Verfahren gegen Mumia Abu-Jamal

IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA

Philadelphia, Pa., June 22, 1982

Courtroom 253, City Hall

Before: HONORABLE ALBERT F. SABO, J. and Jury

Page 2.

(Court convened at 11:10 o'clock a.m.)

(The following took place in open court in the presence of the jury:)

MR. McGILL: Good morning, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may we see you at side bar, please?

THE COURT: Yes.

(A side bar conference was held on the
record with the defendant present as follows:)

THE COURT: What's your problem, Mr. Jackson?

MR. JACKSON: Mr. Jamal wanted to --

THE DEFENDANT: I wanted to address you before the jury came in.

THE COURT: I'm sorry. You're not addressing me now.

THE DEFENDANT: I can't talk to you, Judge?

THE COURT: No, not now.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, I attempted to

Page 3.

stop the jury from coming in.

THE COURT: Not now. If he has something to say he can say it to you later, you. I'm sorry. We have a witness on the stand. You're going to proceed.

THE DEFENDANT: There's no one on the stand now.

THE COURT: It's ten after 11:00. This courtroom was supposed to start --

MR. JACKSON: As Your Honor knows, I just got the notes of testimony. Until five minutes ago I was reviewing the notes.

THE COURT: What is his problem?

MR. JACKSON: Judge, he wants to speak about it.

THE COURT: What is his problem?

MR. JACKSON: It's with respect to his right of self-representation.

THE COURT: I've already ruled on that.

MR. JACKSON: I understand that, Judge.

THE COURT: I've already ruled. I am

Page 4.

not going to rule anymore --

THE DEFENDANT: Judge --

THE COURT: -- on things I have already ruled on.

THE DEFENDANT: -- I cannot address you?

THE COURT: No. If it's on what I already ruled on I'm not going to go over the sane thing over and over again.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I want to talk to you.

THE COURT: Come on.

(Side bar conference ended.)

THE COURT: Mr. Jamal, I told you I will not talk to you. I want you to sit down.

THE DEFENDANT: Can I address you, Judge?

THE COURT: No, you may not.

THE DEFENDANT: Why can't I, Judge?

THE COURT: Take the jury out.

(The following took place in open court out of the presence of the jury:)

Page 5.

THE COURT: Mr. Jamal, I told you once before I am not going to rule on questions on which I've already ruled. We are now in the process of trying this case here in this court room. I don't want those motions again. I've ruled on them once. You have exceptions to them and that's it.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, the point I wanted to make was that I wanted to address you before the jury came in.

THE COURT: I don't want to hear anything from you. Your attorney is addressing you and he's the only one I'm going to speak to.

THE DEFENDANT: He's not representing me.

THE COURT: I'm telling you unless you sit down and behave yourself --

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I am not being disruptive.

THE COURT: You are. You are preventing me from proceeding, with this --

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I am not. I instructed your court clerk --

Page 6.

THE COURT: Don't instruct my court clerk.

THE DEFENDANT: -- Mr. Jackson --

THE COURT: We're supposed to start at 9:30 --

THE DEFENDANT: I have been waiting for him to speak to me.

THE COURT: If you want to bring it up later on in the trial, some other time, but not now.

THE DEFENDANT: Can I speak to you, Judge?

THE COURT: No, you cannot.

THE DEFENDANT: The jury is not here. I am not disrupting --

THE COURT: I am not going to waste time any further.

THE DEFENDANT: I'm not wasting time, either.

THE COURT: Yes, you are.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I am not wasting your time.

THE COURT: You're wasting the time

Page 7.

of the jury, this Court, everybody.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I've been waiting for you to come out here. I've been waiting to talk to Mr. Jackson.

THE COURT: I've been waiting patiently in there for you to get ready. I am not going to wait any longer.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge --

THE COURT: I am not going to rule on any questions I told you I've already ruled on.

THE DEFENDANT: Again, I have not even addressed any question.

THE COURT: You told me, your attorney tells me you're talking about your representation.

THE DEFENDANT: That's right, Judge.

THE COURT: I've already ruled.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge --

THE COURT: I am not going to hear anymore about it. If you do not permit me to proceed with this trial right now I'm going to have you removed from this courtroom.

THE DEFENDANT: You can do what you

Page 8.

wish to do.

THE COURT: That's exactly what I'm going to do.

THE DEFENDANT: Excuse me --

MR. McGILL: Would Your Honor consider, at least at this point, even though Your Honor has ruled very clearly on the subject, to have at least Mr. Jamal say what he has to say?

THE COURT: I've already ruled.

MR. McGILL: I know.

THE COURT: I don't want to hear the questions again.

MR. McGILL: Perhaps that would avoid --

THE COURT: How could it avoid anything? We can do this forever.

MR. McGILL: Perhaps if you make it clear at this point, Your Honor --

THE COURT: I can't make it any clearer. He knows what it is. He knows what I said.

MR. McGILL: I'm very much aware of

Page 9.

that.

THE COURT: I've ruled and he's deliberately trying to bring that up time and time again just to delay this trial.

THE DEFENDANT: I'm glad you know what I'm thinking, Judge, before I say --

THE COURT: I know. I know. I've been around long enough.

THE DEFENDANT: I've already said --

MR. McGILL: It is true. You're making your judgment as to what he said on what was represented to you. Is that correct?

MR. JACKSON: I will point out to the Court I have not represented to the Court the specifics --

THE COURT: Let me say this: You are representing -- I don't want to hear from him.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor --

THE COURT: Okay. Just a minute. You want to make a motion up here? You come up here and make the motion.

MR. JACKSON: Fine, Judge. Your

Page 10.

Honor, my motion would be that Mr. Jamal have an opportunity to address the Court on an issue that I believe Mr. Jamal will articulate.

THE COURT: I will not allow him to address the Court. If you have a motion you want to make on his behalf, make it. You've got a motion, make it.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I think under the circumstances, again, the jury is not present --

THE COURT: I don't care if the jury is present or not. You're his attorney, I ruled on that. You make the motion. He has a motion he told you, you make it.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

MR. JACKSON: May it please the Court, Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Jamal I would again bring to the Court's attention Mr. Jamal's request that, if not demand, that he be permitted to represent himself. The occasion of Your Honor removing Mr. Jamal from representing himself was a result of what

Page 11.

Your Honor considered to be obstruction. I suggest to the Court that indeed Mr. Jamal'S excitement, Mr. Jamal's zealousness and aggressiveness in representing himself is a result of his life being on the line in this case.

I believe that under the circumstances of his aggressiveness with which he has spoken to this Court with regard to his activities in this court is solely and exclusively as a result of what he perceives to be a bias and prejudice within the system and, specifically, in Your Honor.

We have, of course, taken the issue of his self-representation and my withdrawal from this case to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court. Justice McDermott has of course ruled that I am to remain in this case as counsel to Mr. Jamal. Justice McDermott has a history, particularly in the case of Sue Africa, where in fact Justice McDermott has indicated his bias and prejudice against Sue Africa and other MOVE members and MOVE sympathizers. For that

Page 12.

reason, Your Honor, Mr. Jamal feels, and very strongly, that Justice McDermott's ruling should not and is not final on the issue of his request for self-representation.

Mr. Jamal would further request that Your Honor delay this proceeding so that a Federal District Court may occasion itself to take up the issue of Mr. Jamal's right to self representation.

If Your Honor would permit Mr. Jamal, myself, other counsel to assist him in the drafting of a petition to file in the Federal District Court so that he would have issue decided by what he considers to be an impartial and unbiased judiciary. For those reasons he would ask that Your Honor delay this proceeding or stay this proceeding so that he can do that.

In addition, while that matter is pending before the Federal District Court or some other Appellate Division of the Federal Courts, that he would ask and, again, demand that John Africa assist him in the defense of his murder charge.

Page 13.

He also wants to bring to your attention, Your Honor, the jury that now is sitting in judgment of him is biased; that he has not had a full opportunity to select a jury of his peers. We have one black juror who was removed for what one might consider to be mysterious reasons. He, of course, was denied the right to continue as counsel in the selection of those jurors. For those reasons, Your Honor, for those specific reasons and, as well as, in the name of justice, Mr. Jamal asks that Your Honor grant this motion in his petition.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, very briefly in response --

MR. JACKSON: Mr. McGill, before you go on just one second before you respond.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

THE COURT: You want to respond then he can respond? Come on, let's move.

MR. McGILL: Okay.

(A discussion was held off the

Page 14.

record.)

MR. McGILL: Judge, very briefly in response to the juror's excuse, as I mentioned before, the reason for the excuse are personal to the jury and her circumstances at the time. I would point out to the Court that it was a joint excuse between myself and Mr. Jackson which is of record and that it was only those circumstances that Your Honor did excuse. However, Your Honor under those circumstances had full power to sua sponte excuse which you did not exercise. So to use the word mysterious is hardly accurate. I'm sure Mr. Jackson did not mean that as his word but was using Mr. Jamal's word when he said that.

Secondly, as to the issue of representation, the law is emphatically clear as to what the position of the Commonwealth is, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania or the Justices of the Supreme Court. And it, once again, was ruled upon very recently pursuant to the most recent petition. Your Honor's required, of course as I am, as Mr. Jackson is

Page 15.

and as Mr. Jamal is to follow the order of the Court. The issue has been decided. He, of course, has an appeal and has an exception to whatever objection he may have.

Your Honor, I would point out that any -- there is no requirement that there be any further delay for any further courts to resolve that particular issue.

As to the issue of whether or not Justice McDermott is in any way biased towards certain individuals, again, that is inaccurate and if anything it should be noted that Mr. Jamal appears to be somewhat biased against Justice McDermott. As the Justice of the Superior Court was leaving the Supreme Court Mr. Jamal screams out, "What you walking away for? What you walking away for, McDermott?"

This is to a Justice of the Supreme Court in court while it was in session. If there was any kind of prejudice it would certainly be in reverse. And there's nothing to substantiate such a claim against the Justice.

MR. JACKSON: Just very quickly,

Page 16.

the other issue, when Your Honor indeed first considered and subsequently removed Mr. Jamal as counsel, if you will recall, Your Honor, the specific instance was when Your Honor suggested that the issue of my withdraw from this matter should be taken to the Supreme Court, and at that conjuncture Mr. McGill suggested to Your Honor that Mr. Jamal temporarily be removed as counsel so that that would give me standing to take the issue to the court. I brought this to Your Honor's attention. Your Honor then indicated, "Well, it's going to be done temporarily, I'm going to do it, I'm going to remove Mr. Jamal because he is obstructing and now you have standing to go to the Supreme Court."

Until that time, until that argument, Your Honor had not indicated that Mr. Jamal was in any way obstructing the process of this trial. And it was at that time that Your Honor then removed Mr. Jamal. I believe the suggestion of Mr. McGill, as well as, the consideration of Your Honor was that in fact

Page 17.

Mr. Jamal might return to represent himself.

THE COURT: That never entered my mind at all.

MR. JACKSON: Well, Your Honor, it was the --

THE COURT: Let me say this to you, Mr. Jackson: He does not take my rulings as a final ruling at this level. Every time I make a ruling he argues with me for hours. That is disrupting the orderly procedure in this courtroom. If he were an attorney he would never be able to get away with that. You know that. I make a ruling and you accept it because you know you have an exception to my ruling and you have an opportunity to argue that point before the Appellate Court. And if I'm wrong, I'm reversed. But he will not accept my rulings at this level. He just continually is disrupting the proceedings and that's why he's removed.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

THE COURT: That's why I had to

Page 18.

remove him from the courtroom until he promised to behave, and that's why he's back here because he promised to behave. But if he continues to disrupt the proceedings as he's doing now he's going to be removed from the courtroom; not only removed as counsel but from the courtroom. I can't make it any clearer to him and to you. That's my position. He is continually disrupting this court --

MR. JACKSON: But Your Honor --

THE COURT: -- the orderly proceedings.

MR. JACKSON: If you will, Your Honor, I think any disruptions that, Your Honor, may have been brought to Your Honor's attention has been occasioned by Mr. Jamal's sincere wish and desire to represent himself.

THE COURT: Let me tell you I understand how sincere he is. That's not the point.

MR. JACKSON: But --

THE COURT: The point is that when the Court makes the ruling that it's final at this level. You take an appeal, you have an exception. I am not going to stand here and

Page 19.

argue with him for hours and hours and hours.

MR. JACKSON: I understand that.

THE COURT: This case will never be able to procedure.

MR. JACKSON: Well --

THE COURT: I am not going to hear anymore on it. I've heard it. I'm denying it again for whatever time it is and that's it. We'll proceed.

MR. JACKSON: Would you permit one further comment, Your Honor?

THE COURT: If it's on this issue, no.

MR. JACKSON: It is on this issue.

THE COURT: No further argument on this. I've made up my mind. I've told you how I feel. He's been disrupting -- he's doing it right now. It's 11:30 almost and we haven't even gone back to court this morning. All because he wants to disrupt the proceedings, and I'm not going to allow it. Now we're going to proceed. if he doesn't want to sit here, that's fine.

Page 20.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

MR. McGILL: Shall I recall the witness, Miss White, on cross-examination?

(A discussion was held off the record.)

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, before the jury comes in I'd like to --

THE COURT: I don't want to hear from you.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I understand that you never wanted to hear from me.

THE COURT: Because he is representing you now.

THE DEFENDANT: I understand. He is not representing my interests, Judge.

THE COURT: He is representing you.

THE DEFENDANT: He is not representing me, Judge. If he's not working for me who --

THE COURT: I'm ordering you again to sit down.

THE DEFENDANT: Judge, I have a point to make, and you can order me to sit down.

Page 21.

You can order me thrown out of this courtroom. That's your prerogative.

THE COURT: Sheriff --

THE DEFENDANT: I am not disrupting --

THE COURT: Sheriff, take him out of the court again. You are disrupting --

THE DEFENDANT: I am not disrupting, Judge.

THE COURT: I am not going to put up with it.

THE DEFENDANT: I am not disrupting. You are disrupting my right to defend myself.

THE COURT: I know.

THE DEFENDANT: I don't want him participating in this case and --

THE COURT: I know you don't and that's why you're disrupting --

THE DEFENDANT: I'm not disrupting. You're playing hangman, Judge. You're taking McDermott's place.

THE COURT: He's doing an excellent job.

Page 22.

THE DEFENDANT: Executing.

(The defendant was removed the courtroom.)

THE COURT: Bring the jury back in.

(The following took place in open court in the presence of the jury:)

THE COURT: Bring the witness in, please.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, Miss White is back there.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, Jonathan Black, a member of the bar, is going to assist me in further cross-examination. I will continue to do the questioning, Mr. Black is going to assist me in some other matters.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, may I see you at side bar briefly before the witness starts?

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. McGILL: Judge, I think at this point there may be an instruction -- perhaps

Page 23.

we should instruct the jury at this point that, unless you object to it, that the defendant is not present, that you are not to any way let that prejudice you. And I think you should also add that that should not in any way -- that they should not feel any sympathy for the defendant, all in one sentence. Such as you must not let the fact that the defendant's absence in this courtroom in any way affect you through any sympathy, prejudice or bias of any sort.

MR. JACKSON: As long as there is no focus on sympathy. If you say just as he last said, that it should not lead you to draw any sympathy, any inference of sympathy of prejudice or bias in any way, fine. But I wouldn't want it to say you shouldn't sympathize with him. If you say all of them together --

THE COURT: Wait a while. If we're going to have some question about it why don't we go back in chambers and I'll you draw it up.

(A discussion was held off the record.)

Page 24.

(Side bar conference ended.)

(A conference was held in chambers off the record.)

THE COURT: Members of the jury, you are not to draw any adverse inferences from the absence of the defendant. You should further refrain from any sympathy, bias or prejudice for or against the defendant. All right. We'll proceed.

MR. McGILL: Yes, Your Honor. Miss White is present for further cross examination. I have no objection that Mr. Jackson have assistance.

COMMONWEALTH'S EVIDENCE

CYNTHIA WHITE, resumed.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Cont'd)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Good morning, Miss White.

A. Good morning.

Page 25.

White - Cross

Q. Miss White, I want to inquire as to -- before we go on into the incident itself, you indicated on direct examination yesterday that you have not participated in any agreement with the Commonwealth; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And you indicated to this jury yesterday that, in fact, you had three open charges and that's all; is that right?

A. (No response.)

Q. Here in Pennsylvania?

A. I have other charges but they're not being processed. They not like open.

Q. They're not open?

A. Yeah. They were bench warrants.

Q. Bench warrants. Right. Tell us about the bench warrants. We'll withdraw that question and give you another one. You told this jury yesterday that you only had three open cases in Pennsylvania; didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. That's not true, though, is it?

Page 26.

White - Cross

A. No. I have other cases.

Q. So you understand that you're under oath, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And you understand the oath assumes you swear to tell the truth?

A. Yes.

Q. Now I'm not going to go through the false statements that we went through yesterday, but why don't you tell us at least from the beginning, from this point on -- we'll forgive you -- from this point on tell us all of the truth. What cases do you have open?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I'll let her answer.

MR. McGILL: All right.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. What cases do you have open?

A. I think it's two or three bench warrants and three other open cases.

Q. One or two bench warrants or two or three?

A. I said two or three.

Q. Why don't you know?

Page 27.

White - Cross

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you know when the bench warrants were issued?

A. I don't remember the dates.

Q. All right. Look, let's examine this. This incident happened on December the 9th, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. You were supposed to be in court on December the 10th, the next day, weren't you?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember.

A. No.

Q. Do you remember at a prior hearing me asking you that and you said, "Yes?" I'm sorry, that's not the form, Your Honor.

Well, let me do it this way: You say you don't remember if you had to be in court on the 10th of December?

A. No.

Q. Do you usually remember your court dates?

A. No. If I have the subpoena, yeah.

Q. You didn't have a subpoena?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember whether you were given a

Page 28.

White - Cross

subpoena to appear in court December the 10th? Is that what you're telling us?

A. On that date, no, I don't remember.

Q. Did you appear in court on December the 10th?

A. No.

Q. Do you know why you didn't appear in court on December the 10th?

A. I don't remember.

Q. So that you at least had one bench warrant issued -- I mean did anyone tell you? Who told you about the bench warrants?

A. I found out about it later on.

Q. Yes. How did you find out about it?

A. Because I seen one of the subpoenas and the date was over, and it was a bench warrant.

Q. What day was that?

A. I don't remember the date.

Q. You have so many that you don't recall which bench warrant it refers to?

A. I said it was two or three so --

Q. Okay. So you're saying you saw the subpoena and you saw that the date was over. Why did you assume a bench warrant was out? Or did you assume

Page 29.

White - Cross

it, or did somebody tell you? You said that you found out about it later. Tell us how you found out about the bench warrant?

A. I just did. I just told you.

Q. No. Tell us how you found out about the bench warrant?

A. I assumed that I did have a bench warrant. I didn't appear in court.

Q. You assumed that, is that what you're saying?

A. Yeah.

Q. So you're saying that you never knew for certain that there was a bench warrant?

A. For that specific date I don't remember.

Q. No, never mind that specific date. But you didn't know that you had a bench warrant for some time in December?

A. At one time I did have a bench warrant. I don't remember what date it was for.

Q. You said at one time you knew it?

A. Yes.

Q. And you knew it by assuming?

A. No.

Q. Who told you?

Page 30.

White - Cross

A. Down in court.

Q. Where?

A. At 8th and Race.

Q. And who told you down there?

A. The Judge.

Q. And when was that?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was it in December?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was it in January?

A. I don't remember.

Q. The only thing you remember is what happened on December the 9th; is that it?

A. Yeah, I remember that.

Q. That's the only thing you remember. Okay. Let's go on. Did you get a second bench warrant?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you know for what date that was?

A. No.

Q. So the members of the jury know what a bench warrant is, tell them what it is.

A. When you fail to appear in court.

Page 31.

White - Cross

Q. What happens?

A. You get a bench warrant.

Q. And who gives you a bench warrant?

A. The Judge.

Q. And the Judge does that because you fail to appear, right?

A. Yeah.

Q. You have at least two of them. Could it have been three bench warrants?

A. I don't know. I said two or three.

Q. Two or three. I know, you don't remember. All right. You were arrested on the 12th of December, weren't you?. Remember, we went over that yesterday? The same date you have a statement to the police.

A. Yeah.

Q. You didn't know about the bench warrant then?

A. I don't remember if it was the 12th or -- I mean --

Q. It probably wasn't the 12th because that's only two days after you were supposed to be in court on the 10th. But remember on the 17th when you changed

Page 32.

White - Cross

the statement up a lot that's when the Judge told you you had a bench warrant, isn't it?

A. I said I didn't remember if it was the 12th or the 17th. I don't remember.

Q. Okay. For the moment, we know that it takes some time for these bench warrants to go through the system. So let's assume for the moment that your failure to appear on the 10th was not given to the Judge at the Roundhouse by the 12th. But we know you were arrested again on the 17th, and we know from your testimony yesterday -- and you correct me if I'm wrong -- you said on the l7th that was the time that you called the police from downstairs -- is that right? -- and said, "Hey, I got something else to tell you?" Wasn't that your testimony yesterday?

A. No, I didn't say I had something else to tell them.

Q. Well, you called them, though, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you said that was on the 17th when you were downstairs, right?

A. I don't remember whether I said downstairs or

Page 33.

White - Cross

at the 6th District was when I called, yeah.

Q. But in any event, when you called them because you had already seen that notice that they posted for you in the 6th District on the 17th, if I recall your testimony from yesterday, you said you called them because you remember something else and you didn't tell them or something like that; is that right?

A. No, it's not right.

Q. It wasn't on the 17th?

A. I didn't say that yesterday.

Q. All right. Well, tell us now, then. What did you tell them when you called?

MR. McGILL: Objection. That is argumentative.

MR. JACKSON: Fine. I withdraw it now.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Fine. Tell us what you told them on the 17th when you called?

A. I called them and I told them where I was at.

Q. Right.

A. And --

Page 34.

White - Cross

You just said, "Hello, police, I'm downstairs," and hung up?

A. No.

Q. What else did you say? Tell us.

A. I told them where I was at. I said -- they asked me can I come down and they told me I was arrested.

Q. Say that again. They asked you what?

A. Can I come down and I told them I was arrested.

Q. The police asked you if they can come downstairs?

A. No. If I can come down there.

Q. Right.

A. And I said, "No, I was arrested."

Q. Right. Go on.

A. And they told me some more information that they didn't get from me but he don't know because he wasn't the police that was taking the statement.

Q. Okay. Now by the 17th the Judge at the Roundhouse, The Municipal Court Judge at the Roundhouse, had a bench warrant. That means that you would not be released; is that correct?

A. (No response.)

Q. Let me ask you generally. If there's a bench

Page 35.

White - Cross

warrant outstanding for you, you go down to the Roundhouse, and the Judge says, "You got a bench warrant on you." Doesn't that mean you can't be released? Come on, you know that, don't you?

A. It all depends on what the bench warrant is for.

Q. It all depends on what the bench warrant is for. If the bench warrant is for your arrest, what do you mean?

A. A Judge can lift the bench warrant.

Q. The Judge that issued it, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was the Judge that issued the bench warrant down at the Roundhouse?

A. I don't remember who issued the bench warrant.

Q. You don't remember who issued the bench -- you don't remember, I'm sure, who the Judge was down the Roundhouse, either, do you?

A. Yes.

Q. Who was it?

A. On which date are you talking about?

Q. On the 17th. Fine. You tell me on all the dates. Who was there on the 12th?

Page 36.

White - Cross

A. It was Judge Harris.

Q. Judge Harris, Kenneth Harris?

A. I don't know his first name.

Q. And who was there on the 17th?

A. Bednarek.

Q. Now you're certain of those Judges, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, how is it you're able to remember those two Judges?

A. Cause I went in front of them before and I remember them.

Q. Okay. Was there any discussion, first of all, on the 12th with Judge Harris with regard to your bench warrant?

A. I -- yeah. I told him that the bench warrant was lifted on a date and I had another date to appear and a bench warrant at City Hall. But the bench warrant was not tooken off of the computer so the clerk was there the day that I went down there and a bench warrant lifted. So he told the Judge that the bench warrant was lifted.

Q. But that wasn't the truth, though, was it?

A. Yeah, it was the truth.

Page 37.

White - Cross

Q. You didn't have a bench warrant outstanding for you on the 12th of December?

A. I don't remember the date.

Q. You just said that you told the Judge that it was --

MR. McGILL: Objection. Can she finish?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. Forgive me, go on.

THE WITNESS: I don't remember the date but I told the Judge that the bench warrant was lifted but it just wasn't off the computer.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. So you're saying you're absolutely certain that on the 12th of December you did not have a bench warrant outstanding?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember. Well, how is it you don't remember but you remember telling Judge Harris that there was none? Wasn't that a lie that you told the Judge to get out?

A. No.

Q. Okay. So your failure to appear on the 10th --

Page 38.

White Cross

you told the Judge that somehow that was cleared up; is that right?

A. I told him -- the clerk, had told him that was --

Q. Never mind what the clerk told him. What you told him.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I'm asking what you told the Judge, not the clerk. What you told the Judge.

A. Yes. I told him it was lifted because I had the paper there and I showed him the paper.

Q. I didn't mean to interrupt.

A. I showed him the paper that it was lifted that they gave me.

Q. All right. Did you appear for a bench warrant hearing between the 10th and the 12th?

A. I don't think they gave me a date for bench warrant.

Q. So how could you have it lifted if you didn't appear?

A. The Judge lifted it at the Roundhouse.

Q. Judge Harris lifted it?

A. If I'm not mistaken I think they called -- I

Page 39.

White - Cross

don't know. But it was lifted. I don't remember who lifted it.

Q. You're losing your memory again.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Please, no comments, Mr. Jackson. Just ask questions.

MR. JACKSON: All right.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. We'll get back to the 17th. You already indicated that you have two or three bench warrants still outstanding, don't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it one of those outstanding bench warrants for December the 10th?

A. I don't remember the date.

Q. You don't know any of the dates for those bench warrants?

A. No.

Q. All right. Now, let's get to December 17th. Now on December 17th certainly it was on the computer that you had a bench warrant outstanding for your failure to appear on the 10th of December. Now, you indicated that you spoke to someone at homicide;

Page 40.

White - Cross

is that correct? They told you that they wanted to talk to you; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You didn't tell them that you wanted to talk to them; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And coincidentally the only time you called them is when you get arrested; isn't that right?

A. That was the only time I seen the picture.

Q. And -- well, you saw it on the 12th, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And between the 12th and 17th you had the number, didn't you?

A. Yes, but I didn't know they wanted me again.

Q. And you knew that you didn't give them any address so that they could contact you; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So as long as you never got arrested again they'd never be able to see you again; isn't that true?

A. I don't know.

Page 41.

White - Cross

Q. You don't know. Okay. But if you wanted to testify in this case, if you saw what you said you saw, why didn't you give them the proper address?

MR. McGILL: Objection. She didn't say she didn't want to testify.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question, Mr. Jackson.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. If you saw what you said you saw why didn't you give them your proper address?

MR. McGILL: Objection. What's the relevance of one to the other?

MR. JACKSON: So that the police could contact you to bring you into court so that you could come --

THE COURT: Rephrase the question.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You didn't give the police your proper address, did you?

A. No.

Q. And the only time the police came in contact

Page 42.

White - Cross

with you is when you called them on the phone at the instance of your arrest; isn't that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And even though you had their phone number in between arrests you didn't call them; is that right?

A. That's right.

Q. And even though you had these bench warrants outstanding you're saying that there's no deal for you to be out on the street or there was no deal for you to be released on the street? Is that what you're saying?

A. That's what I'm saying.

Q. And on the 17th when indeed there was a bench warrant outstanding for you how did you get released from jail?

A. I just -- I told you before.

Q. Tell us again.

A. The bench warrant was lifted but it was never tooken off the computer.

Q. Oh, you're saying on the 17th it's that same bench warrant?

A. Yes, that's the same one that came up.

Page 43.

White - Cross

Q. And you're saying that the Judge removed the bench warrant without a hearing?

A. What do you mean without a hearing?

Q. Without going to a bench warrant hearing.

A. He gave me a date to go to the bench warrant hearing at City Hall.

Q. Who did?

A. The Judge?

Q. Which Judge?

A. Judge Harris.

Q. Now, you indicated to us earlier -- and you correct me if I'm wrong -- that you know and I know that the system says that the Judge who issues the bench warrant is the one who removes the bench warrant. So are you saying that Judge Harris removed the bench warrant, lifted the bench warrant?

A. I said I don't know. I said when I went there the bench warrant was lifted.

Q. But you know the only one who can lift it is the Judge who issued it; isn't that right?

A. I don't know. I guess so.

Q. You guess so. You told us emphatically earlier that that was a fact; that the Judge who issued it

Page 44.

White - Cross

had to lift it; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Now, remember you just told us earlier, of course, that you told Judge Harris that the bench warrant was lifted. That was on the 12th. Now on the 17th when you appeared before Judge Bednarek you told him the same thing; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. That the bench warrant was lifted; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you're referring to the same bench warrant?

A. Yes.

Q. And you're saying that although it was Judge Harris there on the 12th some Judge whom you don't know lifted the bench warrant; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, that's step one bench warrant. The second bench warrant, again, you don't know when you got there, right?

A. No.

Q. You don't know when you got this, right?

A. No.

Page 45.

White Cross

Q. You don't know when you got the third bench warrant, either, do you?

A. No.

Q. Because it's not important to you?

A. Yes, but I don't remember.

Q. Now, that's a failure to obey the court order; isn't it?

A. Court appearance, yes.

Q. Yes. So you're in contempt of court; isn't that true?

A. Yes.

Q. On three occasions at least?

A. On two or three...

Q. On two or three. How about -- we'll go all the way back. How about on November the 30th, 1980? Did you appear in Courtroom 362?

A. 362?

Q. 362. I'm sorry, 682 City Hall. my apologies.

A. (No response.)

Q. I know, you don't remember, right?

A. No, I don't.

Q. I didn't think so. How about on 12/18 1980, did you appear in 682 on contempt of court charges?

Page 46.

White - Cross

A. I don't remember.

Q. I know you don't remember. Okay. How about on 10/10/81, did you appear in 682 for contempt of court?

A. (No response.)

Q. Let me answer for you. You don't remember, do you?

A. Right.

Q. Isn't it that you're so contemptuous of the court that you have no recall whatsoever?

A. I just don't remember.

Q. You just don't remember when you're in contempt of court? Is that it?

A. Yeah.

Q. Fine. We just wanted the jury to know that you're contemptuous of the court. Now, these contempt hearings, the last one being 10/8/81 so that's even before these three outstanding bench warrants were issued; isn't that correct?

MR. McGILL: I would object to that, Your Honor, that aspect of it. What are you talking about, three bench warrants? Three

Page 47.

White - Cross

open cases? Anything prior to that is inadmissible. I will object.

THE COURT: Will you rephrase your question so there will be no objection?

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR.JACKSON:

Q. The last time you appeared in contempt of court was back in October of '81. These three out standing bench warrants that you currently have on you were subsequent to October of '81; is that a fact?

A. I don't understand what you mean.

Q. Sure. You went to some prior hearings for contempt of court. In fact, so that I can have you handle the numbers better, one, two, three, four, you had four prior contempt of court hearings. All right. And the last one being in October of '81. Since October of '81 you had bench warrants issued against you; is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. Three, haven't you?

A. I don't remember. It's two or three.

Q. Two or three. And you would be required to

Page 48.

White - Cross

have three hearings on each of those bench warrants; is that a fact?

A. Three hearings or three trials?

Q. Three hearings on the bench warrants.

A. Repeat the question.

Q. Yes, ma'am. Given your experience with one contempt of court, when you have a bench warrant outstanding you have a hearing on that bench warrant, do you not?

A. You go to trial.

Q. You don't have a trial. What were those times when you went to 682 for contempt of court? That wasn't the trial, was it? Wasn't that a hearing on the bench warrant? Like, you know, where were you, why didn't you show up? Isn't that what those are?

A. Yes.

Q. So again, my question is: You have three outstanding bench warrants so you're supposed to have three hearings for those bench warrants; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you gone to a hearing for any of them?

Page 49.

White Cross

A. They have me scheduled. I didn't go to court yet. They have me scheduled for me to go through trial.

Q. Who told you that?

A. The D.A.

Q. Mr. McGill told you that?

A. Yes.

Q. Is the D.A. the one who schedules court hearings?

MR. McGILL: I would object to her knowledge of the system.

MR. JACKSON: Before he didn't want to object about Massachusetts.

THE COURT: Can you rephrase that question?

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The question is: Anyway, have you had a hearing on anyone of those bench warrants?

A. No.

Q. Do you have a subpoena or any other formal notice indicating when you would have a hearing on those bench warrants?

Page 50.

White - Cross

A. No,'cause under the law they can't bring me down from being a witness in trial and be on my cases, so they haven't been scheduled yet. They have to go to trial.

Q. Since you're so knowledgeable of the law, and so the jury will understand, you're saying as a result of being arrested and convicted in Massachusetts that you're simply here in this instance right now because the District Attorney requested of the Massachusetts authorities to allow you to testify; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And that after you testify you are to go back to Massachusetts; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So that you're saying that in effect that we can't, the Philadelphia Courts cannot, try you on those bench warrants or those outstanding cases until Massachusetts is through with you; is that correct?

MR. McGILL: I would object.

THE WITNESS: It's confusing.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, she --

MR. McGILL: Bench warrants and open

Page 51.

White - Cross

cases are the same thing.

MR. JACKSON: They are not, Your Honor.

MR. McGILL: The three bench warrants are for the three open cases.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, they are not the same thing and I think Your Honor well knows that.

MR. McGILL: They refer to each other is what I'm saying, Judge. Obviously they're different.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. When were you arrested in Massachusetts?

A. I don't remember the date.

Q. I know. Generally? It was in May, wasn't it?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. You think so?

A. I don't remember the date.

Q. Can't you help us a little bit with your memory, Miss White. I mean, it's awfully confusing. Do you know whether it was February, March, April, May, June? I mean, take a guess, pick one of those

Page 52.

White - Cross

months.

A. It was either April or May, I don't remember.

Q. Either April or May? Weren't those bench warrants outstanding even before you were arrested in Massachusetts?

A. Yes.

Q. So to say that we couldn't try you in Philadelphia because of your trouble in Massachusetts isn't true because you were on the streets of Philadelphia before then; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So that we've established then, that you still didn't go to any hearings -- is that right? -- on the bench warrants?

A. Yes.

Q. And we've established further that you got no notice of any hearings for the bench warrants; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And we can further establish -- and you tell me if I'm wrong -- that you never appeared at any of your court dates for those open cases, either?

A. Yes, I have.

Page 53.

White - Cross

Q. On which days?

A. I don't remember the day.

Q. Did you appear for each of your outstanding cases?

A. It was one.

Q. One that you appeared for?

A. Yes.

Q. And two that you did not appear for?

A. Yes.

Q. Why didn't you appear for those two?

A. 'Cause I was in jail.

Q. Where at?

A. Boston.

Q. Well, if you don't know when you were locked up how do you know that you were in jail when the cases were scheduled?

A. 'Cause I remember being in jail. I don't know what to tell you.

Q. How come you remember being in jail if you don't know when you were supposed to be in court?

A. I don't remember the exact date. That's what I'm saying.

Q. Well, how can you say you were in jail?

Page 54.

White - Cross

A. During the months period that I was in jail.

Q. During what months?

A. It was in April or May.

Q. It's a big difference, Well, when were your two cases scheduled? You're saying your two cases were scheduled April or May?

A. Yes.

Q. You didn't have any scheduled in January?

A. (No response.)

Q. Did you?

A. I don't know.

Q. How about February, specifically February 25th?

A. (No response.)

Q. Could you tell us?

A. I don't know.

Q. How about March?

A. I think that's the case I went to court on.

Q. You went to court in March?

A. I think that was the date.

Q. You don't remember the exact date but you know in March. Okay. Did you go to court in April at all?

A. No.

Page 55.

White - Cross

Q. The only reason I'm asking you that is because on direct examination in response to Mr. McGill's question you indicated that you were arrested in May in Boston. Okay?

A. No. I indicated that I was in jail here in Philadelphia since May 28th.

Q. Yes. That was in response to my question. But you're saying that if you told Mr. McGill that you were arrested in May that that was incorrect?

MR. McGILL: Objection. Arrested where?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. In Boston.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You're saying if you told Mr. McGill that it was May that that's incorrect?

A. No,'cause I just said April or May. I don't remember.

Q. Okay. It's only when you talk to me that you don't remember. In response to Mr. McGill you say it without hesitation -- May. So I wonder why you can't remember when I ask you questions.

A. I just can't remember.

Q. Now, you have never been jailed for more than

Page 56.

White - Cross

a couple hours since December the 9th -- have you? -- by Philadelphia authorities?

A. A couple hours?

Q. Yeah, other than the processing that you go through at the Roundhouse. In fact, how long did you stay?

MR. McGILL: Objection. Can she answer the question?

MR. JACKSON: I was going to withdraw that question, if you don't mind.

THE COURT: Well, say you're withdrawing it.

MR. JACKSON: I'm withdrawing that question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. On the 12th how long were you in police custody? Strike that. How long were you down at the Roundhouse?

MR. McGILL: Objection. When?

THE WITNESS: As long as it takes them to process me.

Page 57.

White Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. And after they finish processing you that's when you went upstairs to Homicide?

A. I don't remember at what point in time I went upstairs to Homicide.

Q. How do you know it took them as long as it took them to process you if you don't remember when you went up to Homicide, Miss White?

A. You're asking me before I went to the Judge, or before I went to Homicide?

Q. So that the jury knows, how long does it normally take you to be processed down at the Roundhouse? Isn't it about ten hours?

A. Yeah.

Q. Okay. How long were you down at the Detention Unit on the 12th?

A. Before what?

Q. You know, the ten hours that you just talked about?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did that take on the 12th?

A. I don't know.

Q. Did it take five hours? Two hours? Eleven?

Page 58.

White - Cross

Twelve? You can't remember?

A. I don't know. As long as it took them to process me.

Q. And then at some point in time you went up to Homicide?

A. Yes.

Q. So you're telling us, you want the jury to believe, you waited downstairs for ten hours, Homicide waited until you were finished for ten hours? Is that what you're saying?

A. I don't remember whether I went upstairs to get processed.

Q. Okay. How about on the 17th?

A. It's the same thing.

Q.You were processed but you don't remember how long it took or anything?

A. No.

Q. You don't remember at what point you went to Homicide?

A. No.

Q. Now, these Homicide detectives that you talked to, they knew about these outstanding bench warrants, too, didn't they?

Page 59.

White - Cross

A. I don't know.

Q. The subject never came out?

A. No.

Q. You're certain of that?

MR. McGILL: Objection. She answered the question.

MR. JACKSON: I just want to be -- I'm just giving her an opportunity to correct it if she wants to.

MR. McGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Are you certain? The Homicide detectives or D.A.'s --

THE COURT: The objection is sustained.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How about the Assistant District Attorney, Mr. McGill, or anyone in his office? Did the subject of those bench warrants ever come up?

A. Yes.

Q. How many times?

A. I don't know. They just told me I will be trialed on them, maybe they will be scheduled and I

Page 60.

White - Cross

will be trialed.

Q. Fine. And you don't know when that was?

A. I don't remember when it was.

Q. It was Mr. McGill that told you that?

A. Yes.

Q. And you know from your own experience that the District Attorney's office doesn't schedule these hearings, don't you?

A. I don't know who schedules them.

Q. You don't? Okay. Aside from the hotel accommodations that you've claimed you've gotten from the District Attorney's office, you have a friend named Smitty, don't you?

A. (No response.)

Q. You have a friend named Smith?

A. Smith what?

Q. His last name is Smith. I don't know his first name. Maybe you can tell us.

A. No.

Q. The man who was arrested when Mr. McGill questioned you about the District Attorney allowing a man to remain out, to sign his own bail, I thought his name was Smith. Is his name Smith?

Page 61.

White Cross

A. No.

Q. What's his name?

A. Robert Small.

Q. Robert Small?

A. Yes.

Q. Has he used the name Smith?

A. I don't know.

Q. When Mr. McGill brought it to your attention what name did he give you?

A. (No response.)

Q. What name did Mr. McGill tell you?

A. (No response.)

Q. Do you remember, Miss White? Do you remember what name Mr. McGill told you? He said, "We let a friend of yours sign his own bail." Do you remember on direct examination you had no problems answering the question? Now I'm asking you.

A. His name Prince.

Q. Pardon me?

A. Prince.

Q. His name is Prince?

A. That was the name that he used.

Q. Prince?

Page 62.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. But when you were talking to Mr. McGill on direct examination Mr. McGill didn't call him Prince.

A. Excuse me?

Q. Mr. McGill did not call this man Prince, did he?

A. He said, "Your friend."

Q. Yes and then he named him.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor. It's inaccurate to my recollection.

THE COURT: I don't remember. Can you rephrase your question?

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Okay. So you're saying, so that I'm correct, your friend Robert Small also known as Prince does not use the name Smith; is that right?

A. I said I don't know.

Q. Now, you knew about his arrest, right?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you find out about his arrest?

A. When I came down.

Q. And you weren't even in town when he was arrested, were you?

Page 63.

White - Cross

A. No.

Q. And the District Attorney's office took it upon themselves to release this man, let him sign his own bail; isn't that correct? As far as you know.

Q. They released him for security reasons from the local prison.

Q. Is that what they told you?

A. Yes.

Q. Because you don't know because you weren't here, right?

A. Yes.

Q. That's what they told you, "For security reasons we're releasing him?" Is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you ever given this man Robert Prince Small, have you ever publicly given his name out to anyone?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor, as being irrelevant.

MR. JACKSON: No, it is relevant, Your Honor. If she's going to give that -- for some reason she was told for security

Page 64.

White Cross

reasons why should this man be released?

THE COURT: Go ahead. I'll let your question stand.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. The question is: Have you ever publicly given this man's name?

MR. McGILL: Objection. What do you mean, "publicly?"

MR. JACKSON: At any hearing.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Have you ever given his name?

MR. McGILL: As what? Her name or what, as what?

MR. JACKSON: Just the name.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Have you ever announced the name as someone who is a friend of yours or someone who is accompanying you, or someone who is doing something for you or something against you? Have you given his name in any context whatsoever?

A. Yes.

MR. McGILL: I have no objection.

MR. JACKSON: Okay.

Page 65.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. At a hearing? I'm not talking about to the District Attorney. I know they know. Anyone else other than your close friends and the District Attorney and police? Have you given it to anyone else?

A No.

Q. So in other words if there was some kind of security problem it would be a security problem that relates to the District Attorney or your close friends because no one else knew of his existence; isn't that true?

A. No.

Q. You're still saying there was a security problem. All right. But nobody else knows that he even exists but there's a problem for him; is that what you're saying?

A. Yes.

Q. Even though nobody knows that he exists if they -- okay. Moving right along --

MR. McGILL: I object to that. I don't think she's saying that.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

Page 66.

White - Cross

By MR. JACKSON:

Q. All right. You know that the District Attorney permitted him to sign his own bail and they brought that to your attention and told you, "We did this for you because he accompanies you? Is that right? Strike that. What did they say? What was the purpose of releasing Prince?

A. I just told you.

Q. For what reason?

A. For security reasons.

Q. That's the only reason?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, why is Prince so important? Why not Joe Blow in the prison? Why don't they release everybody in the prison for security reasons? I mean, what is it, what is the nature of the relationship between you and Prince that requires or recommends that the District Attorney should recommend that he sign his own bail?

A. He's a close friend of mine and he's been seen a couple times with me.

Q. Do you have any other friends? You only have

Page 67.

White - Cross

one friend in this world?

A. Close friend, yes.

Q. You only have one close friend?

A. Yes.

Q. And he's the only person in this world that you've been seen with since December the 9th?

MR. McGILL: Objection. That is not what she said.

MR. JACKSON: I'm asking.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Have you been seen anywhere with anyone else since December the 9th?

MR. McGILL: Objection as irrelevant.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. We understand that there's a security problem for Prince because he's close to you and he's been seen with you. My question is: Are there other people that have been seen with you and is there a security problem for them, too?

A. He's the only person that be with me.

Q. So now you're saying absolutely you haven't been with anyone since December the 9th until today? Isn't

Page 68.

White - Cross

that ridiculous?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Anywhere on the face of this earth have you been anywhere with anyone else other than Prince?

A. Yes.

Q. All right then. Is there a security problem for all of those other people that you've seen?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know but you do know there is one for Prince?

A. Yes.

Q. Simply because he knows you?

A. (No response.)

Q. Is that what you want this jury to believe? Just because you know him --

MR. McGILL: There's an objection. Please let the witness respond.

THE COURT: Please ask her one question at a time.

MR. JACKSON: My apologies, Your Honor. I'm excited. I'm sorry.

THE COURT: Don't get excited.

Page 69.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, forgive me. So that we all know, what is it specifically that causes you to believe and conclude because Prince knows you, because he's seen with you, that the District Attorney needs to release him from prison because there's a security problem? Tell us.

A. He's a close friend and also works with me.

Q. Works with you in what way?

A. In what I do.

Q. What do you do that you need him to work with you?

MR. McGILL: Objection as beyond the scope.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, it goes to the --

THE COURT: Let me see you over here.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

THE COURT: Where are you going and what is your purpose?

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I have reason to believe and I think we can get the

Page 70.

White - Cross

notes of testimony back on January the 11th in front of Judge Ribner I had information at that time that led me to believe that there was someone -- I don't know whether it was this man or someone else -- that she had a friend in jail that was being released as a result of her testimony and that she had open charges that were going to be dismissed. Now, I admit that I don't have any facts to back that up but based on that now her testimony and Mr. McGill's representations as well that at least on one occasion this man was permitted to sign his own bail.

I want to find out if, in fact, that's all part and parcel -- now she's saying it's security reasons. I want to suggest that it's not for security he signed his own bail but because they were doing that to permit and encourage her to testify. And I think I should --

THE COURT: That's something you would have to ask the District Attorney.

MR. McGILL: Judge, I don't think --

THE COURT: Because she was away at

Page 71.

White - Cross

the time, she was in Boston.

MR. JACKSON: I understand that but you personally allowed that kind of information to come out before when Mr. McGill was asking about --

THE COURT: Well, he said that they informed her when she came here that they had allowed this friend to sign his own bail.

MR. JACKSON: Isn't it bias, the motivation surrounding that --

THE COURT: But you're saying that you think that the police or the District Attorney has this motive. How can she testify as to what the motive is of somebody else?

MR. JACKSON: Because of her discussions she's giving now, Judge.

THE COURT: She's admitted that the District Attorney told her that this is what happened.

MR. JACKSON: And I want --

THE COURT: Now, if you want to infer from that that the District Attorney has some motive, fine.

Page 72.

White - Cross

MR. McGILL: But going into the fact of her employment, it's obvious that he works with her in prostitution.

THE COURT: I'm obviously aware of that.

MR. McGILL: Let me finish, if I can?

MR. JACKSON: I may concede that point to you.

MR. McGILL: The only point I'm suggesting is, that it's been explored and obviously they are in business. We know she's a prostitute. I don't think it needs to be explored here. The bias has already been established, if any.

MR. JACKSON: I'll concede that and I don't need to go any further in the nature of the relationship. What I'm trying to do is to show, number one, that there was no security problem and it's for some other reason, and I guess I've only got a few more questions on that issue altogether.

THE COURT: The thing is I don't know

Page 73.

White Cross

if she knows that. As I said, this was done while she was away.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, I think --

THE COURT: And it was told to her when she came here. if you're saying that the District Attorney told her that, "We've released him because he's a friend of yours and we want you to testify," it's a different story.

MR. JACKSON: I think there was something else going on, too, Judge. How would she know that --

MR. McGILL: We're trying to encourage her testimony. Okay. If he wants to pursue that, Judge, I think it's limited to the extent of what she knows.

THE COURT: That's what I'm saying.

MR. JACKSON: What her understanding is, fine.

MR. McGILL: If he were to call Detective Thomas, or somebody like that, who's the assigned detective of the case who's in a position -- that's what Your Honor's getting at?

Page 74.

White -Cross

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. McGILL: She can always speak to what she knows.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

THE COURT: You can come right out and ask her, "Did somebody tell you that we let him go because we want your testimony." That's a different story.

MR. JACKSON: Right.

THE COURT: But as it stands now you can draw any inference you want.

MR. JACKSON: But I'm just thinking that I should be permitted to impeach if that's what she is saying. She's saying it's for security reasons and I'm saying it's for something else.

THE COURT: That's what they may have told her and that's why she keeps repeating it. What's that got to do with it?

MR. McGILL: Yes, she said --

MR. JACKSON: I'm going to find out from her as best as she knows if she knows why she was released.

Page 75.

White - Cross

THE COURT: That's it.

MR. McGILL: Sure.

MR. JACKSON: If he's told her.

THE COURT: Those are the words.

MR. McGILL: If he's told her.

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, let me ask you a few more questions about Prince. You talked to Prince since he was permitted to -- Mr. McGill, I'm sorry. My apologies.

MR. McGILL: Excuse me, Your Honor. I was wrong, not you, Mr. Jackson. Sorry, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, a few more questions about Prince. You've seen him since he was permitted to sign his own bail; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you discussed his signing his own bail, didn't you?

A. With him?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Page 76.

White - Cross

Q. You never talked about it at all?

A. We just talked about the case.

Q. Just talked about the case? He didn't say, "Yeah, the D.A. let me sign my own bail because of what's going on with us," or something like that?

A. No.

Q. Words to that effect?

A. No.

Q. Nothing like that at all?

A. No.

Q. So then you're saying that as a result of what he told you, you had no reason to think that he was permitted to sign his own bail because - strike that. Did he indicate to you that because of his relationship with you the District Attorney was permitting him to sign his own bail?

A. Can you repeat that question again?

Q. Yes, ma'am. Did Prince indicate to you by words, deeds, actions or otherwise that because of his relationship with you the District Attorney was recommending that he be permitted to sign his own bail?

Page 77.

White - Cross

A. No.

Q. He didn't? Okay. And of course you didn't think that that was the reason, either, right?

A. That's right.

Q. You just thought that just because -- never mind. We won't go through that. How many times was he permitted to sign his own bail for trial?

A. Once.

Q. Where was he on December the 9th, 1981 at about 4:00 o'clock in the morning?

A. Home.

Q. How do you know that?

A. That's where he was when I left him.

Q. So you don't know where he was, you're saying, at 4:00 o'clock?

A. Yes.

Q. Pardon me?

A. I left him home.

Q. What time?

A. It was about 2:30, quarter to three, something like that.

Q. I thought you were at a hotel? I'm sorry, not

Page 78.

White - Cross

a hotel. My correction. I thought you were at 13th and Spruce?

A. I was on the corner.

Q. I know. At that time but now you're saying you were home. You live at 13th and Spruce?

A. Twelfth and Spruce.

Q. So you're saying that you left him at home around the same time that you went to 13th and Spruce?

A. I left and I went up to the corner.

Q. Was he at 13th and Locust that evening?

A. No.

Q. You never saw him at 13th and Locust?

A. At what point are you talking about? That evening?

Q. Tell us, ma'am. Yes, that evening.

A. No.

Q. You're certain of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Describe Prince to us, please?

MR. McGILL: Objection. Well, I withdraw the objection, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: Describe him, please.

Page 79.

White - cross

THE WITNESS: (No response.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How tall is he?

A. About five nine, I guess. I'm not good at heights.

Q. Pardon me.

A. I'm not good at height.

Q. About my height? I'm five nine. About my height?

A. Little taller.

Q. A little taller? Maybe six feet?

A. Yeah.

Q. You know one, two, three, about six feet tall?

A. Yeah.

Q. Is he considered short, or tall? What would you consider him, short or tall?

A. Tall.

Q. And how much does he weigh?

A. About a 180.

Q. Is his build slender, medium, heavy? What would you consider him?

A. Medium.

Q. His hair, what style is his hair in?

Page 80.

White - Cross

A. Afro.

Q. Pardon me?

A. Afro.

Q. Afro?

A. Yes.

Q. Has he had a gerry curl or something like that at one point?

A. No.

Q. And you're saying on December the 9th he had an Afro, too?

A. Yes.

Q. You're certain of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, is there anything else about the nature of your relationship with the District Attorney's office or the Court's that you'd like to bring to our attention before we go on?

A. No.

Q. Okay. Because we've spent a couple of hours, about something that you could have cleared up yesterday.

MR. McGILL: Objection. My God.

THE COURT: No comment, please.

Page 81.

White - Cross

Just ask the questions.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you have any agreement by word, or deed or otherwise that would suggest to you what the disposition of your outstanding bench warrant is going to be? Do you know what's going to happen to the bench warrant in other words?

A. I will be trialed for them.

Q. For the bench warrants?

A. Yes.

Q. And what is the District Attorney going to recommend?

A. I don't know.

Q. They didn't tell you?

A. No.

Q. And you didn't ask?

A. No?

Q. You didn't say, "Hey, you know, are you going to help a little bit in this?"

A. No.

Q. You're sure? Never mind. Never mind that question. How about the outstanding cases themselves?

Page 82.

White - Cross

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor. They're the same.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, they're not the same. They're held as two different hearings.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Come here.

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. JACKSON: Judge --

THE COURT: Now Mr. Jackson, you know that as a practical matter -- go ahead.

MR. JACKSON: Could I say --

MR. McGILL: No, you've been talking all morning. Hasn't he?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, as I understand it, these three bench warrants refer to the two open cases that she has. So that there's a hearing and, of course, there would be a trial. If you're talking about two separate things, yes.

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

MR. McGILL: And I think that she

Page 83.

White - Cross

with all this jargon may well be confused that the three bench warrants are because those cases and the last case she was in Boston at the time, they refer to each other.

MR. JACKSON: That is, first of all, Judge, that is not true.

THE COURT: Are you telling me, Mr. Jackson --

MR. McGILL: What are the dates?

THE COURT: -- the Court puts a separate penalty for the bench warrant?

MR. JACKSON: Judge --

THE COURT: I've issued those bench warrants and never did. The only thing I do is sue out on the bail.

MR. JACKSON: Judge --

MR. McGILL: Please, let him finish.

THE COURT: I don't give them a separate hearing on the bench warrants. Usually if they come in they're tried on the case and I lift the bench warrant.

MR. JACKSON: Judge, one moment. Judge, because you do that doesn't mean that

Page 84.

White - Cross

she isn't exposed to a penalty for contempt of court. She's had at least four hearings already.

MR. McGILL: Let me ask you this: Do you have a date for the bench warrants when they were lodged?

MR. JACKSON: When they were lodged?

MR. McGILL: The date when they were lodged?

MR.JACKSON: I know when they were issued.

MR. McGILL: You know what I mean.

MR. JACKSON: Lodged is when they found it.

MR. McGILL: When the Judge --

MR. JACKSON: Issued the bench warrant.

MR. McGILL: Yes.

MR. McGILL: Go on.

MR. JACKSON: On February -- I can get the specific dates. I know there was one on December 10th.

MR. McGILL: All right.

Page 85.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: There was one in February. I don't know the exact date.

THE COURT: Just so we don't go too long, are you saying, then, that the District Attorney has some deal--

MR. JACKSON: I think it's --

THE COURT: When the Court issues a bench warrant because they prosecute doesn't mean a trial. I've sat in Municipal Court and that's a laugh. You know that's a laugh.

MR. JACKSON: But Judge, you're not on the jury.

THE COURT: I know that. That's why I say it's not fair.

MR. JACKSON: But --

THE COURT: You see those 38 arrests there. She wouldn't be out on the street if they put her in jail for prostitution. We don't do that here in Philadelphia. You know that and I know that.

MR. JACKSON: Well --

THE COURT: I sat in Municipal Court.;

MR. JACKSON: They put them in

Page 86.

White - Cross

there sometimes, I think, Judge.

THE COURT: No. I know that.

MR. McGILL: Can you give me the dates they were issued?

MR. JACKSON: I can give you two.

MR. McGILL: So they can be a matter of record.

MR. JACKSON: Two.

MR. McGILL: Two?

MR. JACKSON: One is December the lOth, a bench warrant was issued in Municipal court; the other is, I think, either February 21 or February 25.

MR. McGILL: And there's another one after that.

MR. JACKSON: Another one that --

MR. McGILL: That you don't know the date?

MR. JACKSON: Yes. Three but they're outstanding bench warrants.

MR. McGILL: They're three open cases.

MR. JACKSON: But she was not in

Page 87.

White - Cross

jail at that time, that's my point.

THE COURT: Let me say this: I have issued bench warrants where Municipal Court Judges have lifted them.

MR. JACKSON: I know sometimes it happens but I think the routine --

THE COURT: No, because unless they found something really serious they usually got them out.

MR. JACKSON: Not anymore, though, Judge.

MR. McGILL: Not on the prosecution.

MR. JACKSON: Not anymore down at the Roundhouse because they have computerized all ROR bench warrants and everything. It's not done. They issue warrants for L and I violations.

THE COURT: Why don't you ask if there's a violation?

MR. JACKSON: Yes.

THE COURT: Get right to it because you spent a number of hours --

MR. JACKSON: I know, sir.

Page 88.

White - Cross

(Side bar conference ended.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, quite specifically at this very moment, this is June 22, 1982, do you know of any deal or arrangement that you have with the District Attorney's office, Philadelphia Police Department or the Massachusetts authorities that in any way impacts on your testimony that you've given here today?

A. No.

Q. And do you know of any relationship, any deal, or any arrangement between the Philadelphia Police, District Attorney's office here in Philadelphia with regard to Prince?

A. Can you repeat that?

Q. Sure. Is there any deal, arrangement made by the District Attorney's office or Philadelphia Police Department with Prince that's permitting your testimony?

A. No.

Q. You don't know about any?

A. No, there's no deal.

Q. Pardon me?

A. No.

Page 89.

White - Cross

You said there's no deal?

A. Yes.

Q. How do you know that?

A. Because it wasn't told to me.

Q. Because it wasn't told to you? Just like he didn't tell you that he was being released from prison, either; is that right?

A. Yeah.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, I'd like a recess, if I could, at this point?

MR. McGILL: If Mr. Jackson is finished cross-examination I would like very much to go on redirect.

MR. JACKSON: I'm not finished cross-examination at all.

THE COURT: Two o'clock?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir, if you don't mind, Your Honor.

THE COURT: We'll take a luncheon recess until 2:00 o'clock.

(A luncheon recess was taken until 2:00 o'clock p.m.)

Page 90.

AFTERNOON SESSION

(A conference was held on the record in chambers as follows:)

THE COURT: I just want to state for the record that I had permitted, before the afternoon session beginning, to have Theresa Africa speak to Mr. Jamal and then I had Mr. Jackson speak to Mr. Jamal as to whether or not he intends to behave himself and be back in court. Let the record indicate that the District Attorney and Mr. Jackson are now back with me in chambers.

MR. JACKSON: Mr. Jamal indicates that he will behave himself if he's permitted to and return to court.

THE COURT: All right. Then he will be permitted to return to court.

MR. McGILL: Your Honor, also I'd like to point out that before the session started this morning there was a session, a short session, between Theresa Africa and Mr. Jamal, maybe 15 minutes. Also I would make a request that the instruction that Your Honor gave to the jury

Page 91.

be marked as an exhibit, C-30.

Also I would like to make a record of the fact that yesterday Mr.Jackson made an objection when Cynthia White had stated that she was housed in a hotel for security reasons. At side bar -- I don't know whether this was a matter of record. If it was I'm being repetitious. But at side bar I represented to Mr. Jackson if he was not satisfied with the instruction that the Court would give him that he could ask for additional instructions that there is no specific threat that can be directly related to the defendant; that is, there is no specific threat made to Cynthia White that can be directly related to the defendant, or some such words. Mr. Jackson stated that he felt that such an instruction would not be to his best interest at this time. Is that correct?

MR. JACKSON: That's correct.

THE COURT: All right. Did you want this marked, or the original?

MR. McGILL: That's good enough.

Page 92.

C-30. The original or that.

THE COURT: I can give you the original later on.

MR. McGILL: The original will be marked C-30.

(Conference in chambers ended.)

(The following took place in open court in the presence of the jury:)

MR. JACKSON: May I proceed, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

(CYNTHIA WHITE, resumed.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION (Cont'd)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Good afternoon, Miss White.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. Miss White, let's get to this incident, if you don't mind. On December the 9th about at 3:58 a.m. you were on the corner of 13th and Locust -- is that right? -- within a ten-minute period of time?

Page 93.

White - Cross

A. It was around that time.

Q. Around that time. And you were on the corner with a man that you say you don't know; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you're sure you don't know him?

A. Positive.

Q. Okay. Do you remember testifying at a preliminary hearing of William Cook? I refer you to the notes of testimony, March 29, 1982, Page 41: "Question: Do you know him in the biblical sense?

"Answer: I know him."

Q. Do you remember that question and answer?

A. No.

Q. Are you saying you didn't say it?

A. I'm saying I don't remember.

Q. Okay. Let me ask you again. Do you know the man?

A. No. Just talking to him.

Q. Well, why did you say on this date at the preliminary hearing, I'm sorry, at another hearing that you knew the man?

A. I know him by talking to him. I don't know him,

Page 94.

White - Cross

know him, know him, no.

Q. Did you tell us you didn't know him, know him know him? Did you say that then back on March 29? That's just a few months ago?

A. (No response.)

Q. You said then that you knew him.

MR. McGILL: Objection. Could he read the question and answer preceding it.

MR. JACKSON: I can do it.

BY MR.JACKSON:

Q. "Question: Well, this man that you were with, what were you talking about? Do you recall?

"Answer: Just talking. I know him. We were just talking."

Q. So you said it again that you knew him, twice you said it; is that right? Back on March 29th you said you knew him. Now you come in yesterday and today and you tell us you don't know him.

MR. McGILL: Objection. Your Honor, argumentative. It could be in the form of a question.

MR. JACKSON: My apologies.

Page 95.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. And once and for all, you did know him on the 29th of March but you don't know him today; is that what you're saying?

A. I know him by talking to him.

Q. You know him by talking to him. And what do you mean by that, "You know him by talking to him?"

A. Just what I said. I know him by talking to him.

Q. I don't understand what you mean by, "Know him by talking to him." Do you understand me?

A. No.

Q. Okay. I've been talking to you for two days. So what do you mean by knowing him and by talking to him?

A. We was just talking, you know --

Q. I'm not --

A. -- enough time, you know, communicating in another way.

Q. So you were mistaken when you told Mr. McGill that you didn't know him?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Told me?

Page 96.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. When you testified. Forgive me. When you testified that you didn't know him?

A. I know him just by communicating with him.

Q. But you didn't tell us that before. You just said you didn't know him.

MR. McGILL: Objection. Repetitious and I guess argumentative at this stage.

MR. JACKSON: Fine, Your Honor. Just another one of those things. My apologies.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Okay. Now you indicated that you were standing on the corner of 13th and Locust; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. With this man that you kind of know. You were standing on the corner approximately a half hour before this incident happened, did you say? Correct me if I'm wrong. I've forgotten.

A. About a half hour.

Q. You saw the Volkswagen pull up with the police car, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You don't know, by the way, why the police

Page 97.

White - Cross

pulled the Volkswagen over, do you?

A. No.

Q. And after the Volkswagen was pulled over the police officer got out first and got on the pavement, right?

A. On the street, yeah.

Q. Got out on the street side and then what did he do?

A. He walked over to the Volkswagen.

Q. And then what?

A. And the driver of the Volkswagen got out of the Volkswagen and they were talking.

Q. In the street?

A. Yeah.

Q. Could you hear them talking?

A. No.

Q. How did you know they were talking?

A. I could tell. I could see.

Q. Okay. And then how long did they have a conversation?

A. A few minutes. I don't know. I wasn't timing it.

Q. The only way we're all able to figure out what

Page 98.

White - Cross

it is you say it is for you to give us at least an estimate, if you can, within a few seconds. if it was a half minute, a minute?

A. Couple minutes.

Q. Couple minutes they talked in the street. Now, during the time that you assumed that they were talking in the street did you see the police officer strike William Cook?

A. No.

Q. Did you see William Cook strike the officer?

A. At what time are you talking about?

Q. In the street. We're still in the street, ma'am.

A. No.

Q. Did you see any struggle?

A. In the street?

Q. Still in the street.

A. No.

Q. So there was no physical contact between the two of them at all; is that what you're saying?

MR. McGILL: Objection. Where? In the street?

MR. JACKSON: I'm still talking in

Page 99.

White Cross

the street.

THE COURT: All right. Repeat it.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. We're still talking about in the street. When we get on the sidewalk I'll let you know. Right now in the street was there any physical contact at all?

A. No.

Q. Now once they got on the sidewalk what happened then?

A. A few words passed again and the driver of the Volkswagen then hit the officer in the face.

Q. How long were they on the sidewalk before the driver of the Volkswagen struck the police officer, approximately?

A. Seconds.

Q. Seconds?

A. Something like that.

Q. Before the driver of the Volkswagen struck the police officer did you see the police officer do anything at all to him?

A. Just talking to him.

Q. Just words were exchanged as far as you could determine?

Page 100.

White - Cross

A. Yeah.

Q. Now, at this time did you happen to notice if the police officer had anything in his hands?

A. I didn't see anything in his hands.

Q. Well, let me back up. Up to the point where the officer was struck did you ever see anything in the police officer's hand?

A. No.

Q. All right. Another thing, when you first saw the Volkswagen, I'm sorry, the driver of the Volkswagen and the police officer apparently talking in the street you were on the sidewalk and you were looking at an angle and the car was also in front of you; is that right? The police car was between you and the driver and the police officer?

A. Can you repeat that again?

Q. Sure. Sure. You were on the corner of 13th and Locust; they were further down towards 12th Street or some distance away, in any event; is that right?

A. Yeah.

Q. Let me refer you to the diagram. You correct me if I'm wrong. You indicate that you were

Page 101.

White - Cross

approximately here. You've marked it with an "X"; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And you saw the driver of the Volkswagen and the police officer -- excuse me, members of the jury. You saw the driver of the Volkswagen and the police officer someplace in this area; is that correct?

A. When they were talking?

Q. Right around in here?

A. When they were talking?

Q. Yes, in the street.

A. Yes.

Q. So then isn't it a fact, then, that this police car obstructed your view; that you couldn't see what they were doing in the street?

A. No, it didn't. I could still see. You could see through the police car?

A. I could see over the police car.

Q. And what could you see over top of the police car?

A. That they were talking.

Q. But what portion of their bodies could you see?

A. The side.

Page 102.

White - Cross

Q. The side? From what portion of? From the shoulders up?

A. No.

Q. What portion, then? You saw the entire body?

A. No. I saw from here down to maybe about here.

MR. McGill: Indicating the knees, shoulders to the knees.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You're saying you saw from the shoulders to the knees?

A. Yes.

Q. That's the only portion you saw?

A. Yes.

Q. You didn't see the heads?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me ask you again. What portion of the bodies did you see?

A. From the heads to the knees.

Q. From the head to the knees?

A. Yes.

Q. And you saw that over top of the police car?

A. I could see it from where I was standing at.

Page 103.

White - Cross

Q. Were you elevated? Were you on a platform of any sort?

A. No.

Q. You were on the sidewalk?

A. Yes.

Q. Your feet were on the sidewalk?

A. Yes.

Q. How tall are you?

A. I don't know.

Q. You have no idea how tall you are?

A. No.

Q. Now, you indicated that after you got to the side -- I'm sorry, the police officer and the driver of the Volkswagen got to the sidewalk, he punched him. Then the officer turned him around; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Was there any resistance on the part of William Cook?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did he struggle with William Cook in any way?

A. No, I didn't see any struggle.

Q. Just turned him around?

Page 104.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. He punched the police officer; police officer turned him around, just turned him around?

A. He turned him around.

Q. He turned him around? Wouldn't it be fair to say that he didn't just turn him around but with a lot of force he turned him around; isn't that right?

A. What do you mean by a lot of force?

Q. Well, you tell me then.

A. You said a lot of force. I'm going by what you mean.

Q. I'm withdrawing that question and I want you to tell me with what kind of force did he turn him around.

A. Just turn him around.

Q. It's the force that turned him around, or did William Cook turn himself around? Do you know what I'm saying?

A. No, I don't.

Q. I can toss you around or hold you while I'm turning you around, so I'm trying to ask you from what you could see did the officer turn him around or did he turn himself around?

Page 105.

White - Cross

A. The officer turned him around.

Q. Okay. Now, you indicated that after he turned him around it was at that point that you looked across the street and you saw who you've identified as Mr. Jamal coming across the parking lot; isn't that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the exact time that you first saw him?

A. Who?

Q. Who you say is Mr. Jamal?

A. When he was running out of the parking lot, Yes.

Q. But I mean this was after the police officer had turned William Cook around?

A. Was it the first time I saw Jamal?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, when I looked over there.

Q. Both William Cook and the police officer were on the sidewalk?

A. Yes.

Q. You're certain of that?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Oh, by the way, how far away were you at the time that you were making these observations?

Page 106.

White - Cross

A. What observations are you talking about?

Q. The observations of seeing William Cook strike the officer? About how far away?

A. Two and a half car lengths away.

Q. Two and a half car lengths. When you saw this you saw the cab at the corner?

A. Excuse me?

Q. Did you see the cab pull up at the corner?

A. Yes.

Q. At what point during the struggle did you see the cab pull up?

A. I don't remember.

Q. No idea at all?

A. (No response.)

Q. Do you have any idea?

A. No.

Q. Was it after the struggle?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Was it after the shooting?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Well, you can't remember if it was after the shooting, after the struggle -- by the way, the cab driver says that no one else was there on that

Page 107.

White - Cross

corner. That's why we would like to find out when you said you were there.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor. He did not say that. He said he saw --

MR. JACKSON: The cab driver saw no one there.

MR. McGILL: Objection to his statements.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Can you tell us if, when the police car pulled the Volkswagen over, if you saw the cab come right afterwards?

MR. McGILL: Objection. She said she didn't know.

THE COURT: I have to sustain that.

MR. McGILL: Three times.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. At what point did you see the cab there?

A. When the police were there that's when I noticed.

Q. You hadn't seen it before then, had you?

A. I wasn't looking at the cab, looking for a cab.

Q. I understand you weren't looking for a cab. My

Page 108.

White - Cross

question is: You didn't see the cab before that time, did you?

A. No.

Q. So when you said that the cab was there earlier you don't know that for a fact at all?

A. Repeat that question.

Q. Yes. I withdraw the question.

Now, you indicated that when the shooting took place the driver was on the sidewalk with the police officer and the police officer appeared as if he was doing something. He had turned William Cook around; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you looked and you saw Mr. Jamal coming?

A. Yes.

Q. In the statement you gave to the police back on 12/9/81 Page 2, Mr. McGill, "Question: When did you first notice the man coming out the parking lot?

Answer: The police officer was on the sidewalk and the driver was in the street."

Do you remember that question and answer?

A. No.

Q. Is it true?

Page 109.

White - Cross

A. Is it there?

Q. Yes, it is. So if it's there it's the truth.

A. Can you repeat it again?

Q. Yes, ma'am. "When did you first notice the man coming out the parking lot?

Answer: The police officer was on the sidewalk and the driver was in the street."

MR. McGILL: May I, Your Honor?

THE COURT: All right.

THE WITNESS: That's on the second page?

MR. JACKSON: Yes, ma'am.

THE WITNESS: I don't see it.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? It's the wrong statement.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. See this question, that answer?

A. Okay.

Q. Is it the truth?

A. They were both on the sidewalk.

Q. Pardon me?

A. They were both on the sidewalk.

Q. The question is then, what appears in this

Page 110.

White - Cross

statement, is it true?

A. what part? Are you just talking --

Q. I'll ask you again so you'll know what part.

"Question: When did you first notice the man coming out of the parking lot?

Answer: The police officer was on the sidewalk and the driver was in the street."

Q. Is that true?

A. I just said they were both on the sidewalk.

Q. So this is untrue?

A. The question and answer?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. Yes.

Q. And that was your answer that you gave on December the 9th, isn't it?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, what reason did you have to lie to the police on that day?

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I What reason did you have to tell them something that wasn't true?

MR. McGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: If it's not true, Your

Page 111.

White - Cross

Honor --

THE COURT: Well, just a minute. It's for the jury to decide. Rephrase your question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You've indicated that the police officer and the driver were on the sidewalk; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So that this is wrong, right?

A. Yes.

Q. You read this statement on December the 9th; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And you signed it?

A. Yes.

Q. Indicating that it was true?

A. Yes.

Q. Six months later, today, you're going to come into court and say that it isn't true; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Let's get back to this. Both the driver and the police officer were on the pavement. The man you saw running across from the parking lot,

Page 112.

White Cross

if I recall your testimony, you saw him for a half second -- is that right? -- as he was coming across the street?

MR. McGILL: Objection. That was not her testimony.

THE COURT: Rephrase your question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. How long did you see him coming across the street?

A. You mean how long it took him to come across the street?

Q. No. How long did you observe him as he was running across the street?

A. Until the time he was practically on the curb.

Q. You watched him the entire time?

A. Yes.

Q. You're certain of that now?

A. Yes.

Q. You remember testifying, again, February 8, 1982 in this case?

A. Yes.

Q. Just a minute, Mr. McGill, until I find the page. Okay. Page looks like 55, yes, Page 55.

Page 113.

White - Cross

See if you recall these series of questions and answers by me directed toward you: "Now again"-- well, let me start by giving you a series of then. They start on Page 53, the bottom of the page, question by me, "Fine. Twenty-two feet. When you saw him there you saw him with a glance; is that right?

"(No response.)" There was some objection and discussion.

"Question: That's a fact; you glanced and you saw him? Isn't that correct?

"When I turned over that's what drew my attention." The Court indicates, "She said she glanced and saw him." Then Mr. McGill and I have some discussion.

Now on Page 55, top of the page, first question by me: "Now again, Miss Washington, you indicated that you glanced away -- Answer: Excuse me. Miss White.

"Question: I'm sorry. Miss White, you glance away from the Volkswagen driver and police for how long?

"Maybe a half second.

Page 114.

White - Cross

"Question: A half second?

"Yes.

And in that half second you saw the man with the dreadlocks running toward him; is that right?

"Answer: Yes." You remember that series of questions and answers?

A. Yes.

Q. So now you're saying -- my question to you, you're saying today that you followed him all the way from the parking lot to the scene of the shooting? Is that what you're saying today?

A. From the center of the parking lot when I first noticed him right until he got up on the curb.

Q. But your testimony here back on January 8 is that you glanced away for a half second from the police officer and the driver of the Volkswagen?

A. It didn't take him that long to run from the parking lot over to the curb.

Q. So you're saying that this man ran from this parking lot over to the curb in a half second?

A. Yes.

Q. He ran from the middle of that booth, half of

Page 115.

White - Cross

this parking lot, across Locust Street, aimed and fired in a half second?

A. Yes.

Q. Well, why is it that you said that you turned away for a second and you looked at the police officers, at the police officer, excuse me?

MR. McGILL: I would object to that. That's not so. Objection.

MR. JACKSON: Do you want me to read it? I can read it again.

THE COURT: Read it.

MR. JACKSON: Yes, sir.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Again I'll reread the question and answer: "And in that half second you saw the man with the dreadlocks running toward him; is that right? Answer: Yes."

Now you're saying to us today that you saw him run all the way from the middle of the parking lot, across Locust Street, to the curb in a half second?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you saw a gun in his hand in that half

Page 116.

White - Cross

second, as well; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. At what point did you notice that he had a gun in his hand?

A. In the middle of the street.

Q. So until that time did you notice anything at all about his hands?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did you see anything in his hands?

A. When?

Q. From the time he was running out? From the time that you first saw him. You said you didn't see the gun --

A. No.

Q. Did you see his hands before you saw the gun in his hand? Do you understand what I'm saying?

A. No.

Q. Did you see where he got the gun from?

A. No.

Q. You just saw it in the middle of the street that he had the gun?

A. Yes.

Q. About how far away was he?

A. From where?

Page 117.

White - Cross

Q. From you. I'm sorry.

A. Two and a half car lengths away.

Q. All right. I'm just asking, ma'am. Two and a half car lengths in the street; is that right? And that would be some place in the middle of the street here. This is the police car; this is the Volkswagen; this is Locust Street. He was about two and a half car lengths away from you. So you see where there's a "W" right now? Would that be approximately where it was that you saw the gun in his hand?

A. In the middle of the street.

Q. Yes, well that's in the middle of the street.

A. Yes.

Q. How could you tell it was a gun?

A. I could tell.

Q. How could you tell, ma'am? I mean, did you see the gun? It's a two-inch barrel gun so I'm wondering how you saw it, and it's at night.

A. I seen the barrel part.

Q. You saw --

A. The whatever you call it.

Q. Two and a half feet away -- I'm sorry. Two and

Page 118.

White - Cross

a half car lengths away?

A. Yes.

Q. Then you saw him come to the curb and you saw him fire; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Meanwhile what was William Cook doing during this period of time?

A. I don't know. I was watching him.

Q. Fine. I'm just asking you. What was the police officer doing?

A. At what time are you talking about?

Q. While you were looking at who you say is Mr. Jamal.

A. I don't know.

Q. I'm not arguing. I'm just asking you questions, ma'am. Did you see up to the point where the man reached the curb? Did you see the officer have any weapon in his hands at all?

A. No.

Q. Did you see William Cook with any weapon in his hand?

A. No.

Q. Did you notice either one of their hands up to

Page 119.

White Cross

this point?

A. Yes.

Q. So you know, in fact, that neither William Cook nor the police officer had anything in their hands?

A.Yes.

MR. McGILL: Objection. At what point?

MR. JACKSON: Up to the point where the man reached the curb, the man who had the gun reached the curb.

MR. McGILL: Objection, Your Honor. She's looking at the man who's running across --

THE COURT: Use his name.

MR. JACKSON: William Cook.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Up to the point where the man reached the curb, the man who had the gun, the man whom you say is Mr. Jamal, up to that point where he reached the curb, before the first shot was fired you never saw in fact, you're saying William Cook never had any thing in his hands?

A. At the time he was running across the street or

Page 120.

White Cross

before he ran across the street?

Q. Okay. At any point in time at or before the man whom you say is Mr. Jamal reached the curb, at or before, any time before then, did William Cook have anything in his hands?

A. Are you asking me before I seen him period?

Q. At any time before that? At any time before the man reached the curb did you see anything at all in William Cook's hands? Any time, I don't care whether it was -- well, any time before a 24-hour period of time?

A. What I'm asking you is, are you talking about when I noticed Jamal, and you're saying when he's on the curb.

Q. Yes. Well, you noticed Jamal before he reached the curb, you said?

A. Yes.

Q. So I'm saying, at the point where you claim Mr. Jamal reached the curb -- do you remember when you said Mr. Jamal got to the curb?

A. Yes.

Q. So I'm saying, before we go any further, before anything happens at that curb, I'm saying at any other

Page 121.

White - Cross

time when he was running across the parking lot when the police officer stopped William Cook did you see anything in William Cook's hands?

A. Before I seen Jamal, no.

Q. Before what?

A. Before I seen him, no.

MR. McGILL: Indicating the defendant with her finger.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see anything in the officer's hand?

A. Before I seen him, no.

MR. McGILL: Indicating the defendant.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. After you saw Mr. Jamal, whom you say is Mr. Jamal, did you see anything in William Cook's hand?

A. After I seen Mr. Jamal?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. I wasn't looking at him. I was watching him.

Q. The question is: Did you see anything in his hand? Yes, or no?

A. No.

Q. At no time -- is that right? -- before you left that scene never saw anything in William Cook's hand?

Page 122.

White - Cross

A. Before I left the scene?

Q. Sure. So in other words, I'm talking about the entire time that you saw William Cook there at that location, at 13th and Locust, did you ever see anything in William Cook's hand?

A. No.

Q. Now, did you ever see anything in the police officer's hand?

A. At what time are you talking about?

Q. At any time from the time you first saw the police officer until the time you left the scene did you see anything in the police officer's hand?

A. No.

Q. Did you lose sight of the police -- strike that -- William Cook at any time during -- strike that. I better do this in steps. You indicated that then the man who you say is Mr. Jamal came to the curb and he fired at the police officer, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Without argument we're going to accept whatever you tell us today. How many times did he fire?

A. At what time are you talking about?

Page 123.

White - Cross

Q. The first time?

A. One or two times.

Q. One or two times?

A. Right.

Q. You just can't remember whether it was one or two or three or four?

A No.

Q. After he fired one or two times the officer, as I understand your testimony, he fell backwards; is that right?

A. What I said was he turned around, staggered and fell.

Q. Okay. The first time I heard that was when you testified yesterday before --

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: All right. I'll go to the notes of testimony.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: I'll go to the notes of testimony.

THE COURT: GO to the notes of testimony.

Page 124.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Let me ask you this: Did you see at any time that after the shooting the officer simply fell backwards?

MR. MCGILL: Again, I would object, Your Honor. If he could look for it in the notes of testimony --

MR. JACKSON: All right. Your Honor, I'll take the time and look for it in the notes of testimony. Your Honor, may I have a moment because I think it's imperative that I find them?

MR. MCGILL: I'll withdraw the objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you recall testifying back on January the 8th, 1982 that after the shooting the officer fell backwards right away?

MR. MCGILL: I have to object to that.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you recall saying that the officer fell backwards?

Page 125.

White - Cross

A. I don't remember.

Q. Is that what happened?

A. I just told you what happened.

Q. So then if you or anyone else said that the officer fell backwards after being shot it would not be the truth; is that right?

A. He did fall but he staggered, you know.

Q. No, I don't know, ma'am. Tell me.

A. I just did. He did fall back but he staggered.

Q. When you demonstrated to Mr. McGill you indicated that the officer turned around and staggered?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that what you're saying now? Not only did he stagger but he turned around as well?

A. Yes.

Q. How long after the shooting was it before the officer fell to the ground?

A. How long after the shooting?

Q. Yes, after the first one or two shots.

A. Two seconds.

Q. How far did the officer stagger?

A. A little then he fell.

Q. Pardon me?

Page 126.

White - Cross

A. A little. I don't know.

Q. A couple of feet, between here and this table?

A. No.

Q. Further than that?

A. Closer.

Q. Closer than that?

A. Yeah, it wasn't that far.

Q. Well, using this table, again --

A. I can't see the end of the table.

MR. JACKSON: I think this is approximately two and a half feet, would you say, Mr. McGill, from here to the edge of the table?

MR. McGILL: Yes.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. About two and a half feet he staggered and fell?

A. I say about that.

Q. You say about that, two and a half feet. Okay. Now, this shooting happened between what two cars?

A. The Volkswagen and the police car.

Q. And when he fell where did he fall?

Page 127.

White - Cross

A. By the other car.

Q. Pardon me?

A. Closer to the other car.

Q. What's the other car?

A. The car that was in front of the Volkswagen.

Q. So that if the shooting happened between the police, I'm sorry, right here between the police car and the Volkswagen, and the shooting happened here, as you said, and he staggered two and a half feet, you're saying that he staggered two and a half feet towards the front of the Volkswagen?

A. Yes.

Q. Two and a half feet. Are you saying, in effect then because the officer was found here between these two cars, are you saying that a Volkswagen is two and a half feet in length?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, sir.

BY MR. JACKSON:

A. I don't know.

Page 128.

White - Cross

Q. You don't know where he was picked up?

A. He was picked up and carried?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. I told you where he was at.

Q. Tell me again.

A. He was closer to the other car.

Q. Closer to the other car? You're talking about the Ford?

A. He was in between both of the cars but closer to the other car.

Q. Could you demonstrate, because I'm misunderstanding you? Could you come down, please, and demonstrate, point it out? Would you stand a little bit to the side so the jury can see where you're pointing? You're indicating, if I understand you correctly, that the shooting happened between the police car and the Volkswagen; is that correct?

A. Yeah.

Q. Right about here. And after the shooting happened tell us again what happened. Want to use a pencil?

MR. MCGILL: You don't have to mark it.

Page 129

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: No, you don't have to mark it. Just point it out. Stand a little bit to the side so the jury can see. Start it from the point where you say the shooting happened.

THE WITNESS: He turned around, he staggered --

MR. JACKSON: No, you have to speak up so the jury can hear as well, while you're pointing, if you don't mind.

THE WITNESS: He was here --

MR. JACKSON: Can you hear that? Fine. Go on.

THE WITNESS: -- and he turned around and staggered and fell, fell like laying this way. So it was like closer to the Ford than the Volkswagen.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. But wasn't the officer between the Volkswagen and the point where he was picked up?

A. He was closer to the Ford than the Volkswagen. I'm not saying that he wasn't between them.

Q. Okay. He was closer to the Ford than the

Page 130.

White - Cross

Volkswagen. What you're saying is, although the shooting happened between the police car and the Volkswagen, he staggered the entire length of the Volkswagen before he fell? Is that what you're saying?

A. No.

Q. Well, tell us how he got from this position to that position.

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Let her finish.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you if you were going to say something more. Please go on. Tell us.

A. I just told you.

Q. Tell us how the police officer got from between the Volkswagen and the police car to the position where you said he was closer to the Ford?

A. He staggered and he fell but he was laid out so the body, some of his body, was closer to the Ford than the Volkswagen.

Q. Okay. Okay. Fine. You can return to your seat. Now, let's return to January the 8th, 1982,

Page 131.

White - Cross

Page 78, the last comment by the witness. The witness is you. "When the gun had fired the officer got hit in the back. You could tell he got hit in the back. He fell, you know."

By me, "Question: Fine. The officer fell forward?

"Answer: No.

"Question: To the side?

"Answer: He fell on his back.

"Question: He fell backwards to the man with the gun?

"Answer: Yes.

"Question: Fell right away?

"No.

"Did he stand? How long did he stand up?

"It was not that long, maybe a second.

"Maybe a second?

"Maybe a half second."

Do you recall that question and answer?

A. Yes.

Page 132.

White - Cross

Q. Indicating that he fell backwards?

A. Yes.

Q. But now you're saying that he turned before he fell backwards?

A. Yes. I never did say that he didn't turn and fall backwards.

Q. Okay. I didn't know that. Okay. All right. When you saw the first or second shot or one or two shots fired, I believe you claimed -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- strike that. You saw the first or second shot, one or two shots fired, within a second or a half second the officer turned and fell, right?

A. Right.

Q. Do you know during this time that these one or two shots were fired what William Cook was doing?

A. No.

Q. The man that you were talking to earlier who left you, who you know or don't know, where was he?

A. I don't know.

Q. You have no idea at all?

A. No. He didn't walk that way. He didn't walk passed me.

Page 133.

White - Cross

Q. How do you know?

A. Because I would have seen him. He would have been in my view.

Q. Why? You said that you were watching William Cook when you saw Mr. Jamal so how do you know the other man wasn't there?

A. Because if he would have walked passed, he would have been blocking my view from seeing Jamal.

Q. Well, was there anybody blocking your view?

A. No.

Q. You didn't see a cab driver out there blocking your view?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. At what point?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. At the point of the shooting. Did you see the cab driver out there on the pavement?

A. When the officer got shot?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. No.

Q. You claim after the one or two shots were fired the officer fell and the man stood over the officer, and shot some more; is that right?

Page 134.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. While you were watching that did you see a cab driver or anybody else?

A. No. I was watching him.

Q. You were just watching him?

A. Yes.

MR. MCGILL: Indicating the defendant.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. And you were watching him from that same position at 13th and Locust?

A. Yes.

Q. And you don't know whether or not the cab was there at that point, do you?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Repetition.

MR. JACKSON: I'll withdraw that.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. But you're certain no one else was on that sidewalk except William Cook, the police officer and Jamal?

A. Yes.

Q. You're absolutely certain?

A. That was standing there?

Q. Standing, walking, moving or doing anything else at all on the sidewalk, ma'am?

Page 135.

White -Cross

A. Yes.

Q. The man who you know kind of, sort of, who left you at that corner, have you seen him since this incident?

A. No.

Q. Haven't seen him at all.

A. No.

Q. Haven't talked to him?

A. No.

Q. Have you looked for him?

A. No.

Q. Has anyone asked You about him?

MP. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor, irrelevant.

THE COURT: I'm going to sustain it.

MR. JACKSON : Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. When the officer fell to the ground and the shooting, three or four shots, were fired, after that you couldn't see that shooting, right?

MR. MCGILL: Excuse me? Objection. At what point?

Page 136.

White - Cross

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. When you claim the man was standing over top of the officer firing three or four times you didn't see it, right?

A. Didn't see him shoot the officer?

Q. Yes, ma'am. You know what I mean when I say to shoot? It means to fire --

MR. MCGILL: Objection. I think she's trying to answer.

THE: WITNESS: What I seen, him standing over, seeing the gun where I was standing, and he was looking like this down at the officer.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You could see the gun?

A. I could see the front of the gun.

Q. You could?

A. Yes.

Q. You remember testifying back on January the 8th, 1982 -- Your Honor, may I have a moment, again, please?

Before I do that, are you certain

Page 137.

White - Cross

you saw the gun?

A. I seen the front part. I didn't see the whole gun.

Q. While I'm doing this, Miss White, you indicated that you saw a little bit of the gun while the man was standing over the officer; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. You see the flash come out of the gun?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Isn't it a fact, Miss White, that all you did was hear three or four shots?

A. I seen him put his hand like this.

MR. MCGILL: Indicating right hand pointing finger three times in the direction of the ground.

THE WITNESS: And I also heard the shots.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You also what?

A. Heard the shots.

Q. But you don't recall whether or not there was any flash?

A. No, I don't.

Page 138.

White - Cross

Q. Do you know which direction the gun was pointed?

A. Down.

Q. But you didn't see the flash?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Do you know if it was towards the officer?

A. Yes.

Q. You saw the officer?

A. I could see his -- the feet part of the officer.

Q. And at that point, at that very point, while he was firing down, as you said, what if anything did you see Billy Cook doing, William Cook?

A. I wasn't looking that way.

Q. So do you know in fact that William Cook wasn't firing them?

A. He.didn't have anything in his hands.

Q. How do you know? You said that you were watching Mr. Jamal?

A. I'm talking about from the time that I seen him before I watched Mr. Jamal he didn't have anything in his hands.

Q. So did you see whether or not he took something out from his pocket, from his chest, from anywhere?

A. No.

Page 139.

White - Cross

Q. So you don't know?

A. No.

Q. The man that was with you, do you know if he I was doing any shooting?

A. If he was I think I would have heard him right in my ear because I'm pretty sure he was close by me.

Q. Before when I was trying to find out where he was you didn't know where he was, but now you're saying you're sure he was close by?

A. He didn't walk passed me.

Q. Would you indulge us for one moment, Your Honor? All right. Ma'am, now after you saw this shooting with the officer on the ground you then moved closer; is that right?

A. No.

Q. So up until the time that the man was over top of the officer you never moved from your position? Is that what you're saying?

A. Yes.

Q. And approximately how far away were you while you were making all of those observations of the shooting?

Page 140.

White - Cross

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Repetitious.

THE COURT: I will sustain the objection. You already indicated that.

MR. JACKSON: She indicated she was two and a half car lengths away --

THE COURT: That's right.

MR. JACKSON: -- when she first saw him in the street, Your Honor.

THE COURT: No, not that, too.

MR. JACKSON: My apologies. I'm sorry.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. All right. You were two and a half car lengths away; is that right?

A Yes.

Q. And while you were watching the shooting take place you saw the shooter's back: is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. The police officer was on his back: is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Only other person that was there was William Cook, and you don't know that for certain since you

Page 141.

White - Cross

weren't watching him at that point: is that right?

A. Yes.

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. After the shooting where did the shooter move? Did he walk?

A. He didn't get up and walk. He went over and slumped down on the curb.

Q. Describe to us as best as you can what you saw him do after he fired, at least what you assumed to be the shooting of the last shot into the officer?

A. He just went over --

Q. When you say; "Went over," could you tell us in terms of distance or direction?

A. To the side of the officer and like slumped down on the curb.

Q. And that was right between the Volkswagen and the Ford?

A. Yes.

Q. So that when he first came between the police car and the Volkswagen and did the shooting; when the police staggered over he followed the officer in effect, right?

Page 142.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. He pursued the officer?

A. What you mean?

Q. He followed him? He walked after him? Ran after him, or something, moved towards the officer?

A. After he shot and the officer fell then he came over.

Q. Okay. And then -- by the way, you're still two and a half car lengths away?

A. Yes.

Q. Then is that when you moved forward when he sat on the curb?

A. No.

Q. What did you then do after you saw the man sit on the curb?

A. I started to scream and I put my hand over my mouth, and I just stood there.

Q. You didn't scream, though?

A. I said I was like screaming but put my hand over my mouth.

Q. The question is: Did you or didn't you?

A. I started to.

Q. Started to? Did you or didn't you, ma'am?

Page 143.

White - Cross

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: I don't know what you mean.

MR. MCGILL: Three times she answered started to and started to and started to.

THE COURT: Objection overruled.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. So you just stood there silently doing nothing: is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Still no one else was on the sidewalk?

A. No.

Q. Where was William Cook?

A. He was back towards Jamal.

Q. Are you sure?

A. Yes.

Q. Where was the man that you were with?

A. I don't know.

Q. Are you certain you don't know where he was?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

Page 144.

White - Cross

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you know where the cab driver was?

A. No.

Q. All right. After you stood there and you started to scream did you move forward then?

A. No.

Q. At what point did you move forward then?

A. When the police came.

Q. Now, the man you said shot the police officer, when he sat down by the curb between the Volkswagen and the Ford he would have then been two and a half car lengths ahead of you, wouldn't he?

A. Repeat that again.

Q. Sure. If you saw the shooting from two and a half car lengths away -- the shooting happened between the police car and the Volkswagen. Now we understand and we know from physical evidence that Mr. Jamal and the police officer were found between the Volkswagen and the Ford. So the question is: You were then three and a half car lengths away at the time that this man, who you said did the shooting, sat down by the curb?

A. No. It was -- no.

Page 144.

White - Cross

Q. Correct?

A. No, I wasn't three and a half car lengths away.

Q. Tell me how far, then?

A. It was the same distance but about a feet or two different.

Q. How could it be the same distance, ma'am, if the shooting happened between these two cars and this is where he was found, Mr. Jamal was found, seated and this is where the police officer was found? So it can't be the same place.

A. I said there's a difference of feet.

Q. One foot?

A. One or two feet.

Q. One foot?

A. One or two feet, I said.

Q. I wouldn't debate the point with you, ma'am. After you saw the officer fall, Mr. Jamal and/or the other person at the curb, what, if anything, did you then do?

A. Repeat the question.

Q. Sure. After the shooting is over what did you then do?

A. I answered that question before.

Page 146.

White - Cross

Q. Forgive me. Tell me again, please.

A. I said I started screaming. I put my hand over my mouth and I just stood there.

Q. After that?

A. Yes.

Q. What I mean after that what did you do?

A. I stood there. I was watching.

Q. Did you do anything else?

A. No.

Q. Did you -- I thought at some point in time you told Mr. McGill you moved forward.

A. Yes.

Q. When?

A. When the police came.

Q. How far did you move?

A. I moved up I don't know how many feet it was.

Q. How many police were on the scene when you moved up?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Would you approximate for us?

A. I don't remember.

Q. Any police have their guns out?

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, I would

Page 147.

White - Cross

object. This area had been covered yesterday.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. JACKSON: Not by me, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes, it has.

MR. JACKSON: It was only with regard to the statements, Your Honor.

THE COURT: It was covered by you.

MR. JACKSON: Only with regard to her statements.

THE COURT: I said it was covered by you.

MR. JACKSON: But only what she put in the statement, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That area has been covered by you. All right. Move forward, please.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You saw no officers with their guns out: is that right?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may we see you at side bar briefly?

THE COURT: Yes.

Page 148.

White - Cross

MR. MCGILL: Your Honor, at this point could Miss White have an opportunity to have a little recess?

(A side bar conference was held on the record as follows:)

MR. JACKSON: Judge, I want you to correct me if I'm wrong, but I specifically -- because I knew that this might be a point -- I specifically referred her to statements only. I didn't get into -- I didn't cross-examine what the testimony was on direct.

THE COURT: Yes --

MR. JACKSON: Only the statement.

THE COURT: -- I remember you going over it yesterday. You've gone over and over it. We've gone over most of this stuff. I 've given you a lot of leeway.

MR. JACKSON: I know you have, Judge.

THE COURT: It has to be some time now --

MR. JACKSON: I'm almost done. I only cross-examined on her statements.

THE COURT: Where are we going to

Page 149.

White - Cross

go now?

MR. JACKSON: Just going to clean up, find out what she saw and that's it.

MR. MCGILL: You mean you're going to go through the alleged beating again?

MR. JACKSON: No.

MR. MCGILL: That's the area that's been covered.

MR. JACKSON: No, no, no, no.

MR. MCGILL: That was my objection.

MR. JACKSON: We're going to see whether, in fact, she lost sight of him. I am not going through that again.

THE COURT: She answered that question.

MR. JACKSON: I should be done with her in about 15 minutes.

THE COURT: You had gone through that yesterday about her going up to him.

(Side bar conference ended.)

(A discussion was held off the record.)

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, may

Page 150.

White - Cross

Theresa talk to Mr. Jamal?

THE COURT: Ask the sheriff.

(A short recess was taken.)

MR. JACKSON: Just to bring us back, could you give me the last question and answer, please?

(The following was read back by the reporter as follows:)

Q. You saw no officers with their guns out; is that right?

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. At the time when the police arrived where was William Cook?

A. He was towards the wall.

Q. Pardon me?

A. Towards the wall.

Q. Just standing there?

A. Yeah.

Q. Did you see him move from the wall at any time?

A. When the police took him.

Q. Other than that did you see him move?

A. He backed up a little bit more to the wall.

Q. To the wall?

Page 151.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

MR. JACKSON: Excuse me one moment?

(A discussion was held off the record.)

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. May I have this marked as Defense Exhibit II, please? Miss White, would you please take a look at that photograph? You notice whose picture that is?

A. That's William Cook.

Q. And what does the picture show?

A. Look like he was hit behind the ear.

Q. Did you see anything behind the ear?

A. No, 'cause I looked across the street.

Q. So you're saying that the only time that you looked away from him was that half second, right?

A. When Mr. Jamal was running, yes.

Q. Well, there was no one else on the sidewalk, was there, other than Mr. Jamal, Mr. Cook and the police officer; is that right?

A. Right.

Q. So can you account for how he was injured?

Page 152.

White - Cross

A. I don't know.

Q. Pardon?

A. I don't know how.

Q. Did you ever see Mr. Jamal shot? See anyone shooting?

A. No.

Q. Can you account for how he was shot?

A. Can you explain that?

Q. Sure. You know Mr. Jamal was shot, don't you?

A. I found out later.

Q. You found out later. But in your entire length of direct and cross-examination you never told us how he was shot. Could you tell us how he was shot?

A. I don't know.

Q. Have no idea?

A. I didn't see.

Q. Do you know if your friend on the corner shot him?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sustained.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you know if William Cook shot him?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

Page 153.

White - Cross

THE COURT: I have to sustain that objection.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see any police officer shoot him?

A. No.

Q. When the police officers arrived after this shooting was supposed to have occurred did you see or hear any police officers shoot him?

A. Can you repeat that again, please?

Q. Sure. When the police officers arrived immediately after the shooting of Officer Faulkner did you see any police officers shoot, or did you hear any shots?

A. No.

Q. All of the shots that you've described to this jury are the shots that you said that Mr. Jamal made; is that right?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

MR. JACKSON: I'm asking. Well, I ask the question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Were there any other shots other than those that you said Mr. Jamal fired? Were there any other

Page 154.

White - Cross

shots fired?

MR. MCGILL: Again, objection. She testified to the shots that she heard and saw.

MR. JACKSON: Your Honor, Mr. McGill is testifying, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Well, will you ask your question again, Mr. Jackson?

MR. JACKSON: Sure.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Miss White, you said that the man who came across the street, he fired once or twice: is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And then you saw him shoot three or four times and you demonstrated how many times you saw his hand go back and forth; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear any shots in which there was no motion?

A. At what time are you talking about?

Q. At any time.

A. I don't remember. I don't remember.

Q. You don't remember. Did you see anyone run from

Page 155.

White - Cross

the scene?

A. No.

Q. That's absolute? You're sure?

A. Yes.

Q. When the police arrived after the shooting did they in any way obstruct your vision of Mr. Jamal at the curb? Do you know what I mean by that?

A. No.

Q. What I mean by obstruct, did they get in your way so that you couldn't see Mr. Jamal?

A. No.

Q. Now, even though he was on the curb between the Volkswagen and the Ford you're saying that you had a clear vision of him at all times?

A. While he was sitting on the curb?

Q. Yes, ma'am.

A. Yes.

Q. Well, is there some other time that you did not have a clear vision of him?

A. When they started taking him towards the wagon I was trying to tell the police what I had seen, and when I look back over he was partially to the wagon.

Q. And so you didn't see them actually pick him

Page 156.

White - Cross

up?

A. What do you mean?

Q. Did you see the police when they picked him up to take him to the wagon?

A. When they started to, yes.

Q. When they started to?

A. When they, you know, picked him up and then I went over to start telling the police.

Q. You saw them drag him, though, didn't you?

A. What I seen was them taking him to the wagon the best way they could because he wouldn't walk.

Q. My question is: Did you see them dragging him?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. Objection. She did respond.

THE WITNESS: I did.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Did you see his hand run into a pole?

A. No.

Q. You say it didn't happen, or you didn't see it?

A. I didn't see it.

Q. One other question. Maybe just a couple more. When the shooting happened of the man shooting the

Page 157.

White - Cross

police officer, while he was on the sidewalk William Cook was directly behind the officer; is that correct?

A. Repeat that again.

Q. Sure. You said the man came across the street to the curb; he fired the weapon once or twice at the officer; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the officer -- you told Mr. McGill that the man was within 12 inches of the police officer; is that right? Or you correct me. How close was the shooter to the police officer?

A. He wasn't that far.

Q. How far? I thought -- you correct me -- I thought you told Mr. McGill on direct examination that he was 12 inches --

A. I didn't tell him exactly. I believe I showed him, if I'm not mistaken.

Q. Show us. Show us again, please. Can you do it with your hands if you know the distance?

A. A couple feet.

Q. A couple feet. This far, or shorter?

A. A little shorter.

Q. Like this?

Page 158.

White - Cross

A. Yes.

Q. That close?

A. Yes.

MR. MCGILL: Indicating about a foot and a half.

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. Yes.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. See if, you recall this question and answer, Page 75 notes of testimony of the preliminary hearing dated January 8, 1982. Question at the top of the page, first question, "By Mr. Jackson" me. "Question: Now, you said the weapon fired: is that right?

"Answer: Yes, sir."

MR. MCGILL: Excuse me. What page again?

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry. Page 75, top of the page.

MR. MCGILL: Thank you.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. For context, "Question: Now, you said the weapon fired; is that right?

"Answer: Yes, sir.

"At the first shooting he was about

Page 159.

White - Cross

six feet away; is that right?

"Answer: Yes, I guess."

You said back on January 8th he was six feet away?

A. I'm not good at feet or foot. As you can see, I can't tell.

Q. Well, a foot and a half is like this, you've just demonstrated. You're saying you don't know the difference between a foot and a half and six feet?

A. I'm not good at feet or foot.

Q. I'm asking you. Do you know the difference between one and a half feet and six feet?

A. No.

Q. You don't?

A. No.

Q. So that everything that you've told us in court today and yesterday with regard to distance is a guess on your part?

A. Yes.

Q. And in fact, you don't know whether any of those distances were closer or further away?

A. I know they were closer or further away but I don't know feet and foot.

Page 160.

White - Cross

Q. Well, feet is two foot. Okay? But I'm saying one and a half feet is certainly a lot smaller than six feet, would you agree?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know. You indicated when we were talking about heights and distances when I asked you about Prince, I think you said he's six feet tall: is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And I asked you if you consider him tall, and you said yes; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, you gave a description to the police that the man who shot the officer was short: is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Jamal, would you stand up, please? Is Mr. Jamal short?

A. He's not tall.

Q. After the shooting I still want to know how far beyond the police officer was William Cook?

A. Repeat that.

Page 161.

White - Cross

Q. Sure. At the curb the man came and shot; the police officer was anywhere from six feet to 12 inches away. We won't debate that. After the police officer was shot where was William Cook? He was on the other side of the police officer, right?

A. (No response.)

Q. Still don't understand?

A. No, I don't.

Q. You said that when the man came to shoot the police officer he had just turned William Cook around; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. And he had William Cook's hands behind him; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. So was the officer in contact, physical contact, was he touching William Cook when he was shot in the back?

A. I don't know.

Q. You don't know?

A. I don't remember.

Q. You don't know where William Cook was, then?

MR. MCGILL: Objection. That's not

Page 162.

White - Cross

what she said. She said she did not know whether the defendant, excuse me, whether the police officer was in contact with Mr. Cook.

THE COURT: Rephrase it.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. You don't know whether Officer Faulkner was in contact with William Cook but do you know how far away William Cook was from the officer? Whether he was touching him or not we won't get into. But do you know how far away he was?

A. That's feet and inches and foot again. I don't know.

Q. Okay. Assuming for a moment that from the firing of the officer, where the officer was shot, assuming the bullet would keep on going, would William Cook be in the firing -- in that same direction as the officer?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Do you understand?

MR. MCGILL: Objection.

MR. JACKSON: I'm simply trying to orient her.

Page 163.

White - Cross

THE COURT: I sustain that question.

MR. MCGILL: It's an impossible question.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. So that I am clear, if the officer is here, the shooter is here -- you follow me so far?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Cook, William Cook, was on the other side of the officer -- is that right? -- next to the wall or near the wall?

A. Yes.

Q. So then he would have been in a straight line to the shooter?

MR. MCGILL: Objection, Your Honor. It depends on too many variables. I object to that. It's an impossible question.

MR. JACKSON: It's not.

THE COURT: Rephrase the question, counsel.

BY MR. JACKSON:

Q. Can you tell us as best as you can where the relative positions of each of those three persons were? You had William Cook, you had the police officer

Page 164.

White - Cross

and you had the shooter. Were they in a triangular shape, were they right in a row, side by side, zigzag? Tell us.

A. He was at an angle.

Q. What kind of angle, please?

A. Police officer was here.

Q. You have to speak up now.

A. The police officer was standing here and William Cook to an angle.

Q. To the right, or to the left?

A. I don't remember. It was to an angle.

MR. JACKSON: No further questions at this time, Your Honor.

MR. MCGILL: May I redirect, if Your Honor pleases?

THE COURT: Go ahead.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. One, two, three, that's the first statement, second statement and third statement. For the record, I was showing the witness where the statements were in sequence in the book.

Page 165.

White - Redirect

Q. All right. Miss White, you have before you the statements that you gave to the police; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm referring to the first statement which is December the 9th, 1981. Do you have that in front of you?

A. Yes.

Q. I'm going to ask you if you recall giving these answers to the questions that I posed to you at the time. All right.

A. Yes.

Q. "Question: Did you see anything unusual happen outside this morning?

"Yes, I saw a police officer pull over a Volkswagen. One guy was in the Volkswagen. The police officer got out of the car and went over to the Volkswagen. When he got out to the Volkswagen the driver of the Volkswagen got out. They both walked towards the police car. They got to the front of the car. Another guy came running out of the parking lot on Locust Street. He had a handgun in his hand. He fired the gun at the police officer

Page 166.

White - Redirect

about four or five times. The police officer fell to the ground. I started screaming. The guy who shot the police officer was sitting on the curb."

Skipping down five sentences, "The police handcuffed the man who was sitting on the curb, the man who shot the officer."

Starting on Page 2, "Can you describe" --

MR. JACKSON: Excuse me just a moment, Mr. McGill.

MR. MCGILL: Page 2.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. Go on. I'm sorry.

MR. MCGILL: I'm reading portions of the statement, not the entire statement.

MR. JACKSON: Fine.

BY MR. MCGILL:

Q. Starting on Page 2, are you with me on Page 2?

A. Yes.

Q. First of all, do you recall giving that answer to that question? The one I just read?

A. Yes.

A. All right. On Page 2, "Can you describe the man you saw get out of the Volkswagen?

Page 167.

White - Redirect

"He was a black male, about 27 years, dark complexion, five eight wearing his hair in dread locks with a tam cap on. I think I saw him before one of the stands at 16th and Chestnut by the movies selling scarfs and hats" --