Laurie (Wildflower)
<<Judy, thanks for the aluminum foil suggestion. It might work in this case cuz cat only pees when they are not on the bed, and my friend finds out much later when it gets rank in there. >>
I apologize in that I did not see Sandy's original story on this cat -- but from the responses I've gotten a chance to read, the situation is a good deal like ours with Carrie at first. I don't know if any of the stuff we've been able to do will help, Sandy, but feel free to forward my email address to the woman if she uses email, or pass along the stuff we've done.
<< Oh I forgot to say this earlier Candy - kitty followed hubby, and got along fine w/ him as a kitten. But somehow after she became an adult, she and her father just never got along any more. Plus she has a lot of siamese in her, and seems to me siamese cats people either love or hate. I like 'em a lot but this one's voice is like nails on chalkboard <shudder>. Sadly, he clearly hates the constant "talking" that some people like so much:((>>
This sounds like the man himself is not fond of the cat? In our case, Carrie latched on to *me* since it was *I* who picked her to be my cat at the shelter. The behaviorist suggested that my DH (Tim) do some of the feeding of Carrie, spend some time with her and so on, just in case it was a problem of her sense of how she related to Tim. I notice that she sometimes looks as though she would really like MORE of Tim's attention -- he likes her, but mostly his time's taken up with "his" cats, although if I urge him, he'll talk to Carrie and pet her and stuff. She really eats it up. Actually Carrie's tendency to mark was mostly *my* side of a sofa or whatever, though.
I've never yet resolved whether Carrie MIGHT still have a urinary physical
problem, but I am pretty sure not, as she uses her box
PERFECTLY now since we give her her own time in her own small space.
(She has her own room, a bathroom in our house!) It sounds really
compulsive and/or gross, but one thing that really helped in our case was
making very sure we know Carrie's habits. That is, if you know when
your cat is most likely and able to urinate or mark or whatever, you stand
a better chance of averting disaster. A bit after her meals, Carrie
gets to go to her room, with lots of praise and treats and so on, for a
bit, at least until she has used her box. When I will be away from
the house for a period of time (say, a work day), Carrie stays in her room,
apart from our other cats. As long as we follow this protocol, Carrie
has no accidents. In our case, I am pretty sure it is a territorial
(thus, emotional/mental, not physical) thing: she sees a perceived
threat somewhere, and must assert her territory somehow. She is a
rather small cat, and I don't know about her early socialization at all,
but she is a scaredy cat in ways, and I think of her as a little Napoleon
(BTW, *I* am a small person, myself <G>).
I actually kept a log for about a month, for our behaviorist, of ANY incident of Carrie urinating or defecating. This was a way to both learn sorta how her metabolism runs (when to get her to her box), and see if we could identify the impetus of her incidents (whether she liked to get up somewhere above the ground, whether she saw out a window, and so on.)
It's hard, with cats like this, often, to find out what is a good treat or positive reinforcement. I know that Carrie loves walks on her leash, and loves food treats, but I have also learned that getting outside tends to heighten a cat's territoriality :-(. Carrie doesn't much like playing (though she's learning by watching Little Richard). She's also very secretive about using HER box. She won't use the other litter boxes -- though she will smell them occasionally; she is very sensitive, I think, to scent. I have to say that I think it takes a good deal of willingness to work with your cat's personality, a great deal of patience, to succeed in coping with cats with an ingrained problem like this. It is just possible that veterinary attention won't be able to do too much, unless you really want to tranquilize the cat and that's not always a solution. It did NOT help Carrie at all.
I ADORE Carrie, and we have a situation where we're able to work things so she is safe and cared for AND kept from destroying our house. But I have to say in fairness, that it is a great deal of work and pretty stressful making sure we know where she is at any given time, and that she has enough good time with us and the other cats but also gets time to use the litterbox enough. I had very high hopes for a lot of different approaches, but so far none has been a magic cure. Could be we'll still hit on it, but I just sort of figure that she's a high maintenance kitty, and that's the cost of her affection!
Cheers,
Linda
Laurie (Wildflower)
It is dry reading but as this is a concern to me I did find it interesting
so thought I'd pass it on to the list.
http://nss.vet.ohio-state.edu/Vm%20720/LUT.html
Debbie, Apollo (eskie), Zeus (sheltie), & Odin (Ragdoll)
<<Johnson also notes that if a cat is suffering from urinary tract problems, she shouldn't have brewer's yeast as it has magnesium in it, but a stressed out cat (one having behavioral and/or physical difficulties) needs B vitamins, as a cat under stress uses up this vit. particularly (p. 37). Maybe a good B complex would help....>>
Susan, do you (or anyone else) happen to know if nutitional yeast (instead of brewer's) would be okay for a cat suffering from urinary tract problems?
Am also passing along a tip I got from a newsgroup. I have no personal experience, but here it is:
The person writing the note has a cat suffering from FUS. She
has tried many food combos and nothing works. Then she tried 1
tbsp of tomato juice twice a week mixed in with her baby's food. he
says it works because the tomato juice is high in acid content dnd
"burns" the crystal build up in the ureathra before it can block up.
Her cat is 14 and has not had an attack in six years. She also says her
cats like the taste.
Best,
Kate
Kate, in _The Encycl. for Natural Pet Care_ CJ Puotinen notes that both premium quality brewer's yeast and nutritional yeast are a "rich source of B-viatmins, amino acids, selenium, chromium, potassium, phosphorus, magnesium, copper, manganese, iron, zinc, and other trace elements." p. 107.
Unfortunately, the author doesn't give numbers, but I think the two
yeasts are very similar and some books (ie, _Prescription for
Nuttritional Healing_ by Balch & balch) treat them as the same
thing I think I'd avoid both types for a cat w/ urinary tract problems.
Thanks for the info about tomato juice and FUS!
Susan
Missy
I would be very interested in hearing from others who have had continuing problems with LUTD. I have had quite a few patients where we tried:
raw diet, high meat (75%)
distilled water
no dry diets (which I wouldn't recommend for healthy cats)
Of course, I tend to use other things - glycosaminoglycans and Chinese herbs in many cases, along with some homeopathics for acute discomfort - but I find that BARF, raw, Pitcairn, McKay----you name it--- diet isn't always the answer. Sometimes it takes more , and sometimes I can't deal with these guys at all.
I would love to hear how many people have had this problem even on good diets. LUTD usually occurs in cats less than 6 years of age, tapering off after that. The proper term should be applied to cats with struvite crystals or simply blood in their urine - NOT bacteria. If anyone on the list has dealt with large numbers of cats with the above urinalysis results and found a *magic bullet*, I wouild love to know about it.
BTW, for those of you who are Net researchers, particularly promising treatements are pentosan polysulphate (a glycosaminoglycan like chondroitin sulfate) and a Chinese herbal combination the researcher calls 'choreito'. These have both been investigated by Tony Buffington at ....Ohio State maybe? Purdue?
They aren't readily available, but the glycosaminoglycan supp. is a prescription called 'Elmiron', and the choreito - well, I don't know that one, but I use a Chinese herbal called Polyporus combination.
Susan G. Wynn, DVM
<<"My neutered male Devon Rex cat has had urinary problems for the past 4 weeks. The vet originally put him on Clavamox. He was retested and still had a bacteria infection and was changed to Baytril. He was just retested today and they said the infection was gone but he still has Struvite crystals and blood in his urine and needs to be put on Science Diet s/d and Methionine urinary acidifier medication.>>
first, from what i've heard, s/d and dL-methionine should not be used together or they result in over-acidification.... they're supposed to be an either-or thing...
my cat was prescribed amoxicillin for a suspected infection the sunday before last. they did not test his urine, they simply prescribed it based on blood work and the way his urine smelled when he whizzed on a tech. i never gave the amoxi, i used cranberry, E and a horsetail/marshmallow infusion and he recovered fine. actually, from what i read in that cat book at school today, most unobstructed cases of FUS in cats resolve within 5 days regardless of the treatment used. the same book advised against using antibiotics unless the bacteria was identified and targeted.
actually, real quick aside for dr. wynn -- would you feel comfortable guessing an infection in a cat w/ a normal temp, low WBC's, hi RBC's (he *was* dehydrated), anorexia and vomiting whose creatinine came back 2.6 w/ a hi normal being 1.3? i just worry that i'm missing early kidney problems and was thinking of having another kidney panel run....
<<This has me very concerned because he has been on BARF for a year with occasional Wysong or Innova when I've run out. I refuse to give him Science Diet and since he already is on Raw diet I don't now what else to do. I hate giving him all these antibiotics.>>
sam has had recurring bladder problems, several bouts with struvite
crystals, and an ongoing spraying issue. he has been on an exclusively
raw diet for over 6 months and a most of the times raw diet for 6 months
prior. he eats 80% meat, 20% veggie. i don't
really supplement, except bone meal when the bone portion of the food
is low.
i *seem* to have helped him with the cranberry and infusion routine once daily now that the acute stage has passed, but don't know if i stopped the herbals if the irritation would come back...
since a raw diet is supposed to "cure" FUS, i'm really wondering if it's simply 'incurable' on a permanent basis... sam *should* be the picture of health, but this FUS thing ain't going nowhere. skippy, on the other hand, ate a commercial diet longer and has never (knock wood) had a urinary problem. maybe it's just particular to some cats....
dr. wynn, are you effecting a 'cure' with the use of glycosaminoglycan
and Polyporus combination, or are you seeing it recur when the supplements
are stopped?
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
I've had several cats with similar problems and it turns out they had
calcium oxalate kidney stones. There are several types of stones,
but unless you have them tested, you don't know what they are. Some
can be dissolved with supplements, but others-calcium oxalate- won't dissolve.
The vet I was using at the time picked them up on x-rays, but had a really
hard time diagnosing the source of the recurring problem. I got a
referral to the vet school where there were able to do a pyleogram
Dye test) to determine each kidney's functioning ability and determine
where the stones were and the best course of action. My understanding
is that because the stones are porous, they form a perfect hiding spot
for bacteria. Even though you treat with AB, it's difficult to completely
get the little buggers. One of my kitties, Heidi, ended up
having surgery to remove the
stones- one was blocking her ureter. A second kitty, Holly, was
diagnosed 1 year later-both bladder and kidney stones and had lithotropsy
to break up the stones so she could pass them. Both are senior citizens-
Heidi was 14 when she had the surgery; Holly was 15. Both came
through with flying colors. They were both under the care of Dr.
Larry Adams at Purdue. I know Purdue does phone consultations and
they were extremely reasonable from a price standpoint. Phone is
765-494-1107.
<<Never any trouble before now -- he's about 5 years old. The vet said it is probably diet related, but his diet has not changed in the last couple of months....why was he so acidic 4 weeks ago and so alkaline now?>>
I can empathize with you wholeheartedly!!!.
One of my vets who is a feline kidney transplant surgeon at Angell Memorial Hospital in Boston tells me that:
1. Science diet food is recommended so frequently by vets not because of the nutritional content, but because it's the only food that vets are familiar with that is "balanced" and won't cause crystals.
2. She also supports the fact that some cats will get crystals regardless of diet. She recently operated on and removed 20 kidney stones from a kitty that had been kept on Science diet for the past eight years because of an earlier bout with crystals.
3. Two of my vets (one holistic and one allopathic) concur that if foods like Science diet are used, the kitties should be evaluated every few months. Both agree that they question the value of keeping a cat on something like Science Diet forever..
<< Can stress cause this? He's under quite a bit of stress from the alpha cat, Yoube.......>>
This is the exact same problem that I have in my house. Two neutered males and five spayed females. Bandit, the youngest (3yrs old) male provokes Samson the older male.
Samson got tired of being provoked this summer and seriously retaliated. Two weeks later Bandit became blocked.
The rest of the story is pretty much the same as what you are experiencing with catherization etc.
Now for maintenance I use Urtica Urens on Bandit and flower essences. Over Christmas, Bandit exhibited some signs of discomfort and I started administering the Urtica Urens every twenty minutes. Within an hour and a half he was in the litter box and fine.
Here is the description of the Urtica Urens treatment taken from Pat McKay's website. I didn't use it until after Bandit had been treated allopathically. I gave him the 10 day course, plus the Christmas time episode and will probably continue to do so periodically in the future.
http://www.patmckay.com/webdoc47.html
BTW, Urtica Urns is available in HFS.
<<Any ideas here or personal experience....where do I go from here.....I was giving him cranberry last week - started on Thurs.>>
Everyone here gets cranactin in their food or in the case of the boys with a syringe.
<<Vet is already talking Hills C/D....oh no....Please help if you can....thanks.....>>
There are a number of other foods besides Hills if you choose to go back to prepared foods. I believe that Wysong makes a food for Urinary Health.
BTW I have an appointment with the animal communicator for Feb 6 to speak with Bandit again. My present communicator doesn't seem to have much impact on him and so I'm going to try out a new personality.
Sharon
my apologies for starting a thread then dropping out of existence... it's been a rough week, and a weekend of playing catch-up on stuff that isn't nearly as fun (but does pay the bills...)
anyhow, on the bone meal -vs- calcium bit.
<<We know what's in bonemeal. So, what's in real bones? Are they the same? If so, then why is bonemeal bad other than the fact that it is cooked whereas cats would normally eat 'em raw?>>
yumi answered that bone meal is more or less the same thing as bones. and you're right, for most cats, i'd say use bone meal (or real bones). but my line of thought is one of diet modification for an animal w/ a chronic condition, like sam seems to have... there is obviously something going on in a cat who has been on a raw diet for a year who is still experiencing struvite crystals...
struvite crystals are (chemically) magnesium ammonium phosphate hexahydrate -- which to me translates to too much Mg and Ph. crystals are urinary precipitates, which leads me to believe that sam is getting too much Mg and Ph in his food. skippy has been eating ground meat with bone meal for 4 months without any problems, so perhaps this demonstrates that some cats (probably most of 'em) do okay with bone or bone meal and some cats don't
<<If indeed real bones have the same Cal, Phos, Mag and trace minerals then wouldn't u want that to be replicated by the bonemeal? Wouldn't switching to just Calcium cause an imbalance? Reason I'm asking is that isn't Phos acidifying? So by cutting back on Phos, wouldn't it exacerbate FUS and other probs caused by too lo urine acidity.>>
i guess the test here would be to switch sam to calcium instead of bone meal and see if he gets Ca oxalate crystals :)
seriously, in the book i just got (thanks mom :)) "The Holistic Veterinary
Handbook", one of the steps in the 'holistic rationale' for
treating FUS is to increase disease resistance, *reduce the ash content
of the diet* (my emphasis), increase water intake, acidify the urine, encourage
frequent urination, and give a urinary antiseptic. the author (Dr. Wm Winter)
believes that the root of FUS is "processed, cooked pet food".
so i *think* that by reducing the ammt of Mg and Ph in sam's diet, i am reducing ash (been a long time since i've seen all this stated explicitly). there's also a woman on another list who says to not feed FUS cats bones. i've replied to that post in hopes of getting more concrete info from her, and hopefully, figgering this all out.
from what i can tell, i'm balancing the Ph in meat with the Ca in the CaCO3 supplement. in the "quick feline meatfest" recipe, pitcairn calls for 1 1/2 teaspoons bone meal OR 600mg Ca OR 1/3 teaspoon of eggshell for 1 cup of meat chunks. that ammt of bone meal actually contains 2475 mgs of Ca - and 60 mgs of Mg + 1125 mgs of Ph... that's a LOT of minerals floating around in the system....
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Hi Noreen,
I'm so sorry for poor Cletus and you. he must have been in a
lot of pain :(. The Vit. E and aloe were just for helping any scars
in the urethra and bladder heal. I didn't even consider that Cletus
still had crystals. I've been reading about this in the Encyclopedia
of Natural Pet Care as both Mickey and Pete have recently had urinary tract
problems. Anyhow on pp 446-448, Puotinen makes several nutritional recommendations.
First is, you guessed it, a well-balanced raw food diet fed only twice
a day w/ once a week fasting. She says this in itself will "cure"
many urinary problems. She also recommends the following:
Susan
From "The Holistic Veterinary Handbook" pg 109-111
Note: Dr Winter believes that FUS is a manifestation of a problem that is digestive by nature. He has a very nice chart of how he believes FUS develops. At the foundation of this diagram is a box that reads: "Processed (low vital force), cooked pet food fed at wrong times and in excess (the true etiology)"
He builds from there, and recommends for all animals a raw diet. He suggests grinding whole meats w/ a hand grinder and gives quantities as 50-60% animal products (meat/eggs/dairy) 40-50% plants (vegetables/grains/fruits)
He lists as "best grains and veggies": Rice, oatmeal, wheat, peelings, trimmings, cooking oils, all edible leftovers such as bread crusts and outer lettuce leaves. (But -my interjection- these are for dogs too, so take w/ a grain of salt)
Here is the tx plan:
1. INCREASE DISEASE RESISTANCE:
a. minimize stress in all possible ways
b. weight reduction (if indicated)
c. positive thinking, imagery, color therapy
d. vitamin supplements/diet
e. fasting -- one day every week
f. greens daily, especially asparagus, nettles and dandelion leaves
2. REDUCE ASH CONTENT OF DIET
a. See pages 174-176 (my aside: these pages simple cover home prepared
diets and good commercial foods, nothing at all about Ash...
perhaps they are used to 'convert' commercial kibble feeders??)
b. avoid dairy products, fish and overfeeding
3. INCREASE WATER INTAKE
a. use non-city water (e.g. distilled, spring, mineral)
b. Use a clean, non-plastic bowl
c. add high water content foods to diet
d. moisten food
e. regular fasting (offer water, broth, bouillon, juices)
f. add Sea Salt to diet, 1/4-1/2 tsp. daily
4. ACIDIFY THE URINE (TO DISSOLVE STONES)
a. offer tomato or cranberry juice
b. give Vitamin C 1,000 mgs 1-2 times daily
c. use commercial acidifiers
d. offer a few drops of apple cider vinegar, malt vinegar, or other
flavored vinegars
5. ENCOURAGE FREQUENT URINATION
a. use multiple litter boxes
b. clean the boxes fastidiously
c. try several brands of litter side by side
d. do not feed anywhere near litter box
6. URINARY ANTISEPTIC:
a. Herbal Diuretic (R)
-- high dose: 1-5 days
-- moderate dose: 5-10 days
-- low dose: 7-14 days
Repeat as needed
(my note: I am not sure if this is listed as either/or options
or as a series of steps... he lists the dosage as 1-2 capsules once to
four times daily, so obviously, you'd need some veterinary guidance here)
b. use ampicillin in cases resistant to the above
7. DIAGNOSIS:
a. perform a urinalysis by collection (AVOID CYSTOCENTESIS)
b. X ray/ palpate if calculi are suspected
c. Catheterize under a light anesthetic if needed to relieve obstruction
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Hey everyone --
Noreen, I'm so sorry your boy is back in the hospital :(
<<cranberry capsules (1 a day), but I wasn't following it with water and he doesn't drink much. Do you think its safe to give a capsule and then put some extra water in his food? Will that be enough?>>
I would think that cranberry is fine. It probably doesn't do much re: crystals, but I imagine it will help prevent a secondary infection (becuz in people it makes it so bacteria can't stick to the bladder walls)
Can you give Cletus anything via syringe? If so, you can pop up his H2O intake by giving him 5 cc's of water every time you think about it. I give Sam 5cc's of an herbal mix most days of the week, and on the off days, I try to remember to give 5 cc's of water instead.
Well, I've been meaning to get around to this, so here goes. The following is the treatment plan from the "Holistic Veterinary Handbook" by William Winter, DVM
HOLISTIC RATIONALE:
Rule out leukemia, stress, anatomical defect, emotional or other underlying
disease conditions
1. HOMEOPATHIC THERAPY FOR CYSTITIS:
a. Urtica Urens -- for straining
b. Rhus tox -- if caught very early
c. Apis -- for frequent, involuntary urination; scanty and highly colored
d. Cantharis -- for intolerable urging, constant desire to urinate
or great pain, urine may be bloody and w/ matter
e. Nux Vomica -- if Cantharis does not afford relief
f. Aconitum -- every 2-3 hours for feverish symptoms, frequent ineffectual
and painful attempts to urinate, pain from pressure in region of bladder,
scanty urine, turbid and bloody urine
g. Thalapsi Bursa -- every half hour for blocked urethra
2. FLOWER ESSENCE OR CONSTITUTIONAL REMEDY (for underlying conditions -[he doesn't elaborate])
3. HERBS:
a. Couch Grass Root -- steep 2 oz in 3/4 pint of boiling water. Add
1 tablespoon to food twice daily
b. Bladder infection formula: Nettles, Goldenseal, 2 part Buchu and
Flax seed. Mix and give 1/3 teaspoon twice daily.
c. Birch leaves -- make a tea and add 1 teaspoon to food twice daily
d. Nettles -- specific for urinary bleeding (also as a tea)
4.FOODS:
a. Linseed gruel, barley water, scalded linseed mixed w/ bran-mix
b. Finely shredded parsley and cooked carrots
c. Cooked whole barley
d. Honey
e. Cranberry or tomato juice
5. SUPPLEMENTS
a. Vitamin C (500- 1,000 mgs a day)
b. Sea Salt (1/8 tsp a day)
c. V-5 enzymes (Ness V-5) -- high dosage for 1 month, then a maintenance
dose of Prozyme for life (the V-5 he has dosed at
1/2 tsp a day for all dogs and cats, so I'm not sure what he means
by "high". For Prozyme, he lists 1/4 teaspoon per cup of food)
d. Some totally resistant cases may require systemic antibiotics
6. WATER -- FRESH daily in glass, ceramic or wooden bowl that is washed regularly
I'm gonna try to type up his other FUS plan in a minute....
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
<<He had peed blood in his cage all night, but finally enough did>>
Noreen, one of the symptoms for Cantharis is where the pee is almost full of blood tho there are other remedies as well depending on his other symptoms. Poor Cletus, I can't even imagine the pain he must be going thru:(
<<Pitcairn's book made a lot of sense....so I am going to try and find some of the homeopathics to use and also am investigating the Standard Process stuff. The vet started him on Baytril - does any one know if I can give herbals with this? I know I can't give the homeopathics with it, but thought maybe the herbals I could>>
Oh yeah u can. Homeopathics can be used alongside allo meds..it isn't ideal but hey as long as he doens't antidote it, go for it. I'm telling ya like Susan did - the only thing that will work fast is homeopathy..U can't beat that w/ a stick. So don't let any arcane rules deter u. Look at his symptoms and give the appropriate remedy at this time. Main thing is to ease his pain. Then u can treat him for the chronic cystitis problem.
I sound like a broken record but if u've seen the miracles I did when I interned for my great-uncle who is a homeopath (now 92 yrs old and only semi-retired) you all would know the healing that u only see w/ homeopathy. Herbs are great, whether Chinese or Western..don't get me wrong. But ain't nothing like homeopathy - works w/in minutes and can effect a complete cure sometimes w/ just 1 dose. Unfortunately, it isn't an easy mode of healing to use:( In the right hands, it's nothing short of magic.
Ok, end of (unpaid) infomercial <g>
Sandy, owned and operated by the homeopathy-loving mountain cats
Poor Sam!
Vick, I looked for something you might not have...I don't recall in the many past discussions of Sam's urinary tract problems any mention of _Four Paws, Five Directions_ so I thought I'd throw in what Cheryl Schwartz writes about this topic (pp317-18):
"HERBAL TREATMENT
Some herbs have been shown in the literature to break up and in some
cases, dissolve stones and sand crystals. In my practice, long-term
acupuncture and acupressure treatment seem the best method.
For triple phosphate crystals: cleavers, red clover, eyebright and horsetail.
For uric acid crystals: wild carrot, pipissewa (wintergreen), celery root, cornsilk and gravel root.
For long-term use, up to two months, choose one to three herbs, and
use 1 to 3 drops each in 1 ounce distilled water. Use the dilution
once daily. If diarrhea occurs, stop the herb. Triple phosphate crystals
are the most common type of sand found
in cats with chronic cystitis. The crystals form in urine with
a basic pH. Therefore, it is important to acidify the urine as much
as
possible. This can be done with cranberry juice concentrate and
vitamin C. Vitamin C should be given as rose hips, at 500 mg twice
daily, as long as there is no diarrhea....decrease dosage if diarrhea develops.
DIETARY RECOMMENDATIONS
Avoid feeding shellfish, although small amounts of fresh cod are allowable.
Most of the diet should consist of rabbit, chicken and chicken gizzards.
Garlic is good to add to the food, as it contains a natural sulf-type antibiotic
as well as an antistagnation factor. The herbs listed [above], for
triple phosphates can be given once a day for up to two months. If
diarrhea or increased thirst arises, discontinue the herbs. What
is important to remember is that stone formation is just a symptom of an
imbalance between the kidneys, heart, liver, and spleen, and that this
imbalance needs to be addressed."
You might have this book...I know you already have at least some of
this info, but I haven't seen some of these herbs mentioned...Also I'd
never heard about using the meat (& gizzards) she suggests. I
wonder if those gizzards really help....Come o think of it, initially
I didn't add gizzards to the mix and I did have Mickey come down w/ a UTI....For
the last few months, chicken gizzards have been a regular part of the mix
and Mickey hasn't been having the problems she did. (Of course, I
also
treated her homeopathically and the stress level is much lower now...Still
I wonder why gizzards might help....hmmm.
BTW, yesterday we bought some rolled oats at the HFS to try out. You just soak them....for how long?
Susan
Hi all and Noreen
Noreen wrote:
<<To fill everyone in again, Cletus was hospitalized with
bloody urine a week ago Tues.....he stayed until that Thursday and is still
sequestered in the bathroom because he is still peeing and spraying a lot.
He is on>>
Noreen, I don't have any personal experience at all with FUS, but here is an excerpt from Diane Stein's Natural Remedy Book for Dogs & Cats, maybe you'll find something here to help:
-begin quote-
Homeopathy
When FUS is chronic, or after the acute and inflammatory stages mentioned
above, try Equisetum (horsetail grass); the animal urinates frequently
(with little straining), especially at night, and is still uncomfortable
even after the inflammation clears. Eupatorium is for chronic urinary
"gravel" and high albumen content. Where the bladder has thickened and
urine has sediment and an ammonia smell, the remedy is Pareira brava. There
is constant urging, much straining,a nd thick, dark or bloody urine.
Causticum can follow Cantharis when urinary infections recur or become
chronic. This especially benefits the older animal.
Veterinarian Gloria Dodd treats feline urologic syndrome as follows:
I use the combination homeopathics: Cantharis 6X (for painful burning sensation), Belladonna 6X (antispasmodic to the urethra and bladder sphincter), Cuprum metallicum 50M (very strong antispasmodic ...), Berberis vulgaris 6X (because most cases of cystitis are associated with liver and kidney disfunctions) and Hydrastic 6X (lymph drainer of all epithelial lined organs). If there is blood I add Ferrum phos 6X. For kidney or urinary bladder stone problems I add liver supportive treatments, for the liver pathology is the basic source of the stone formation in the urinary tract. Again the stone formation is due to a liver toxic with drugs, chemicals and vaccination efects.
-end quote-
She also writes
-begin quote-
Flower Essences:
Give Rescue Remedy from beginning to end. Mimulus is for fears, Star
of Bethlehem for shock, Hornbeam for fatigue and courage, and Gorse to
adi hopelessness. Olive is for the pet who is exhausted, ill and traumatized.
Redwood and Helleborus are specifically for kidney, bladder and urinary
dis-eases. Salvia is for stability under stress.
-end quote-
Of course there are 2 schools of thought about using homeopathic remedies in combination... Sure hope your little guy improves soon. Give yourself a hug to help your aching shoulders and heart.
--Jean, Saski Basket & Amber Sweet T'ing
Hi all
Following my liver post is my urinary problem post. It's long; Vick already posted the CJ Puotinen info so I'll leave that, the rest is homeopathic stuff compiled from Pitcairn. I can post Macleod's info if anyone is interested; it's very *very* long. Noreen, I hope Cletus is feeling better. Kashmir used to have bladder problems when she was younger and I know it's miserable.
Pitcairn:
begin quote
During the acute phase of the condition, put the animal on a liquid
fast, offering a broth. For cats use a broth made from meat or fish. You
may add a small amount of natural tamari soy sauce to season it and to
supply easily digested amino acids. In addition, provide your pet with
pure water at all times.
For one month, also use these measures.
Homeopathics:
If your cat needs to be catheterized, an additional treatment that will assist recovery from this procedure is Staphysagria 6C.
Subacute cases:
Here the problem is not obstruction but inflammation. The cat feels
a frequent urge to urinate, but the flow is scanty or blood-tinged. This
misery can go on for days, perhaps with temporary improvement. However,
the problem continues or recurs every few weeks.
Note: if you do not see any improvement after 24 hours of using on of these homeopathic preparations, discontinue the treatment and reassess the situation. If antibiotics and other drugs were used at any time, they may have altered the symptom picture. Think back to the symptoms that were present before treatment was started. Use these as your guidelines in choosing a remedy.
Chronic cases
Try the following herbal treatment for a cat who never has a severe
bladder problem, just a weakness in that area, such as a tendency toward
urinary frequency or urinating outside the litter box. Or use any one of
the medications as recommended for subacute cases in cats, if the symptoms
displayed match those described.
Herbal: Use shave grass, also known as horsetail grass or scouring rush (Equisetum arvense) for two to three weeks. Bring one cup of water to a boil. Pour it over one rounded teaspoon of dried herb or one tablespoon of fresh herb. Cover and steep for 15 minutes. Strain. Give this twice a day
kashmir@
<<Does she say anything about infusions? Cuz I have been using a horsetail infusion... If I hafta buy the tincture, I will, of course....>>
Schwartz just mentions herbal tinctures for this condition. For other conditions, she suggests herbs in powdered/capsule form, so I am assuming she doesn't consider the herbs in different forms (infusions, tinctures, dried/capsules, or fresh) interchangeable, but I really don't know.
<<Well, Sam is the triple phosphate man it seems.... Heck, what about everything I've heard saying C doesn't acidify?!?!?>>
I wondered about this, too. Schwartz doesn't footnote this comment, so maybe this is just something that she took for granted...not sure. Her book is copyrighted 1996, so maybe she didn't have access to the info you found. I guess I like what Puotinen says in _The Encyclopedia of Nat. Pet Care_ that vit. C helps "balance" alkalinity and acidity in the urine, but of course this isn't footnoted either, just makes sense to me because vitamin C does seem to help UTIs.
<<Well, Sam already eats chicken... I wonder if she means to decrease organ meats and use gizzards instead? Or just add extra gizzards?>>
I took it to mean chicken muscle meat and gizzards, but no other organ meats. Earlier in this section, Schwartz gives a recipe for cats w/ kidney problems and she only includes white chicken meat, chicken gizzards and hard-boiled eggs as a protein source...hmmm.
Susan
Hi again --
>>everything I've heard saying C doesn't acidify?!?!?
>
> I wondered about this, too. Schwartz doesn't footnote this
comment,
> so maybe this is just something that she took for granted...not sure.
Hmmmm... Rose Hips sure won't hurt, but... Wonder if Ca ascorbate will do for now....
> Her book is copyrighted 1996, so maybe she didn't have access to the
> info you found. I guess I like what Puotinen says in _The
> Encyclopedia of Nat. Pet Care_ that vit. C helps "balance" alkalinity
> and acidity in the urine, but of course this isn't footnoted either,
> just makes sense to me because vitamin C does seem to help UTIs.
Makes sense to me, too. I take mega doses when I feel a UTI coming on, but I also take lotsa cranberry.......
> HO>Well, Sam already eats chicken... I wonder if she means to decrease
> HO>organ meats and use gizzards instead? Or just add extra gizzards?
>
> I took it to mean chicken muscle meat and gizzards, but no other
organ
> meats. Earlier in this section, Schwartz gives a recipe for
cats w/
> kidney problems and she only includes white chicken meat, chicken
> gizzards and hard-boiled eggs as a protein source...hmmm.
Well, I just 'spoke' w/ a holistic vet online and she feels I am too heavy on veggies and organ meats...She's gonna send me her clinic's latest recipe -- she said it's based on research so new that it won't be "finished" for a few months, and they are one of the test clinics. She referenced Dr. Strombeck's book "Home Prepared Dog and Cat Diets" and says that according to him, cats need ("basically) meat, fat, calcium and a few vitamins and minerals"
Looks like more reason to get this book....
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
> Noreen, about 10 years ago I was put on Elavil for depression..not
a
> bladder problem, according to my drug book, its function is an
> anti-depressant..I remember basically for the time I was on it, all
I did
> was eat, sleep & barely function at the office..the book also
says it helps
> with bedwetting?? and sometimes pain relief..it is in the family
of
> tricylcic antidepressants(the book is for people/not cats)..it also
says
> this kind of medication "probably affects part of brain that controls
> nmessages between nerve cells". The book I'm using as a source
is Complete
> Guide to Prescription & Non-prescription Drugs by H. Winter Griffith
MD
> Please be careful, but if you do give it your baby will gain weight,
I put
> on over 20lbs..
> Good luck, we're praying & purring for you & Cletus
> Jane, Kopper & Charliecat
>
> At 03:13 PM 2/27/99 -0600, you wrote:
> >The vet wants to put him on Elavil, seems there has been some documented
> >cases of this reducing bladder inflammation and pain in women and
in
> >cats. The ultra sound revealed a 'thickened' bladder wall.
The vet
> >interpreted this as infllammation. She said when the
urine starts
> >collecting in the bladder, he feels it and immediately wants to
void.
> >I don't know if it just feels better when he doesn't squat and pee
and
> >stands and sprays instead or why the spraying is sooooooo bad.
He does
> >go his litter box in the bathtub if I leave him in there, but if
I let
> >him out he sprays!
> >
> >Anyway -- I have been on Elavil for an injured nerve a few
years ago
> >and it really helped me sleep at night....I couldn't have gotten
through
> >the 6 weeks required for healing without it. I know I have
read some
> >horror stories about this drug, but I don't remember what they are.
> >I'm sitting here looking at it trying to decide whether to give
it to
> >him or not. The literature I got with it just says
1)increased
> >appetite 2)sleepiness. I have read that
some vets give this for
> >spraying problems. Any information would be helpful......
> >
From what OUR vet has told us in regard to my problem peer Carrie, as well as Kirika, our newest kitty, the Elavil would be a sensible choice.
We have had Kirika, our interstitial cystitis kitty, on Elavil twice now. Although our vet says the Elavil acts in cats as a sedative, the purpose for which it is prescribed for most interstitial cystitis (IC) cats is its side-action of decreasing histamine response (this almost verbatim because we visited the vet for Kirika's checkup two days ago). The thinking is that the body sort of reacts against the cat's own urine *as if* it were foreign material, and the histamine response is triggered to try to destroy the material, but in fact attacks the cat's bladder lining. UGH! (Though I would caution against equating every human drug effect with the same in cats!) The "horror stories" you recall, Noreen, are probably in connection with the possible liver involvement. If you give Elavil over a relatively long period of time, you need to keep a close eye on a cat's liver functions, because in some cats, (is it ones with cardiac problems? I don't know for sure) Elavil can elevate the liver enzyme levels.
Elavil is commonly used for territorial marking, because the thinking is that the cat gets anxious about invasion of territory. (This didn't help my Carrie, though). There was a conference our vet went to last week, at which some of the presentations suggested a possible link between IC and anxiety triggers, which *I* believe based on anecdotal evidence. (Kirika has not had any IC problem since we've given her reign over our bedroom and attached bath, and kept the other cats from any contact with Kirika! ;-})
When we talked about trying to ease Kirika's anxiety about our other cats, and told our vet we would prefer an alternative to the Elavil, the vet suggested Nutricalm. I'm just learning about it, but it's from Nature's Sunshine, and it looks primarily like vitamin/nutrient therapy with a bit of herbal added (hops, I think valerian and chamomile too??) -- B vitamins and some C. I can't tell you how well it works really. Kirika seems a lot friendlier, but she's only taken the Nutricalm about two days so far!
The good news about the Elavil is that, theoretically, you would NOT have to keep giving it to Cletus forever. I guess this assumes that Cletus' illness has not ingrained in his mind that litter box=pain. I am afraid that before Carrie was my cat, she formed a pretty strong link between "cat sighting" and "emergency!" so I just have to watch her behavior at all times and be sure she is sequestered when she spots "an enemy." Noreen, it works, but it's very nerve-wracking, to put it mildly! We have not yet looked at whether it could possibly be that Carrie also has aftereffects from an IC episode(s) in her past. She is PERFECT in using her litterbox provided *WE* make sure she is alone with little choice BUT the box!
Cheers,
Linda
lindasaffell@
> 70-80% ground beef & chicken or turkey; 10-15% liver; some veggies
> (zuchini, peas, green beans, carrots, whatever), Frazier's vitamix
> without the yeast, Ester C, Vit E a couple times a week, Cod liver
oil
> capsule once a week or two. I'm sure I'm leaving something
out.
> Couple of books I've read said cut back on the liver if there are
> crystals. I'm going to fast him on chicken broth for a day,
but I
> need to decide if I'm going to get him some cans of that Hills crap.
Ditch the liver. That's one of the first things the vet I chat with said to do for Sam. What I'm doing now is grinding a 3-4 pound chicken and only adding gizzards - no liver. I threw the heart in, too, but Sam gets zero liver from now on. I bought extra gizzards (about 1/2 pound) and ground them in, too.
Also, the veggies. I cut way back on those, too. I now add (per the vet's rec.) two serving spoon sized scoops of veggie. For me, that was reducing veggies a lot.
Personally, I add a couple tablespoons of ground flax seed (ground the minute before I add it to the mix, which is portioned and frozen immediately to maintain the flax's freshness) because it's anti inflammatory and also has Omega 3's and 9's which help balance the Omega 6's in the chicken fat. I also add 1/3 of a 30 mg Co-Q-10 capsule (10mgs) to Sam's breakfast daily. Oh, and I add 4,000 mgs of C (as calcium ascorbate) to a week's worth of food. I give 400IU's of E a week (when I remember) and give cranberry capsules and horsetail infusion when I think of it.
I'm not a big believer in fasting, so I only fast puking cats, myself. But if you feel better using the c/d-s canned for a few days, I don't think you're hurting anything. May help get things 'right' and then make the modified raw diet's job that much easier....
> What makes me nervous is that the vet just said "change the diet"
-
> according to the tech, anyway. Now that I've read all my books, I
see
> that Kelly had the classic symptoms of FUS. I wish I'd picked
up on
> it earlier
The 'change the diet' is a pat answer. It requires no thought on their part -- think of it as a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not defaming, it's just that with the rx diets, they know they work, so it's the first thing that they suggest. Don't let it worry you - do they know what you really feed?
> Ok, any other ideas? Thanks for the input Vick. So isn't
struvite
> what Sammy has? But the triple phosphate needs to have more
acidic ph
> to get rid of, right?
Triple phosphate crystals ARE struvite crystals, so their needs are one in the same. Yes, urine needs to be more acidic. My guess is Kelly's pH was 7.5-8.0... that's always where Sam seems to be when he's having problems. I think normal pH is around 6.5 (hell, it's been so long since I've seen a normal reading that I've forgotten!!)
Sam, Kelly and Cletus (among others, I'm sure) are in the same boat.
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
Hi all --
> >to do for Sam. What I'm doing now is grinding a 3-4 pound chicken
and
> >Also, the veggies. I cut way back on those, too. I now add (per
the
> >vet's rec.) two serving spoon sized scoops of veggie.
>
> Vick, is that amount of veggie per 3-4 pound chicken?
Jean, it sure is. When the vet looked at my 'recipe' she saw it was close to 1/4 veggie, and probably about 1/5 organ meat. Skippy LOVES the new mix, and Sam is still sulking over the lack of liver (he loves that crap)
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
In a message dated 3/5/99 6:43:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, critterz@writes:
<< Does phosphorus and magnesium = ash??? >>
Well, the vet said there must be too much ash in Kelly's food. And I asked him what was ash that it would be in homemade food, and he said phos and magnesium. So I don't know - but if the crystals are "triple phosphate" that makes sense to me that they are made from too much phosphorous (that Latin I took in Jr. High is still with me <gg>)
<<But liver is packed with phosphorus--way more than a whole chicken! >>
Ok, so that's why Vick said take out the liver - it's super-phos! I usually use 3-4 lbs beef, 2 lbs chicken or turkey, about a lb of chicken or beef liver (the beef liver stinks so I haven't used it lately). I looked up ground beef (regular - I use somewhat leaner than regular) and beef liver, and the liver has 1.5 times as much phos as the beef, but the ash content for either is very low. So I don't understand why the vet said that - or for that matter, why ash is listed on the nutritional analysis in canned foods - must be something about the processing that ads ash?
Lee
Hi all -- There was quite a bit of talk about what caused crystals, especially the struvite type. I have read that now they are saying it is only the PH of the urine and not magnesium or ash, if it is true that magnesium and phosphorus play a part, then I wanted to analysis the foods more carefully.
Cletus has completely refused both S/D and C/D in the last few days ..... Yaa, Cletus, I always knew you were a smart cat. Unfortunately he hasn't been too gung-ho on raw either :(
Any way ... Pitacairn or Fraizer or both said omit the liver. Well if you analysis liver, it has 272mg per 100mg (about 3 large chicken livers) of phosphorus. This is not a lot considering the min requirement is 400-500mg a day. Its ash is 1.17grams and magnesium 20mg. Requirement of mag a day is about 400mg.
Chicken - roasting chicken - raw has 1.07g ash; 198mg phosphorus and 23mg magnesium per 100 grams (More magnes. Less Phos than the liver and less ash too). So does more phos equate to more ash??????
Ground beef - raw - has 1.0gram ash; 130mg phosphorus and 16mg magnesium per 100g food
Beef Liver - raw has 1.34g ash; 318mg phosphorus; and 19mg magnesium per 100grams food Again more phos, less mag, more ash than chicken; (more phos means more ash?)
Since one of them recommended substituting egg yolk for the liver, I checked on it:
Egg yolk (100grams) 1.77g ash; 488mg phosphorus; and 9 mg magnesium (about 5 eggs) Here again - the most ash and the most phosphorus, but low mag???????? So ash must be more related to phosphorus than to magnesium.
So I really don't think they are using the phosphorus and magnesium in these foods to justify omiting or adding them to the diet for cats with FLUTD. I thought at first they were looking at the natural methionine in these foods (for the acifiying quallity) but that can't really be the case either, because after looking at this again (based on 100grams of any of these foods) the methoinine is chicken liver (.425g) , chicken breast (.639g) , egg yolk (.416g) , g.beef(.388g) , roasting chicken meat only (.563g) and beef liver (.506g) . The chicken liver has more than the egg! And the beef liver has more than the ground beef!
I don't know what they are going by when they recommend one food over another.....
--
Noreen >^,,^<
Hi folks --
> I got a little bogged down here, but I have an idea. S/D and
C/D are
> what vets RX for those crystals??? What is the main protein
sourse in
> those foods? Maybe ya's can learn something from those ingredient
> labels?
Wouldn't it be nice if we could? One of the reasons I had friendly arguments with Sam's old vet was becuz both c/d and s/d have liver - something all the good books say to avoid during episodes. They also go heavy on corn because corn gluten meal is the best acidifier the pet food industry has (i found this in a vet text - can get the source when i get home if anyone is interested) I just don't want my cats' protein coming largely from corn.
> I still don't understand what ash is completely. Why would we
need to
> know what is left after something is burned down? It's not
only a cat
> thing that's monitored, but a people thing too. Why?
I just don't get
> it. My Websters dictionary doesn't explain it either!
I *think* (and this is purely rambling thought) that the whole ash thing started in the early 90's with people thinking that ash was the cause for urinary precipitates. If ash is what's left over after a physical burning, I'm wondering if that's extrapolated to chemical breakdown and consumption in the body.... Then if lotsa minerals are left over after the food is burned, they may have concluded these would be 'left over' in the body, too, and excess minerals precipitated out to form crystals and/or stones.
The problem I have with 'ash' being blamed is this: From my chem classes,
the logic would be that as long as the Mg, Phosphorous and Ca (and others)
exist in balance in solution of a proper pH, the amount is less relevant
- until you reach the saturation point. Something that I *think* would
be reached earlier in cats on a dry food diet simply because cats are
programmed to get their water from their food.... The more water a
cat consumes, the more dilute his urine. The more dilute their urine, the
further it is from the saturation point.
> if a mostly cooked diet would be better for these crystals?
And Ph??
> Do you guyz (everybody--not just kitties with crystals) figure out
the
> ph of the foodies?? I've been making foodies since June of
'97 and
> never once figured out ph ratios! Man, making the boyz food
is mostly
> paper work as it is! So Jean is more than likely correct, we
should
> check the ph of the urine on a regular basis.?
I'm sticking with raw, but that's not to say I think you're way out in left field for wondering. If I can tweak the raw, tho, I don't wanna deal with the hassles of cooking :)
I think checking urine pH can't hurt. It's something I plan on doing as soon as I can track down some pH strips.
Vick and the kitties
mailto:vick@
Hi all,
I've been reading all the stuff back and forth posted about FUS or FLUTD as it is now called. Since I've never had a cat w/ FUS, I have nothing personal to share <thank Bast!>
But as an observer, I'd like to share my thoughts on this.
First off, I must say I agree w/ Leah in that some cats seem to be genetically predisposed to this problem (and I'm sure others). Boo like her boy cats, ate dry food all his life (free fed at that!) and never got FUS. Course I do believe it contributed to his CRF but I can't prove it.
Anyway since boys, and some boys more than others, seem to be prone to FUS, my advice would be constitutional homeopathic treatment which addresses this susceptibility. Some homeopaths might even call this a miasm.
Sam's diet seems to be balanced so it doesn't appear to be the Phos that would cause the problem. That makes no sense to me at all b/c the Phos in meat or liver would acidify the urine, not make it alkaline. Also let's not forget that liver also has calcium and in fact is recommended for cats w/ oxalate stones.
Kathy's post about boys v.s girls got me thinking too; she may be on to something.
Anyway, I dont' think diet or herbs is gonna adequately address a situation which is so deep-rooted. This is my hunch anyway, and I hope I didn't discourage anyone. I share the concern that tweaking the diet might cause other problems down the road e.g. Magnesium is crucial to heart health.
Now if only it were easier to find a real homeopath in my (and other) neck of the woods <sigh>
Sandy
I hope I am not breeching any netiquette by cross-posting this, but
since it has been the subject of posts lately on both lists here
goes....
As you all know I am fighting a battle of FLUTD with Cletus. I had another urinalysis done yesterday and was very disappointed to hear that not only was his urine neutral (7.0) when my aquarium PH test kit said it was 6.2, but also there were a few red blood cells and some struvite gravel.
He stopped eating the S/D about 10 days ago so the vet said to switch to C/D....he only ate that about 2-3 days. So he has been on raw meat and regular food.....some PetGuard, Nature's Recipe and dry Eucanuba Lamb & Rice or what he could steal from the other cats Sensible Choice, Nutro Natural or BacktoBasics. He has not had any cranberry for 4-5 days, but has taken some MethaGel (Methionine). He won't eat chicken gizzards which are suppose to be highly acidic or raw egg yolk (re Frazier).
Just out of curiosity I called a few companies to see what the resulting PH of urine would be if their diet was fed exclusively and was very surprised, especially in Hills C/D
All dry foods:
| BacktoBasics | 6.5 |
| Sensible Choice | 6.0-6.4 |
| Nutro Natural | 6.1-6.5 |
| Eukanuba Lamb & Rice
(advertised for FLUTD) |
6.1-6.5 |
| Eukanuba Vet Diet
(Struvite Crystals) |
5.9-6.5 |
| Hills S/D
(struvite diet) |
5.9 - 6.1 |
| Hills C/D
- the long time favorite of vets - |
6.2-3.4 |
This is tellling me that Hills C/D is no more acidifying than any of the other foods! And only the S/D is extra-acidifying to break up the crystals! So you could maintain on any food.
Another thing I have been really torn up about is the debate for free feeding and dry food. And the following url is what got me started thinking:
http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/urinary.htm
I know Frazier and Pitcairn say no free feeding and no dry food, but their books are SEVERAL years old. This is an area where methods and beliefs seem to change rapidly. I have had cats since 1969 and have never had a case of FLUTD or crystal formation and I always free fed dry food along with a small amount of canned once a day until about 6 months ago.
It has been a lot easier not to free feed. This way I can really monitor the different diets of my cats well, but I am tempted to revert to this with Cletus since he is confined to the bathroom most of the time as an experiment. Perhaps not having food freely available is aggrevating his stress condition, thus the problems......I may be reaching for straws here......I would appreciate any input here on feeding methods from those fighting this disease to get a small sample.
I wonder if there is any scientific proof in Frazier and Pitcairn's
theory that free-feeding causes alkaline urine to be formed from
smelling food all the time. Does anyone know or is this
just a theory that has been around so long we know accept it as fact since
these books have been read and believed for so long? According
to the Cornell site, the opposite is true!
I looked at Belfield's site and he didn't mention feeding methods, just tooted his cure-all for FLUTD which he sells under the name of Carpon which is vaccinium macrocarpon or cranberry tablets! I know that cranberry "reduces the ability of Escherichia coli to adhere to the lining of the bladder and urethra, reducing the potential for infection. The juice is excellent against scurvy and to allay fevers." (Metropolitan Plant Encyclopedia) But I have never heard it is acidfying. Does anyone know if this has been documented anywhere?
The vet told me to try Vitamin C at a low dose and when I told him I was already giving about 200mg a day, he was surprised that that amount was not helping. Of course, now there is debate over whether Vitamin C will acidify.
Anyway I'm going to up the Vit C a bit, go back to twice daily cranberry capsules, 100 IU of Vit E and the cod-liver oil capsules.
I halved his Elavil because of urine retention (could have been a cause of crystal formation) and he is spraying some so I am considering dropping it altogether. Something, either the week of Elavil full-strength or the E and cod-liver oil helped his bladder and it was no longer 'thickened' as of the last ultra-sound.
Any further comments or commentary from those of you fighting his problem now or in the past would be greatfully received..........
--
Noreen >^,,^<
Hi Leah -- I appreciate your response. Cletus has been fight a FLUTD since Christmas. He's four years old and never had one before....
Leah wrote:
<< I will look at that site you posted later and write back after
viewing it (if you want me to that is).>>
I would really like your opinion if you have the time.
> >cranberry
<< I don't think it *is* necessarily acidifying. I think it does exactly what you said it does in your statement above and I believe something very similar to this was posted on another list in which I participate.>>
The cranberry then just keeps the infection at bay...if there is one. All urinalysis' done on Cletus since Dec and there have been many indicated no bacteria. Not when he was blocked or when we had the bloody urine episode and he had to be hospitalized. So if cranberry just keeps bacteria from adherring and nothing else, I don't see as it would help him. I was hoping someone would give me some proof it was acidifying.
> >The vet told me to try Vitamin C at a low dose and when I told him
I was already giving about 200mg a day, he was
> >surprised that that amount was not helping.
I will double his to start with and work my way up...
>> Of course, now there is debate over whether Vitamin C will acidify.
<<Point me to the sources where I can read up on this, 'cuz I'm not completely convinced of that.>>
I don't have a source of this information.....its been discussed here, though, thanks for answering....so far only one other post has come in on this.....
--
Noreen >^,,^<
Noreen, how's Cletus holding up?
Well, at the risk of jinxing myself, I think I'm seeing some improvement in Sam. His attitude seems better, he's looking super good, and he is peeing like a champ, in the box, and there's no strong odor like he usually has.... Here's what I've done thus far:
I've removed organ meats from his food, and in the last batch, added an extra 3/4 pound (to one 4 pound chicken) of gizzards. Forgot to add it to the grinder this time, but will just give them whole instead.
I've also added 3,000 mgs of C to the food mix, as well as 2-3 Tablespoons of ground flax seed (supposed to have nti- inflammatory properties). Sam gets 10-15 mgs of Co-Q-10 a day, as well as a teaspoon of either horsetail, uva ursi or nettle 'tea' (1/2 tsp of dried herb in 1/2 cup of near boiling water, cooled an administered via syringe - 5 cc's) I rotate thru the herbs, and give him 1-2 days a week "off".
<<The cranberry then just keeps the infection at bay...if there is one.>>
That's pretty much it. I give cranberry a few days a month "just in case". I figger if there's anything hanging out in Sam's bladder that shouldn't be there, the cranberry will eliminate the problem. Heck, I only take it myself when I feel a UTI may be brewing, not every day.
The thing w/ UTI's in cats is that they generally resolve themselves within 5 days regardless of what, if any, treatment is used. So Sam may get UTI's when he sprays, but since I'm taking the next available appointment, it's at least a couple days before he's seen. So, in theory, the UTI could have come and gone and he'd get a "no bacteria" report. I use the cranberry a s a 'benefit of the doubt' thing when his urine smells strong or his attitude changes.
> > Of course, now there is debate over whether Vitamin C
> > will acidify.
<<Point me to the sources where I can read up on this, 'cuz I'm not completely convinced of that.>>
Leah, the holistic vet who fields my diet questions told me this, and
I passed it on to the list. The nutritionist over on Vetmed said the same
thing..... What the vet said was that since C had immune enhancing properties,
it was still good to use in UTI's but that it didn't acidify. The fact
that we *seem* to have success with it in UTI's _may be_ answered in the
fact that UTI's resolve themselves so quickly.... who knows. I'll still
use it, but I don't rely on it as a urinary acidifier, myself.
-
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Vick and the kitty company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
I think sometimes we can create our own monsters with the food begging
aspect - I have done this with Giddy. I've made the mistake of letting
him get accustomed to being fed at a certain time (or at least with about
an hour of the same time) every morning and evening. My husband gets
up before I do in the morning and for a while, Giddy thought he should
be fed at that point. As hard as it was, I started ignoring him until
the time when I normally get up; gradually, he realized I was not going
to feed him at *his* set time. Now I notice when I wake up, he's
sitting there on the bed staring me in the face with that "if looks could
kill" attitude. There are times in our lives when we may not always
be able to adhere to a schedule. I think Anitra mentions this in
her book too - when she has a longer day than normal, her cats won't starve,
she feeds them when she gets
home.
I know this type of system works, because I have done quite the opposite with my d**. She never knows when she'll be fed. She doesn't bark, whine or complain if she's not fed at a certain time. She may get fed anywhere from 7:30 - 10:00 a.m. and 8:30-10:00 p.m.
Another subject: UTI treatment idea again - I picked up an issue of Natural Health today and there was a very short blurb in there that Rutgers Univ. has found that blueberries can effectvely prevent urinary tract infections. They do this in the same manner that cranberry juice helps - they contain proanthocyanidins that keep E. coli from attaching to the cells in the walls of the tract. E. coli, according to this three sentence blurb, is responsible for most UTIs. Of course, we can't always extrapolate human studies to cats and I realize that, but it's something to think about.
Leah
<<with my d**. She never knows when she'll be fed. She doesn't bark, whine or complain if she's not fed at a certain time. She may get fed anywhere from 7:30 - 10:00 a.m. and 8:30-10:00 p.m.>>
Leah, I've always done the same w/ my cats. They've all been very well-behaved and never hassled me about it until I got Ms. Pigpen the biggest monkey brat cat in the whole world! She is contantly begging for food, unlike the others. Bunny the Queen Mum gives her these pitying looks as if to say "Oh, these commoners!" LOL
Before we switched to raw, Pigpen would cry incessantly for food. Now it's only 15 mins of every hr! What a brat!
<<Another subject: UTI treatment idea again - I picked up an issue of Natural Health today and there was a very short blurb in there that Rutgers Univ. has found that blueberries can effectvely prevent urinary tract infections. They do this in the same manner that cranberry juice helps ->>
I was flipping thru Vegetarian Times and Natural Remdies at the bookstore the other day, and one of them has an article on UTIs. They also mentioned blueberries (which also have other antioxidant properties and help night vision) for UTIs. But what I found interesting was a lil blurb they had there mentioning that both cranberries and Vit C are acidifying.
In Energy Times' latest issue, they mention that Uva Ursi should not be used along w/ Vit C. I need to re-read it b/c I don't remember exactly why they recommended this - something about Uva Ursi working best w/ alkaline urine or some such. I can go check if anyone's interested.
Sandy and the mountain cats
<<(ascorbic acid) every day, the vet was very surprised. He feels that maybe Kelly is not absorbing the Vit. C and so it is not getting to his bladder. (Haven't there been discussions lately of whether C really is acidifying?>>
If anyone has the latest issue of natural Remdies (I hope it wasn't Veggie Times in which I read this), pls confirm this for me. I believe the info in that article comes from Rosemary Gladstar and/or Susan Weed. Anyway, maybe either of them has this info in their book(s). I did a web search and couldn't find any definitive answer to this but somewhere in my consciousness I seem to have it fixed that asc acid is acidifying. I'll ask a Chemistry colleague of mine about it.
<<Maybe it's not) He wants to put Kelly on an acidifier because he is very afraid Kelly will block if the crystals are not dissolved quickly. I didn't>>
I'm w/ Leah. Most imp thing right now is to get his urine back in the right Ph range. Anyone ever use Methigel? It contains methionine, which is an acidifier, right? Dunno if one can use it long-term. Maybe there are foods out there hi in methionine? My guess would be muscle meat.
<< Kelly was also getting cranberry, horsetail and eyebright (per Dr. Schwartz "4>>
Cranberry according to many articles I've read (Vick. will dig out that E. Times one asap), should be given as a preventive. It won't work during a UTI. Better to give Uva ursi during a UTI and not any other time. As for horsetail, are u planning on giving it to Sam l-term, Vick? If so, check Mary W-T's hoib booklet. If I remember correctly (have given up on getting my book back <sigh>), it sez horsetail can use kidney damage. I didn't give it to Boo b/c it is contraindicated for hi BP and CRF.
Good luck to Kelly, Sam, Cletus and other FUS cats (hope there aren't that many) <paws crossed>
Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain girl cats who ask mum - "u sure u want a boy, mama?"
Hi all -- Just ran across a rather simplified answer to FLUTD at
http://www.oocities.org/Petsburgh/Zoo/5650/flutd.html
Water -- more of it......wonder if I should give Cletus sub-q fluids since he won't drink enough????? Just kidding.....wonder if there is any chemical/physiological proof of this theory....
--
Noreen >^,,^<
Trish wrote:
<Click here: Cats Only Nutritional Supplements for Felines</A>
http://www.cats-only.com/
>>
Here's an excerpt from one of the pages - http://www.cats-only.com/ash.html I don't remember hearing about amino acids acidifying urine before. Have I just missed it or is this the missing link we've been looking for?
<begin quote>
In order for any supplement to be complete and capable of balancing
the minerals in commercial foods it must be high in some ash components.
What is important is the relative quantity of any individual component
of these minerals and the body's ability (primarily kidney) to remove excesses
of minerals. Because of the waste removal function that urine does, it
is important to understand how this works in the animal. The feline is
a carnivore and therefore consumes large amounts of amino acids naturally.
The normal feline urine is always acid in nature because excess amino acids
are excreted in the urine. Our product contains a large amount of the amino
acids methionine and lysine that will not only acidify our product but
the usual diet of the cat as well. In addition, vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
also is present and will help with the same function. Felines must have
an acid urine for optimal urinary tract health.
At least one component in ash has been incriminated in cases of Feline
Urological Syndrome (FUS). It is not entirely clear whether high concentrations
of magnesium are solely responsible for the formation of some urinary problems
or, in conjunction with neutral PH or basic PH urine, problems occur. Either
acidifying the urine or eliminating the magnesium will help the problem
but doing both appears the best choice. Therefore, it may be of some practical
use to know the actual amount of magnesium per serving of an individual
product. For example, CATS ONLY contains .01 oz. ash per serving and 28.11
mg. of magnesium. A popular cat food that we analyzed per one cup serving
contains .24 oz. ash and 1079 mg. magnesium perserving. If you would like
to know the actual ash content or magnesium content of your cat food, and
are unable to do the calculations yourself
feel free to write to us. You must include the guaranteed analysis
panel of the product for us to do the calculation.
<end quote>
--Jean, Saski the Soccer Player & That-Amber
wordlady@
Here's a couple urls that were posted on another list.....some very interesting information...
http://nss.vet.ohio-state.edu/Vm%20720/LUT.html
http://nss.vet.ohio-state.edu/Indexinfo/FoodIC.html
Noreen >^,,^<
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