Following are selected posts to Holisticat on the subject of Urinary tract problems. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utlize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

(Kathy, thanks for forwarding my original query!)

Okay, now that I've gotten some sleep and can concentrate, I am ready to deal w/ Sam's latest problem.... I swear, I feel like such an ogre for being mad at him for peeing on my stuff these last few days!!

Anyhow, this whole struvite crystal thing is much easier to deal w/ than an attitude problem. The tech who read his urine slide told me there were LOTS of crystals, so obviously, this is not a sudden thing, but has been going on for a little while :( Poor Sam!

He has been eating Sensible Choice dry, mixed w/ Petgaurd, Nutro Natural or Nature's Recipe canned for awhile, and before that spent some time eating Purina Pro-Plan dry- and now I feel like and even worse mommy...sniff!

So, I read Diane Stein, and since she paraphrases Frazier and Pitcairn, I feel as if I've read them, too. So this a.m. Sam got 250mg of Vit C, 400IU Vit E and a cod liver oil capsule. He wasn't too thrilled w/ ground chicken and baby food squash, so he also ate some Nutro canned. No more dry food for him!! I think I'll be buying him some chicken necks and feeding one a day + ground chicken and veggie mixture. I will give 500mg/day Vit C and 1 capsule each of Vit E and cod liver oil, as per Stein's (Frazier's!) recommendations.

They all recommend digestive enzymes- any thoughts as to why? Sam's urine pH was 7.5, about 1.0 above what it should be, so acidification is obviously needed. Would ya'll go higher than 500mg of C a day? And do you think that the vitamins plus a raw diet will do the trick? I'll get a couple cans of s/d today, to help cross him over to the ground chicken mix, and to appease Dr B and the other docs/techs. It will come as no surprise to them that I'll be looking for a natural treatment :) The other Dr is the one who saw Sam's urine/crystals, and she wants to do an xray soon just to make sure that's all we're up against. I really hope I'm still getting stuff at cost!!

I'm rushed today, playing the social butterfly w/ Dave's coworkers, yay :| ! I'm not a social person!! Anyhow, I wanted ya'll to know I'm sorry I haven't been around much and that I hope your babies are all doing well, especially the sick ones. Judy, please give the boyz a hug from me, I'm so sorry the blood work wasn't better, but it could have been a lot worse, too!!

BTW, I kicked butt on my field final, and locked down a B+ in the hardest course of my college career. Calculus was easier than
Dendrology was!

Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad)Max, and Jezebel

Spring & Minky showed up with struvite crystals last year when I did their first *senior* bloodwork panels.  I followed Pitcairn and Stein's books.  Switched them to Pitcairns kitty recipes, no more dry, using oatmeal as it is an acidic grain.  Only TWO meals a day, no free feeding.  250 mg Vit C twice daily for 30 days.  Cod liver oil and Vit E were in the food mix. All the urinalysis were clear in 45 days.  I would hold off on x-rays if Sam is urinating freely, just watch him closely. Dr Zook had said Vit B6 was a <miracle> vitamin for kidneys so it might not hurt to use a B vitamin complex <12.5 mg twice daily> as a precaution in case  there is any stress on the kidneys.  I used this regime on my big male shepherd a year earlier and adapted to the kitties.  All are clear now with no relapses.

I wouldn't go any higher with the Vit C for now.  DO you have pH strips?  You can get them from WYsong or Whiskers in NYC.  Vitamins and raw diet should do it.  S/D is very high in sodium to help dissolve any possible stones <the Vit C will do that too> so you can actually see an increase in crystals for awhile in a urinalysis.  Not sure what the side effects of such a high sodium content is overall.

Let me know you need more info or how to catch a kitty urine sample to save Sam a trip to the vet's!

TJ

<<250 mg Vit C twice daily for 30 days.  Cod liver oil and Vit E were in the food mix. All the urinalysis were clear in 45 days.  I would hold off on x-rays if Sam is urinating freely, just watch him closely. Dr Zook had said Vit B6 was a <miracle> vitamin for kidneys so it might not hurt to use a B vitamin complex <12.5 mg twice daily> as a precaution in case there is any stress on the kidneys.  I used this regime on my big male shepherd a year earlier and adapted to the kitties.  All are clear now with no relapses.
I wouldn't go any higher with the Vit C for now.>>

Having nurtured a cat from the brink of death through FUS, I think there are some positive aspects to giving high dosages of Vit. C.  Why would you not recommend going higher, TJ?  What would be some of the reasons for concern with this?   When my cat first came home and I called a holistic vet, he recommended from 1-3 *grams* of Vit. C; in other words to bowel tolerance.  I went up to 2 grams gradually and came down gradually.  If anything, I think it helped prevent further crystals from forming.   This same vet also recommended rather high levels of Vits. A, D & E for a  *short* period of time - two weeks, then gradually  backing down again to a maintenance dosage.  Vit.A does a good job of helping the body heal and detoxify; Vit. E helps heal damaged tissue and reduces/prevents scarring. With the vitamin E, it's important to use the alpha tocopherol, not mixed
tocopherols; mixed tocopherols are a synthetic form.  Since these are oil soluble, rather than water soluble, you don't want to keep a kitty on a high dosage for long periods.

My kitty also never had a relapse since that rather serious scare three years ago.

Leah

Hi all
Vick, congratulations on your exam results! Great news! I hope you celebrated accordingly. About Sam's crystals, you may want to investigate the homeopathic thlaspi bursa. Allport says it will dissolve crystals. Stein mentions it too along with other remedies, I can list those if you like, but I think you have Stein's book, right? I don't think it's such a bad idea to give Sam the vit C he can tolerate, as long as you increase slowly and decrease slowly. I hope he's feeling a little better by now. Vick, what kind of litter do you use?

Debbie, about Boom's breathing, Kashmir gets that scared at the vets too. I limit her vet trips to the absolutely necessary.

Do you have or have access to a diffuser? Actually, even a hot steamy bathroom will do, fill a bathtub with steamy water and put some eucalyptus in it. Allport recommends ginger in her food, but I just read about a suggestion to add it to a steamy bath too. I think ginger in her food might turn her off. You could even add the ginger to some water and heat it on the stove. Anything to get the smell going, to help her airways clear.

I wonder ... how would she be with a spicy chicken soup? (Spicier than your average, I mean.) My brother-in-law makes a cold remedy he calls chicken frico -- chicken broth, potatoes and as much spice as the person (kitty) can stand. My guess would be to start off bland and add a tiny bit of cayenne, if she'll drink it. Increase if you can. (Best not to add it to the whole batch in case she won't eat it.) I'll do some more thinking and see what else I can come up with.

Take care all
Kathy and the cats

<< And would ya'll go  higher than 1000mg's of C? He had 500mg this a.m., and hasn't had  diarrhea. >>

I wouldn't go much higher than 1000 mgs for a kitty since 10,000 mgs or bowel tolerance is the highest for humans. I think what you are doing sounds fine. My Rudy did well on about what you are giving Sam.  Was Sam cathetarized to open a blockage or was he just spraying?

Emily

<< Well, Sam's blood work all came back normal, so the crystals seem to be the only physical problem. His liver values remain in normal ranges :)>>

GREAT news.

<< Logically, I would think that just raw meat would be most acidic, but do I add bonemeal back in or just let him eat meat for a  couple days and then put supp's and veggies back? And would ya'll go  higher than 1000mg's of C? He had 500mg this a.m., and hasn't had diarrhea.>>

Oats is so good for tummy probs. A friend used to mix the meats with cooked oats - worked real well. 1000mg's is way too high. It won't be absorbed but will merely pass through the system. 500 per day is more than enough.

<<ALSO, Dr B feels that the inappropriate urination has gone on long  enough that eliminating the crystals will not eliminate the spraying.  She had me start him on 2.5 mg of amytriptiline daily. It IS  metabolized in the liver, but she feels at such a low dose it
shouldn't be a problem. I'll check his liver values every two weeks,  but know I'm playing w/ fire here.....>>

Amytriptiline has never given me problems and I've had cats who tend to get FUS on it for years. On one hand I agree with Dr. B that it may not eliminate spraying as this seems to have become a habit - BUT - crystals pass thru in minute particles and cause an irritation (Homeo - Staphisagria works on this) and that in itself would make him spray so you may well have hit the button.  Hope so.

Barbara

<<So, I've been feeding him canned s/d for the past couple days, and gradually have increased his Vit C to 1 gram (today's dose) and have been giving 1 cod liver oil capsule a day. I gave the 400IU Vit E capsule 3 days ago, and will probably give him another today. Anyone have any feelings one way or the other about the levels I'm giving him?  And would ya'll go higher than 1000mg's of C? He had 500mg this a.m., and hasn't had diarrhea.>>

I can tell from scanning the posts, that without specifically saying so, people think I am absolutely wacko in my recommendations on higher levels of Vit. C!  I guess the bottom line is keep it at the level that you *personally* feel is safe and effective.  I have given high levels to myself, my dog and my cat when we have been ill and I personally think the body can tolerate higher levels when it is ill; I have the anecdotal evidence to prove it.  I checked on Giddy's old records and noticed that about the highest level I had him on was around 2,000 mgs. for a short period and backed down to a maintenance dose of around 500 for a period of time.  I was using the ascorbic acid form of Vit. C which, as Barbara mentioned, gets excreted out in the urine if not needed. They also can sometimes detect it in the food because of it's acidic nature.  When this happens I switched to a more powerful smelling food or I switched to a  tablet form and crumbled it in the food.  I really believe different
animals/people can tolerate different levels of it.  It works best when given with Vit. E as you are doing.  Another effective form of Vit. C is Ester C according to Dr. Balch & Phyllis (his wife, a C.N.C.; A-Z Guide to Supplements), it enters the bloodstream and tissues four times faster and stays in the body tissues longer.  I've never used that form, but if I did, I would probably only go with 250-500 mg. for a kitty.

As for the Vit. E, it appears that Giddy was getting at least 200 Vit. E every day for a period of about a week or two.  I gradually moved up to that amount and I gradually moved back down and off.  I'm sure many of you are amazed that my cat is alive today!  Vit. E is not water soluble so animals/people should not be kept on higher doses for a very long period of time.  As I said before though, in addition to being a good antioxidant, it is great for promoting healing and reducing scarring.

Hey Leah, list-

<<I can tell from scanning the posts, that without specifically saying  so, people think I am absolutely wacko in my  recommendations on higher  levels of Vit. C!  I guess the bottom line is keep it at the level  that you  *personally* feel is safe and effective.>>

Leah, I thought you were wacko long before the whole Vit C thing ;-)

Anyhow, I feel okay w/ 1000mg for Sam for a couple days. As we all know, excess Vit C is just peed out. He has peed in larger ammts lately, instead of the small quantities he had been going. I think he feels better now, and will gradually get him down to probably 250 mg a day, just to keep the acidity around. I take between 1-2000 mg when I feel a bladder infection coming on, and that's just bacteria, not crystals that need dissolving.

<<As for the Vit. E, it appears that Giddy was getting at least 200 Vit.  E every day for a period of about a week or two.  I gradually moved up  to that amount and I gradually moved back down and off.  I'm sure many  of you are amazed that my cat is alive today!>>

I feel okay with a cod liver oil capsule daily, but am keeping the Vitamin E at 400IU's every 3 days. He's not eating anything fatty right now, and is actually hunger striking today. I think he realized he was eating SD!! The same thing happened after the liver crisis. He ate the SD food for a couple days, then stopped. I trusted him then to know what was good for him, so I'll probably just trust him again. Besides, with the Vit C he's on, he should be okay w/ pretty much any canned food.

Ya know, I gave him a plate w/ a tiny bit of baby food veggies and a little ground turkey, each in separate piles. The darn cat ate the veggies and wouldn't touch the turkey!! Looks like he prefers the meat in bulk form.

Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad)Max, and Jezebel

<<I can tell from scanning the posts, that without specifically saying so,  people think I am absolutely wacko in my recommendations on higher levels  of Vit. C!
I have given high levels to myself, my dog and my cat when we have been ill and I personally think the body can tolerate higher levels when it is ill; I have the anecdotal  evidence to prove it.>>

Leah,

I think what happens is that Vit C increases absorbtion whether it be from our own immune systems or an outside drug/remedy, therefore a higher dose would appear to be more effective. The studies (not as vast as I would have liked) showed that only so much could be absorbed and the rest would be excreted as you said. I must admit when I'm going down with anything I increase my Vit C so ' so much for practising what I preach' VBG. It is though provoking though.

<< I'm sure many of you  are amazed that my cat is alive today!>>

You've done an absolutely amazing job there but TLC also plays a major part and positive thinking!

<< Vit. E is not water soluble so animals/people should not be kept on higher doses for a very long period of  time.  As I said before though, in addition to being a good antioxidant, it  is great for promoting healing and reducing scarring.>>

I second that advice

Barbara

<<You guys, I'm getting confused.  I know you are talking specifically about your cats with struvite crystals and crf, but is there a
resource that can help me figure out how much of these various things to give the healthy cats and how often?>>

Lee, are you doing homemade or are you feeding commercial? Theoretically, a good commercial diet would have all the stuff and you wouldn't need to add the vits back. I think the big reason for adding E to homemade is that freezing destroys vit E.

Me, I just watch Skippy's coat. If it starts to look dry and he starts overgrooming, he needs his Vits A, D, and E, and the other 3 get them for good measure.

<<I have Frazier, and she says to give the E and A I think once or twice a week, but not necessary why and what each does.>>

It's E and Cod liver oil (has A and D), I'm pretty sure. Even w/ a commercial doiet, I would think that 1 400IU capsule of Vit E and 1 capsule of cod liver oil a week would be fine. As far as Vit C, since it's water soluble, I will be giving each cat at least  250 mgs/day from now on, just to help ensure acidic urine. I think it's very difficult to OD Vit C, and will keep Sam on 500mgs/day for quite some time, especially now that he's back on regular food!!

Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad)Max, and Jezebel

Thanks, Kathy.  I will definitely look into your recommendations as well as stop the free-feeding which Emily recommended to me. He gets a diet based on a recipe my holistic vet gave me:
1/2 c raw meat
1/2 Tbsp bonemeal
1/2 c oatmeal
1/2 t kelp
1/2 t digestive enzymes
1/2 t glandular and organ concentrate
1/2 c veggie
1/2 t bee pollen or other "superfood
1/2 flax seed oil.  (I think that's the whole recipe).

What does seem to be missing here is Vitamin C--should it be added?? My holistic vet (spoke with him today) also seems to think that a lot of the problem is emotional and not totally dietary--so we'll have to work with that too.  And I imagine flower essences.  Thanks a bunch!

<<Kristine, I don't think he needs a *special* diet, per se, but are you following a recipe? What kinds of supplements does he get normally?   A couple of things to look into: thlaspi bursa, homeopathic, is supposed  to be indicated for dissolving crystals (if all the other symptoms fit). Richard Allport also recommends the herb gravel root (I've never seen it tho and can't tell you much about it), Nat Sulph (tissue salt), and the flower essence crabapple.
As for his diet, I think the whole point is to increase the acidity, right? I suspect that it may need some tweaking. Do you feed grains? What are your proportions (diet, not you :)  Sorry if you've answered all these questions already, I'm a little way behind...  I hope you and your kitty are okay. Hugs to you both.
Take care all
Kathy and the cats>>

Kristine

I will usually give him CranActin at the first sign of a problem--but unfortunately I was out of town when it started to flare and came back when he was blocked! :-(  Would you give it to the cat on a regular basis?

<<Kristine and Vick,
Do yall give your respective boy cats cranberry in any form?  Doubt it would hurt to give some unsweetened cranberry juice or a capsule or two to help prevent a UTI.
I have a colleague (totally non-holistic; he drives me nuts  w/ his cavalier attitude!) whose cat gets blocked routinely Anyway, his poor kitty frequently develops a UTI as a result of the blockage.  Don't mean to scare yall but just something to try as a preventive.
Purrs and headbutts to all kitties from my rascals.
Sandy>>

Kristine

Leah Knipp wrote:
<<So uva ursi is not good for kitties?  It's in Cran Relief, which you  indicated you knew some people made into a tea for kitties with urinary or  kidney stone problems.>>

Leah, I've read that Uva Ursi a.k.a Bearberry is great for short-term use.  And it is ok for normal cats/people but not those w/ compromised kidneys.  Since Ambrose has CRF, I told Pam to not use it at all.  I have used Uva Ursi w/ great success in the past for young boys w/ UTIs and/or blockages but discontinued use after about 5 days or so.

<<of using herbs for pets, although I still have trouble understanding how  they can look at several locks of hair and determine a precise formula ??????>>

Me too; I have trouble believing they can get much out of it, personally.  But I know people who swear by this stuff so who knows..

Sandy, owned and operated by the L.A. rascals

<<I have a cat - a 5 yr old male stray - I've had for about 3 years now and he has very frequent bladder infections.
<SNIP>
Does anybody else have this  problem with their cat and/or any suggestions?>>

Have you tried cranberry capsules and vitamin C?

I would think that maintenance dosing of one or, preferably, both, would help your boy. If you can give him pills, you might want to start him on 250-500mgs of vit C a day, and look at the various cranberry capsules and stuff and see about getting him on one of those a day. I haven't used cranberry in a maintenance capacity, so I'm at a loss for dosing there, but I'm sure someone here can suggest an amount....

Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad) Max and Jezebel

<<On Monday, Hobbes was just diagnosed with a Urinary tract blockage.>>

Here's something I saved that someone wrote a long time ago. There's also a tonic available from Animal's Apawthecary called Tinkle Tonic that contains much of the same ingredients. Also, a raw food diet is not a total guarantee that he won't get blocked, but it definitely is the first line of defense and the most obvious thing. If FLUTD is your main problem, then I would also definitely go grainless.

"Raw foods with the elimination (sometimes) of yeast products will prevent the condition from recurring -in my experience. I  can't stress how easy this prevention is especially compaired to the worry,  suffering and cost re-infections produce.

On the other hand -if a cat has an infection already, I have found that a tincture of goldenseal, couchgrass and sarsaparilla (not sure I spelled this one correctly) with the addition of vitamin C will clear  infections  noticably in 3 days and provide relief swiftly. Of  course treatment must  last longer (about 7-10 days), but I can depend on this method for such  cases. Herbs are excellent treatments for such problems and the glycerine  tinctures are well accepted. A raw meat diet during and after will prevent  further problems."

<<I've tried raw chicken, and half of the feline kids not so politely  told me  what I could do with that chicken>>

All the methods that Vick talked about are the most common methods. Remember that it sometimes takes a lot of patience.to switch a cat to any type of new food, not just raw. I once wrote a rather, um, heated post on the subject and it's posted on the Wellpet site. It might be helpful. http://www.ListService.net/wellpet/catsraw.htm

You can try one of 4 methods. Make a homemade diet and cook it. Then, verrrry slowly, decrease the cooking time over a period of 1-2 weeks (depending on how receptive your cats seem to be). Or try adding raw  food to their existing diet a teensy bit at a time, increasingly the percentage of raw as you go along. Or, make raw food but add something tasty to it, such as baby food or clam juice, and slowly decrease the amount of the flavoring. Or make raw food and fast the critters for a
day or so before feeding them (assuming all of your cats are healthy and not overweight).

I agree about the beef. However, the cats probably like it because it has such a strong taste. Chicken and turkey, as we know, as very bland in comparison. Game birds are tastier, or you can try lamb. However, if  beef it must be, start with beef, then slowly mix in other things. Still, as far as I'm concerned, a lifetime of raw beef meals still has to be better than a lifetime of commercial food.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

Since you feed him canned food you may be able to add Vit C powder and some cranberry extract to that. I used to dissolve Vit C and cranberry capsules in water, add a little raw honey, and put a teaspoon or so in everyone's food. Now I just give pills. Thankfully, my cats are all pretty easy to pill, so it's no problem for me to drop a pill in their mouth.

<<I feed him canned Science Diet and I have  dry Science Diet sitting out for my other 3 cats. I also keep a water  dish full for him in the bathtub and one in the bathroom sink and he  is into them quite often .>>

Dry food sitting out all day is not the best approach. How does it go guys? Something about the cats smelling it all day and it makes their urine alkaline so it promotes FLUTD that way? I am sure Peggy or someone knows this one better. I just don't leave food out.

Is your bladder infection kitty getting dry food all day too? That would be the first thing I'd eliminate. Get the cats on 2-3 meals a day, and start mixing wet w/ dry. All-dry is bad because cats in the wild obtain all their moisture from their prey. So by design, they're not used to drinking water. I mix 1 can of 'wet' food w/ 1 can of water, and spoon that over dry. Ideally I let it sit for 5-10 minutes so the dry absorbs some moisture. But that doesn't always happen w/ the poor starving darlings.

<<I don't know what else to do for him.  Thanks for all your help so far everybody.>>

Susie, I would think that if you can get his urine acidified you could eliminate the bacteria. I'm not familiar w/ Tinkle Tonic's benefits- Mary would it help her Stinky kitty to empty his bladder completely? I'm thinking one of the incontinence treatments might be helpful to increase bladder muscle tone.....

Vick, Skippy, Sam, (Mad) Max and Jezebel

Hi all

<<Stinky is very hard to pill. He absolutely HATES having anything put down his throat.>>

How about putting something in his food? You can get unflavoured vit C, such as sodium or calcium ascorbate. That's what Kashmir gets. The vet also gave me amoxycillin, which Kashmir doesn't get :)  The cranberry is vile stuff, I've discovered, so I'm not surprised Kashmir didn't take it willingly. But whatever I give her goes in her food. There's no pilling her either.

<< I'm thinking about trying the Tinkle Tonic but I'm not sure if it will work for him. I feed him canned Science Diet and I have dry Science Diet sitting out for my other 3 cats.>>

I think the Tinkle Tonic is worth a shot. Sorry I'm late on this one, but is this a chronic problem? If so, there may be scar tissue irritating the urinary tract, and maybe that's why Stinky isn't emptying all the way.

Also, is it possible for Stinky to get at the dry food? If at all possible, keep him out of it. And, if this hasn't already been mentioned
half a dozen times, no free feeding! It tends to create an alkaline environment, and you want acidic.

Good luck and take care
Kathy and the cats

<< Amoxycillin for the last 5 days of every three weeks. If I miss the first  day of his medication, he gets another infection like right
 now...apparently he isn't emptying his bladder all the way.  >>

Sounds like you kitty is on his way to developing FUS feline urologic syndrome AND if you have been missing days with the antibiotics and or not finishing them he could build up a resistance etc PLUS the antibiotics can often cause a yeast over infestation which can also contribute to causeing other problems like the urinary problem. It is a vicious circle.

Number one with urinary problems you *definitely* should stop free feeding and only feed wet food. Make sure you take the dish away after your cat finishes because even a whiff of the smell of his food can cause a reaction which upsets the ph balance which in turn creates an environment where cyrstals can grow and block his urinary tract. The recommendations in Anitra  Fraziers book for FUS are wonderful. A chicken soup/vitamin C flush will help dissolve the crystals and normalize the ph level etc. Get her book, The New Natural Cat.

For the yeast there is a homeopathic remedy for yeast called aquaphase that should be given on an empty stomach to kill the yeast. Kitty's take a 1/2 teaspoon on an empty stomach at least a half hour before breakfast first thing in the AM.  Candidaiasis is a major epidemic problem that a HUGE percentage of people and animals have which can cause all sorts of problems. I know I have had it and once you get rid of it, all the other problems you have go away.

If you are interested in learning more, there is a *wonderful* European trained naturopath who has worked with both humans and pets and does phone consultations and can also do remote muscle response testing. He has been working in this field for 18 years and he has a radio show in may area which is soon to be heard in Phoenix as well. He has helped me with things that
regular allopathic doctors didn't havbe a clue about. His name is Dr. Wim Jansen. His office is at the Tree of Life Center in Seekonk, MA and the phone number is 508-336-4242. Other practitioners who can also help there or who work with him as a team are his wife Jane and Peter Morrell.  If you call there with questions they'd be happy to help and if necessary set up a  phone consultation or mail-order remedies for you kitty to you.

If you call they will explain that with animals and children it takes fewer remedies to see a change and animals and childre respond better to homeopathics and vitamins than herbs. Also, unlike much of what has been written about herbs ie. that they work better in combination with other herbs, they often find in practice, especially with animals that just one or two herbs is best. They have found that if too many herbs are used, the organ you are trying to treat can be overworked and be over stimulated.

Also, if using herbs you need to rotate them as you can build up a resistance to them.

Emily 

If she's not blocked yet, I'd try to get Vitamin C in the form of ascorbic acid into her. Pill her if necessary if she won't eat it in her
food. Also try cranberry capsules. There's an herbal tincture sold by Animal's Apawthecary that is supposed to help, but I'd try the cheap things first if it's not horribly urgent.

Peggy
Hester and Elleander

Hi, Joyce

<<Hi everyone.  I need some information from any of you who have had any success with holistic treatment of urinary tract infections in your kitties.>>

Grapefruit seed extract (trade names are Nutri-Biotic and Citricidal) - available in HFS - is an anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral, antiseptic. No known side effects. I haven't used it for UTIs but it does fight infections. Good luck!

-- Jean
   Saski-B & Amber the Sleeping

<< Start with large doses of vitamin C to "bowel tolerance"  - I think 1,000 to 2,000 mgs?  Split it up and give several times a day if you can.  Remove dry  food, do you have canned you can feed?  It's a female, right?  then you have a little more leway, if it was a male I would say rush to the vet, it can be  life threatening. >>

I agree with Lee.  When my male cat had UTI's which is called Feline Urologic Syndrome, after the first and worst attack when I rushed him to the vet I began to follow Anitra Fraziers recommendations in The New Natural Cat and he never had
a significant problem after that.

#1. To make your kitty more comfortable I would STOP FREE FEEDING immediately!
#2. Make the chicken broth described in The New Natural Cat fortifed with Vit C ascorbic acid crystals and give your kitty the broth instead of food for a couple days to bring her Ph around and melt those *mean* crystals that block her urinary tract.
#3 When she recovers. Only feed canned food with low magnesium content if you can't do home prepared. Make sure her litter is cleaned daily. After feeding, remove the food dish when she is finished because even just the smell of left over food can upset the prober (desired) acid alkaline swing.

Emily H

Hi Joyce,

Good to hear Bones is feeling better.  Did I remember right  - u said u'd get some Vit C in the form of Calcium Ascorbate for her UTI?  I think u need Ascorbic Acid to acidify her urine.  All other times, Cal Ascorb is better cuz it is easier on the tummy.

You can get Ascorbic acid powder or crystals and mix into Bones' food.  It tends to be rather sour tasting so she may not want to eat.  Maybe u could mix it into something strong tasting like mackerel or even human baby food.

Yes, u can give all of that stuff together - Vit C, cranberry, and Uva Ursi a.k.a Bearberry (this one I'm told should be taken on a short-term basis only)

Good luck to Bones.  I'm told UTIs are very painful..poor kitties who get them:(

Sandy

Hi List,
I've been lurking for so long you must have thought I'd left! I haven't been well myself and have 2700 odd msgs to read and nearly 5000 in total to decide what I want to do with the info in those I have read.  Get's confusing. I dropped off the Fanciers list some 3 weeks ago but gosh this list has gone from a small to very large almost overnight.  Well done Sandy. Will be going on to Nomail myself for a while to catch up but I can be reached at my E-mail adress privately.

Regarding UTI treatement. I've said this before but it is important enough to repeat. If you are feeding 'raw' foods blocking crystals are likely to be Struvite in which case Vit C )acidic) treatment is required. However, if pellets are used then the chances are that the crystals are calcium oxalate in which case vit C will make it worse. I often see a recommendation for Vit C when the feeding programme is not known.  I think it was Emily who said stop free feeding. I, personally fed my cats once a day - at night only - and in 16 years of breeding - with up to 5 stud males I can count FUS experiences on one hand. I was told by an animal nutrionist from the UK that cats should only be fed once per day (once they're a yr old) to give them time to digest and
metabolize. I had very little illness with my animals (my dogs also get fed once a day) and I'm sure this had somehting to do with it.

My personal hangup. These boys go thru so much pain.
Luv & Purrs
--
Barbara

<from Emily H. 8/6/98 re: GSE (UTI)
In a message dated 98-08-05 15:15:21 EDT, you write:

<< Grapefruit seed extract (trade names are Nutri-Biotic and Citricidal) -  available in HFS - is an anti-bacterial, anti-fungal, anti-viral,  antiseptic. No known side effects. I haven't used it for UTIs but it does  fight infections. Good luck! >>

Jean-

The only thing people have to be careful with regarding grapefruit seed extract (not to be confused with grape seed extract) is that grapefruit seed extract used internally should be used very judiciosly.  It is strong stuff! Externally, you can experiment but internally, I probably would not use the drops of the extract straight without getting more info as to how much to use.

Someone earlier posted that you can take 1 drop per 10 lbs body weight but in the Newsletter I have somewhere on it I believe ther was a reference to a doctor advising a patient to take it internally to treat candidaiasis ( a yeast over infestation through out the body) beginning with just one drop total per day and working up to more drops.

I have also heard of people taking hydrogen peroxide and water internally and have heard the same warnings about that.

Emily H.

Hey Sharon, list

<<BANDIT is still at the vets.  His urine PH is 7  and full of bacteria and this particular vet is convinced it's because of his  diet.  When I mentioned that every living creature has bacteria in their  urine---there was silence.>>

Okay, my understanding of UTI's in people is that the bacteria usually gets to the urethra from wiping the wrong way. It then
travels up the nice warm tube to the warm, damp bladder where it reproduces and causes irritation, yadda, yadda, yadda. So
bacteria isn't a normal thing in urine per se.

<<I asked her to give him a shot of Vitamin C.  Once again, she's convinced that I'm playing with less than a full deck!  She
 has several times said that cats need taurine. Duh?  What have I missed  here?---That is precisely one of the reasons why he's been on a meat diet.>>

Well, surprised as I was to find this out, Vit C is a poor acidifier- and OD'ing on it will acidify the whole system- something you want to be careful with. But C is an anti-oxidant, along w/ Co-Q-10, and a holistic vet on another list said both were good for my cat daily as he has had struvite crystals.

BTW, the Science Diet product, s/d, uses sodium chloride to acidify the urine. Struvite crystals are managed, according to
the Merck manual, by "eliminating bacterial infections of the urinary tract (if present), reducing the urine pH to < or = to
6.0, and reducing the urine magnesium concentration by feeding magnesium-restricted diets." They say this is best accomplished with s/d.

The taurine argument is a familiar one to me, and so is the raw meat is bad for cats. Just went thru 'em this weekend. The
holistic vet I mentioned earlier put me more at ease, as did feedback from people on this list and others. Pitcairn says 30-50
mgs of taurine a day. Manufactured foods are supplemented to bring taurine levels to 500mgs per kg (2.2 lbs) fed. "The taurine
content of beef muscle (raw) averages 360mg/kg of meat, in chicken meat, about 330 mg/kg.  The lowest one was beef liver at 190.  Now of course your cat isn't eating a whole kg of food (which is 2.2#) a day, so you'd have to calculate this out for the amount he averages." That's per the vet, and her source was Celeste Yarnall's book. She also adds a 500mg capsule of taurine
to a 3-4 day food supply for 2 cats, which is about 75mgs extra per day, per cat (she feeds a raw meat-based diet)

<<The vet also believes that he will need to be on a reduced protein diet for  the rest of his life.  This is in conflict with everything I have come to believe.>>

Personally, I don't buy it. I know Judy is happy with her lowered protein diet :) but she has a cat that is actually IN renal
failure, and lowering his protein helps him feel better, too. Your cat has crystals. My vet went home to her books and did her
homework, but all she suggested was dl-methionone to acidify, and gave me the taurine numbers. She couldn't come up w/ the ammo she needed to be able to say that meat diets were bad or that he needed to be on s/d or a lowered protein diet.

<<BTW the crystals are struvite, which I do know most commonly occur with "meat  " diets. >>

They occur from too much magnesium and too high a urinary pH. They are, technically, composed of magnesium ammonium phosphate hexahydrate. "Calculi are not produced unless
1) sufficiently high urine concentrations of calculi-forming constituents exist,
2) prolonged crystal transit time w/in the urinary tract occurs
and
3) (the) favorable pH (for formation) exists. These criteria can be affected by UTI, diet, intestinal absorption, urine volume, frequency of urination and genetics." (Merck Manual again)

<<Ah, well I guess it's Science Diet until I figure out where to go next.>>

I used s/d canned for the first 2 days after Sam was dx with struvite crystals. I then got him up to 1500mgs of C a day (gradually- right Leah? :)) and  gave Vit E and cod liver oil every other day (rotating). After the 2 days of s/d, he ate canned food (precise or nature's recipe) in the a.m. and raw meat only at night for the rest of the week/

He is now on a raw diet, period. I give 500mgs of C every other day, but am gonna switch to Ester-C when the ascorbic acid is
gone. I am also going to start him on 10mgs/day of Co-Q-10. I also mix 800mgs of Vit E in w/ a week's worth of veggies to help
w/ scarring in his bladder.

<<They want to keep him for a few more days, but with the weekend coming up I  don't see what benefit it is for him to be there alone with someone checking on him 2x's a day.>>

Have they gotten him unblocked? I am assuming they have... but trust them if he is not going on his own and they say he needs to stay w/ a catheter. Ask if you can come visit him over the weekend. We did it all the time for clients- I'd just call the
client when I got there, or we'd work out a time to meet.

<<He's never been away from home since he came to me as a rescue 2 1/2 years ago and I'm sure he's feeling lonely and confused.  I know that his "mother" is. (Smile).>>

I know how you feel. Sam was hospitalized 24-7 this January for 5 days. It was devastating for me, and him. Dr B finally realized
that Sam was only gonna get better w/ me around, so he came  home. The vets know that cats do way better at home, and try to send the cats home ASAP :)

--
Vick, Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

<< Well, surprised as I was to find this out, Vit C is a poor  acidifier- and OD'ing on it will acidify the whole system-   something you want to be careful with. But C is an anti-oxidant,  along w/ Co-Q-10, and a holistic vet on another list said both  were good for my cat daily as he has had struvite crystals.>>

The dog gets Grape Seed Extract (not to be confused with grapefruit seed) as an anti-oxidant along with Co-Q-10 and has done well on it despite the fact it costs a fortune.  (Meanwhile my husband has holes in his socks and I buy my clothes at the second hand stores). LOL.  I wonder how grapeseed extract would work for Bandit?

<< BTW, the Science Diet product, s/d, uses sodium chloride to acidify the urine. Struvite crystals are managed, according to
the Merck manual, by "eliminating bacterial infections of the urinary tract (if present), reducing the urine pH to < or = to  6.0, and reducing the urine magnesium concentration by feeding magnesium-restricted diets." They say this is best accomplished
 with s/d.>>

The vet I took Bandit to (allopathic), (my holistic vet lives an hour away and is gone until next Wednesday) says the PH factor should be between 4 and 5 and she feels that 7 is way over the top,

<< I used s/d canned for the first 2 days after Sam was dx with  struvite crystals. I then got him up to 1500mgs of C a day   (gradually- right Leah? :)>>

I have experienced some problems trying to get both the cats and the dog to  tolerate Vit C even in small doses.  It has caused digestive problems in the past.  Should I give it with lots of food and not after they have been fasting for several hours?

<<also mix 800mgs of Vit E in w/ a week's worth of veggies to help  w/ scarring in his bladder.>>

How can you tell if there is scarring in the bladder?  That was the first question that I asked the vet.  She said that since his bladder wasn't more than half full when I brought him in, she didn't think there was damage to the bladder or kidneys.  How does that sound to you?

<< Have they gotten him unblocked? I am assuming they have... but trust them if he is not going on his own and they say he needs to  stay w/ a catheter.>>

Yes, he's been unblocked since I took him in yesterday afternoon. They wouldn't let him come home today, but I am going to go tomorrow morning when the catheter is taken out and have agreed to leave him there for the rest of the day so that they can observe him.  I really don't want to leave him there tomorrow night as they are closed on Sunday.

Thanks Vick, for all of the information.

Sharon
Boston

Vick wrote:
<<~~Well, surprised as I was to find this out, Vit C is a poor acidifier-~~>>

then Sharon wrote:
<<Where did you hear this?  Every book I have around here, from the Nutritional Healing to the cat / dog books says Vit C is a good acidifier.>>

Guess who else is curious to know the answer to this one? (wink,wink ;>)

<<How can you tell if there is scarring in the bladder?  That was the first question that I asked the vet.  She said that since his bladder wasn't more than half full when I brought him in, she didn't think there was damage to the bladder or kidneys.  How does that sound to you?>>

Sharon,

I'm gonna' buttinksky in this conversation here - several years ago, my Giddy kitty experienced some blockage too.  In his case, he had some crystals, but stones that needed dissolving also.  I would think that if your kitty had crystals there would be *some* scarring.  Vit. E will help with tissue repair, healing, retards aging and strengthens capillary walls, so even if there were no scarring, I think it would be beneficial, as would Vit. A for a period of time.  I used both of these in higher amounts for the first couple weeks after Giddy returned home from his scary blockage and I really believe it helped him recover and heal.

Leah

<<Once again, she's convinced that I'm playing with less than a full deck! She has several times said that cats need taurine. Duh?  What have I missed here?---That is precisely one of the reasons why he's been on a meat diet. The vet also believes that he will need to be on a reduced protein diet for the rest of his life.  This is in conflict with everything I have come to believe.
BTW the crystals are struvite, which I do know most commonly occur with "meat " diets.>>

Hi Sharon,
Good luck to you an Bandit.  I hope he will come through with flying colors.

I don't understand the reduced protein bit.  Did you have bloodwork done that reflected terribly compromised kidneys or something?  As far as I am aware,  the  only urinary diet with reduced protein is Hill's c/d-oxalate (or *c/d-o*)for calcium oxalate stones.....a MUCH different  problem than struvite. Struvite usually occurs as the result of a lower urinary pH. The diets like Hill's c/d-struvite (or *c/d-s*, the old, traditional c/d diet) compensate for this by increasing protein (i.e. amino *acids*) and reducing
magnesium (I believe thought of as an alkalinizing mineral).

What worked for me when my little kitty Ophelia (aka Phil) got a urinary tract infection a couple years ago was feeding only twice a day, constantly offering fresh bottled or filtered water, changing litter and being even more diligent about the litter box, and feeding a wet food. All of this information is recommended by the Cornell Feline Health Center as well as the nutritionists *at* Hill's, so your vet shouldn't have any problem with it.  Basically, the act of eating causes what nutritionists call
an *alkaline tide* in kitties and dogs...essentially a surge of alkaline (low pH) urine in reaction to the digestive process.  Hence,  if the kitties are eating all day, they are thought to have chronically alkaline urine, leaving them open to urinary tract infections (bacteria is able to grow at lower pHs).  Feeding twice a day allows the digestive system a break, and allows the urine to return to a more acidic state (more in keeping with our carnivorous kitties' digestive systems anyway). By feeding only canned or
moist homemade foods, you are adding water which will flush out any debris or crystals before they have a chance to form uroliths, as well as forcing you to feed only at specific meal times.  I hope I'm making sense:)

What I also did for my kitty then was give a good multi-vitamin supplement with A & E, fatty acid supplement for inflammation, and 500mg vitamin C powder (with each feeding to acidify the urine), plus a herbal mixture called *Kidney Flow* sold in a holistic pet store here.  Animal's Apawthecary has a herbal urinary formula that looks wonderful if you want to try that route.
These are a coupe quick fixes, once you get him back and settled, having a holistic doctor evaluate his entire history might be a good idea so that you never have to go through this again.

<<Ah, well I guess it's Science Diet until I figure out where to go next.>>

If you have to go the clinical diet route, a much gentler choice IMO is Wysong's Uretic clinical diet (tho it only comes in dry form at this time I believe).  It is based on the same premise as c/d-s but doesn't have the nasty preservatives.  When Phil had her terrible bladder infection/struvite problem, she wouldn't touch the c/d-s (maybe she could pick up my bad vibes about the food), but LOVED the Uretic.  My boss--who is very allopathic and only sells Hill's--even said that Wysong was a good diet choice (albeit grudgingly:)) when I asked him about it at the time.

If your vet has a problem with feeding Wysong, have them call the company, and I'm sure they would be happy to talk to him or her.  Their web address is www.wysong.net, I can dig up a phone number if you'd like.

<< They want to keep him for a few more days, but with the weekend coming up I don't see what benefit it is for him to be there alone with someone checking  on him 2x's a day.  I plan to bring him home this evening where I can watch him and take care of him.  He's never been away from home since he came to me as a rescue 2 1/2 years ago and I'm sure he's feeling lonely and confused. I know that his "mother" is. (Smile).>>

I believe they want to watch him to make sure he doesn't block again.  If he still has crystals in his bladder, there is a potential for them  passing down and lodging.  Urinary tract infections can be a pretty traumatic thing, and it's been my experience that catheterized kitties have very long memories!:)  If you have any Rescue Remedy, now might be the time to use it. My house of cats with urinary tract problems are all pulling for you and Bandit!

Tricia

Vick wrote:
<<~~Well, surprised as I was to find this out, Vit C is a poor acidifier-~~>>

Sharon wrote:
<<Where did you hear this?  Every book I have around here, from the Nutritional Healing to the cat / dog books says Vit C is a good acidifier.>>

Actually this is true.  A book I was doing diet research in compared the acidifying properties of vitamin C to dl-methionine, and in the test subjects dl-methionine was proven to be a better overall urinary acidifier.  This particular book was titled something along the lines of *Small Animal Nutrition*  (I can't quite remember) by Morris, and based on his research at Hill's.  I have the info from the chapter xeroxed and lying somewhere around my messy house....if anyone wants specifics let me know and I can scan and e-mail it.

Tricia

Has anyone ever used Mother Tincture of Urtica Urens mixed with aloe juice for UTIs?

I found this in an old post from Pat McKay (of Pat McKay's dog and cat food). She says she has used it successfully for 15 years and it usually unblocks the kitty within the hour.

TIA

Sharon
Boston

Tricia-
Welcome to Holisticat! I worked as a vet asst. for a cats -only practice for awhile. It sure is tough being open-minded in such a
close-minded environment. Altho, by the time I left, one of the docs was referring herb-related and natural food-related
questions to me :)

I would love the info about acidifiers if you can email me. That particular book is on my Christmas list, and I am pretty sure
that's the one MY vet was referring to when she made her comments about C being a poor acidifier. Altho the holistic vet said
dl_metionine was nasty stuff....

Sharon, you asked about when to give Vit C. I always give it after a meal, then give the cats a couple laps of lactose-free
milk. I just know it makes me feel funky if I take it w/o eating.

There is also a term 'to bowel tolerance' WRT Vit C. From personal experience, bowel tolerance on a 130lb person (me) was
6,000 mgs!! I got a 14 pound cat up to 1500mgs a day, in 3 doses when he was dealing w/ crystals.

I know what you mean about questioning yourself. And feeling guilty. Skippy and Sam did fine on Purina ONE for 4 years. They
were free-fed, a little chubby, but fine. I start tweaking diets, and all sorts of bad things have happened. Do I blame the diet?
Past vaccines? Credit the diet for them surviving? Who the h*ll knows. I look at Max and Jez who eat Innova dry + precise canned and snack on raw meat, and they look and feel great. Sam, who eats all raw, looks great. Beautiful black, shiny coat, high energy, gorgeous white teeth, great muscle tone....

And then there's Skippy. He pukes on raw, he pukes on canned and dry, and he won't eat enough cooked to sustain him. So what does a 'good mother' do? I am agonizing over Skippy. He's my sweetest bear, the love of my life. The one cat I would clone. He takes care of the other cats when they are hurt or scared. He steps in if one cat is badgering another. He stretches out next to me and kneads my neck for hours.

So believe me, Sharon, I know how you feel :(  We have to do what we think is best. If you think putting Bandit on s/d is best, do
it. If you think raw is best, do it. Don't worry about anything except your cat :)
--
Vick, Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

<<Just a note on this - my vet has our cat on vitamin c for FUS. This was  his recommendation, and that plus no dry food seems to be working >>

Marsha- I am so happy Vit C is working for your cat. I am not trying to say it _doesn't_ work, but that science is _not_  backing it up. Vit C, scientifically, has not been shown to be an effective urinary acidifier.

Here's a snip from a post I got from Chris Cowell, the Vetmed nutrition guy: "Vitamin C is a very weak acidifier and does metabolize to oxalate which is a concern on calcium oxalate stones.  Supplementing at 500 mg/ day is excessive considering
that the human requirement (a species that actually needs vitamin C) is 60 mg/day. "

THAT said, any time I feel UTI twinges, I go up to 2000mgs of C a day for 2-3 days and never succumb to that oh-so-pleasant
experience....

Nan, Judy, who knows if it's the C, they type of C, or what... I give Sam ascorbic acid. And that's what he got when he was
diagnosed w/ struvite crystals and a urine pH of 7.5..... 2 days of canned s/d and then 5 of one raw meal and one 'natural' canned meal a day, and up to 1500 mgs of C a day, and his pH was 6.5 and there were no crystals.

Was it the C? Who knows. Even the holistic vet says it doesn't work as a urinary acidifier. But it IS an anti-oxidant, so there
may be something to that aspect.....
--
Vick, Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Does anyone have the latest issue of CATS magazine?  I just read a really good article on FUS in there by Ed Kane, PhD.

Very thought-provoking indeed.  He sez cats in ancient Egypt had crystals too, and that crystals have been documented in the literature in the early 1800s.  But now w/ the "acidifying" diets out there, vets are finding more of the oxalate stones.  Sheesh!  I know several people whose cats developed CRF after being on Hills C/D:((

Also, he talks about the free feeding thing, and mentions that there is indeed an alkaline tide right after eating which makes a cat's urine more alkaline but he sez this would happen regardless of how many times u feed a kitty cat, and that the alkaline rush doesn't last long enough to really cause the urine to remain alkaline.

On reading his article, I felt even better about feeding a natural diet to my carnivores.  It's really an interesting article cuz he also talks about how cat food manufacturers realized it wasn't ash that was the culprit, but magnesium.  Only problem is they used Mag Oxide as the source of mag, whereas studies showed that Mag Chloride was not detrimental.

Anyway, since Marsha mentioned her kitty had been blocked, and I know others have had to deal w/ this (like poor Brandy kitty), I figured I'd give u a heads up to try and get a hold of this article if u can.  It's on newstands right now.

FWIW, I have no commercial interest in this magazine.

Sandy and the mountain cats