Following are selected posts to Holisticat on the subject of vaccinations. There's a lot of information here, and the posts are arranged in ascending chronological order. If there is a particular word you're looking for, it's probably best to utlize the "Find in Page" function in your edit menu!

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Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 11:03:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Vick <vick@

Hi Kathy, list

<<Should I get him in for more shots? Should I leave him be?
<<<snip>>>
he's learning to hunt. But he's exposed to everything an outdoor cat can be  exposed to. To my knowledge we've not had a case of rabies here in the last  five years, but I could be wrong.>>

What shots exactly did they give him? Most likely FELV #1 and FVRCP #1, maybe rabies, but they usually want you to come back and get that w/ the  boosters.

When I had Jezebel vaccinated, the pressure at work was intense. Since she is inside only, and I am none too impressed w/ the FELV stats, I got her FVRCP #1 and then rabies a few weeks later. I never boostered the FVRCP because she battled a serious upper-respiratory something before I brought her home, and I felt that all of her mom's antibodies were used up there,
and the first vaccine would stimulate her own immune response.

Kittens are boostered because it is believed that their immune response is suppressed by maternally donated antibodies. The boosters hopefully elicit the kittens' own immune response after awhile (why we don't just wait until they are 6 months old, I'll never know!!). Anyhow, since Tommy is a big boy now, the only booster I would justify is FELV. The initial FVRCP should elicit enough of a response. Even so, I don't like the FELV booster, either....

<<If I do take him in, do we have to start over with initial shots?>>

If it has been way more than 6 weeks, they'll make you start FELV over again. They'll probably say you hafta start FVRCP over, too, but my vet said that wasn't necessary, the only vaccine that needs the 6-week timing is FELV. I would definitely vaccinate for rabies, but administer lyssin as the 'antidote' I am not near my  books, so if anyone else can explain the lyssin antidote thing for anyone who needs it, that would be very cool of you!

I feel really icky, so if I didn't make any sense, let me know. I'll take some Motrin and clarify things!

Vick and the kitties [who are 3 hours away :( ]
vick@

Hi everybody,

I posted the info my vet gave me on the aluminum salts carrier being directly linked to vaccination site sarcomas (fibrosarcomas).  It is my understanding that this only concerns the rabies and felv vacs  as they are the only ones w/ the aluminum carriers.   I "thought"  (almost positive) she said that there were felv & rabies vacs w/out the aluminum carriers, so I surmised those would be the ones to get if you had to vaccinate.  Then George came along and started eating bats' heads
(two!!!) so I looked into this non-aluminum vac. & my other vet says they don't make 'em w/out that aluminum carrier and even though the researchers know that's what's causing the Vac. site sarcomas, it'll be years before new rabies and felv vacs w/out aluminum come on the market because of testing etc.

Susan
katseven@pcsia.com

<<And if I decide to get the rabies I'll make sure it doesn't have the aluminum carrier.>>

<I think I missed something that's been discussed in the past.  What's this  about an aluminum carrier?  I need to be more well informed before I question my vet about this.>

<<I "thought"  (almost positive) she said that there were felv & rabies vacs w/out the aluminum carriers, so I surmised those would be the ones to get if you had to vaccinate.  Then George came along and started eating bats' heads (two!!!) so I looked into this non-aluminum vac. & my other vet says they don't make 'em w/out that aluminum carrier and even though the
researchers know that's what's causing the Vac. site sarcomas, it'll be years before new rabies and felv vacs w/out aluminum come on the market because of testing etc.>>

I believe there are vaccines on the market w/o the aluminum carrier. There's a website with extensive information on vaccination site fibrosarcoma at http://www.oocities.org/~kremersark/newhope.html I've corresponded with the person, Jeff Kremmer, who put the site together and he told me that his vet in St. Petersburg, FL uses these non-aluminum vaccines.

It's too bad the veterinary community doesn't have a better system of communication on these things.

Carole and the "furry kids".

Hi Carole,

<< I believe there are vaccines on the market w/o the aluminum carrier.  There's a website with extensive information on vaccination site  fibrosarcoma at  http://www.oocities.org/~kremersark/newhope.html  I've corresponded with the person, Jeff Kremmer, who put the site  together and he told me that his vet in St. Petersburg, FL uses these  non-aluminum vaccines.>>

Thanks for this site!  There is so much info and Sylvia's story was heartbreaking.  I am seriously concerned about the sarcomas.
Did Jeff happen to mention the names of these vaccines?  I would like to request that my vet get these in before I consent to getting the vaccinations done.

Donna

Hey Donna, everyone-

<<My two are strictly indoors.  There should be very low risk of them  getting anything.
 <<snip>>
I had heard that the cats need the 1 year boosters because it sort of  "completes the series" that they get as kittens and brings their  system up to full immunity.  I don't know how true that is though.>>

I know that some holistic vets are still advising the first years' booster vaccines, well spaced out. That's, to me, a personal choice based on risk factors. For example, if I were still working at the cat clinic, and was bringing home lotsa germies daily, I might consider vaccinating for FVRCP every 3-4 years. Maybe I'd add FeLV every 4-5 years. But those re big maybes, that I would base on my own cats' health.

Here's my experience w/ vaccines:

Skippy and Sam both got everything when they were kittens, and got boostered in one year. They went four years without
further vaccines- and that's when I thought I was being a bad owner and couldn't afford yearlies :). I added Max in Jan of '97, and had to get Skip and Sam current on rabies to do so. I let the vet's office talk me into vaccinating for distemper (FVRCP) too, becuz Max would undoubtedly bring a URI home from the shelter.

The subsequent illnesses Skip and Sam faced are what got me started on holistic cat care. Unvaccinated Max sniffled and
sneezed, but kept eating and pulled thru w/o any help from me. Vaccinated Skippy and Sam ran super high fevers, stopped
eating and drinking and needed medical help to get thru. Sam needed sub-q fluids, and Skippy suffered nerve spasms. It was awful, Needless to say, they will never receive that  vaccine again!

I got Max his first FVRCP a few weeks later and never had it even boostered in 4 weeks as you're told to do. When I added
Jezebel this January, she had spent over a week at the clinic w/ a fever of unknown origin that broke 105 several times. She was recovering when I brought her home to 3 cats who were due for their annual FVRCP booster. No-one got sick. Jezebel received her first FVRCP vaccination a couple months later, and her rabies a month after that.

<< The FelV vaccine is one of the baddies in re: to vaccine-induced  fibrosarcomas, too. Honestly, I didn't even vaccinate Max or Jezebel  for it at all.>>

< Vick, I am tending to agree with you here.  Corky and Sasha have both  had their kitten series and now are coming up on the 1 year boosters.  The FeLV is important to me because many years ago I lost 4 cats to  leukemia within a 2 week period.  It was devastating to me.  So when  the FeLV vaccine came out I promised myself that my future kitties  would be protected.  Maybe that's not quite rational now, but the  feelings are still there.  However, after reading the Sarcoma site that Carole posted, I am beginning to rethink all this.>

I am so sorry about your loss :( I can understand why you would view the FeLV vaccine as a good thing!

Like I said, I didn't vaccinate 2 of my 4 for FeLV at all, and it doesn't worry me. To acquire FeLV, they would hafta have some pretty decent, prolonged contact with a FeLV positive cat. There were actually techs at work so brainwashed that they chastised me for working w/ the FeLV cats and then going home to unvaccinated cats. Now, when I add new cats, I will test for FeLV and FIV and will add only negative cats. IMHO, that makes the risk minimal and the need for vaccinating nonexistent.

Just some more, long-winded, thoughts from one who views vaccines as the root of all evil :)
-
Vick, Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Having watched six out of seven vaccinated kittens stop eating, stop playing and do nothing but sleep, and watching one of the seven succumb so badly that she died, I'm not going to argue with you at all. (This was the FCVRP vac)

These kittens were eight weeks old when they received their vaccines and it was just awful to see what happened to them.

Since then, I have had a lot of second thoughts about my vaccination protocol.

Johanna

Hey ya'll-

Have ya'll seen the following site? http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/vafs1297.html (the article is from 1997, but I had never noticed it in print before)

The American Association of Feline Practitioners (AAFP) is recommending a 3 year interval on FVRCP shots, rabies as mandated by law (but they are urging states to go every three years) and FeLV and FIP vaccs only as per risk factors.

Of course, they still want Rabies and FVRCP done as kittens and boostered a year later, and THEN every 3 years. But boy- what a big step!!
--
Vick, Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel

Hello, List:

If anyone is interested in recent findings as regards vaccination protocols, please have a look at the following two sites:
    http://cfainc.org/articles/health-vaccination-guidelines.html#protocol
and
     http://web.vet.cornell.edu/public/fhc/vaccinesbr.htm

Johanna
Kilada Burmese

hey all-

picked this up from the DVM Newsmagazine site, and thought it was worth getting out. Of special note: "25 percent of the tumors in their dataset developed in less than three months from the time of vaccination"

the DVM Newsmagazine site is at: http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/

USP presents its data on vaccine-associated feline sarcomas

Estes, Colo. -- In October, E. Kathryn Meyer, VMD, of the U.S. Pharmacopeia Veterinary Practitioners Reporting Program,       presented a summary of the data USP has collected on vaccine- associated feline sarcomas to a meeting of the Veterinary Cancer Society.

As of August 7, 1998, 169 reports of suspected  vaccine-associated feline sarcomas resided in the U.S. Pharmacopeia's (USP) database. Meyers says . The USP suggests that the profession re-evaluate recommendations to wait at least three months before biopsy.

Read the presentation "Vaccine-Associated Feline Sarcomas: A summary of USP Data" at:     http://www.usp.org/practrep/vpr_speech.htm

Practitioners can assist the research community in getting to the bottom of VAFS by participating in Dr. Glenna Gobar's online
practitioner survey at: http://sarcoma.ucdavis.edu

The Vaccine-Associated Feline Sarcoma Task Force recently announced larger grants and an extended grant deadline for its
1998 research funding: http://www.avma.org/vafstf/default.htm

--
Vick and company: Skippy, Sam, Max and Jezebel
.... AND Jake the foster Aussie

Hi all

Noreen, I don't think there's any problem mixing a few drops of the flower essence into a different bottle. It sure helps to stretch them, and they're pretty expensive. I do this to make particular remedies, as well. Kashmir's last one included Holly, Impatiens and Rescue. I also just mixed up a bottle for a friend of mine that included the homeopathic Calms and some RR. Which
leads to your next question about homeopathics.

Is this detox product a homeopathic? No matter, it's generally okay to mix a flower essence with another remedy. My homeopath (human) does this, not in the same bottle, but always prescribes a flower essence along with the homeopathic. It is my understanding (perhaps limited -- I have so much to learn!) that flower essences will not interfere with other medications.
Now whether or not other medications will interfere with the FE's may be open to debate, I just don't know. But I do think it's just fine to use them together. If you're giving this product specifically for the vaccs, I'd wait until after the shot, say when you get them home from the vet. What's in the detox stuff? I'm very curious. Is it a combo homeopathic? Do you have a Materia Medica? If it's a combo remedy my personal feeling is that you'll probably want to check out the matching symptoms before giving it to the cats, esp. if you're giving more than one dose. Is the product specifically for vaccinations? Or for general illness? Why are you supposed to give it when the cat is sleepiest? Do they expect that cats will react? Questions,
questions....

Emily, I personally could probably be more careful when I handle homeopathics and fe's. I do really try with homeopathics, never touch them, etc. But with essences my results have been the same whether or not I handle them first. The cats get them wherever they'll take them, and if that means I have to put it in my hand first, so be it. Otherwise it's in their food, or sometimes I'm lucky enough to catch them unawares and dose them directly. Care and respect are good ideas, of course, but I'm usually a little on the careless side with FEs and my results are the same.

Take care all
Kathy and the cats, who are intrigued by the first real big snow -- yay!!