Following are selected posts to the Holisticat (TM) Mailing List on the subject of cardiomyopathy. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utilize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!
Happy hunting :)
Lisa M wrote:
<< My 8-year-old cat, Spanky, was recently diagnosed with hypertrophic
cardiomyopathy. The vet has prescribed a calcium channel blocker,
but I don't like giving drugs to my cats.>>
Hi Lisa,
I hate to tell ya to stop the calcium channel blocker so please take what I say as just another momcat's experience, ok? My cat developed extremely hi BP (240 vs. normal of 140) and so I had to put him on Norvasc which is a calcium channel blocker. Other than that, he is on herbs and supplements. Susan from FL has a neat way to treat her HCM cat; she adds tinctures and powder to olive oil for her cat Luigi. But I even tried calling Booey Booberto to make him try the olive oil, to no avail <g>
So, instead Booey gets the following each day: 1 Cayenne softgel (Your
Life brand), 1 CoQ10 softgel 30mg, 1 L-Carnitine
capsule 250mg, Taurine 250mg 2x a day
Since Booey gets a lot of other supplements, I don't like to overdo it so I give Vit E (alpha tocopherol) 3-4 times a week but u can give it more often along w/ Vit C (250mg a day should be ok, I'd think)
I also brew Hathorne berries, Motherwort, and Siberian Ginseng (watch the Red (Korean) ginseng cuz it is the most "stimulating"; I don't use it) for him from loose herbs. I use other herbs for the immune system and kidneys that I can post if u are interested.
My cat was about 9 when he was first diagnosed, and all the vets who see him are very surprised that he is going strong, so whatever u do, never give up hope. Susan and I have remarked on this before - so many articles on the web and in mags are so negative about HCM and the prognosis for cats w/ HCM is usually not good. But I would go by your particular cat. If he responds to natural alternatives, u can always run it by us and fine-tune things.
Purrs and headbutts to Spanky from Booey and his bratty sisters:)
--
Sandy, owned and operated by the L.A. rascals:
Greetings to the list from a newcomer! I am fostering a cat for a local no-kill cat rescue agency, and am looking for whatever help I can get to deal with his serious cardiomyopathy.
History:
Saski, timid male street cat, age approx 1-1/2 yrs., neutered end of
Jan '98. Came to me beginning of Feb from neutering vet with instructions
to feed 1/2 baby aspirin twice weekly for systolic heart murmur. Foul-smelling
stools, bad breath, trace of fresh blood in stool. Appetite voracious.
In Mar developed allergic reaction (to what? who knows), chewed at his sides till raw. New vet administered corticosteroid injection.
By April very severe allergic reaction with open wounds spotted over
1/2 his body. Cat Rescue authorized blood tests & biopsies under general
anaesthetic. Results were inconclusive but raised large red flag to vet
re: cardiomyopathy. Cat Rescue authorized canned hypoallergenic diet and
one month's supply of Fortekor 5 mg, 1/2 tablet ea day. Slight showing
of blood
in stool.
Reviewed condition in May without physical exam, continued hypoallergenic diet & Fortekor. Allergies improving. I began adding Vit A 10,000 & Vit D 400 once a week & Vit E 400 once a week to his food. Slightly more blood in stool.
Physical exam in June, vet diagnosed CM but did not do ultrasound to
confirm hypertrophic or dilated. She felt his condition is so bad that
ultrasound would be superfluous, would stress him, and would only confirm
what she knew already. She hopes she's wrong, but doesn't give him long
to live. Skin condition greatly improved, healing well; she administered
another Prednisone shot. Didn't comment on cause of blood in stool. Continued
canned H-A food & added dry as well. I bought feline enzymes, and
also started giving him slippery elm syrup for irritable bowel (prepared
using Anitra Frazier's recipe).
Late June, 1/2 tsp of grated zucchini twice a day.
Early July: vet stopped Fortekor and started 21-day course of Diltiazem.
Mid-July: Allergies gone, coat glossy, healthy, sweet-smelling. Skin
is completely healed. Breath pretty good (considering his decaying front
teeth - obviously his street diet was badly deficient). Stool well-formed,
normal smell. Blood in stool much improved, only slight occasional trace.
However, his heart condition has deteriorated terribly; energetic and playful
in
February, he now pants heavily on exertion and can't play much with
my other foster cat. I haven't noticed any particular improvement from
the medication. July has been very hot, too, so that hasn't helped.
Eventually (if I have him long enough) I'd like to get him onto a better diet, but daren't risk another allergic reaction right now.
In the meantime I'm ready to add the next supplement(s) to his diet, going very slowly, and here is where I really need help. Susan kindly told me what she did for her Luigi, and I've done some reading, and I've decided to give him Co Q10, hawthorn, Omega fatty acids and trace minerals. I'm hoping this will help boost his immune system as well as his heart. I'd love to take him to a holistic vet but because he's not my cat I don't have much say in his medical treatment -also, I couldn't afford it <g> - so I'm going to try on my own.
Here's what I have:
Susan, what size gelatin capsule did you use for Luigi?
I guess I should discontinue the Vits A, D & E? What are your thoughts on giving extra taurine on the off-chance it's dilated cardiomyopathy?
Saski is such a darling cat, with his seven front 'mitten' toes, black and white tuxedo coat, he's sweet-tempered and so smart, I'd really like to see him through this if I can.
Any comment, criticism, information, would be so welcome! And thanks for taking the time to read this - sorry it's so long.
Cheers
Jean
Hi Susan and Jean,
FWIW. The veterinary cardiologist I just saw agreed with me on giving
hawthorn and CoQ10. He was adamant about the CoQ10 being used in
the form of dark gelcaps that are stored in a dark or opaque bottle.
The powdered capsule
variety were not effective according to him.
**(Jean's note: Vet cardiologist said okay to mix hawthorn & CoQ10, hawthorn can both increase and decrease contractility of heart.)**
Be well,
Nancy and the furkids
On Wednesday, July 22, 1998 3:00 PM, susan wrote:
<<I don't know if you have powdered capsules of Co-Q-10
or liquid gelcaps, but the former are notorious for being loaded with
fillers and containing very little of the usable active substance.
>>
I don't think I can add anything to what Susan said. The hawthorn debate still rages on. Mary W-T, who is our resident mistress of herbs, says that hawthorn is just a medicinal food that strengthens the heart and she's never heard of it causing problems. However, for now, guess it wouldn't really hurt to be a little careful until we can get the full scoop.
Peggy
Hester and Elleander
If you just got here today, you missed the discussion of the past couple days on hawthorne. Dr. Susan Wynn posted advising caution in using it with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (she doesn't recommend it) because one of its properties is that it increases the strength of the heart's contractions, although I've been giving it to Luigi for over a year and a half with apparently favorable results.
If I were you, at this point I might make the hawthorn dose very conservative at this until you see how he responds. But I would go much more aggressively (like at least double or more) with the CO-Q-10, since 10mg (based roughly on the 1mg per lb. of bodyweight) is really considered a maintenance dose, rather than therapeutic. I'd also get separate supplements for each for that reason, instead of both together. I don't know if you have powdered capsules of Co-Q-10 or liquid gelcaps, but the former are notorious for being loaded with fillers and containing very little of the usable active substance.
Look into motherwort and cayenne extracts too. You might want to try OPCs (grapeseed extract) for a powerful antioxidant source. I gave that regularly to Luigi in the beginning, along with with the vitmin/mineral supplements I added to his homemade food, but only rarely does he get it anymore.
From what I've gathered around here, for the omega fatty acids, you'd be better off with an animal source (fish oil) than vegetable (flax), as carnivores absorb things best from meat and it is questionable whether vegetable sources will even be utilized.
I don't use gelatin capsules. I use mainly liquid extracts of everything, except solid extract (syrupy actually) for the hawthorn. The CO-Q-10 I get is pure crystalline powder and dissolves in the cold pressed extra virgin olive oil which I use as a base and mix everything else into (it has to be shaken well before giving). I am fortunate in that Luigi will eagerly take it all right from a spoon, even though the cayenne makes it taste really hot and spicy!
I don't think extra amino acids like taurine or l-carnitine could hurt. Maybe someone else knows more about this. I gave Luigi both with his homemade food (based on lightly cooked meat - that he now gets only rarely).
I hope you can get Saski through this - and I still hope there's some way you could adopt him permanently! I forget - did you say whether you have other cats of your own, or just fosters?
Welcome to the list!
-- Susan S.
Hi Jean,
I too have a cat w/ HCM. He is now about 10 yrs old, and when
he was diagnosed, his prognosis was very poor (2-3 weeks). We're
now going on 17 months. My kitty has renal failure too and possible
cancer (found a polyp in his mouth) so the prognosis for Saski and other
kitties should be way better. Keep your chin up, and know we are
all here for you and Saski:) A belated welcome to the list too for
you and Saski.
I give Booey L-Carnitine (250Mg) and CoQ10 in softgel form (30mg) together every morn. In addition, I would recommend Taurine even tho I know Saski has Hypertrophic CM and not Dilated CM. I give Boo 250mg twice a day. I'm told Taurine is good for the kidneys but I have no idea why that is the case. In any case, I ain't taking any chances so I give it to him.
In addition, Boo gets Hawthorne Berries in his herb mix. A herbalist on the homeopathy list told me that hawthorne should be avoided w/ other heart drugs b/c it has cumerin (sp?) or something like that. Sorry, dunno the technical word. I will have to ask her about Norvasc b/c my cat is on that for his hi BP. That is the only drug he is on but I worry if the Hawthorne should be avoided b/c of the Norvasc.
Susan, since Luigi is not on allo meds, u have nothing to worry about according to my herbalist source.
But of course, standard disclaimers apply - I'm not a vet, etc.
YMMV.
Sandy
Her younger brother has both CRF and hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM) so I can't give subqs either (no big loss as far as I am concerned). I know how you must feel - despair, guilt, hopelessness..a long list:(( But really, there *is* hope. I'm not just saying it to make you feel better. My cat Booey was given 2-3 weeks to live, and we're at almost 16 months. We've had our share of ups and downs but Booey and I keep chugging along like the little engine that could.
What are your cat's BUN, Creatinine, Phos, Sodium, PCV, etc. values?
In case you haven't been to this site, check
it out - http://www.best.com/~lynxpt
There is a section there on blood tests, and what some of the kidney-related components mean. There is also a mailing list for CRF kitty parents. Info for subbing is at that website.
At any rate, I'm not obsessed w/ the blood #s other than to figure out
if Booey is anemic and/or needs more potassium
supplementation. Each cat is so diff that only u know what will
work for you and your kitty. Keep your chin up, and feel free to
write me privately if you need a shoulder to cry on. Sadly, been
there, done that, twice. Hopefully I've paid my dues to Bastet by
now.
Here's what I give my cat. I am not a vet or a herbalist so take it for what it is worth, ok? BTW, I use loose dried herbs but u can use tinctures (diluted 2 water:1 herbal tincture). Here's the website (really cool site) I used to learn how to brew and administer herbs: http://www.acupuncture.com
Booey's regimen: (he is a 6.5 - 7 lbs black Persian)
Morning:
For the heart:
I use a pill gun that holds about 4-5 pills. I use only human-grade supplements. We give like 2 pills and then squirt some liquid, then more pills, more herbal liquid. He is just a little doll and very easy to pill. His Himmie sister was another story so I hope yours is like Booey. Otherwise if your Himmie is eating, mixing stuff in food is best. No way I could have done any of this stuff w/ Tasha.
I have been force feeding Booey raw food (regular protein, not lowered) mixed up in a blender. I add some digestive enzymes, acidophilus, and apple cider vinegar to his food.
Whew! I hope I didn't inundate you. I have other info on CRF and am constantly updating my files so lemme know. I'm here for you, and will help in any way I know how.
Take care Susan, and hugs to your Himmie baby from my Persians:) Special hugs for all CRF cats from me; they are just too precious for words.
Sandy
Jean-
I highly recommend calling Dr. Wim Jansen's office. He was originally
from Holland but has been practice naturopathically for 18 years in this
country and is very familair with naturopathy, herbs, homeopathics, and
how allopathics interact and has fine tuned muscle response testing.
His office in Massachusetts at the Tree of Life Center is 508-336-4242.
He is my doctor but also works with animals. If you speak to his wife Jane
or Peter Morrell there who are also very knowledgable, they can help.
I called their radio show recently about Boo and they were willing to
look at Boo's records and make recommendations. I know in their experience
they recommend that CoQ-10 be taken on an empty stomach because it works
much better that way
they say (although the mfger suggests otherwise). I just want people
to know that rather than hit or miss, you might save a lot of time and
money by giving them a call. It is an option that is available - and highly
recommended for sick kitties (and people - hopefully before they get too
sick).
Emily H
FWIW, my vet has my kitty on 30mg of CoQ10 daily.
Randall & Tails
<<He's on 15mg CoQ10 at the moment in addition to the Diltiazem.
That prescription runs out next week and I'm hoping the Cat Rescue
people will have him examined, I'll be pushing to stop the
Diltiazem and up the CoQ10 to 30mg. I recall Susan S. mentioned that
as being a therapeutic dosage? The vet isn't holistic and I don't
even know if she'll have heard of CoQ10... I'd like to get some 'authoritative'
information (meaning an article by someone with D.V.M. after his/her
name <g>) to show her about CoQ10 as it relates to cats and dosages.
Does anyone know of anything? I've checked the Net and found lots
of info about CoQ10 but nothing relating specifically to cats.
--Jean>>
wordlady@ wrote:
<<I'm still iffy about the amount of CoQ10 - I upped it from 15mg daily to 30mg, he's had 2 days on 30mg, and I noticed heavier panting yesterday and right after he got it today, even though he wasn't moving around, so I think I'll cut it back to 15mg again, take it really slowly with him.>>
Hi everyone,
Jean, CoEnzyme Q-10 is good stuff! I have to wonder *why* Saski
is having a negative reaction to it. Do you pill him, or mix it with
foodies? Are you giving the powdered version or gel? Does the
brand that you bought have fillers, or artificial ingredients in it--something
that might be causing a negative reaction?
Sammy weighs 8.5 pounds, but even when he weighed 6, I gave him 30mgs--but he never panted or had a negative reaction.
Hi all
Just came back from the Cat Rescue vet, assessing Saski's condition after 21 days on Diltiazem ... and on my non-allopathic supplements.
Basically the vet insisted that Saski continue with the Diltiazem. She and the Cat Rescue person were *very* impressed with how good he looks, glossy coat, lots of energy, lots of purrs, which was great to hear! She hadn't heard of CoQ10 - "You're talking to an allopathic vet here; you're giving him these homeopathic (sic) supplements and I just don't know anything about them so I can't advise you" - anyway, I had 20 pages of references on CoQ10 I'd printed off the Net :-) she was open enough to have me leave them with her to read. She said if she could find something that would help with cardiomyopathy she'd be just delighted, so perhaps it will help persuade her! Sure hope so.
She says she can't see any improvement in his heart (which I didn't really expect, I think it's far too early for that) - I asked if it was any worse and she apologetically said that his heart is so bad that it really can't get any worse. She thinks it's a wonder he's still alive.
So, guys, you're my main resource here, and thank goodness for you all! No guidance from the vet on non-allopathic stuff.
I'm going to continue with what I'm doing, the CoQ10, the trace minerals (1 drop a day), the Vit A, D & E once a week (10,000, 400 & 400 respectively), the digestive enzymes.
I'm still iffy about the amount of CoQ10 - I upped it from 15mg daily to 30mg, he's had 2 days on 30mg, and I noticed heavier panting yesterday and right after he got it today, even though he wasn't moving around, so I think I'll cut it back to 15mg again, take it really slowly with him.
And I've started weaning him off the hypoallergenic food onto Iams canned as a first step - after that we'll start going raw!
Comments, anyone? And thanks *so* much again for all your support.
-- Jean
Saski the Purrboy and Amber
Hey Jean, everyone-
Great news on Saski's remaining stable, and beating the odds! It sounds like you are just what this brave kitty needed :)
<<I'm going to continue with what I'm doing, the CoQ10, the trace minerals (1 drop a day), the Vit A, D & E once a week (10,000, 400 & 400 respectively), the digestive enzymes.>>
Sounds good to me. I have a cat w/ a heart murmur, but no ultrasound was done. Since he's at least *part* Maine Coon, I'm sorta assuming it's early HCM and treating empirically. I give Max 1/2 a human heart med combo every other day that contains Ca, Mg, K, Vit E, Ph, B-6, B-1, Niacin, Vit D, and Chromium, in addition to Hawthorne, L-Taurine, Ginger Root, Cayenne, Ilex (not sure, but I know that's the genus for Holly...), Proline, and Co-Q-10.
The only thing I might add to your regimen is Taurine. Since it strengthens heart muscle and is an essential amino for cats, adding a little extra to his diet shouldn't hurt.
<< I'm still iffy about the amount of CoQ10 - I upped it from 15mg daily to 30mg, he's had 2 days on 30mg, and I noticed heavier panting yesterday and right after he got it today, even though he wasn't moving around, so I think I'll cut it back to 15mg again, take it really slowly with him.>>
I'm not real familiar w/ the exact results of Co-Q-10, other than it 'helps the heart'. Someone else should have a bit more input :)
<<And I've started weaning him off the hypoallergenic food onto Iams canned as a first step - after that we'll start going raw!>>
One thing I would also do is consider using beef heart as his muscle meat, especially if you can get organic. At least, I would give extra chicken/turkey hearts. I know that Pitcairn considers beef heart a fattier grade muscle meat, but wonder now if the fat might be contraindicated....
Peggy, you're the organ queen, whaddaya think?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad)Max, and Jezebel
Vick,
My cat is part maine coon. What is HCM. When I took Griffin
, as a kitten, to the vet he said he thought he heard a faint heart murmur
but no vet has mentioned anything since. I'm worried now that
I should take him to have him checked for this so I know if I should be
using coQ10 and other things to keep him in good shape.
Terri
<<Sounds good to me. I have a cat w/ a heart murmur, but no ultrasound was done. Since he's at least *part* Maine Coon, I'm sorta assuming it's early HCM and treating empirically. I give Max 1/2 a human heart med combo every other day that contains Ca, Mg, K, Vit E, Ph, B-6, B-1, Niacin, Vit D, and Chromium, in addition to Hawthorne, L-Taurine, Ginger Root, Cayenne, Ilex (not sure, but I know that's the genus for Holly...), Proline, and Co-Q-10.>>
Nancy and everyone,
I too have a real tough time w/ this. Like recently, Booey developed a "cardiac cough" due to the Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy. All I could figure out was that he has fluid in his lungs, and from that an oppressive, congested feeling but how in the heck do I figure out if one of the keynote symptoms of Cactus Grandifolorus - constriction around the heart or feels like a vice around the heart is what he is feeling.
I'm really frustrated b/c I spent hrs looking through all my Repertories. There's tons of rubrics to do w/ the heart but they're internal symptoms that I can't see:( I'm having a hard time narrowing down the remedies. Plus as his disease progresses, the symptoms change faster than I can find anything to help him; I feel so helpless!
Sandy
Hi all
Sandy, here's what my Macleod says: p. 82 under pulmonary oedema: An abnormal accumulation of fluid in the lungs is usually a sequal to chronic heart disease. There is great difficulty in breathing and a moist cough is fairly constant. The cat may be seen in sternal recumbancy (?) with its head extended in order to obtain ease of breathing.
<<I am new to the list! My 4 year old cat Norman was diagnosed with cardiomyopathy last spring. It was detected at a regular check up at>>
Hi Tami, and welcome to the list!:) What type of cardio does your kitty have? Mine has hypertrophic, where the heart walls are thickened.
<<He is still symptom free at this time but I am looking for info on how>>
That's just great news! 3 cheers for your vet to find the problem cuz detected early there is a lot u can do to keep his heart healthy.
<<keep him as healthy as possible for as long as possible. I am feeding Innova, because I was worried about preservatives, and other chemicals in his food, also I like it because of the fact it is made with all human grade ingredients. Any input on this food?>>
Innova is one of the best commercial dry and wet food out there. Wysong is good too (my cats can't stand it).
<<where when they first detected it was a 2. Is there any way his condition getting worse would make the murmur sound lower? Or is this a good thing? I am taking him in soon to be tested again to see how things are.>>
What was it an allergic reaction to? I guess a vet would be able to answer this; I don't have a clue as to why the murmur would be better if he is feeling worse <scratching head>
My cat's murmur is about a 5 out of 6. At any rate, he is doing well w/ the following as well as other supplements he gets for his kidneys (he has kidney failure). Check out the following herbs and supplements for Norman, and purrs for him from my gang for many happy healthy yrs w/ you and your kitty family.
Boo's heart stuff:
If u like, u can also give him Ginkgo, garlic, cayenne, fish oil, Vit E, C, and B complex like maybe one of these a day so that he gets one a week. I do that for Booey cuz he's on a lot of supplements and herbs. As far as I know, none of this stuff will harm a kitty who is asymptomatic.
Sandy, owned and operated by the CA mountain cats wishing for some of
Kathy's snow
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