Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:38:30
From: Leah Knipp <lknipp@

Hi everyone,

I know most of you could care less whether I agree with Sandy or not <G>, but she makes some very good points here:

<<So u could keep them on hand and if any of your kitties exhibits the symptoms associated w/ those remedies, u can administer them/it.>>

Routinely administering a homeo remedy after a vaccine is not the way to go in the true classical mode of homeopathy.  As she mentions above, the key word is *if* kitty exhibits the symptoms ----

><<Newtons P25 Detoxifer contains: Bryonia, Chelidonium, Berberus Vulg, Nux vom 10x, Taraxacum, Solidago, Juniperus, Carduus mar, Carduus ben, Cynara scolylmus 3x, alcohol 15%. >>>

<<I have serious reservations about this Detoxifier thingie from Newton.  Just what is it detoxifying, and how?   Other than Nux, the other remedies are not "clearing" remedies that I know of.  10 remedies is a lot, even in a combo.  This company I've noticed doesn't give potencies for each of the remedies which alone makes me suspicious. >>

I agree 100 % with this assessment - 10 remedies is mucho for a combo and I will not administer a homeo remedy either to my pets or myself if I have no idea what potency it contains.

Sandy or Nancy, I'll let you take the ball and run with it explaining a proving.  I could do it, but you both do such a nice job of explaining homeopathy <BG>.

<I meant to say when I sent in my question about detox aid for my kitten after her shots--I haven't done anything with homeopathics yet so that would not be my first choice--I don't have any experience at matching symptoms, etc.  It all seems so complex! >

Leslie,

I have read and know that some people use an herbal tincture for detox after shots.  Tasha's Herbs makes one called Detoxifier; Animals' Apawthecary also makes a detox blend, but it may be more targeted to allergies - it's called Detox/Allergy Blend.  Mary, is there a different one you might recommend from your formulations?   I could be wrong here, but I don't think the herbs would have the long lasting effects that an unnecessary homeo remedy could produce.  They would do their job and be out
of the system.

re:  nosodes

In spite of many people using these as an alternative to vaccs, their efficacy has *not* been proven (please give me evidence if it has), except in one isolated experiment with kennel cough and many of the d**s were also given vaccs. during the trial.  Take a look at the following web site and there's an article on vaccinations: http://www.altvetmed.com

Leah

From: CEANORTH@aol.com
<<I was wondering what people on the list do as far as giving vaccinations.  Do you give kittens their first vaccines- if so what components do you cover and how many do you give if any? >>

The current holistic protocol is either to not vaccinate at all, or to give one panleukopenia vaccination (intra nasal) at 14+ weeks. The respiratory vaccinations are not recommended for several reasons. One, cats usually don't die from URI and two, the vaccines are not 100% effective. The only vaccine that provides lifetime immunity is panleukopenia and possibly rabies. Rabies is one of the more dangerous vaccines, but, some states have laws that require rabies. A rabies vaccine should be given in the  right rear leg, not between the shoulder blades.

<<Also, I would like some imput for a friend, from the list as to whether or not give a healthy 3 year old adult cat that has not been vaccinated since she got him at 7 months old. He could have been vaccinated prior though. He recently come home with an upper respiratory infection from the neighbors cats. He is fine now, but she is wondering if she should boost him? She has not boosted him as she feels that dogs and cats are over vaccinated. >>

So much for the protection of URI vaccines. If the cat is recovered, leave well enough alone. From recovering from the URI on his own, he has developed his own natural immunity. Much better than the artificial immunity offered by vaccines.

Addition of Vitamin C to his diet would probably be beneficial at this time.

Michelle
BLAKKATZ Cattery

Kathy Buhler had posted this sometime ago; hope it helps.  Oh, also found another site w/ the Cornell protocol (I think)
http://www.cah.com/library/felvacc.html
___
Hi all

I thought for sure someone had posted a long list of vaccination web sites but can't find it anywhere. So I did another search and came up with these. If they're duplicates I apologize!

Take care
Kathy and the cats

[Archive ed. note: you'll just hafta copy and paste these to your browser window :)]

Jean Dodds Letter re: vaccines  http://www.dclink.com/mastiff/rpvaccin.htm

Vaccinations: Links to Information  http://www.nwga.com/members/crchat/vaccinations.htm

Over Vaccination Issues  http://www.europa.com/~dshecklr/Vaccinations2.html

Resources (A very comprehensive list of holistic animal care resources)  http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/prresourc.html

AltVetMed Vaccinations  http://www.altvetmed.com/vaccine.html

The Abysinnian Homepage (good links!)  http://www.serve.com/BatonRouge/medical.htm

Article by Larry Bernstein DVM  http://www.holisticvet.com/handouts/hpmaster.htm

 Vaccinations (dogs, allopathic)  http://www.allpets.com/alldogs/clinic/health/prevent/vaccinat.html

NRBN Cat (not vaccine related, but a list of natural cat breeders and  they can be contacted for info)
http://pages.prodigy.net/goosebay/cat.html

To Vaccinate or Not: the Homeopathic approach  (people)  http://www.arnica.com/homeo/vaccine.html

Vaccination: a new perspective  http://www1.mhv.net/~dca/articles/Vaccination_-_A_New_Perspe.html

Cat Vaccines (allopathic)  http://www.vetinfo.com/catvacc.html

Vaccination (people)  http://www.medicinegarden.com/homeopathy/VACCINATION.html

<<What effects are caused by vaccinosis?>>

Sorry I took so long to respond -- I knew that Jillian's question was resolved and needed to look up some more complete answers than my own experience.  Celeste Yarnall has a long section on vaccinations/vaccinosis in "Natural Cat Care" and quotes Pitcairn,"'The effect of vaccination, besides the physical effects of stimulating an antibody response is to establish a chronic disease . . . resulting in mental, emotional, and physical changes that can, in some cases, be a permanent condition.'"  She continues to list symptoms including "laziness or inaction; finicky or ravenous appetite; poor grooming; hair ball vomiting or cough; cystitis; nephritis; inflammatory bowel disease; chronic upper respiratory infections; increased sexual desire; aggression; destructiveness; sucking on wool; excessive licking; seizures."

Obviously, if a cat has one of these symptoms it doesn't necessarily mean she/he has vaccinosis.  My Megan, for example, was always ravenous; vomited hair balls often; licked herself until she had bloocy bald spots; and was extremely aggressive.  She also had suffered a seizure at the time of her vaccinations (which were given incorrectly as well.) She responded beautifully to thuja and the symptoms are gone, except that she still really loves her food!

Hope this helps.

susan (the lower case one)
catgrrrl@

Lee, some other remedies that can be appropriate for vaccination-induced probs are Pulsatilla, Lachesis, Silicea, and Sulphur.

Check out brief remedy profiles at this site: http://www.windflowers.com/wind/products/homeo/remedy/Sulphur.html

Just substitute the other remedies in place of Sulphur w/ the rest of the URL the same, and u can see profiles for the other 3 to see if any of the 4 fit Peaches.

Hope she feels better soon.  Meanwhile if u have Ledum tincture (ointment has other icky stuff so is not meant for ingestion) u can dilute and apply on the sore spot.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

Lee, just checked and Juliette De Bairacli Levy recommends appying lemon juice on the vaccination spot.  Hmm..cats won't like that too much but maybe u can dilute it and cover w/ a t-shirt or something.  Course she then has some weird regimenn of watered milk and honey as part of a 2 day detox <eww>.  Yuck.

Another option I've read before is to give the nosode for the vaccine that caused the problem.  In this case, it was the 3-in-1 so u'd have to give 3 nosodes.

Just tossing out ideas in the hopes that something helps.  Hugs to the Peach:)

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

On Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:07:17 EST Jnglecats writes:
<< Sandy, the url you gave me for the homeo remedies didn't work - would  you mind checking it?  No hurry, tho - she is feeling better, she ate this a.m.  >>

Try this one, Lee: http://www.windflowers.com/wind/products/homeo/Remedies/Pulsatilla.html

Good to hear she is feeling better.  If u go by the HFS, u can always sneak a peek at an MM there to get a more complete picture of the remedies.

Sandy, owned and operated by the mountain cats

With the concern about the rabies vaccine and fibrosarcoma that has  recently been discussed, and the fact that some of us have no choice because of laws or risk factors, I thought the following information might be helpful.  The author has given his permission for me to post it here.

<< Dear feline friends,
We just wanted to let all of our feline friends know that we have just updated our dear girls web "effort of education" linked below with information relating to a new feline rabies vaccine. Since "inflammation" and vaccine "adjuvants" are two of the "suspects" in the formation of vaccine assosciated sarcomas, this new vaccine was developed with the hope of reducing the number of cases of VAS. We were FINALLY able to get a brochure from Merial, the manufacture of this vaccine, and we have updated our dear girls "Timely Tidbits" page with this information. We encourage you to print out this new information and discuss it with  your veterinarian, so that they and you will be able to make the very best health care decisions for your furry family.

http://www.oocities.org/~kremersark/newhope.html - Sylvia's Journey of New Hope >>

For the question about the panleucopenia, herpes virus and calici virus vaccine....I believe that was the one that caused his
cat's fibrosarcoma.

Carole
csime@

It is no longer necessary to give yearly vaccinations, they should be given every three years. Rabies should be given in the right rear leg, not between the shoulder blades. If you have adult cats, I wouldn't worry about the other vaccines (rhino, calci, panleukopenia). As you now know, the respiratory vaccines are essentially worthless. A panluekopenia vaccine given at 14+ weeks should provide lifetime immunity. The only thing you need to worry about is rabies if it is required by law.

Michelle Bernard
BLAKKATZ Cattery

In a message dated 2/10/99 9:50:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, njjohnson@ writes:

<<  The other vaccines have their own risks too - "live" vaccines can often cause symptoms of the disease they are supposed to prevent,  and killed vaccines are not as effective and carry more risk of problems at the injection site.  The worst problem I ever had with my cats was the  result of vaccination - a serious outbreak of Upper respiratory disease. >>

The body's defenses are designed to fight invaders through the mucosal tissues (eyes, nose, mouth, etc.).  When a modified live vaccine is injected into the body, there are no defenses at that point.  That's why you can see some adverse effects.  A killed vaccine is much safer.  The very best to use is the occular-nasal types so the virus gets introduced through the mucous membranes, a much more natural route.

Elaine Crews, N.D.

Is the ill effects attributable to vaccines. Any vaccine can cause it, not just boosters. There's lots of vaccination information on my site.

Here's an article on Vaccinosis:

Reprinted with permission from the September/October 1992 issue of Tiger Tribe

"Vaccinosis - the malaise (fever, muscular aches, bone pain, prostration, etc.) as the result of being vaccinated." from A Dictionary of Homeopathic Medical Terminology.

Consider this scenario: You take your five-year-old cat to the vet to have his teeth cleaned.  The vet suggests that, while the animal is there, they give all the yearly shots: the three-in-one, the feline leukemia booster, and the rabies vaccination.  So, while still under the effects of the anesthesia, your cat's immune system is barraged with this multiple-virus "protection" program.  For weeks afterwards, the cat "doesn't seem the same", but you can't quite tell why.

Seven months later, the cat develops a tumor in his chest, and within a month it grows so rapidly that the cat has to be put to sleep.  While the conventional veterinary community might protest any claim that there is a connection between the vaccinations and the tumor, something inside you knows differently.

What a vaccination is supposed to do is mimic the process of disease itself. When a weakened (attenuated) version of a virus is injected into the body, the immune system is "tricked" into producing antibodies, the T-cells and B-cells that protect the body against a particular disease.  If the animal is exposed to the virus in the future, the body remembers the virus and responds with  the appropriate antibodies.

John Fudens, DVM, says that he does not have a problem with the concept of vaccination.  "The problem I have is with the method.  An injection is a totally unnatural and artificial procedure.

"No disease, short of being bitten by a rabid dog, is injected by needle. What happens in this case is that the disease totally bypasses the natural mechanism that is set up by the mouth and the respiratory system to resist most communicable diseases."

Richard Moskowitz, M.D., in his remarkable article, "The Case Against Immunization," carries this observation further by pointing out that the creation of circulating antibodies "is only one, and by no means the most important" of the mechanisms by which the body handles a viral attack.  In fact, he says, if we vaccinate, we have short-circuited very important primary responses to disease and have "accomplished what the entire immune system seems to have evolved in order to prevent: we have placed the virus directly into the blood, and given it free and immediate access to the major immune organs and tissues, without any obvious way of getting rid of it."

Also, what vaccination protocols fail to take into consideration is the unique state of an animal's immune system.  We can never know how long whatever protection is gained from the vaccination will last or even if it will be effective.  The only true immunity occurs when an animal gets a disease and survives.  It is then immune to that particular disease for life.

Dr. Fudens points out that "with the natural disease process, the virus or bacteria doesn't include the antibiotics or the fungicides that are used to protect the vaccine against bacterial contamination.  And it doesn't include aluminum sulfate, mercuric oxide, or any of the chemical substrates that are used to carry the virus particles into the body in the injection procedure.

"And certainly you don't have the multitude of viruses coming in as one group or one entity.  You pick them up one at a time.  So when you have four, five, six or seven viruses, it's a totally unnatural process."

Dr. Fudens prefers to stimulate the immune system to produce antibodies with the use of homeopathic nosodes, disease substances that are diluted to the point where only the "energy" of the disease is left.  "It still accomplishes the same thing," he says, "but you don't have the other contaminants which cause all the types of damage we see."

Dr. Fudens, who has practiced veterinary medicine for over twenty-five years, says that the worst reactions to vaccinations he sees are to the feline leukemia vaccine.

"These animals will come in with severely depressed immune systems.  They will actually mimic the disease they were vaccinated for.  I vaccinated with the leukemia vaccination when it first came out and I can't tell you how many cats came back and I'd swear they had leukemia.

"Every skin problem you see is due to vaccinations, without fail.  Later on in life, arthritic situations and degenerative spinal diseases are the result of vaccinations.  And I am convinced that FUS in cats is also vaccination-related.

"The rabies vaccination in dogs and cats causes so many problems it isn't funny.  It causes personality changes, skin changes, damages the thyroid and endocrine systems.  It lowers the immune system tremendously, and after that, of course, the animal becomes fair game for just about any disease."

According to Dr. Fudens, cats, as a species, are more susceptible and sensitive than dogs to the unnatural effects of procedures like vaccination. "The cat is a fine and sensitive animal because of its protein and nutritional requirements.  The more strict your requirements for a certain level of life and health, the more susceptible you are to conditions that would  damage or change it.  The cat is magnificent in many respects, but it is also very vulnerable.  It can only withstand a minimum level of insults until the immune system breaks down."

In an article published in the August 1985 Prevention Magazine, Richard Pitcairn, DVM, said "The more I learn about the nature of the immune system, the more concerned I am about the increasing number of vaccine viruses we are giving animals and possible repercussions that may result."

Five years later, at a workshop on Chronic Diseases in Raymond, Maine, Dr. Pitcairn seemed even more emphatic about the effects of vaccinations:  "Another big reason for the increase in Psora [the homeopathic term for the disease which underlies all chronic illness], besides the allopathic drugs suppressing disease, is the use of vaccinations.  I think that's the reason so many diseases are coming out at their base to be auto-immune dysfunction. They [the vaccines] hit it [the immune system] hard, they disorient it, confuse it, and it starts reacting wrongly."

In addition, Dr. Pitcairn has observed the reaction of many animals to the homeopathic remedy Thuja, often used to counteract negative reactions to vaccinations in both people and animals.

"Thuja causes improvement in so many animals it makes you wonder what we're doing with this vaccination stuff."

In addition to seeing the side effects of vaccinations experienced by individual animals, many homeopaths question whether or not conventional vaccinations are producing a population-wide suppression of disease that has serious implications for the future health of all creatures.

What is clear, according to Jeffrey Levy, DVM, is that a pattern exists Where we see the elimination of one disease (feline distemper for example, or smallpox in humans) followed by the emergence of a worse disease (feline leukemia for cats, AIDS for humans).  While one can place any kind of interpretation one wants on these facts, says Levy, the pattern is quite clear.

In responding to the claim that the side-effects of vaccinations are a necessary evil for the greater good of society, Dr. Levy states "It's not the greater good.  You're protecting the individuals artificially, and in doing so degrading the health of the population at large."

Richard Moskowitz, in the essay previously mentioned, seems to support Levy's assertion: "At the bottom, I have always felt that the attempt to eradicate entire microbial species from the biosphere must inevitably upset the balance of nature in fundamental ways we can as yet scarcely imagine.

"The fact is that we have been taught to accept vaccination as a sort of involuntary communion, a sacrament of our own participation in the unrestricted growth of scientific and industrial technology, utterly heedless of the long-term consequences to the health of our species, let alone to the balance of nature as a whole."

While Dr. Levy recommends the use of homeopathic nosodes to his clients, he says that there are limitations to vaccinating even with these side-effect-free remedies.  "The nosodes are effective and safe, but what they are doing essentially is putting a band-aid over a susceptibility.  Somewhere down the line you are going to have to deal with that susceptibility in one disease
form or another.

"So, from my perspective, the alternative to using nosodes is to treat the cat constitutionally [the use of single remedies that match the total symptom picture of the chronic or acute state of health].  When you do this, you improve the immunity, resistance to disease, and so forth.  Basically, it offers the same and perhaps greater protection than the nosodes, but it
does it from the inside out, rather than pasting a band aid over the top."

Mitchell Fleisher, M.D., in a recent letter to Yoga Journal, would seem to support the same perspective: "The vast majority of the professional classical homeopathic community does not advise the use of homeopathic or allopathic vaccines in the long-term prevention of communicable diseases.  Rather, professional homeopaths would prescribe a single, specific remedy, based upon
the totality of the individual's symptoms ... that is intended to strengthen the immune system and assist the defense mechanism in overcoming disease."

The letter goes on to point out that there is a great deal of evidence for homeopathy's ability to handle viral epidemics.  During the 19th century, homeopathy enjoyed a surge of popularity when it was found to be extremely effective in dealing with the epidemic diseases that spread throughout the country.  In fact, during a cholera epidemic in Cincinnati in 1849, only 3 percent of homeopathic patients died, compared to 48 to 60 percent of the conventionally treated patients.

Dr. Levy points out that if given immediately after exposure to a known disease, nosodes can prevent the development of clinical disease.  Of course, we are often unaware when our companions are exposed to diseases.  But Dr. Levy offers hope: "Viral diseases such as feline leukemia, feline infectious peritonitis ... are usually incurable with conventional medical treatment (antibiotics, steroids, etc.).  However, they frequently respond very quickly and favorably to homeopathic treatment."

Deciding not to vaccinate or to use the homeopathic nosodes can be difficult.  W. Jean Dodds, DVM, has begun studies on the effectiveness of nosodes, funded in part by the American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association.  Hopefully, some solid evidence that these remedies work will Give people alternatives to the legally required conventional vaccines.

But of course, even the nosodes, as free from side-effects as they are, do not guarantee absolute freedom from disease.  Only a perfectly health creature, human or animal, can consider this possibility.

So making a decision implies taking more responsibility for your cat's health.  Such responsibility will probably involve nutritional support, as well as alternative methods of dealing with viral and bacterial infections, should they arise.

If you give all the vaccinations a conventional vet suggests and your cat develops a tumor, certainly no one is going to blame you.  "You did all you could" would probably be the standard condolence.  Perhaps some might blame all the pollution in our environment.

But we may be looking in the wrong place for the substance of this pollution.  Perhaps, as has often been the case, "the enemy is us."  With our pride in science's ability to do better than nature, we may just have created another Frankenstein that lurches beyond our control.

CONSIDER BEFORE YOU VACCINATE:
1.       If you vaccinate with conventional vaccines, don't allow your vet to use anything but a killed vaccine (however, this option may not always be available).  Modified live vaccines are considered the most dangerous by experts in immunology.  They have the ability to replicate and then mutate the body and are banned in Scandinavian countries.

2.        Although it might be less expensive, do not vaccinate for several diseases at once.  The rabies vaccine, especially, should be given separately from other vaccines.

3.       If you vaccinate conventionally, consider using homeopathic remedies to counteract any potential adverse affects from the conventional vaccines. Jeff Levy, DVM, recommends that the appropriate nosode (made form the disease you are vaccinating for) be given immediately after the vaccination.  The next day give Thuja 30c, followed one week later by Sulphur 6X for one week.  In most states the only "required" vaccination is rabies.  The appropriate nosode for this would be Lyssin 30c.

4.       Don't vaccinate for feline leukemia.  Dr. Levy has pointed out that there is a great deal of evidence that this vaccine is both dangerous and ineffective.

5.       Don't vaccinate if an animal is in poor health, pregnant, under-going surgery, or especially when also receiving a corticosteroid injection for allergies.

6.       If you decide to use the nosodes, you will need to contact a veterinarian who uses homeopathy in his/her practice.  While most homeopathic remedies are available over-the-counter, the nosodes are available only by prescription.

RESOURCES

  "The Case Against Immunizations" by Richard Moskowitz, M.D. Reprinted from the Journal of the American Institution of Homeopathy and available from the National Center for Homeopathy.

  "A Shot in the Dark" by Richard Leviton.  Yoga Journal, May/June 1992.  If what medical historian Harris Coulter says in this article is true, we could be at the edge of an immunological abyss.

  The Immunization Decision: A Guide for Parents by Randall Neustaedter. 1990, North Atlantic Books.  Available from the National Center for Homeopathy.