison
to the chicken. I've been following a 20% organ meat recommendation but
now I'm also wondering if that's not too high. What percentage are others
feeding?>>
Hm. I don't think I'd be comfortable giving organ meats so infrequently. The organ meats are just so full nutrients that muscle meat can't provide or provide in the same quantity. But the ideal amount? Hmmm. Still pondering.
Peggy, Hester and Elleander
Peggy
<<Just out of disgusting curiousity (from a mostly vegetarian) how much of the quail do your cats eat? Do they leave the stomach, head? Do they eat all the bones? Feet?>>
Well, unfortunately, the quail I get is already cleaned. Luckily, though, at least the place I get it at still has the feet and head attached. So, I don't know how much of the innards the cats would eat if they had them. Hester ate the teeny stomach-thing okay and Elleander, of course, ate the heart. They do eat everything. Head, feet, everything.
Peggy, Hester and Elleander
Hi all
I'm feeding the Feline Future recipe, which is 2/3 muscle, 1/3 organs (for the meat percentage, that is). No grains, some veggies. From my own disgusting curiosity, I've observed that mice, for example, have a whole lot of guts and organs packed into their teeny bodies. I'd say it's about 1/3, but that's just a casual guess. That's guts *and* organs.
Poor Annie hasn't had a mouse in over a week. The Feline Future recipe
includes glandulars, but I'm seriously considering adding extra to the
food. Does anyone know how much is too much? What the ideal is? What the
effects are of too much? How will I know? Won't supplement extra till I
do more research, but I do worry about what she may be missing. Never worried
much
about her getting what she needs, as she's always had mice to balance
it, but now that we've moved, her "supply" is gone.... Kashmir is already
heavily supplemented, but she's her own special case.
Take care all
Kathy and the cats
<<<The next few days they get some organ meats - probably works
out to about every 3 weeks or so.>>>
<<Hm. I don't think I'd be comfortable giving organ meats so
infrequently. The organ meats are just so full nutrients that muscle
meat can't provide or provide in the same quantity. But the ideal
amount? Hmmm. Still pondering.>>
I have my doubts about it being enough but i don't want to give to much either. Usually the only organ meats available are chicken or beef livers. Once in a great while i find chicken gizzards and hearts or beef heart. The cats don't get beef though as they don't like it. They get lamb, chicken or turkey. I have been considering and wondering if buying gladulars might be the best route.
Kathy
I use yogurt for the acidolphilus and have not had any problems. I just put abput 1/4 teaspoon in the food. Not sure if it works the same or not.
Kathy A.
<<I am looking for a book on a cooked natural diet. I have Frazier's book and Picairn's book. But I am looking for cat specific, holistic but not raw meat.>>
We used the Pitcairn recipe as a "starter", and struck out from there. For financial reasons (raw, boneless chicken was *TOO* expensive, so we buy whole birds) and for concerns about salmonella, we started cooking the chicken. So we wouldn't waste the nutrition value of the broth (as vegans, we have no use for it ourselves), we decided to cook the millet in the broth.
Bad idea!!!! Millet has that "puff-up" factor, and needs plain water to cook in. We'd cook that millet for hours, and it would never absorb the water, and it stayed small and kinda hard. I.e. indigestable. So we switched to barley. Cooked great in the broth, but some of the cats couldn't chew/digest it very easily. So now we sorta switch off between barley and brown rice.
We still add the eggs, the fresh veggies, and all the vitamins/minerals recommended by Pitcairn, and of course the healthy powder. Idea for cheap, ready source for fresh veggies: plant kale. It grows in cold weather, in pretty lousy soil, and it keeps coming up if you cut it.
As for the other books, we've heard the same thing as what the other
poster pointed out; they're not recommended, as they're not as well-studied
as the Pitcairn recipes.
Paul
<<ourselves and want the best for our cats. We plan to feed them "premium" cat food. >>
There are many good brands out there like Innova, Wysong, PHD, Back To Basics, Felidae, Nature's Recipe, and others i've left out inadvertently. Bottom line - look for products w/o BHA, BHT, ethoxyquin, by-products, and dyes, colors, preservatives etc. Also check w/ the co. who their meat supplier is. Ann martin who is currently n*mail has written a book, and done a lot of research on this. She found that pet food companies often will make it seem like their food does not have ethoxyquin etc. but really it was added when they got the meat so the food does indeed contain it w/o having to say so on the label. The Back To Basics webite has a good explanation of this stuff: http://www.backtobasics.com
I switched my cats from grocery store (dry) food at the breeder's to first premium dry, and then premium wet foods. Then I fed 'em cooked meat, and finally made the switch to raw meat. Raw meat seems to be working best for us, but I understand it is not for everybody. Whatever we feed 'em, if it is w/ love, that's something right there I feel..these cats are so precious and give so much of themselves, they deserve the best each of us can do/give.
<<I was wondering if anyone give supplements to their cats. >>
I add flax seed, sesame seed, and Vits A, B complex, C, and E plus cod liver oil once a week or so. Since I used to give Boo Boo herbs, I still have tons at home so I sneak it into the girls' food every now and then - things like dandelion, alfalfa, slippery elm, etc. Other than that, i feel they get what they need from the muscle meat, organs, bones, and veggies.
<< am wondering most about essential fatty acids and if this would be good to give them.>>
Cats need arachidonic acid in direct form e.g. fish body oil. Unlike humans they cannot convert linoleic acid into arachidonic acid. Help me someone; am I remembering this right? Anyway, what I am trying to say is that cats need their supplementation from animal sources so whereas a human can use the omega 3 from flax seed, there is some question as to whether our rascals can use this or not. So I use flax seeds mostly as fiber, and once in a while I squirt a fish oil (which has DHA as well as EPA that plant sources don't) capsule in their food.
There is a very nice vet on the CRF list (very knowledgeable too; she
teaches at a Univ, and does research on CRF issues) who posted that cats
actually have a hi requirement for Omega 6. As for Omega 3, she said
most of the research has been done on d*gs, not cats, so we should be careful
about supplementing w/ Omega 3. I can't find it tho I know I have
it somewhere - there was a study done on d*gs in kidney failure who were
given Omega 3. But what's tricky is that even tho dogs are carnivores,
they're not _obligate_ carnivores like cats are, so it makes extrapolating
from any studies really difficult, and that I think was
Dr. James' main point to the list.
So, to be on the safe side, u can use water-soluble vitamins to supplement, and u must use Vit A *not* beta-carotene b/c unlike humans, cats cannot convert it into Vit A. And of course, needless to say, all the protein in a cat's diet must come from animal sources. I add eggs to their food for that reason; it's a complete source of protein from an animal.
<<How about mulitvitamins, wheat grass, brewer's yeast ? >>
Frazier seems to be ok w/ yeast cuz it's in her Vita Mix but other authors seem to think that too many cats are allergic to it so advise against it. I think Yarnall discusses it in her latest book too, and sorta summarizes other authors' points-of-view on it. I skip it even tho none of mine are allergic. I figure my cats can get the B vits in yeast from liver, and other parts of the animal they eat. Wheat grass should be ok; some people use Barley Grass. Once in a while, i add chlorophyll to my cats' food too.
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who got a grinder for Xmas and can't wait to try it tonite!
<<Susan -- Thank you so much for adding your insight......I have your book on Alternative and Complementary Vet Med and I really love it.....my vet also has it and we talk about the different areas especially pertaining to my crf kitty......>>
Thanks!
<<< Basic diet? really a knotty subject, but suffice it to say that real food feeders have discovered something that the expert board certified nutritionists already know, but don't want to talk about for many reasons.>>>
<<What do you mean here? What do they already know and not talk about? Is there really some scientific proof out there that raw food is better? Have there been lab tests on feeding raw? Feeding grains? etc.........>>
This is a tough one. The nutritionists who work with pet food companies honestly believe that they are supplying the most complete nutrition in the most convenient way, and here is the kicker - because most pet owners won't do it properly on their own. They have seen (and so have I) that the large majority of normal pet owners do better when given a ready made mix, either because they won't cook, or when they do, they do it badly.
My experience has been that maybe 50% of the people I see will cook for their animals - and remember - people come to me *wanting* alternative care. The number for most veterinarians will probably be significantly lower. Of those, a certain percentage stop following the recommendations and feed a terribly balanced diet. I had one lady, anxious to cook, start out on 75% meat and the rest split between grains and veggies. She ended up feeding 100% meat because that was what the cats would eat -*regardless* of my strict instructions that she not do that.
So back to what nutritionists know or don't know. I have talked
with one DVM,PhD who works for a major premium food company - this scientist
was ctually involved in trials comparing cooked meat to raw meat in cats.
The results were that some did better on cooked and some did better on
raw. You see - they aren't assuming that real food is bad!
When asked if
anyone has compared feeding real food to commercial, the response is
that it hasn't been done. These results that we do know of are not
published in easily accessible journals, either- they may even be just
company data.
And look at the new book by Strombeck on Home Prepared Diets for Dogs and Cats - this book lambasts the pet food industry for training pet owners to rely on commercial food only. But he is only one voice, and again, the great majority of pet owners don't want to cook.
This may sound like a stream of consciousness type response, but I already said it is a knotty issue.
hi all --
<<I've been trying to help Hank the boycat fight allergies/itching. He's been eating a raw diet supplemented with vit c and fish oil for over a month now, and there's no improvement. He's licked a spot of hair off his outer thigh, and it's thinning elsewhere.>>
barb, are you feeding grains? the allergy may simply be a grain allergy... what meat are you using?
<<I'm having a problem with fasting Hank, probably since I grew up in a household where food equated love. Has anyone fasted their cats, and how did it work out?>>
i haven't ever fasted for over a day, unless the cat refuses food. but in this house, refusing food means they are pretty sick! that's just because i'm not comfortable with a cat fasting that long. i have heard opposite opinions on how long a cat can safely fast -- both from vets i consider top rate, so 24 hours is my personal level of comfort.
<< Also, if I decide to do this, Frazier recommends feeding COOKED lamb and organic chicken. Anyone know if that's necessary? Elsewhere in the book, Frazier says cats need at least 40% of their diet to be raw, and doesn't explain why she recommends cooking for the anti-allergy diet.>>
i don't think frazier is *as good* in her nutrition section as i would like. i think a healthy cat needs a bit more protein than that... here's just a personal experience take, but when skippy was puking all the time last september, i tried everything, then eliminated grains and voila! no more puking. he ate the same meat i had tried with grains, but did not puke. i used (and still use with him) ground turkey and some chicken organs and raw peas and carrots (finely whacked in a food processor). the cat has not vomited once since going grainless. he also used to pull the fur out at the base of his tail (well, stub) every few months and that has disappeared, too.
grainless worked for skippy, with no cooking or additional fasting. it's easy enuf to try, so ya may want to give that a shot before you try other stuff....
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
<<I have a 9 mo. old Persian with an ear infection. I was using a natural cleaning solution for my cats ears. This one (Jewel) had a reaction, one vet said. She lost her balance and the eye on the same side became affected. I took her to my new vet, he did see some fluid and some inflamation. We have been treating her with homeopathics. My problem is this, her opening is swollen and her inner ear is red, a lot of discharge and some pus. Some of this is new since talking with the vet on Fri. Does anyone know what we can do for her at this piont?>>
Lori, what was in the natural solution? Walk me thru this - her eye became bad after the ear cleaning solution made her lose her balance (u ean this literally, right?). How was her ear this point? Same as after the homeo remedy or better? Then u took her to a holistic vet who gave her a homeopathic remedy, and now the ear is worse? I would hesitate to recommend anything until your follow-up w/ the vet who prescribed the remedy since s/he can see her and we can't.
Do post tho when u get a chance as to exactly what her symptoms are and what the diagnosis is, and I'll do my best to help in my non-vet way:)
<<We feed a natural cat food..horomone free and antibiotic free protein.. I know raw is best, however IS raw best if you don't use horomone, antibiotic free meats?? I use dig. enzymes and other suppl. Do those of you who feed raw use "pure" meat? Which is the lesser of two evils?>>
My feeling is each of us do what we can. If u are feeding human-grade meat w/o antibiotics and hormones, u are way ahead of the game - it isn't denatured or "treated" in any way, and u can be sure of the quality of the meat and other ingredients in the mix. U can also adjust the veggie %, and if u feed grains, u can chhoose "better" grains ie. no corn like in some commercial food.
Yes, organic is the best but that isn't always an option. The only thing I always caution people about feeding a home-made diet is the Na-K, Cal-Phos, etc. balance. Those can lead to serious problems down the road, so keeping that in mind, a good commerical diet may be the way to go in some cases. JMO.
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who got 5 inches of snow today! <yippee>
<2 Feb 99 From Nancy Re Is a computer balanced diet necessary?>
Hi Emily,
Just from a common sense pov, and no scientific backing, I have to agree with you. The new raw diets like Billinghurst's (not in print yet for cats, I don't think, but he has discussed it at his seminars) that advocate giving all the necessary requirements over a week or so have really taken the pressure off people obsessing over every last detail. They also, I believe, have given our cats a better diet due to variety in feedimg. If you're going to follow the wild model, this only makes sense. We can optimize wild feeding by providing food without the long famine cycles and providing nutritious food, but I think the real benefit is, as you say, variety.
I also would be curious to know where the requirements came from that were used to come up with a balanced diet. If it was really known what kits needed, well then, I'd just mix it up and provide a week's worth of nutrients in varied levels throughout a week. Lots of C on Monday, lots of protein on Tuesday, the carbs on Wednesday, vitamin A on Thursday.....Be well, Nancy and the furkids
<<<I 'd be most curious b/c the book contains recipes for cooked cat food and curious cats want to know just how the computer "balanced" these recipes. He had to have some data as to what is optimal..wonder where that came from. >>>
<<Everyone, maybe part of the problem our cats are having is that
their diets are TOO balanced. A naturopathic practitionaer in my
area says the healthiest cats he has seen are barn cats who pretty
much fend for themeselves. He says
he feeds his cats a varied diet and lots of the same foods he eats
in addition to cat food. He says the *worst* thing you can do is feed the
cat the same thing over and over as the cat will develop food sensitivities
and allergies and lowered immune system -(which wasn't news to me
and probably isn't to most of you)>>
<<My question is can a kitty utilize protein from an egg. I noticed that Pitcairn has an eggfeast recipe, but he says that is for occasional feedings. >>
Dunno why the Pit Man sez that. Egg is absolutely great for kitties - it's a protein from an animal source. It is bio-available and completely balanced as long as u feed yolks, whites and shells together. That's what an animal would do in the wild probably. So if it is protein u want w/ lo phos, eggs sound good to me. Pit has a ton of egg in his CRF recipe; he substitutes meat w/ egg to lower protein as well.
<<the already made, defrosted batchs of food. If I only use the white, and not the yolk, I won't have to adjust the cal:phos. >>
I know some people say that feeding raw eggs causes a biotin deficiency but I don't buy that. Yolks have plenty to offset the whites, and as long as one doesn't overdo it, I don't think raw eggs are a problem. I decided Mother Nature knows best so I don't even wanna guess about Cal, Phos etc. - just toss it in the grinder along w/ the meat. If the meat is balanced w/ bones and the egg is balanced w/ the shell, then my entire recipe is balanced.
I hear ya on the too-balanced idea Emily. I try to feed a variety to these stinkers but they just really really like their organic chicken:( I can get in a diff meat once every 8-10 days or so that but that's it or they go on hunger strike.
Course I think there is a happy medium between being too sanguine about feeding a homemade diet thinking all u need to do is not feed grocery stuff stuff when really it might be improperly balanced (ever seen a cat w/ bone deficiencies from not enough Cal? - it ain't pretty), and being obsessive about things. I try to fall in the middle. Boy, these furry kids are just the light of our lives so it would tear me up if I didn't do everything just right by them.
Sandy, owned and operated by the naughty mountain cats who have mama wrapped real tight around their lil paws
Hi All, Here is an information from Vegetarian Society about cat's diet.
Cats - a Vegetarian Diet?
Although it is possible to keep dogs on a
vegetarian diet
satisfactorily, cats are more specialised
and you are advised to
consider carefully before changing your cat
to a vegetarian diet.
Cats are natural carnivores and are unlikely
to willingly forego meat
from their diet. Cats fed on vegetarian diets
are likely to look
elsewhere for their preferred meat diet, and
many cats will hunt and
kill small rodents and birds.
Cats require certain nutrients from meat that
cannot be obtained in
sufficient amounts from plant foods. These
include taurine,
arachidonic acid, vitamin A, and vitamin B12.
Taurine
Taurine is an amino acid essential for cats
but not for other
mammals. In the prolonged absence of taurine,
a cat's retina slowly
degenerates and the cat suffers eye problems
and can become
irreversibly blind. This condition is called
central retinal
degeneration (CRD). Cow's milk is a poor source
of taurine and there
is none in plant foods. The only rich source
is meat.
Arachidonic acid
Cats need a dietary source of essential fatty
acids which they can
then convert into other essential substances.
A dietary source of the
essential fatty acid, arachidonic acid, is
not needed by humans as
they can synthesise it from linoleic acid
present in vegetable fat.
However, cats lack the necessary enzymes to
synthesise arachidonic
acid and so a dietary source is essential.
Fatty tissues and milk
contain almost none and only small amounts
occur in eggs. Meat is the
only major source.
Arachidonic acid deficiency takes some time
to develop but its effect
on the cat is profound.
Vitamin A
Cats cannot utilise the provitamin A of vegetables
and therefore
require preformed vitamin A (retinol) which
occurs only in animal
foods. There are only small quantities of
vitamin A in eggs and dairy
produce. The richest source is liver.
Vitamin B12
Cats cannot synthesise their own vitamin B12
and a dietary source is
necessary. Vitamin B12 is present only in
animal products.
Niacin
Unlike other mammals, cats cannot synthesise
useful quantities of
this vitamin from protein and therefore require
a good dietary
supply. Eggs and dairy produce are very poor
sources and the niacin
in cereals is largely unavailable to cats.
A diet based on cereals,
milk and eggs will always be deficient in
niacin for cats. Meat is a
rich source.
Thiamin
Cats are very susceptible to deficiency of
this vitamin, which is
rapidly destroyed by heat. Eggs and dairy
produce are poor sources,
wholemeal cereals and pulses are fair sources,
meat is a good source.
Protein
Cats require large amounts of protein in their
diet and this can be
a problem on a vegetarian diet. Over 25% of
a cat's diet should be a
protein.
Whilst cats may enjoy certain plant foods,
vegetarian diets high in
fibre and polyunsaturated fatty acids may
be detrimental to a cat's
health. High fibre foods can fill the cat's
digestive system without
providing the necessary nutrients in sufficient
concentrations.
Excess polyunsaturated fatty acids in vegetable
oils can lead to a
vitamin E deficiency related illness.
People who feed vegetarian diet to their cats would say, they can find supplements to cover the missing nutrients. However, if certain nutrients are only obtainable from animal source, then where does these supplements are coming from? If it's not from animal source, then I bet you it's manmade. I personally don't like to use something man-made if possible. Besides, I don't have the religious belief that restrict food form animal source, and my guys love raw meat, and I have no problem feeding animal products to my cats.
-- Yumi
<<On cats eating bread: Don't cats naturally get grains from eating the viscera of mice that ate the grain in the first place? That explains the cats' alliance with humans in Egypt. >>
Presumably the mice in Egypt did have grain in their bellies. An unscientific survey of some listmembers a while ago revealed that a lot of cats we know (1st or 2nd hand) don't eat the tummies at all. So that blows the grain theory. Course it also makes one wonder how much if any, veggies a kitty needs in his/her diet.
As to the alliance w/ humans, the fact that cats don't eat grain is the very basis for the Egyptians love affair w/ kitties. Here's a neat animal that can kill the scourge of the Egyptians - mice - while not eating the grain that needs protecting. What could be a more ideal relationship.
<<Is a grainless diet better? My cat's lean, but she has big, soft tools from all the moisture and grain/vegetable>>
I fed raw a whole yr w/ about 2-5% grain in their diet before I swicthed to grainless. None of mine have allergies to grain. True they don't like the taste of grain so they are probably happier w/ their food now.
The food is denser now b/c I cut out the grain. I haven't noticed any big difference except for the fact that their poops which were tiny to begin w/, are practically miniscule now. Might be my imagination but they do look a bit more muscular.
I have read (can't remember where) and been told by vets (allo, incidentally)
that cats' poops should be small and hard(ish) - should look like lil tootsie
rolls. if the poops are real small, it means kitty is absorbing the
nutrients in the food and there is very lil
indigestible stuff that is being expelled by the body. Makes
sense to me. First thing I noticed when I switched to raw was the
poops stopped stinking..we're talking 0 smell, and the poop size went down
big time even compared to when I cooked the meat.
<<On cats eating eggshells: Don't cats naturally raid nests occasionally to eat the eggs? Wouldn't there be some nutritional value in the shells?>>
i do believe that to the case. Hence I add the entire egg to their food each time - shell and all. It's ground up into teeny pieces so they can't even tell it is in there.
<<Can someone make calcium simple? What is the right calcium supplement to a raw diet? What is so important about phosphorous? >>
At it's most basic level, calcium is good for the bones, and Phos for the muscles (potassium too). U want a balance like Judy said. If there is too much Phos (meat is very hi in Phos, esp muscle meat), then the body will start leaching calcium from the bones. hence humans who eat a lot of meat can be at risk of osteoporosis. So u want a balance like it would exist in nature.
<<Wysong puts it: "Animals survived 267 miles of history to the one inch that they have been domesticated with us." >>
Exactly. Cats are one of the only animals out there that do not adapt to their environment. Over the yrs cats have been around, their bodies have not changed one iota. Same teeth, same need for protein to come from meat sources..nothing has changed in their physiology. And we see that hunting instinct every time we bring out the Feline Flyer, right? Truly, as the saying goes - God/Higer Power created the house cat so man could caress the tiger, I believe.
<<I am new at this nutrition concern, but I am appalled at what's in commercial cat foods, and that for example, they lacked taurine for so long.>>
Interestingly, the Iams site had a blurb on it sometime back where it said that even now, people who feed commercial wet food should supplement w/ taurine. I just went to the site and can't find that article. But I know I posted about it a yr ago so will go find it in my folders if anyone is interested.
FWIW, I don't see anything wrong w/ table scraps. Dunno how they got a bad rap. When I was a kid, people's pets were fed table scraps and I didn't see them dying of kidney failure at age 4 like we do now! As long as it's just a small % of their diet and the rest is balanced, I doubt it will hurt a kitty.
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who always get bites of steak from their daddy.
Hey all --
<<Dr. Pollak spoke to this gal at a holistic conference and advised that the cat be put on a diet comprised of *90%* protein with the remainder carbs >>
<<snip>>
<<Then, a few days after this person had posted this info., another gal mentioned that she's basically feeding 90% protein to her cats with the remainder veggies and grains and that they've been doing well on this. I sent her an e-mail to find out how long kitties have been on that diet and how old they are. So, what do you think (and I *know* you will have definite opinions) <BG>.>>
I've been "talking" with a holistic vet online about my PITA, Sam and his urinary woes. We started talking diet, and she said that there would be a lot of changes in the vet community soon WRT cat diets. This may take a minute, cuz I wanna be sure my poop is all in a group here:
Personally, I've given thought to what I would do if someone here had CRF, and decided that I wouldn't do anything differently, just add some kidney supporting herbs and up their water intake. So Dr. Pollack would be music to *my* ears....
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
<<I don't understand "dry weight" percentages. How can I make it relevant and compare it to feeding raw meat?>>
Jean, what happens is that since canned food has such a hi moisture content, the % listed on the can, cannot be directly compared to the protein % listed on a bag of dry food. So to put them on a comparable basis, u have to recompute the protein % in wet food after discounting the water part of it.
So let's say a can is 80% moisture and 8% protein (as listed on the can), then it really contains 8/(100 - 80) = 8/20 = 40% protein. So wet food actually has a much higher protein % as a general rule. U can now compare this 40% # to one u'd see on a bag of dry food. I haven't fed commercial in so long I can't remember what those #s run but if I remember correctly, they are rather low - like in the 20s maybe.
Why I brought the mouse thing up to begin w/ was to try and extrapolate - i.e. if a mouse is x% dry crude protein, then depending on the moisture content of a mouse, we can figure out how much protein a just killed mouse will have. And then even if we can't feed minced mice, we can figure out what % protein our homemade food should have. Thanks to Christine, we now have this data. Thank you so much, Christine!:)
Christine wrote:
I ran into this post (don't know when the initial discussion started)
and I can provide the following info taken from a thesis by Heiner Klose,
University of Hannover (Germany). He analyzed whole rats/mice (however
without heads and intestinal tract) they used for a feeding trial.
Rats are
68.29% water
20.7% protein (or 65,26% dry matter basis)
6.71% fat (21,16)
2.89% ash (9,11)
0.066% Sodium
0.095% Potassium
0.827% Calcium
Mice
62.02% water
18.99% protein (or 50% dry matter basis)
10.46% fat (27,34)
4.29% ash (11,29)
0.09% Sodium
0.106% Potassium
1.573% Calcium
<end quote>
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats who ask if there is such a thing as a mountain mouse
As a matter of fact, rat and mouse carcass is very well "formulated"
for cats regarding protein, fat, carbohydrate, and all
other nutrients. I just happen to have the breakdown for rat right
here that was supplied by a vet:
Protein:
approx. 50% dry matter basis
Fat:
approx. 40% dry matter basis
Carbohydrate: approx. 1%
dry matter basis
Ash:
approx: 5% dry matter basis
Energy density: approx. 6.5
Kcal/gram
(the best commercial foods are about 4-5).
All vitamins and minerals are present in quantities which meet or exceed the NRC recommendations for growth in cats. Calcium and phosphorus ratio is about 1.3:1 which is dead on what it needs to be. Urine pH in cats eating rat carcass is maintained at a very good, slightly acidic level of about 6.9-7.0. In other words, this is the perfect food. A big coincidence? I think not!!!!
Kate
Hi all
<<How do I start with a raw diet. joan>>
Joan, welcome to you and your persians!
Raw or cooked diets (homemade, in other words), are the optimal feeding
as far as I'm concerned, but just because a diet is home-prepared doesn't
make it balanced, as was mentioned here a day or two ago. I think the best
thing you can do to start is read everything you can get your hands on
-- Frazier's _The New Natural Cat_, Dr. Pitcairn's _Complete Guide to Natural
Health for Dogs and Cats_; and apparently the new Strombeck book (which
I have yet to see in our bookstores and so I don't know the name) -- all
these books have good information geared towards homemade feeding. Also,
the site that Judi mentioned -- the feline future foundation -- is indeed
a great resource with a good recipe for homemade food. Barring homemade
feeding, a good preservative-free food is optimum.
A couple of things you especially want to pay attention to are the
ratio of calcium to phosphorous in the diet (I can't quote you numbers
because I always get them backwards, but someone else can, I'm sure), and
the amount of muscle meat vs. organ meats, and the amount of bonemeal (which
is crucial to the diet if you're not grinding whole birds and such).
I started off feeding Pitcairn's recipes, which are way way too high
in grains. They can be easily modified in that respect, though. Then I
discovered that the feline future foundation had simplified their recipe
and made it totally grainless, so I now use that. I've just checked recently
and they've once again modified their recipe. I'm not keen on the changes,
but the recipe is still simple, which is great for people who don't
want to spend hours making cat food, or who don't have grinders.
Very basically, a raw diet should consist of muscle meat, with approx.
5-10% organ meats, some veggies (raw or cooked as is your preference --
I use raw carrots, grated and mushed to a pulp), bonemeal, maybe an egg
or two, and supplements if you like. The supplements I use are vitamin
C, garlic, a Missing Link type powder stuff (it changes according to what
my vet has in stock, but it's usually Missing Link), salmon body oil for
fatty acids, and a little vitamin E. These are just my preferences, but
can be
modified according to your cats' health and tastes.
Again, I can't stress enough how important it is that you read everything
you can. Then you can decide for yourself which recipes or feeding plans
you want to use, and you'll have a better idea of how to monitor your cats
to see how well they do on particular recipes. I'm always on the lookout
for new ones, for variety's sake, which is why I'm anxiously awaiting the
Strombeck book I referred to earlier. But I'm happy with the feline future
recipe (the old version, which I can send you if you like), and have a
good idea of what the main components for the homemade diet should be.
It wasn't always that way, as when I first started feeding raw I was terrified
of getting something wrong. It took me six months to work up the nerve
to try it, and another few months before I felt comfortable doing it. Hopefully
it won't be that nerve-wracking for you!
Take care, Kathy and the cats
Hi all -- There was quite a bit of talk about what caused crystals, especially the struvite type. I have read that now they are saying it is only the PH of the urine and not magnesium or ash, if it is true that magnesium and phosphorus play a part, then I wanted to analysis the foods more carefully.
Cletus has completely refused both S/D and C/D in the last few days ..... Yaa, Cletus, I always knew you were a smart cat. Unfortunately he hasn't been too gung-ho on raw either :(
Any way ... Pitacairn or Fraizer or both said omit the liver. Well if you analyse liver, it has 272mg per 100mg (about 3 large chicken livers) of phosphorus. This is not a lot considering the min requirement is 400-500mg a day. Its ash is 1.17grams and magnesium 20mg. Requirement of mag a day is about 400mg.
Chicken - roasting chicken - raw has 1.07g ash; 198mg phosphorus and 23mg magnesium per 100 grams (More magnes. Less Phos than the liver and less ash too). So does more phos equate to more ash??????
Ground beef - raw - has 1.0gram ash; 130mg phosphorus and 16mg magnesium per 100g food
Beef Liver - raw has 1.34g ash; 318mg phosphorus; and 19mg magnesium per 100grams food Again more phos, less mag, more ash than chicken; (more phos means more ash?)
Since one of them recommended substituting egg yolk for the liver, I checked on it:
Egg yolk (100grams) 1.77g ash; 488mg phosphorus; and 9 mg magnesium (about 5 eggs) Here again - the most ash and the most phosphorus, but low mag???????? So ash must be more related to phosphorus than to magnesium.
So I really don't think they are using the phosphorus and magnesium in these foods to justify omiting or adding them to the diet for cats with FLUTD. I thought at first they were looking at the natural methionine in these foods (for the acifiying quallity) but that can't really be the case either, because after looking at this again (based on 100grams of any of these foods) the methoinine is chicken liver (.425g) , chicken breast (.639g) , egg yolk (.416g) , g.beef(.388g) , roasting chicken meat only (.563g) and beef liver (.506g) . The chicken liver has more than the egg! And the beef liver has more than the ground beef!
I don't know what they are going by when they recommend one food over another.....
Noreen >^,,^<
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