<< Should I just continue with the cranberry and give him cantharis 30 and ascorbic acid and hope it works? It usually does, but I don't know why he has this again >>
Allison,
Have you followed Fraziers advice in the New Natural Cat for FUS kitties? That is what I would do (did do with my cat - and it worked).
She says to give your Cat 3 drops of Bach Flower Rescue REmedy every 4 hours for 3 days then twice a day till the disease is controlled.
At the first sign of a prob, withold all solid food and administer 500 units of vitamin C or 1/8 t ascorbic acid crystals mixed with 1 t chick broth. Also give 100 IU Vit E
During an attack and convalescence (besides veterinary treatment) she says:
Fast the kitty on the high Calcium Chicken broth (I did this) for 2 days giving it to your cat 3-4 times per day and mix into the broth each time 250 units of Vit C.
If the kitty is on antibiotics add 1/2 t of liquid acidophilus suspended in water to the food and continue for 2 weeks. Treat temporary diarrhea with 1/4 t apple pectin added to food till stools return to normal. She also gives 1 t. Slippery Elm syrup before each meal.
Eliminate stress for the kitty, provide a "snug" retreat for the kitty, keep a quiet cheerful attitude when you are around the cat; feed a high quality diet with as much raw food as possible; include Vita-mineral mix (without the yeast), eliminate organ meats during attatcks; add 1 raw egg yolk each day to food with 100 units of Vit E Alpha-tocopheral each day for 1 month; then give 400 units each week; also once per week add a 10,000 unit (Vit A) and 400 unit Vit D gel cap combo to the food.
After the attack you can go back to including organ meat and use the reg Vitamineral mix.
I would **strongly** suggest getting or borrowing and then copying the FUS sections plus the sections of the book that tell you how to make the Hi- calcium chicken broth, the vitamineral mix and other stuff that you will want to be able to refer to.
Oh alright, here is how you make the chicken broth:
Get 2-3 lbs organic chicken thighs 1lb necks and backs and add water
to one to two inches above the chicken and simmer with the pan loosely
covered for 3-5 hrs adding water if necessary (If you can't get the necks
and backs just use the thighs or whatever you can find)
* During the last hour remove the lid and let the water cook down till
the chicken is barely covered
*Pour off the broth and cool
*pour fresh water over the cooked chicken and squeeze it with your
hands to get the good out of the meat and into the water before taking
handfuls of the meat after wringing it out and discarding it
* add this broth to the other broth (cooling)
*leave the bones in the pot broken up to cover a small area and add
1/4 c. tomato juice (not v-8) and simmer the bones a half hr to an hour.
Combine this broth with the other broth and discard bones. Freeze broth
except for 1 -2 cups you leave in the fridge.
I recommend organic chicken and spring water or good filtered water for this.
The Vitamineral mix recipe is as follows:
1.5 c yeast powder (leave out during healing)
1/4 c. kelp or trace mineral powder
1 c lecithin granules
2 c. wheat bran
2 c bone meal, calcium lactate or calcium gluconate
Mix and keep in a glass jar in the fridge; add 1 t. to each meal
Also for general good health Frazier says to give 400 IU Vit E (alpha tocopheral) and a Vit A&D capsule described above.
It sounds to me that what might be missing from your kitty's current supplement regime is the Vit E, A+D that will help with the healing AND you need to make a concious effort to be calm yourself and not project stress onto you cat. The Bach Flower REscue remedy (for both you and your cat) should help you both with the stress.
Was it this list or somewhere else where I read that often the same flower essences a cat needs are the ones the owner should also be taking?
Emily
<< i meant, dry food. my friend's cat had a big problem with kidney and since he switched the cat to dry scientific diet, he became a very healthy cat (knock on the wood). my cat used to eat everything, when he was young, but got diarrea once and a vet advised to give him only dry food. we were sorry for him and mix dry and canned food and stopped giving him any food, we eat. since that he does not eat anything but canned food (commercial). does not eat any canned food from the health store. the dry food we give him, claims to be good for ph balance. there is no point to make a food for him - he will not eat it, but we can reduce the dry food. we thougt we were doing good to him making him eat dry food. thank you for your advice. olga>>
Hi Olga. Well, you've heard lots more from the list by now. This can all be very confusing, but let me try to explain a few more things that I have learned by experience and by reading a lot.
Many cats do better after they are put on Science Diet. That is usually because the cat was on a very low-grade food previously or was on an incomplete diet. Science Diet foods (and to some extent Iams also) are carefully formulated for the proper chemical balances and protein amounts, and that often helps cats get healthier.
The problem is that the manufacturers of those foods use some very, very low-grade protein sources. I once worked in a fish processing plant where we sold a lot of our waste to a cat food manufacturer. Everything that was left over got shovelled off the floor and put in the cat food tank--there was often dirt, sawdust, and machine oil in there as well as very indigestible parts like crab shells. By the time it was chemically turned into "digest," it looked like it might have been a kind of fish meal, but there was a LOT of toxic stuff in it. Any food that contains "by-products" has that sort of junk in it.
So, some cats improve at first on a dry food that has the ph balance they need. However, many of those cats will later develop problems from the toxins in the food. Others will develop problems because dry food is just too overcooked and too high in grains for them. Still others will have allergic reactions to some of the ingredients--this can happen with ANY food.
Sometimes the practical approach is to use the vet's advice to correct an immediate problem your cat has. Then, see what you can do to really improve the cat's diet for the long term.
Many cats have eaten "cat food" for so long that they don't recognize
other food as being edible--you know that typical "cat food" smell?
It's the smell of mass-processed dead carcasses, generally treated with
denaturing chemicals. Chicken, beef, or turkey--it doesn't matter
what the meat base is, the food all smells pretty much alike. That's
the emulsifying and preservative chemicals. After years and
years an animal thinks that is what food is supposed to taste like.
You'll be doing your cat a favor y
trying to mix in some other, cleaner foods if you can. As I said,
at least go to a high quality canned cat food mixed with the dry food.
The big manufacturers have an enormous stake in keeping all the cats on their foods. This is BIG money and has nothing to do with cat health. These same manufacturers have supported the veterinary schools and provided grants for vets, and the Science Diet people also provide a nice profit item for the vets to sell. The only thing they need to show is a short-term benefit from the foods in order to keep the vets using them. Even as crooked as human doctors are, they don't have the nerve to be that obvious about it!
Some medium-sized manufacturers, like Sensible Choice and Nutro, are doing a better job of caring about ingredients. Their food costs more, of course, because even low-grade real meat costs a lot more than byproducts. I think the canned versions of their foods are a reasonable compromise, and if you can work some home-prepared ingredients in then you have a pretty fair diet. That's SO much better than grocery store food!
About the fish--as I said, I sometimes feed fresh fish. One of the objections to fish is that it smells and tastes like candy to cats--as you say, it's the only thing your cat will eat besides dry food. Perhaps you can mix some other things with a bit of fish to get your cat interested in more variety?
It's a difficult thing, trying to fight the big money companies. They have lots of scientists and marketing people; all we have is our experiences and our common sense--and common sense is often WAY wrong about body chemistry. (Like the old idea that milk would help "coat the stomach." People believed that for years and years!) We aren't always right, and we can get pretty excited about something that seems like it will "fix" a lot of problems and reduce the constant stress and confusion of trying to stay open-minded. But at least we care about cats, which is NOT something that we can count on from the stockholders of whoever owns Science Diet now.
Gee, maybe we could follow the political trend and kick all the cat food manufacturers out of office after a specified term limit...
Um, I got kinda carried away there, I think I'll go have a nice cup
of tea now...
Leslie
<<U want ascorbic acid, not Ester-C which is calcium ascorbate cuz u wanna acidify the urine here (I think)>>
here i come in my black hat to spoil the day.... according to a holistic
vet and 2 allopaths i've spoken with, Vit C does NOT acidify urine. the
holistic vet prefers Ester-C (And since it is calcium ascorbate, you can
probably find a "generic" by simply buying Ca ascorbate.) the holistic
vet also feels that Co-Q-10 is a good thing for bladder- related stuff
since it's an
anti-inflammatory.
that said all "the books" suggest vit C to acidify urine... and i give 1000 mgs a day if i feel sam is not comfortable urinating....
<<I looked in several books but couldn't find a dosage for cranberry capsules. I would think 1 a day should be ok but hope someone will correct me if I'm way off here.>>
every week or two, i give sam 400 mgs of cranberry extract daily for 3 days. no rhyme or reason, that's just what i do.
Vick and company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
.... AND Jake the foster Aussie
Studies have been done that seem to show that early neutering does not
result in narrow urethas. See
http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/reports/early-neuter.html
Jean W
<< In the worst case scenario, you're simply wasting the amount
because your cat will expel it in the urine.
Hans >>
and you cat might get diarhea if he gets too much....but this isn't the end of the world as long as you realize this it what it is from. If you remember how much Vit C you gave to cause it, just give less the next time. : ). Also, if you aren't giving the Ester (time-release) C and giving the crystals instead, it is best not to give it all at once since regular Vit C doesn't stay in the system for long.
For humans, to give yourself a Vitamin C flush, it is recommended that 500 - 1000 mg's be taken every hour "to bowel tolerance". The next day you'd give yourself less than the amount the day b4 that caused the diarhea until this lower amount causes it. Then you'd reduce the amount again etc etc.
Emily
The information below was originally posted on a nutrition list for dogs, but since we had been discussing cranberry capsules and herbal preparations for UTIs, I thought this would be useful. It's an excerpt from the second edition of "It's For The Animals! Natural Care & Resources" by Helen McKinnon:
Another consideration is that there must be choice of either cranberry
***or** other herbal preparations. I'm told by a master herbalist
that the cranberry treatment should not be given concurrently with the
other herbal preparations,
as they will offset each other and reduce the effectiveness.
Last, but not least, you mentioned that you're also dealing with some emotional issues -- "fear things" with your dog. Turns out that some of the emotional factors in UTIs have to do with fear, anger, and anxiety.
In "You Can Heal Your Life" by Louise Hay, she says in the section that contains "The List of The Probable Mental Cause of bladder Problems is: Anxiety. Holding on to old ideas. Fear of letting go. Being "pissed off". The "New Thought Pattern is: I comfortably and easily release the old and welcome the new in my life. I am safe".
Similarly, in "The Creation of Health" by D. Norman Shealy, MD, PhD,
and Caroline M. Myss, PhD, they say that the second chakra (energy center
located in the genital region of the body) and the bladder is one of the
organs that is nourished by this chakra. They explain and list "The
patterns of fear and insecurity that are associated with the second chakra
development". It is
very interesting to note that they state that "For both male and female,
common dysfunctions include pelvic and lower back pain, herpes and all
other sexual diseases, difficulties with slipped discs, all sexual problems
and bladder and urinary difficulties".
Leah
<<So, after all that intro :) my question is, does anyone have
any suggestions as to either alternatives to gravelroot, or a good
mail-order place that might carry it? >>
Welcome to the list, Stacey! There'll be plenty of people that will undoubtedly give you some dietary advice, so I won't go into that. I had a kitty several years ago that had some urinary tract troubles and I almost completely cured him of it. I will give you a mail order source for gravel root though -- Mountain Rose Herbs, 1-800-879-3337; http://www.botanical.com/mtrose/. I've ordered from them a couple times and the herbs I have gotten have been very fresh.
Leah
lknipp@telepath.com
Stacy, and welcome to the list. Great to hear you're taking such good care of your kitty that he is playing and jumping at age 15. I hope my little scamps do that too:)
About the urinary problems, there are several herbs that are great for the urinary tract e.g. cornsilk is very soothing, cranberry is good for preventing bacteria from attaching to the bladder walls, and uva ursi a.k.a Bearberry is good for short-term use in case of an infection. I think Michael Murray says not to use it if the cat is in kidney failure so I don't give it to mine for that reason.
And Vit C is good anyway so u could give that to him as a daily supplement. I give all my cats Ester-C mixed in w/ their food.
Purrs to your baby from my kitty gang.
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats
I've written about Jake, who has urinary infections, several times and I'm wondering if there is any reason that the raw chicken I feed him may be bringing them on. I know it's supposed to help though.
Here's what's happened. I feed him wet Pet Guard with baby food carrots and raw chicken. There have been at least 2 times when I've had to stop feeding chicken (for financial reasons) for a couple weeks and when I started back up, about 4 or 5 days later, Jake started having trouble urinating. It happened again this weekend. I think we have it under control, but I am little suspicious about the chicken. I plan to explore other possibilities (stress perhaps)and try to figure it out, but I wondered if anyone knew any reason that it might be the chicken. I also gave him a preventative cranberry concentrate cap the day before he had trouble.
TIA,
Allison
My 8 yr old female cat Mickey is showing signs of a UTI and I have been trying to treat her condition w/ some methods mentioned on the list in the past months since i joined. I am making Frazier's chicken broth, and I just bought some CranActin, but before I give pill Mickey I am wondering if any of you who used this treatment remember how much you gave your kitty. If suggested human dosage is one capsule 3x a day, then 1/4 -1/2 cap should be okay for Mickey wouldn't you think?
Thanks for any feedback, Susan
Hi all
Susan, that's about how much I gave Kashmir for her last UTI. It seemed
to help almost immediately, but one thing I did that may help is I dissolved
it in water first. The powder itself is *really* bitter and when I put
just the powder on her food she (of course) refused it. She didn't refuse
the liquid, though. Good luck with Mickey!
Take care
Kathy and the cats
Thanks very much. I also tried to put some on Mickey's food just now, but no go. Then I just went ahead and put the capsule in my pill gun and Roger and I gave her about 1/3 cap. Afterward, I gave her three syringes of distilled water. On another list, someone said that distilled water works well w/ UTIs since it attracts minerals and can thus help clear out the urinary tract. I plan to repeat the this right before bedtime, and then again twice tomorrow.
Thanks for the help!!! I hope this works as well for Mickey as it does for Kashmir :)
Susan
You're right about Arnica. In it's fresh state, it can be very poisonous. So can Thuja. Is this a homeopathic tincture you have? (Because I'd hate to think there's a company selling fresh arnica and thuja preps to the public).
The only real beneficial part of your tincture is the Corn Silk, and possibly the Plantain, but they're probably in a dosage too small to be effective. Personally, I'd toss the tincture and find one of straight Goldenrod, Corn Silk or Marshmallow. These herbs are specific to treating and soothing urinary tract inflammation.
Buchu and Horsetail are very good in specific types of urinary tract ailments, but I don't think they're called for here. The St. John's Wort is probably there to address the 'stress' issue which often precipitates a bladder infection.
Happy midwinter's day to you and yours,
wendy
<< I have found an herbal tincture that I am considering for Giddy's
apparent residual inflammation from urinary problems in the past.
It contains fresh arnica flowers and thuja. I know that arnica in
a homeopathic form is perfectly safe, but I read in Hoffman's book that
arnica should not be taken internally. Is that true, I would assume,
with the entire plant? The thuja would probably be acceptable internally.
The other ingredients seem harmless and may be quite helpful - plaintain
leaf and corm, buchu leaves, corn silk, horsetail grass and St. Johns Wort
(although I don't really think the St. John's wort needed to be in there).
Looking forward to some input - inquiring minds want to know. <BG>
Leah>>
I hadn't heard of IC before, so I looked it up on the web: Basically, inflammation of the bladder walls for no known reason, and a frequent urge to urinate. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any info relating to cats!
I'm a big fan of herbs as medicine, but I like to see all other avenues exhausted before turning to strong herbs like SJW for pets. To me, it sounds like she needs more picking up and holding. One of my shelter pals spent her first two months with us, hiding. After two years she's still timid, but the more we make an effort to hold her and play with her, the better she gets.
If you are determined to sedate her, may I suggest Chamomile instead? It's mild, but effective. Give her just a tiny bit to begin with to make sure she's not allergic to it, and if everything is okay, dose her with two drops of tincture three times per day, or 250 mg of powdered herb three times per day.
You didn't ask about herbal treatments for IC, so I hesitate to suggest anything, but will if you're interested. There are a few herbs that I think could manage (I hesitate to say 'correct') the IC quite well.
Hope you're all enjoying a pleasant holiday season.
wendy
<<My husband would like to give valerian a try for Kirika, our
newest shelter kitty, she of the "I'd rather be beneath a sofa!" demeanor.
She's a little doll of a cat, but so painfully shy that, even when Tim
picks her up to hold her in his arms, she sometimes shakes at first. (I'm
sure some of this is because we've been treating her, allopathically, for
interstitial cystitis, and I am afraid of it
developing into a really vicious cycle for the cat).
Linda>>
<<Linda, I don't know about the valerian dose (I would just put it in a teabag or a fabric catnip type bag and let her sniff it). It's strong stuff, knocks me out.>>
Thanks Lee. (And thanks to all of you who've responded too! And Kathy, welcome back home! Great to hear from you!
I'd tried RR on Kirika as well as on our other two cats at the same time, since I suspect we have a three-cat issue on our hands. Senior kitty Carrie is a small, spayed female, highly territorial 6-yr-old. We added Little Richard (now about 10 mos.) two months ago; he is neutered and quite a solid biggish fellow for a kitten, and rambunctious (he just wants to play all the time, he tries to be good, and doesn't know why the two "girls" don't want to tumble around just as much as he does!). Kirika was the irresistible torbie my DH had to bring home after we had brought Little Richard home, and Kirika is a spayed female, two years old. She AND Carrie will tolerate Little Richard independently, though they seem to tire of playing all the time after a while. However, (as I think we all could have expected) Carrie does NOT appreciate this additional, *female*, cat family member. It's kind of a circus, because my regimen with Carrie is, of necessity, pretty intensive. We've consulted regular vets and a behaviorist over the years, and what we do now for Carrie works, but if I ever try to ease up on keeping Carrie in her own "cocoon" when I can't watch her closely, we have a nasty accident problem (urination) to deal with. But she is sorta *my* problem.
My husband, Tim, has mostly been Kirika's primary "person." (Tim was hoping that if he sorta had two cats to care for, he'd grieve a loss less. YES, I KNOW, I don't think that will work, either, and I've told him so, but he's one of those kinds of people who's going to have to learn about being owned by cats himself. He's got a lot of love, anyway!) We did the typical very gradual introduction, and had been told by the previous family fostering Kirika, that she had been shy for them (I think they had a d*g and Kirika didn't enjoy his company).
I guess between her developing Interstitial Cystitis, which can be aggravated by stressors in the environment, and her treatment for it, which Kirika (and I!) dislike in common, she's having a very rough time here so far and I feel bad. (BTW, Wendy, here's a link for IC in cats which I found very helpful:
http://www.newmanveterinary.com/flutd.htm)
<<If this were my kitty I would try flower essences. I have
a cat who is very shy to strangers, but not to me. I mixed
for him Aspen, Mimilus and Rescue Remedy in a dosage bottle (3-5
drops of each, fill w/spring water, one tsp vodka or brandy for preservative,
all in a 1 oz. dropper bottle. Shake vigorously - some say
as many as 108 times.) Put about 3 drops into her food
- she likely won't be able to taste it. Some say to put
it in the water,>>
I'll get these next week. I've tried RR on all the cats, and had Aspen which I've given to both Kirika and Carrie simultaneously in their water (both, mostly, will drink water fine). What we wanted to try was a bit of valerian root, not Saint John's Wart (SJW), BTW. We had thought that just a tiny bit of valerian, which is described as a nervine, could help Kirika feel less intimidated around the other two cats. Actually, right after I posted we wet a bit of food for Kirika with a tiny bit of the powder in a valerian capsule. Carrie promptly climbed into Little Richard's bed near the woodstove; Little Richard wandered around a while and then settled down; and DH was able to bring Kirika out in his arms and sit for nearly a half hour. Dunno WHAT had gotten into the other two cats, unless it was the HOUR alone that made 'em quiet. It's frustrating that Kirika only comes out of "her" safe bathroom around eleven o'clock at night.
<<I used this on my scaredy cat. Now he doesn't run when people come over - until they come up to him. And even when he runs, if I go get him he doesn't cringe and hide - he'll let people pet him, and purr, if I am holding him. And one weekend I went out of town and had a friend come feed the cats. The second time she came, he came right out to her to get fed, didn't hide at all, and let her pet him.>>
I may just need to again adjust what I expect of kitties, for Kirika. She was a give up at the shelter due to "allergies" and I confess, I have trouble understanding adults giving up cats for almost any reason (I'm SUCH an easy mark for a purr!). If she'd at least be comfortable around DH Tim, that may be all we can hope for from her. At least she's safe, and cared for, and the shelter can handle another "unwanted" in her place.
Again, thank you, all, for your suggestions and responses!
Linda
Oooops. Don't know where SJW came from, as I knew you (and I) were talking about Valerian. Forgot my Gingko today! I'd still go for the Chamomile.
I was also going to suggest flower remedies, but I have little knowledge of them, and I'm glad Lee stepped in with some suggestions. I do know that FEs have to be used repeatedly before they have an effect.
Thanks for the website link. I took a look at it. What types of symptoms does Kirika show? What are you treating her with? And what do you typically feed her?
There are a few herbs here that are used to soothe inflamed bladders, and I've listed them from the best on down. This is just for reference, but I would be happy to help you put together a combination for Kirika if you'd like.
Bonnie,
There are a few different homeopathic remedies Pitcairn suggests for
urinary tract problems. Homeopathic remedies are given based on a cat's
total "attitude." So you need to decide which one best fits your
kitty based on as many matching "symptoms" as possible. Other than
the homeo. remedy I gave my cat w/ the UTI, I also gave her 1/3 to 1/4
capsule per day of CranActin
followed by several syringes of water to help flush the bladder out.
I also force fed her distilled water (as Diana suggested earlier) several
times a day. But what really caused the turn around for Mickey was the
Sepia 30C.
It's important to note that Mickey's case was sub-acute since she was not blocked. For acute cases (where the cat is obviously blocked and in great pain), the treatment is much different--because IMMEDIATE vet care is needed. (Many cats, usually males, die from this type of blockage.)
Begin Quote from Pitcairn's book:
Bonnie, Sepia 30C seemed to fit Mickey's overall picture the best, but not everything matched completely. I gave her this treatment last weekend, and there's still no sign of a flare up. Oh, yes, I also quit letting her have any dry food as this will aggravate UTIs.
Hope this helps your little girl. I like to save those old antibiotics as a last resort!
Susan
here's an important addendum to the use of distilled water for cats having urinary tract problems:
Begin quote:
You might want to add that what I've learned is that distilled is probably
called for if the cat is having an attack, but maintenance is probably
best with filtered water.
Water *likes* minerals, and distilled water will try to absorb minerals from the cat, so there *could* be a mineral deficiency if it's used too long - but that shouldn't be a problem with filtered water.
Diana
End Quote
Diana is also looking for the source for this treament (from a veterinary
journal). She's been using distilled water for UTIs for
years. I'll post that info if she locates it.
Susan
Susan, here is an excerpt I snipped from something I posted sometime ago in response to giving Beth's CRF cat Zuma distilled water. I spoke to one of my faculty colleagues who is a Chem prof. and he agrees w/ this quote from Diamond's book. He doesn't think it will leach minerals from the body. Anyway, I've started adding it to the girls' food since they don't drink any type of water on their own.
I just checked the book "Fit for Life" by Marilyn and Harvey Diamond
and on page 44, this is what they write (after mentioning that we should
get our water from food mostly):
"However, if you wish to drink water, you should drink distilled water
if it is available. Mountain-spring water is not ideal for the human
body, because it contains inorganic minerals that the human body can neither
use not precipitate out. These inorganic minerals tend to hook up
with cholesterol in the system and tend to form a thick plaque in the arteries.
Distilled water does not have this effect. When you eat a piece of
fruit or a vegetable, you are consuming distilled water. The minerals
are taken from the soil, the plant distills them, and then you consume
them. You may have heard that distilled water leaches minerals from
the body. That is partially true. The minerals that are leached
by distilled water are the inorganic minerals that the body cannot use.
The efffect, therefore, is healthful. Distilled water will not leach
organic minerals that have become a part of the structure of the cell system.
Once a mineral has become part of the cell structure, it cannot be leached."
Diana wrote:
<<You might want to add that what I've learned is that distilled
is probably called for if the cat is having an attack, but maintenance
is probably best with filtered water.
Water *likes* minerals, and distilled water will try to absorb minerals
from the cat, so there *could* be a mineral deficiency if it's used too
long - but that shouldn't bea problem with filtered water.
Diana>>
Thanks for this info. and the different opinions. It makes sense that it wouldn't take minerals out of the body once they are part of the cell. I'm wondering though, if the distilled water would make any minerals ingested at the same meal unavailable? For instance, could adding the distilled water to a meal of meat and ground bones cause some of the minerals from the bones to not be absorbed? Am I being obsessive in my search for answers? LOL I knew you'd understand, Sandy. <chuckle>
Be well,
Nancy and the furkids
I was talking to a bio-chemist for a Canadian vitamin and herb product company a year or so ago about distilled water. At that time I was a big advocate of drinking distilled water.
It's true that it's called a 'hungry' water, and for that reason it is very useful if you want to leach nutrients from an herb, vegetable or whatever out of the herb and into the water (as in cooking or making tea, etc.).
He said that, in fact, he had seen numerous proofs (from tests) that distilled water had exploded blood vessels in the stomach because of the difference in densities.
He also said that once you add something - anything - to distilled water (ie. trace minerals, sugar, boullion, etc.), it ceased to have the pulling power and became safe to drink.
I don't give distilled water very often to my cats anymore, but when I do, I make sure that I soak some seaweed in it (ie. hijiki) so the water can draw out the minerals so they're not drinking straight distilled.
As pointed out, many different views to this topic.
wendy
Thanks for more info. I had no idea prior to our discussion here that distilled water could be a hazard. I had just assumed it was a dead, bland, almost useless product nutrition-wise.
<< It's true that it's called a 'hungry' water, and for that reason it is very useful if you want to leach nutrients from an herb, vegetable or whatever out of the herb and into the water (as in cooking or making tea, etc.).>>
So would this mean that it would actually be useful to add to food since it would leach the nutrient into itself and then, presumably, be easier for the animal to absorb? Or would the nutrient be locked up somehow in the water?
<<He said that, in fact, he had seen numerous proofs (from tests) that distilled water had exploded blood vessels in the stomach because of the difference in densities.>>
That's pretty scary stuff. Did you ever experience any problems from drinking it often? But what did he mean by different densities?
<<He also said that once you add something - anything - to distilled
water (ie. trace minerals, sugar, boullion, etc.), it ceased to have
the pulling power and became safe to drink.
I don't give distilled water very often to my cats anymore, but when
I do, I make sure that I soak some seaweed in it (ie. hijiki) so
the water can draw out the minerals so they're not drinking straight distilled.>>
What would be a good reason to give it to your cats instead of regular (or filtered) water?
Thanks for any further information Wendy.
Be well,
Nancy and the furkids
<< It's true that it's called a 'hungry' water, >>
It is also called "aggressive" water and you should never store it in
anything but glass as it will leach bits of plastic or other material container
that it might be stored in into the water. After you drink it you
not only get the distilled water but
bits of plastic etc. This holds true for reverse osmosis water also.
Emily
<< they said the crystals are struvite....so how would I
acidify his diet? Would ascorbic acid be a good supplement in this
case? >>
Yes. My kitty had struvite crystals and Anitra Fraziers FUS regime in the New Natural Cat was what finally cured him. It includes first fasting the kitty on high calcium home made chicken broth w/ extra vitamin C. Then supplementing with yeastless Vita-mineral mix and supplementing with extra Vit C, A and E. All recipes are included in the book.
Emily
<<Also, I forgot to mention that it is crucial that you remember to pick up the dish after he eats so he can't smell ANY food after he eats to give his body a chance to swing from alkaline to acid. A major cause of urinary tract infections is free feeding.>>
Hi Emily and all! Thanks for bringing this point up- I know that a cat's digestive system is stimulated by the sense of smell, and smelling food all the time doesn't give them a chance to digest properly. I didn't know it could cause UTIs.
Melanie
<<So would this mean that it would actually be useful to add to food since it would leach the nutrient into itself and then, presumably, be easier for the animal to absorb? Or would the nutrient be locked up somehow in the water?>>
Absolutely. Add it to food because it bursts the cells that holds the nutrients and assimilates those nutrients into the water, making them fully available for use by the body, and not locked up.
<<That's pretty scary stuff. Did you ever experience any problems from drinking it often? But what did he mean by different densities?>>
Yeeesh. I still haven't made it through the chemistry prerequisite for
my clinical phytotherapist..... Waaaay back, in grade 6 science, we learned
about plant osmosis, where given the opportunity, a higher density substance
would flow into the area of a lower density substance. Regular water is
full of minerals (and other stuff. Yuck), and therefore a higher density.
Distilled water is devoid of everything, and is therefore of lower density.
Higher density flows to lower density, and lower density attracts
higher density.
I haven't knowingly experienced any problems from drinking it, but I usually have a glass with my lunch or supper (thereby changing the nature of the water).
<<What would be a good reason to give it to your cats instead of regular (or filtered) water?
The reason I was giving it to my cats (and drinking it myself) was because of its purity. Regular water is full of chemical additives that municipalities put in to kill the bacteria and other evils that city water has. Waaaay up here in northern BC, the water hasn't been too bad lately (sometimes, though, it gets pretty rank) so they've been getting it straight from the tap. But I rarely see them drinking water anymore (guess they get it from their food), so I don't worry about it much.
Happy New Year to everyone in your house.
wendy
I just can't resist replying to this:
<<I was just looking through a copy of "The New Natural Cat"(1990)-
pg. 242- states that Vit C does help to acidify the body and urine-
getting rid of little bits of crystals and helping to destroy germs....I
know that is opposite from what Vicki was told. Who knows! It sure can't
hurt, it's water soluble and excess will be excreted out of the urine.>>
THIS is exactly the reason you don't get veterinarians happily contributing to these lists often (though, Sandy, I have to say this one is not as hostile as others). If a veterinarian responds to the question of 'does vitamin C acidify urine'? or someone forwards a vets response, you are getting what is known by that vet, usually from scientific evidence that is recent. What we know at this moment is that Vitamin C *probably* does not acidify urine.
On these lists, however, veterinarians are not trusted, so the advice found in a (what? 8 year old book?) written by a layperson with no scientific knowledge is presented as having an equally valid opinion.
Now look - I am not saying Anitra Frazier is wrong in recommending Vitamin C. I AM saying that anyone who posits a *scientific mechanism* (acidification of urine) had better be scientifically aware. It would be different to say that Vitamin C is good for the urinary tract, or is a urinary tract tonic, or helps in urinary tract infections, but I have a real problem with someone borrowing scientific language badly, and using specious arguments to sound educated. Again - I think the new Natural Cat is a decent book, but the arguments presented in this thread - 'does vitamin C acidify urine'? - well they are apples and oranges.
So - if I may offer some advice - if the argument is a scientific one, please quote only scientists or people who are studying science (like clinicians, SOME naturopaths and herbalists, etc). If the argument is a *clinical* one (i.e., what works), then many sources such as traditional literature, and lay practitioners with lots of experience are equally valuable.
Sorry, this hit one of my pet peeves.
Susan G. Wynn, DVM
I did NOT say that scientific knowledge is the only way to access a treatment plan using natural remedies. What I said was that if you are going to explore scientific knowledge of a natural remedy, go to recent writings, scientists or clinicians who know the field.
This does not mean that science based practitioners have all the answers. I promise - you don't want me to prescribe Ayurvedic medicine for your cat - but it might work and you should consult an experienced Ayurvedic practitioner.(this may or may not be a veterinarian, but should certainly be someone who knows Ayurveda AND cats, very well).
My point was NOT that you should always consult a veterinarian. My point was that, researching any area, you should consult those who know it. Anitra Frazier ain't a scientist, though she knows cats. She can talk about her experience with cats, which is extensive. I don't believe she can talk about urinary pH, because she doesn't seem to have researched the issue using the basic, original scientific papers.
SW
<< practitioner- I do understand the importance of research, clinical
trials, etc. In fact, I just finished an elaborate research project
myself. I face these issues (natural remedies vs. allopathic remedies)
in my practice all the time- and it's difficult. I want to be supportive
of natural remedies, but it is hard to recommend some of them unless
they are "proven" to work- "Above all
do no harm!" I'll speak for myself here, I'm not looking to self- treat
my cats- but I do know there is alot to be said about supplements,
etc. There is no money to run the clinical trials to find out if they are
effective or not. Thanks for your opinion.. I do believe it is important
to "ask your vet" I try to be open in my practice that there
are other possibilities out there for parents and kids besides tossing
them an antibiotic!!
Melanie>>
Susan G. Wynn, DVM
hey all-
Susan G. Wynn, DVM wrote:
<< What we know at this moment is that Vitamin C *probably* does
not acidify urine.>>
hey dr wynn -- thanks for your comments (i'd love to see more of 'em, too :))
when my cat was dx'ed with struvite crystals, the allo vet wanted him on s/d or dl-methinione (sp?) to get his pH down. i wanted to try more natural stuff, but couldn't really find anything. i did mega-dose C, and it seemed to help, but who knows...
what do you do for struvite crystals? the weird part, to me, is that sam was diagnosed on a raw diet, but raw meat should have helped lower pH, shouldn't it? i've never used a lot of veggies, and i don't use grains, so i don't understand where the alkalinity came from....
<<on these lists, however, veterinarians are not trusted, so the advice found in a (what? 8 year old book?) written by a layperson with no scientific knowledge is presented as having an equally valid opinion.>>
i think, in the main, you are right. but i worked for a couple of the finest vets i've ever met. the knowledge base these women had at their fingertips astounded me -- for that reason alone, i do not distrust vets. it's just frustrating to want to explore natural care and a raw diet and be shot down by those unversed in alternatives, and i think that's the source of the 'distrust'
Vick and company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Melanie wrote:
<<It is up to the reader of a book, article etc. to make their
own decisions on the validity of the material.>>
So please don't think you offended me; I was only trying to help people understand *why* and *when* different sources of material are appropriate. Your quote above says it all, but how is a person to judge the validity of one author's opinion?
Fortunately or unfortunately, science offers one standard - it is composed of a peer reviewd process where experts in a field come to a consensus about what information is valid and true. Do we have a similar process in the other fields?
Well, the American Herbalists Guild is one good example - this group
certifies members by peer review of experts (my friend Mary
Wulff-Tilford is a great example of an herbalist approved by other
expert herbalists - AHG certified etc).
Is there a certification or standard for homeopaths? Not really. Veterinarians can take Richard Pitcairn's course, but I cannot remember other *certifying* standards for homeopathy.
Chinese herbs/TCM - there are courses for vets and courses leading to OMD degrees.
Nutraceuticals? Nah, nothing.
Basic diet? really a knotty subject, but suffice it to say that real food feeders have discovered something that the expert board certified nutritionists already know, but don't want to talk about for many reasons.
This is one of my reasons for falling back on science - because there is a *little* bit of science that can help me judge what works and doesn't work, where there is not much of a cllinical tradition in cats for these things. Where I have no science to go on, I use the knowledge of my expert friends like Mary, Pitcairn's homeopaths, etc. Where there aren't objective standards by which to judge a person's knowledge, I have to go with their experience, period. This is where someone like Frazier comes in.
Again, sorry to drag this out, but Melanie did hit the nail on the head - how do you know who to believe? I believe my system is fair, until we have better ways to judge.
Susan G. Wynn, DVM
Hi all
Happy New Year!
<<i did mega-dose C, and it seemed to help, but who knows... what do you do for struvite crystals? the weird part, to me, is that sam was diagnosed on a raw diet, but raw meat should have helped lower pH, shouldn't it?>>
You know, Vick, when Kashmir had a UTI last February that's what I did too-- mega doses of C, but also cranberry. The vet was unable to get a urine sample so I never did find out if there were crystals involved, but with the C and the cranberry it cleared up in a couple of days. Thankfully it wasn't very severe, either. The funny thing, too, was that Kashmir was *also* on a raw diet. The only thing I can think of was that I wasn't as careful about taking up the dishes after meals, that and stress. There must be some other contributing factors? I appreciated that post some weeks ago about stress and urinary problems in cats, because that fits Kashmir to a "t". I still wonder about other physical causes too though.
<< i do not distrust vets. it's just frustrating to want to explore natural care and a raw diet and be shot down by those unversed in alternatives, and i think that's the source of the 'distrust'>>
Indeed, Vick. I too have two of the best allo vets I could ever hope
to know. I've been lucky enough to help broaden their horizons, and they're
very good about encouraging me. I think these two must also be magnets
for clients like me, who prefer holistic healing but must work with the
available resources, ie no naturopathic vets within a 9 hour radius of
here, so they're exposed to natural medicine from all over. They're also
quite adamant about me giving them or directing them to the available
literature on any given treatment, and I've learned a whole lot from them.
I know others haven't been lucky enough to find vets they can work with
and trust, allo or holistic. I didn't have a vet I trusted in 11 years.
No way am I going to let these two go. I also think, too, that for some
people, not trusting a vet may cause them to put off treatment for their
animals. I know
I did with Kashmir's continual throwing up. I got so frustrated with
vets telling me it was behavioural that I stopped asking. Then our current
vet diagnosed her food allergies, and she went way out of her way to do
it, too. That means a lot. Allo or holistic. Someone who's willing to take
longer than the allotted 10 minutes or whatever, to find out what's going
on. Same goes for human doctors.
Well, I got a little carried away here! I hope everyone is having a
good holiday.
Take care
Kathy and the cats
<<She says that Frazier recommends 10,000 IU a week for healthy
cats, or about 1500 IU a day. Okay, I was wrong! I don't have Frazier's
book. Does she have a chart or anything with vitamin requirements? Anyone
feel like posting it if she does? I'd be pretty
interested in comparisons.>>
Frazier's recommendations for vitamin supplementation differ according
to whether you have a "heathy cat" , one under going stress or fighting
a disease. In her anti-stress supplement section, she says 100 units
per day of Vit. E for two weeks, then 400 units per week. For Vit.
C, 250 units 3-4 times a day (this is while under stress, keep in mind);
for Vitamins A and D, once a week, give one capsule containing 10,000 units
of A and 400 units D. There are also some separate recommendations
for supplementation
for infections and wounds.
Just as a side note, when my cat suffered with his near-urinary blockage several years ago, the holistic vet with whom I was consulting at the time was a strong believer (as am I) in vitamin supplementation. His recommendation at that time was 1)Vit. C to bowel tolerance, 2)10,000 units per day of Vit. A for 2-3 weeks, then 1,000 units /day 3) 400 IU per day of Vit. E for 2-3 weeks, then 400 IU 3 times per week. I felt those guidelines were a little radical, but as I recall I did give those dosages for around a week, then tapered back down to a reasonable amount. I feel the body can tolerate higher levels of vitamins when injured or ill. You have to be *very* careful with fat soluble vitamins, such as Vit. A, D and E and not give high dosages for long periods of time.
Leah
thanks everyone for the input and concern about my big boy, sam.
i took him to vetsmart on sunday becuz he still wouldn't eat... i wasn't so much worried about pancreatitis anymore, since he wasn't jaundiced and his urine was pretty light, but was concerned he might have an obstruction. the vet agreed with me , but wanted blood work to rule stuff out.
i guess i should have warned them that i'm the only person who can hold sam alone for blood, as it took two techs and a vet to get blood from him, and they still had to shave a spot AND gave him a nice hematoma. he also ripped someone's scrubs. this is the same cat that i can hold alone for a jugular stick, simply becuz i'm his mom...
anyways, the first round of blood work was screwy, so the vet wanted to get more blood for another round, no charge. this time sam peed on the girl whose scrubs he ripped last time! but this was a good thing cuz they said his urine really smelled and think he has UTI. they never got a sample, but prescribed clavamox for a week, to recheck urine on sunday, and if there's still bacteria, put him on antibiotics for a month.
the blood work showed all his liver and pancreatic enzymes within normal
ranges, but an elevated creatinine with a normal BUN. also an elevated
cholesterol level. the vet also sent it off to the lab at no charge to
get a second opinion on everything. they gave sam 250 mL's of sub-q's (this
i had them do in the exam room, tho, so i could help with him :) ) and
didn't charge me for that, either. the vet was really cool, and just chalked
stuff up to professional courtesy since i am an ex vet tech here
in town, and she knows the dr i worked for...
so i paid for the antibiotics, rather than get into my beliefs there, and have been giving him cranberry twice daily, and started C today. haven't changed his diet except to reduce the organ content (stein's recommendation, i think). i'm a little concerned about the creatinine, but the vet thinks it's just from the infection... so now my big goal is to get him thru this and prevent scarring.....
(oh, and on a joyous but unrelated note, aussie rescue has agreed to take jake, and will get him the surgery he needs for his leg!!! he will be moving to south carolina to have the surgery done there, and will be staying with a vet tech for his recovery.)
--
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Good to hear Kashmir and Annnie haven't had a fight today! yay! BTW, i sent u that stuff we were talking about.
<<symptoms. But with this last one, the only thing she did was pee on the rug.>>
Oh dear, then it *is* possible that the evil one has a UTI after all!:(
<< *sneak* her off to the vet -- is it at all possible for you to take her while husband-guy is away at work or something? Yikes.>>
I think that would really upset her b/c she really loves this cat. But she thinks she is doing right by this cat, and I don't think so on this issue.
<< Barring that, it may not be a bad idea to get some cranberry into her, and some flower essences. The cranberry in particular -- it sounds as>>
Actually she is very open to alternative ideas cuz they are cheap to try. I have some cranberry capsules and can give 'em to her. She will try my suggestions as long as they don't involve a vet visit, so thank goodness for that.
<< BTW, does Kitty get along with your friend, or is it just the husband and guests she's hissy to? Odd that she gets along well with the dogs. Good though!>>
She only gets along w/ her mama and the d*gs. She adores the girl d*g who in turn barely tolerates her. Boy d*g doesn't like her much but isn't mean to her or anything. Anyone who barely comes in the door gets hissed at. When i went over to say hi to her while her mama was away, she hissed at me even when I gave her some treats. And when I tried to put a treat on the floor for her, she swatted at me and slashed me so badly that I had to go to the doc to have it treated. I have never had a cat hiss at me for no reason, so she is a complete mystery to me. She was not abused as far as we know..who knows what her story is.
If u think of some essence that will help, would u email me cuz I can go get it for her and that would be ok. She's open to FEs, herbs, etc...that part is no problem <whew>
Thanks!:)
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats
I have a few ideas about your friend's kitty that is peeing on the bed. Personally, I agree with you that the kitty should go the vet to rule out physical problems.
I've had two cats who peed on the bed. In Neisha's case, he would jump onthe bed and approach me like he wanted some attention. He'd look me straight in the eye and then would pee. I finally made the connection thatit was his way of telling me he wasn't feeling well. Shortly after he would pee on the bed he would get the nastiest, smelliest diarrhea you can imagine. Neisha gets intermittent bouts of severe colitis and whenever he would start getting sick he'd pee on the bed. It got to the point where if he'd pee on the bed I'd know he was starting to feel sick and I'd give him the medicine the vet recommended and we'd head off a full blown attack.
Checkers was my FIV kitty and she loved to sleep under the covers so she was in the bedroom a lot. When the disease finally began to take it's toll on her body she became fearful of the other cats and I knew she was afraid she couldn't defend herself especially since she was declawed. (I didn't have that done). I didn't think anything had changed but one day I saw one of the other cats chase her. Finally I realized that she was afraid to go in the litter box. I kept her in a room by herself for awhile after that but when her health started to improve and she became more confident again she stopped peeing in the bed. I guess my point is that even though we can't see a change in the environment sometimes it's a change that isn't necessarily obvious to us but is still stressful for the cat.
Lastly, I fear that your friend's kitty is really stressed by the husband. Eight years ago I adopted a cat from my real estate agent. She was taking the cat to the humane society for a family member because the husband hated the cat and the cat was high strung, nasty, and spit at everyone. It broke my heart because I knew she wouldn't have a chance at the humane society.
Her name was Calley, a gorgeous short haired calico with black rims around her eyes that looked like she was wearing eyeliner. Not only did she have the worst temperament of any cat I had known, and at the time I had close to 20 cats, but her stomach was completely bald and she was starting to lick the fur off her legs too. Right now she's sitting on the computer table watching me type. She did not have an easy time adjusting and there were certainly times I thought I should find a new home for her but she has turned into a real love and I am so grateful she shares our home.
Cats are so sensitive to people who don't like them and if I were to
hazard a guess it would be that this is one very angry cat and she is definitely
trying to tell her person something. Homeopathics can be very useful
should this be the case. Common remedies for this would be Sulfur,
Nux vomica, and for severe anger, Belladonna. (That's per my vet)
The thing that bothers me about this is that if the cat is indeed really
stressed, angry, fearful, whatever, it could eventually cause some real
physical
problems. How about an animal communicator? I'm not a gambler
but I'd bet a hefty sum that the cat is reacting to environmental stress.
I hope your friend will let you help. It is the worst to have a cat pee on your bed. I remember times when I had to change the bedding three times in one day. YUK
Candy
Hi Sandy,
Here are a couple FEs which might help Kitty:
From _Twisted Whiskers..._ by Pam Johnson
Can't wait for the next Kitty update. Hey, maybe your friend could slip the &^%$&* hubby some FEs? :)
Susan
Sandy,
Sometimes kitties just won't use a litter box without *something* in
it to scratch in. When I needed to get a urine sample from one of
my kitties, my vet gave me some small plastic beads to use in the litter
box. The cat could scratch around and feel more comfortable, the
plastic didn't absorb any urine, and the sample was taken into the vet's
for analysis.
I also have a kitty that had bladder stones and some scarring of the kidneys - shown via an ultrasound - but no crystals showed up in the urine. The vet diagnosed interstitial cystitis, and operated to remove the stones. (That was before I found this list). The only way I knew she was hurting was she began peeing on the bed to get my attention.
Several years later this same kitty took a disliking to my SO, and began to pee on HIS side of the bed only. That's when the bedroom door got closed. They still aren't on 'speaking' terms - I think they're both jealous of each other, and Joe knows better than to try to make me choose.
So it really could be either a physical or emotional problem.
The cranberry, dandelion and marshmallow sound like a good place to start
if it is physical. I would also add vit c to bowel tolerance and
some colloidal silver to the mix. But a urine sample to the vets
is a must.
Kat (Mew Jersey)
<< Sandy,
I have another suggestion. If you already have a certificate
for the vet, why don't you have your friend remove the litter from
the litter box. Put a cap underneath one end so that the litter
box is elevated and hope the kitty goes in the litter box one time.
This can then be put in a container that you could take to the vet
with the certificate to rule out a urinary tract infection.
second suggestion: Has she changed litter or the litter box location
recently? Could the cat maybe have had a traumatic experience going
to the bathroom? Possibly one of the dogs close by? Let
me know how you make out.
Carol>>
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