posted February 26, 2004 07:07 PM            

And if we throw out the ?paper? requirements and look for the earliest example of sequential art telling a long, involved story, we could go right to Trajan?s Column in Rome, which was completed about 155 A.D., as I recall.

Food for thought.

Russ Maheras [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi Russ,
You are making a lot of sense.

I was buying GSW from Kyle wholesale and then re-selling them at comicons back in the day - and even more so when we opened the Comics & Comix chain store operation beginning on Telegraph Ave in Berkeley starting in August 1972,

back in the day when Prof Don Ault was still teaching Carl Barks upper division English Lit course at UC-Berkeley, a course i tried to audit as a non-UC-student, but was told it was plumb full and a waiting list to boot - and stupidly did not ask Don myself if i could sit thru his Barks class. Still kicks after all these decades. We sold a lot of Barks comic books to UC-Berkeley students - i personally have read every Barks story ever printed.

All of his Donald Duck one shots could qualify as "graphic novels" in their sweep and majesty in m eye. Old Castle's Secret? Lost in the Andes? Ancient Persia? and the band played on -

Heck, the famous Ditko/Lee two and a half year Doctor Strange story telling arc in Strange Tales could qualify back in 1964-66. I read em as the story unfolded and eagerly awaited each installment as it saw print.

Back on topic, Richard Kyle, along with Fred Patten as co-editor and co-writer of Graphic Story World, were the ones who taught so many of us 1960s organized comics fans getting the Rocket's Blast Comicollector (RBCC) advertising magazine way back when to think in terms of "graphic story-telling-novel-like" concepts.

It was a sad day when Kyle stopped GSW which had evolved into the name Wonderworld. Graphic Story World led to Inside Comics 1974-75, Joe Brancatelli's seminal prozine examining the then world of comics outside the super hero box as well as inside it. It lasted but four issues and then the staid The Comic Reader expanded its coverage of what was going on and that lasted to about 1980.

bob beerbohm

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posted February 26, 2004 07:49 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Beerbohm:
All of his Donald Duck one shots could qualify as "graphic novels" in their sweep and majesty in m eye. Old Castle's Secret? Lost in the Andes? Ancient Persia? and the band played on -

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Actually, we're on the same page about that! Barks' great duck adventure stories were the first "graphic novel"-type stories to pop into my mind. But they were pre-dated by the Torch/Sub-Mariner battle, so I ended up using that as my main example.

And I do miss "Graphic Story World." I still have two or three issues laying around. It was a great 'zine!

Take is easy, Bob!

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posted February 27, 2004 12:07 AM            

I had a weird conversation last week at the CAA with an artist--a graphic artist, actually--who turned out to be an occasional reader of comics. After we discussed minis and alternative comics, she asked me, "And how about graphic novels? Do you read graphic novels?" I was a bit confused, since I thought that some of the things we had already discussed were graphic novels, and just gave my usual answer of "well, I still like to call them comics, but I guess 'graphic novel' as a term has helped their mainstream acceptance, bla bla bla." What I soon learned she meant by the term, however, was things like "Sandman," "Preacher," and "The Books of Magic." It seems like a weird distinction to me, but I wonder if it's not one that's quite widespread amongst the general public.

In any case, I should add, it was nice meeting someone who is neither a complete freak about comics (as all of us on this board are), nor completely dismisses them as juvenile stuff, but has a healthy interest in them, as she has in current novels or movies. THAT's the kind of reader who will help comics break out of their subcultural ghetto.

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posted February 27, 2004 01:03 AM            

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I've just read the last few days' exchange on this subject on the comixscholars list. It's funny that most of the points made there--except for Bob's detailed clarifications--were already made here months ago. Don't those folks ever read the TCJ boards?

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posted February 27, 2004 01:23 AM            

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Originally posted by Andrei Molotiu:
What I soon learned she meant by the term, however, was things like "Sandman," "Preacher," and "The Books of Magic."

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She equates "graphic novels" only with Vertigo comics?

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posted February 27, 2004 07:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ Maheras:
Actually, we're on the same page about that! Barks' great duck adventure stories were the first "graphic novel"-type stories to pop into my mind. But they were pre-dated by the Torch/Sub-Mariner battle, so I ended up using that as my main example.

And I do miss "Graphic Story World." I still have two or three issues laying around. It was a great 'zine!

Take is easy, Bob!

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Easy is almost my middle name these days -

And right you are - the famous Torch Subby battle issue in #5 does predate all of Barks comicbook work - i was just adding to yer thought. The HT/SM battle was reputed to have been started and finished over a single week end to hit the deadline Goodman needed - making it all the more remarkable. Wish i had one again -

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posted February 27, 2004 07:05 AM            

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Originally posted by Jesse Hamm:
She equates "graphic novels" only with Vertigo comics?

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I would venture a guess she mentioned titles easily available at most Barnes & Nobles or Borders type book stores. Most civilian-type people are uncomfortable with many to most comic book stores still to this day - and especially females for obvious reasons widely discussed over the past twenty years

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posted February 27, 2004 07:09 AM            

Either term works for me - its just that i have lived with the terms involving "graphic" since the 1960s when first introduced to them thru Richard Kyle's writings.

When Kyle opened his comic book store in Beach California, it was called Graphic Story Bookstore, if i remember correctly - which he opened with Fred Patten after we got Comics & Comix up & moving

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posted February 27, 2004 07:22 AM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by Andrei Molotiu:
Back on the topic of nomenclature, I'm not sure why we should so quickly dismiss (as Benjamin did much earlier--yes, yes, it's been kind of eating at me since) Martin Vaughn-James' term of "visual novel." After all, though the word choice is not exactly the same, it bespeaks the same intention--of finding a label for a long-form sequential art narrative, and particularly a label that suggests such narratives could equal the ambitious scope of a text novel. Having established that, the choice of "graphic" vs. "visual" seems less important to me--though as we all know by now, of course, "graphic" won out in the end.

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I certainly agree that "visual novel," like "graphic novel," is part of the story about "finding a label for a long-form sequential art narrative." We know, for instance, that Steranko's Chandler: Red Tide was published with "visual novel" on the cover and "graphic novel" in the intro. And Domingos has pointed out that Bloodstar, which was identified on/in the book as a "graphic novel," was advertised (in one place, at least) as "The World's First Comic Art Novel!" Given such facts, one might want to argue that what ambitious publishers of long-form comics basically did in 1975/1976 was to throw a bunch of terms for their "new form" of comics at the public and that "graphic novel" was the one that (eventually) stuck. Okay, so what made "graphic novel" stick? Could it have been the 1978 softcover publication and rapturous critical reception of Will Eisner's A Contract with God (the edition with "graphic novel" on the cover)? A story like that might make everyone happy. LOL!

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posted February 27, 2004 07:26 AM            

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Beerbohm:
Either term works for me - its just that i have lived with the terms involving "graphic" since the 1960s when first introduced to them thru Richard Kyle's writings.

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I am sorry to have to keep insisting on this, but for the purposes of this topic, it's not a matter of what term works for you or for Andrei or for me or for anyone else. Rather, it's a matter of the history of the various terms.

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posted February 27, 2004 03:50 PM            

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As a curio: Martin Vaughn-James called Elephant (1970) a Boovie.

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posted February 27, 2004 04:24 PM            

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No entry found for boovie.

Did you mean bovie?

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quote:

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No entry found for visual novel.

Try looking up each word separately:

visual
novel

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quote:

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1 entry found for graphic novel.

graphic novel

n. A novel whose narrative is related through a combination of text and art, often in comic-strip form.

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posted March 05, 2004 09:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Benjamin D. Brucke:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robert Beerbohm:
[b]Either term works for me - its just that i have lived with the terms involving "graphic" since the 1960s when first introduced to them thru Richard Kyle's writings.

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I am not sure i sent this in to this list, but below is the definitive earliest beginnings of the graphic story novel term origins. Most of this transpired while i was part of the (semi)organized comics fandom movement beginning 1966:

Töpffer definitely created the modern long-form graphic story telling comic strip concept as applies to what they then called "Gypsography" and what we call paper-transfer lithography allowing a person to draw onto the printing surface non-mirror reverse. Töpffer supplied a key technological contribution to enable a wider audience aprticipation reading words & pictures he invented new terms for himself.

The earliest i have encountered the term "graphic novel" is when it gets used in Fantasy Illustrated #5 Spring 1966 in a letter by Henry Steele, 312-C Lovett hall, Rice Univesity, Houston Texas, discussing Richard Kyle's Graphic Story Review column debut in Fantasy Illustrated #4 Summer 1965 with

"....I'm impressed by the suggestion that very long graphic stories would better exploit the artistic possibilities of the medium. Do you envisiage the publication of hard-cover "graphic novels" of several hundred pages, not on a periodical basis, but as individual publishing ventures like conventional novels?

"Will these be by a single artist, or a staff?.....how great is the reader's capacity to absorb all the stimuli from several hundred pages of a graphic story at a sitting?......"

It is a long letter bringing up a host of aspects. Earliest useage of the exact term graphic novel in English language printed page concepts i have come across in all my years studying all this stuff.

My first issue of Fantasy Illustrated was #6 Summer 1966, bought when it was fairly new, before #7 Spring 1967 had come out, sometime in late 1966 when i first encountered and joined into organized comics fandom by subscribing to Rocket's Blast*Comicollector (RBCC).

George Metzger began his Master Tyme and Mobius Tripp series in FI #7. Both #6 and #7 expand upon the discussion thread first "posted" by Kyle in #4, then #5 and the response letters of comment which began in #5 as well. My #6 issue contains the original first flyer for Wally Wood's Witzend magazine

With #8 Bill Spicer evolved the name of this seminal zine to Graphic Story Magazine replete with George Metzger's first cover for that zine and another interior story.

Bud Plant introduced me to George Metzger downtown San Jose California one day during the time span we were room mates in that city 1972-73. George was also getting published in Star Studded as well as the UG newspaper San Jose Redeye.

By 1972 or so Richard Kyle began trying to get George's Beyond Time And Again published, trying to accumulate advance orders soas to cut dow his personal out of pocket - it wasn't until 1976 he finally got it into print when Dennis Wheary became his partner in the project.

By this late time George Metzger had moved into the Yukon of Canada, truckin his Ice Age comics down to Print Mint following the first three Moon Dog comic books Print Mint issued, and some time later there was a #4.

I bring up George Metzger because he is "there" with his graphic novel early on the in late 20th Century attempt to bring "respectibility" back to the comics when Richard Kyle first began placing discussion into print regarding the useage of the term "graphic", him coining "grahic story" and it appears maybe Henry Steele coining the term "graphic novel", as least in America.

But definitely not the esteemned Will Eisner.
I agree he definitely popularized the term(s).

I had my first sit down talk one on one with him at Multicon I Oaklahoma City June 1972. (I have encountered this towering living legnd of the comics world at numerous shows all over America ever since, last time on the streets of Paris near the rue Saint Germaine comic book stores thru cosmic energy good fortunes, then again a couple days later down in Angouleme when he was a guest a couple years back.)

By 1972 i had about 50 original Spirit sections and got a few autographed by Will then. I think i have read every Spirit in the original weeklies and the dailies first thru the Ed April series, then the Ken Pierce complete series, both of which i was selling when they were basicly new.

(By the time i hosted Frank Miller's first autograph party ever in a comic book store December 1981 with Death of Elektra in Daredevil 181, i had over 500 of them and was closing in on a complete set. Frank looked thru them all one night after doing an autograph gig for 12 hours because 3000 people showed up on a Saturday) then drew me his version of The Spirit, one of his main inspirations.)

Mr Eisner and I discussed what it would take to re-jumpstart the comics business following the glut collapse following the demise of the batman TV craze, Kirby at DC with his 4th World, Smith on Conan, Wrightson, as well as the new comix emanating from the Bay Area from Crumb, Shelton, Sheridan, Bode, Corben, etc etc etc. Kyle's efforts in Graphic Story Magazine were discussed among other aspects as I also quized him about his self publishing efforts with Baseball and Kewpies comic books in the late 1940s.

This was Eisner's second comic book convention he ever attended at that point in time, following his successful GofH stint at Phil Sueling's July 4th comicon we affectionately called Seulingcons.

Some of us were living and breathing comics back then, absorbing all we could like a sponge. It was an uphill battle bringing semi-respectability back into American that it was socially acceptable

Eisner back then was amazed with our religious-type zeal of making the world safe for comics once again. I am eternally grateful for his spending almost an hour way back then in my youth. Many valuable pointers.

By August 1972 i teamed up with John Barrett and Bud Plant starting up the Comics & Comix chain store operation in the Calif Bay Area. Will Eisner's valuable advice was still fresh in my mind when we started our grand experiment. We strived to stock everything Richard Kyle and Fred Patten wrote about in Graphic Story magazine. Kyle opened a whole new world for many of us back then.

And of course we moved massive quantities of the undergound alternative independent comix - there were many terms back then trying to come to grips on what to call the "new comix" as it was all so fresh and new and so many of us were so young.

By late 1973 we at Comics & Comix began the process of supprting Jack Katz, his wife Carolyn and his The First Kingdom "graphic novel" project - projected to take 12 years then, already mapped out to 24 books, two a year.

I pushed my partners to take on this project, the first time one of the "old timer" comics artists was going to try to make a living doing comix in the new distribution system then under evolving development which we nowadays sometimes used to call "The Direct Sales Market"

And "graphic" was definitely one of the first terms in the 1960s comics consciousness raising some of us emersed ourselves in back then. First came graphic story, then graphic novel. -

robert beerbohm

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posted March 06, 2004 07:42 AM            

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Thanks for that, Robert. Your account gives us a good start on filling in the gap between the first documented appearance of the term graphic novel, in CAPA-Alpha #2, and its "sudden" emergence as a publication category and marketing tool in 1975/76.

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posted March 09, 2004 01:21 PM           

"Pepín" a mexican comics magazine, during the 50's was using the following sub-title: Diario de novelas gráficas. Propio para adultos.

That's something like: "Daily graphic novels. Just for adults."

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posted April 22, 2004 10:06 AM            

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Originally posted by Chanoc:
Don´t know if anyone has brought up this.

"Pepín" a mexican comics magazine, during the 50's was using the following sub-title: Diario de novelas gráficas. Propio para adultos.

That's something like: "Daily graphic novels. Just for adults."

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Maurice Horn's Encyclopedia of Comics (1976) includes the term "graphic novel" applied to the Filipino comics industry in an article by one Orvy Jundis:

"Many of the classics of the Philippine graphic-novel appeared in the pages of the comics that carried the Ace imprint."

I realize that this is well after earlier claims to the term, but it makes me wonder if the term has a history of its own in the "Komiks" tradition.

Perhaps the answers can be found at http://www.komikero.com (the "Komikero Comics Journal" site)

But you'll probably be too distracted by pictures like this one to bother tracking down terminology:
http://www.komikero.com/coch4.jpg

Wow!

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posted July 09, 2004 07:50 PM            

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Originally posted by Robert H Kennedy:
I've seen Jack Katz's [b]The First Kingdom referred to as "the first graphic novel," possibly in the pages of TCJ[/B]

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I don't know about that, but the book itself has a whole "theory" about graphic novels:
"THE FIRST KINGDOM is an epic revolution.
It's a Graphic Novel. It's a novel with plots and sub-plots, protagonists and antagonists, depth and integrity - told as much with pictures as with words. Not only has Jack described his visions, but he's delineated them as well. And he's made the art an integral part of the telling of the story. Concept, words and pictures - all forged from the same mind and unfettered by editors and censors.
There lies the seed of revolution. Jack Katz represents a renaissance. He's freed himself from the restrictions of the commercial comic companies and set off in a totally new direction. He's dedicating the next ten years of his life to this one massive project. That's a revolutionary and daring concept, but one that a man of Jack's talent and determination and integrity can fulfill. There is no precedent, no "safe" path to follow here. Every book marks another trail for others to follow. Jack is proving that it can be done. He's showing the world that comics needn't be as we know them and that putting pictures with the words of a novel needn't detract from their literacy value. You can have both! The legendary Graphic Novel is possible."
Only in the weird comics milieu could this juvenile fantasy be considered good literature (the drawings are... ahem... not very good either), but there are some good points up there.

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posted July 09, 2004 11:54 PM            

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Originally posted by Domingos Isabelinho:
Only in the weird comics milieu could this juvenile fantasy be considered good literature (the drawings are... ahem... not very good either), but there are some good points up there.

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It's interesting to note that he had a 10-year plan well before Dave Sim's famous 300 issue novel. Which is relevant, since Dave at one time justified his 300 issue "novel" on the basis of word count!

I always wanted to like First Kingdom.

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posted July 13, 2004 10:08 AM            

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Originally posted by Dan Parmenter:
Maurice Horn's Encyclopedia of Comics (1976) includes the term "graphic novel" applied to the Filipino comics industry in an article by one Orvy Jundis...

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Like "discovering America," it doesn't seem to be a matter of who may or may not have put out a graphic novel once in 1955 or 1975 (or even called it one at the time), but of who first developed, used and publicized it on a regular basis.

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posted December 10, 2004 01:01 PM            

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ba-bump.

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posted December 10, 2004 01:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Domingos Isabelinho:
I don't know about that, but the book itself has a whole "theory" about graphic novels:
"THE FIRST KINGDOM is an epic revolution.
It's a Graphic Novel. It's a novel with plots and sub-plots, protagonists and antagonists, depth and integrity - told as much with pictures as with words. Not only has Jack described his visions, but he's delineated them as well. And he's made the art an integral part of the telling of the story. Concept, words and pictures - all forged from the same mind and unfettered by editors and censors.
There lies the seed of revolution. Jack Katz represents a renaissance. He's freed himself from the restrictions of the commercial comic companies and set off in a totally new direction. He's dedicating the next ten years of his life to this one massive project. That's a revolutionary and daring concept, but one that a man of Jack's talent and determination and integrity can fulfill. There is no precedent, no "safe" path to follow here. Every book marks another trail for others to follow. Jack is proving that it can be done. He's showing the world that comics needn't be as we know them and that putting pictures with the words of a novel needn't detract from their literacy value. You can have both! The legendary Graphic Novel is possible."

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