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20 BARRY ROUW 21 having been first duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole 22 truth, and nothing but the truth, testifies as follows: 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. CARLSON: 25 Q State your name please. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
95 1 A Barry Rouw. 2 Q Would you spell that last name for us please? 3 A R-O-U-W. 4 Q Mr. Rouw, what is your business, profession or 5 occupation? 6 A I’m a private investigator. 7 Q How long have you been a private investigator? 8 A For -- since 1977. 9 Q Do you hold a license? 10 A Yes, I do, 11 Q And how long have you been a licensed private 12 investigator? 13 A Since 1977. 14 Q Previous to your being a private investigator, what 15 was your business profession or occupation? 16 A I was deputy sheriff in Tulsa County, Oklahoma. 17 Q What were your duties with the sheriff’s office? 18 A I was deputy and investigator for the county assigned 19 to narcotics prior to the time I quit and prior to that 20 time organized crime intelligence. 21 Q Have you been involved in this particular case which 22 is coming on for trial? 23 A Yes, sir, I have. 24 Q In what capacity? 25 A As in investigator for your office. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
97 1 perform some experiments at 1808 Jefferson, the Allen 2 residence? 3 A Yes, sir, we did. 4 Q And during those particular experiments did we also 5 video those particular experiments? 6 A Yes, sir, we did. 7 Q Let me hand you, sir, what’s been marked as 8 Defendant’s Exhibit 19, and I’m going to ask you if you 9 can identify that for us please? 10 A It has a date on it 6-19-91. Your name, Mr. Carlson, 11 and the address at 1808 Jefferson Road. This is one of 12 the video tapes that we recorded that evening. 13 Q Okay. Did we have occasion to perform some glass 14 breaking experiments there? 15 A Yes, sir, we did. 16 Q Can you tell us, the ladies and gentlemen of the 17 jury, what we did so far as sitting up the particular 18 scene there with regard to the carpet? 19 A Well, the -- the original piece of carpet that had 20 previously been in the area of the side door or entry way 21 to the residence there had been removed and we cut another 22 piece of carpet from the west end of the family room and 23 placed it in that area there in front of the door. 24 Q And was it the exact same type of carpet? 25 A It was from the exact same piece of carpet that DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
98 1 carpeted that room. It was the same type manufacture, et 2 cetera. 3 Q What was our reason for attempting these particular 4 experiments? 5 A To determine what would happen when glass was broken 6 out of the door and entry way there and how that glass 7 would disperse throughout the room. 8 Q How did we actually get the glass in the door? 9 A Well, we purchased several panes of glass that would 10 fit the door, placed them back in the door, used some 11 molding to hold them in place. The original molding had 12 been removed by the law enforcement authorities 13 previously, and just set the glass in there and put the 14 molding around it to hold it. 15 Q Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury, 16 before we show the particular video, what the video 17 actually shows? 18 MR. CORGAN: Your Honor, I think the best 19 evidence would be the video. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. You may describe. 21 A The video shows that upon the glass being struck with 22 an instrument that the glass will disperse throughout the 23 den area in an area approximately five feet seven inches 24 from the hearth to the west and from the door south in 25 excess of ten feet. It will also disperse up on the DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
99 1 hearth and on one occasion not only up on the hearth but 2 down the length of the hearth past the fireplace. 3 Q When you say up on the hearth, so that the ladies of 4 the gentlemen of the jury will know what to look for, 5 could I have you step down here and sort of draw the 6 location of the door and what you mean by up on the 7 hearth. 8 THE COURT: Turn to a new sheet. 9 Q (By Mr. Carlson) You might want to pull that round. 10 A This is the doorway here and we would have glass 11 dispersion in an area approximately here across here as 12 far as past the hearth throughout this area from breaking 13 of this pane of glass in this doorway. Also, we found 14 that glass would hit the carpet and bounce and wind up on 15 this hearth through this fireplace out there. Here’s the 16 fireplace, but if this is the hearth area glass would wind 17 up on the hearth in various locations from a point past 18 the fireplace all the way back through here. Now, we 19 would get maybe three or four pieces of glass on the 20 hearth every time we broke it. 21 Q All right. Did we break the glass with the door open 22 or closed? 23 A With the door closed, sir. 24 Q All right. From your experience, how did the glass 25 wind up back there, and I’ll refer to the corner of the DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
100 1 hearth? 2 A Well, from my experience, and in this occasion from 3 what we see in the video tapes, is that the glass would 4 hit the carpet and then rebound. 5 MR. CARLSON: Your Honor, we would ask that 6 the jury be allowed to view Defendant’s Exhibit 19. Well, 7 let me qualify one more thing. 8 Q (By Mr. Carlson) Who did we have breaking the glass 9 in regard to this particular experiment? 10 A Jerry Horton. 11 Q And who is Mr. Horton? 12 A Mr. Horton is the retired chief of the Oklahoma 13 Highway Patrol and does some part-time work with me. 14 MR. CARLSON: Your Honor, we’d ask that the 15 jury be allowed to view Defendant’s Exhibit 19, which has 16 been furnished to the state. 17 THE COURT: Defendant 19 allowed. 18 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD WHILE 19 DEFENDANT’S EXHIBIT NO. 19 WAS PLAYED FOR 20 THE JURY.) 21 Q (By Mr. Carlson) What are we doing at this general 22 point? 23 A It’s just a general photograph of the hearth in front 24 of the fireplace and in front of the east wall of the den 25 area, and then there will also be a shot of the carpet to DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
101 1 show that it was cleaned before we broke the window. 2 Q Okay. And what was that that we just saw? 3 A You saw the glass being broken from the exterior of 4 the residence inwardly, and you saw the glass fragments 5 travel through the carpet area and then there’s also some 6 glass fragments up on the hearth. 7 Q What’s the significance about this piece of glass? 8 A It’s close proximity to the south side of the house 9 or the door. Actually, when you open the door that piece 10 of glass is behind the door. 11 Q Is this tape kept continually running? 12 A Yes, sir, it was. 13 Q Mr. Rouw, at this particular point what are you 14 doing? 15 A Just pointing out a piece of glass that was, I 16 believe, the furthest piece of glass that would have been 17 west of the hearth. What we’re trying to show is the 18 distance west of the hearth that glass would travel and 19 also the distance from the door to the north to show the 20 limits of the pattern of the glass. 21 Q What, if any, significance did our experiment have in 22 light of the investigation in this particular case? 23 MR. CORGAN: Judge, I’m going to object to 24 the form of the question. 25 THE COURT: Rephrase your question. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
102 1 Q (By Mr. Carlson) What, if anything, prompted us to 2 do this? 3 MR. CORGAN: Again, Your Honor, I’m going 4 to object to the form of the question. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 Q (By Mr. Carlson) What are we doing here now? 7 A Well, it was my understanding that it was the theory 8 of some of the law enforcement people that the glass had 9 been broken out of the window after the door had been 10 opened and had feel down on the interior side of the door 11 creating kind of a straight line glass pattern, and what I 12 wanted to show here was that it was possible by just 13 opening the door over the carpet that the door would move 14 glass. Not all of it, but would move some of the glass 15 creating that straight line pattern. 16 Q Did you have reference to the door being opened after 17 the glass was broken? Do you understand my question? 18 A No, sir, I do not. 19 Q I’m sorry. Are you having reference to the fact that 20 the door was opened after the glass was broken in the 21 video? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q What, if anything, was the reason for doing that? 24 A Well, again, it was my understanding that the theory 25 of the -- some of the law enforcement personnel was that DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
103 1 there was no way for -- from the door, from the glass 2 being broken out of the door when it was closed for glass 3 to have gotten up on the hearth. 4 There what we were trying to show is that 5 if a perpetrator was exiting the residence and on his way 6 out grabbed that door and pushed it open and hit that 7 hearth, that additional glass would fall out of that 8 broken window to the hearth and also on to the carpet. 9 Q Did that happen? 10 A Yes, sir, it did. 11 Q What are we attempting to show here? 12 A Here we show that we have glass both inside and 13 outside of the door from the breaking. 14 Q Did we do that a number of times? 15 A Yes, sir, we did. 16 Q And with what results? 17 A We conducted the test five times. Four out of the 18 five times, from the initial breaking of the glass, we got 19 glass dispersed up on the hearth. On one occasion we did 20 not. All five times when we opened the door we developed 21 a line or pattern of glass, straight line pattern, to 22 where the door had opened, and each and every time that we 23 threw the door open to where it hit the hearth of course 24 additional glass come out of the window and landed on the 25 hearth. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
104 1 Q Is there some authority for the fact that glass will 2 do what I’ll refer to as this phenomenon? 3 A Yes, sir, there is. 4 MR. CORGAN: Excuse me,- Your Honor. I 5 don’t think this witness has been qualified as a glass 6 authority. 7 MR. CARLSON: We’re not -- 8 THE COURT: I didn’t hear your question. 9 MR. CARLSON: My question was, I just asked 10 Mr. Rouw if there was any authority that glass would do 11 what this particular phenomenon shows. By that I mean 12 rebound backwards. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 MR. CARLSON: Your Honor, I’m not 15 attempting to qualify him as an authority in glass; I just 16 wondered if, you know, we were going to show that we had 17 done some research in that regard. I’m not going to 18 attempt to qualify him as an expert certainly in glass. 19 Certainly neither -- none of us are. 20 MR. CORGAN: Your Honor, maybe we need to 21 approach the bench if we’re going to argue further. 22 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD AT THE 23 BENCH OUTSIDE THE HEARING OF THE JURY:) 24 MR. CARLSON: This is from the preliminary 25 hearing, and I can ask Mr. Rouw about that if you want me DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
105 1 to. We can pull the line and page and he’s reviewed this. 2 If the state’s witness -- Lynette Lee relies on this 3 particular book which we have as authoritative in the 4 transcript of the preliminary hearing, and what we’ve done 5 is pulled this particular book and within this book it 6 describes this particular phenomenon that glass will 7 perform this rebound effect. Now, Mr. Rouw doesn’t have 8 to be an authority in glass nor does he have to recognize 9 the book as authoritative, although he probably would, but 10 certainly if it -- if the state’s witness recognized that 11 as authoritative throughout these proceedings then we can 12 refer to it. 13 MR. CORGAN: Well, Judge, you need to look 14 at the context. As I recall the context of the 15 preliminary hearing, it was well, Mrs. Lee, as you do your 16 examinations are there any books or authorities you rely 17 upon in general, and apparently she mentions this one. 18 But it’s out of context as far as glass and what it has to 19 do with that. And this may be admissible, but it’s not 20 admissible in this manner. 21 MR. CARLSON: It would be admissible in 22 this manner if she says she relies on it or it’s 23 authoritative. As a matter of fact, now she doesn’t have 24 to say its authoritative but that she refers to it. 25 THE COURT: Let me see it. You need to DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
106 1 call a forensic specialist, I suppose. 2 MR. CARLSON: Well, we could do that, but 3 we have the video here now and it shows that -- all it 4 will show is that this particular book says that will 5 happen. 6 MR. CORGAN: Well, you can’t do that 7 through this witness. 8 MR. CARLSON: Well, your people recognized 9 it. 10 MR. CORGAN: Not in this proceeding. 11 MR. CARLSON: They did in the preliminary 12 hearing. We’re entitled to put it on now. They’ve done it 13 so we can use it now. 14 MR. CORGAN: Well, Judge, you need to look 15 at the preliminary hearing if that’s what we’re relying 16 on. 17 MR. CARLSON: Well, I can pull that. I 18 call pull that. 19 THE COURT: We need to have a proper person 20 sponsor that. 21 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD WITHIN 22 THE HEARING OF THE JURY:) 23 Q (By Mr. Carlson) Mr. Rouw, if we were to show the 24 other particular videos which we have here, would they 25 show and indicate the same thing? DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
107 1 A Yes, sir, they would. 2 Q Did you have occasion to be present at the Allen home 3 at 1808 Jefferson Road with a Mr. Blair Gluba? 4 A Yes, sir, I did. 5 Q And with regard to a particular door, could you tell 6 the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what you observed 7 while Mr. Gluba was there? 8 A Mr. Gluba accompanied myself and -- 9 MR. CORGAN: Your Honor, might we have a 10 date and time on this. 11 Q (By Mr. Carlson) If Mr. Gluba stated that in his 12 testimony that he was there in February, would that be 13 your recollection? 14 A Yes, sir, it would be. 15 Q Was that February of this year? 16 A Yes, sir, it was. 17 Q You may proceed. 18 A Again, myself, Mr. Gluba, yourself, Mr. Buchanan and 19 Ray Jarvis form my office went to the residence in the 20 afternoon hours and reinspected the residence, and while 21 there discussed the need to do this type of video and some 22 other investigations that we wished to conduct. While we 23 were there Mr. Gluba not only attempted but did open the 24 locked screen door to the entrance to the den simply by 25 pulling on the handle. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
108 1 Q Was the door locked at that time? 2 A Yes, sir, it was. 3 Q Now, did you have occasion to be at the Allen 4 residence in the month of June of 1990? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And was anyone with you? 7 A On which occasion, sir? 8 Q Okay. On the first occasion. Good question. 9 A Okay. 10 Q On the first occasion you were there. If you recall. 11 A Are you speaking of June 11th? 12 Q Now, I’m talking about at any point after June 11th 13 were you there with anyone and basically went through the 14 house? 15 A Oh, I see. I was there after June the 11th, I was 16 there again on the 19th. On that occasion I was 17 accompanied by yourself, Mr. Buchanan and Jerry Horton and 18 the videotographer. 19 Q Okay. With regard to the year 1990, last year, were 20 you also at the Jefferson Road residence, the Allen 21 residence in the month of June? 22 A Yes, sir, I was. 23 Q And tell me basically what you did there? 24 A Conducted an inspection of the residence. 25 Q All right. And you tell me what your inspection DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
109 1 consisted of? 2 A Photographing the residence. We were there 3 approximately on the 19th was -- I believe the 19th of 4 June was the first time we entered the house. We 5 photographed the residence on that date, measured -- 6 conducted measurements of the crime scene area, measured 7 the entire house as far as the size of the rooms, 8 hallways, et cetera, in order to prepare drawings of the 9 residence, inspected the outside of the residence, - 10 inspected the fence lines, measured the outside of the 11 residence, the lot and fences, et cetera, photographed 12 everything, recovered from the den area a piece of carpet 13 approximately six feet wide and almost the entire length 14 of the den. I forget the exact measurement. In addition 15 to that, just a good general physical search of the 16 residence. 17 Q Have you transferred any particular items to Mr. 18 Peter Barnett? 19 A Yes, sir, we have. 20 Q Can you tell us which items you transferred to him? 21 A To Mr. Barnett on the first occasion I transferred a 22 tire tool that was recovered from the garage of the 23 residence and a -- the piece of carpet that was recovered 24 from the den of the residence. 25 On the second occasion -- or excuse me. In DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
110 1 addition to that on the first occasion -- no. He 2 collected those himself. On the second occasion -- 3 MR. CORGAN: Excuse me, Judge, I’m confused 4 about occasions. Could we have dates established. 5 A I’m sorry. In May of 1991 I transferred to I believe 6 it was-- 7 MR. CORGAN: Excuse me, Judge. Could we 8 get a little close than just the month? 9 A May the 13th, sir, of 1991, I transferred to Mr. - 10 Peter Barnett the carpet and the tire tool. On July 2nd, 11 1991, I transferred to Mr. Barnett a book that had been 12 recovered at the scene and a piece of -- recovered a piece 13 of cabinet at the scene which was not sent to Mr. Barnett 14 but was sent to the serologist, and a piece of carpet, a 15 rug, from the garage entry way was transferred to Mr. 16 Barnett on that occasion. 17 Q Let me hand you what’s been marked as Defendant’s 18 Exhibit 20, 21 and 22, and ask you if you can tell us what 19 these are, sir. 20 A Well, number 20 is an additional glass breaking at 21 the scene done on the 11th of June. Exhibit, number 21 is 22 additional glass breaking conducted at the scene on the 23 11th of June, and exhibit number 22 is additional glass 24 breaking that was done at the scene on June the 19th. 25 MR. CARLSON: Your Honor, we’d move the DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
111 1 admission of Defendant’s 21, 22 -- I’m sorry. Strike 2 that. Of 20, 21 and 22, which have previously been 3 furnished to the state. 4 THE COURT: 20, 21 and 22 allowed. 5 Q (By Mr. Carlson) When you conducted your inventory 6 of the residence, did you find any glasses? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Did you look for those? 9 MR. CORGAN: Excuse me, Judge. I’m going 10 to object to the leading nature of the questioning and I’m 11 not sure what time we’re talking about. Are we talking 12 about June of ‘90 or May of ‘91 or where are we? 13 MR. CARLSON: I can clear up the dates. 14 Q (By Mr. Carlson) When you conducted your inventory 15 in June of 1990, did you look for glasses? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q With what result? 18 A Did not find any. 19 MR. CARLSON: That’s all we have, Your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: You may inquire. 22 MR. CORGAN: If I could have just a second. 23 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. CORGAN: DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
112 1 Q Mr. Rouw, have you had occasion to prepare a report 2 in this case? 3 A To prepare a report? 4 Q Yes, sir. 5 A I’ve prepared several reports. 6 Q And have you had occasion to review any of those 7 reports prior to your testimony today? 8 A No, sir, I have not. 9 Q You’ve not reviewed those? 10 A No, sir. 11 Q What did you do with those reports after you prepared 12 them? 13 A They were delivered to Mr. Carlson. 14 Q And when was that? 15 A Prior to the preliminary hearing. 16 Q And you’ve not looked at those since then? 17 A No, sir, I haven’t. 18 Q Have you reviewed anything in preparation for your 19 testimony today? 20 A I reviewed three of those tapes yesterday evening. 21 Q That’s the video tapes? 22 A Yes, sir. 23 Q Three of the five that were done? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Now, I say three of the five that were done. We’re DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
113 1 talking about three of the five glass breaking that was 2 done? 3 A Well, I did not -- excuse me. I did not review all 4 the glass breaking tapes. 5 Q Right. I’m confusing you. What I’m trying to say -- 6 you would agree with me that there were five glass 7 breaking tapes done. 8 A No, sir. 9 Q No? There were just four? 10 A No, we did the experiment five times. 11 Q Okay. 12 A And, yes, there were five tapes. 13 Q Okay. Five tapes were done? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q Of the five you reviewed three? 16 A No, sir. I reviewed a total of three tapes last 17 night. Not all of them were of the glass breaking. 18 Q Okay. Now, we have -- you have introduced today four 19 of the five glass breaking tapes? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q The fifth one that we do not have is the tape that 22 shows where glass did not get on the hearth, is that 23 right? 24 A Yes, sir. 25 Q Now, would you agree with me, Mr. Rouw, in looking at DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
114 1 the video it appears to me that the carpet is not tacked 2 down. 3 A It’s not tacked down, correct, sir. 4 Q Its -- and would you agree with me that prior to the 5 experiment and prior to the carpet being cut out of the 6 room, that the carpet was tacked down? 7 A The carpet was tacked down around the edges, yes, 8 sir. 9 Q And in being tacked down around the edges it was 10 underneath what I’ll call the kick board? 11 A Well, when it’s tacked down it’s tacked down next to 12 the kick board, not underneath it. 13 Q Well, it butts up right to it? 14 A Yes, sir. 15 Q And that was not the condition of this particular 16 carpet, was it? 17 A No, sir. 18 Q So as far as the condition of the home on June the 19 11th, 1990, and the condition of the carpet, that is 20 different from your experiment? 21 A It is not exactly the same, no, sir. 22 Q And if it’s not exactly the same it’s different. 23 A It’s not exactly the same, no, sir. 24 Q Okay. Now, you can’t tell us or can you tell us that 25 in your experiments the five times that the same force DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
115 1 used by your experimenter was used by whoever broke out 2 the glass? 3 A No, sir, I can’t. 4 Q You can’t tell us that the same instrument was used 5 by your experimenter that was used to break out the glass, 6 can you? 7 A No, sir. 8 Q Now, Mr. Rouw, let me hand you three photographs that 9 are marked and have been admitted as State’s Exhibits 40, 10 41 and 42. Would you examine those, sir, and tell me what 11 those purport to be and if you recognize those? 12 A I would assume, sir they purport to be photographs of 13 the den entry door into the residence on the south side of 14 the den, two of the photographs, and one photograph of the 15 hearth area that would be -- well, I’m not sure exactly 16 where it’s at. It could be on either the north or south 17 end of the hearth. 18 Q If I were to tell you that those were photographs of 19 the door taken either June 11th or early morning hours of 20 June 12th of 1990, would you necessarily quarrel with me 21 on that? 22 A No, sir, I wouldn’t. 23 Q Okay. Now, in looking at those photographs of the 24 glass that’s left in the panes, would you agree with me 25 that there is significantly more glass left in the pane DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
1 that’s broken than any glass that was left in your pane 2 after it was broken in the experiment? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q You would not agree with that? 5 A Not without having a photograph to compare, no, sir, 6 I wouldn’t. 7 Q Okay. And what photographs are those? 8 A Well, from the video. 9 Q Well, you’ve reviewed the video, haven’t you? - 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q And you can’t tell me? 12 A I don’t believe that in each occasion that there was 13 more glass broken out than was broken out here. No, sir, 14 I don’t. 15 Q Well, what about the one we saw today? What’s your 16 opinion on that? 17 A I don’t have the ability to measure, but looks to me 18 like they’re probably pretty close. 19 Q You think they’re the same? 20 A Not exactly the same, but fairly close, yes, sir. As 21 far as area of glass that was -- that is missing at least 22 from what I can see of this photograph, exhibit number 40. 23 Q Okay. Now, I observed it appeared to be at least in 24 the video today to me that it looked like the upper -- 25 just about all of the upper half of that pane was broken DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
117 1 out. Did you make a different observation? 2 A I’m talking about total area, sir. 3 Q Oh, so you would agree with me in our photographs we 4 have basically a hole in the middle? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q And you’re saying although this may not be the same, 7 amount of glass missing is the same? 8 A Approximately. I would -- I think so. The size of 9 the hole is about the same, and we’re never going to be 10 exact in the exact same location of where the window was 11 struck. It’s impossible. 12 Q And do I understand correctly that there were no 13 experiments done with the door open? 14 A No, sir, there were not. 15 Q Now, I believe you said that on June 19th, 1990, you 16 made your first entrance into the Allen home. 17 A I believe that’s the correct date, sir. 18 Q That would be, what, eight days after this incident? 19 June the 11th to the 19th, eight days? 20 A I -- It’s either seven or eight. Again, I did not 21 review my reports. We got back in there -- we got in 22 there on, I believe, the following Tuesday which would 23 have been, I believe, the 19th. 24 Q Okay. Well, we’re talking 18th through 19th, is that 25 right? DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
118 1 A Yes, sir. 2 Q And what did you do on that date? 3 A Photographed the interior of the residence. 4 Q All right. What else? 5 A Started conducting measurements of the interior of 6 the residence of the crime scene area and the remainder of 7 the residence. 8 Q What else? 9 A I think that’s probably all we got to the first day. 10 Q Well, you said -- 11 A Examined the residence. We were -- probably looked 12 for any other evidence that we might see that might have 13 not been picked up by law enforcement authorities. 14 Q Well, you probably did that? 15 A I don’t know if I did it on the first day or the 16 second day, sir. I was in the house for a total of four 17 days. 18 Q Photographed the interior? 19 A Yes, sir. 20 Q Took measurements? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q Took items of evidence? 23 A No, sir. I didn’t say took I said looked. 24 Q Okay. And when you looked did you find? 25 A I found the carpet in the den and determined that DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
119
1 prior to leaving we would take that. 2 Q What else? 3 A I think that’s all I determined to take at that time. 4 Q Did you take it that day? 5 A No, sir. 6 Q What did you do with it? 7 A I didn’t do anything with it that day. 8 Q You just left it? 9 A Left it. 10 Q When did you take it? 11 A I can’t tell you the date because I haven’t reviewed 12 my report. 13 Q Would that help you? 14 A If I had it, yes, sir, but I don’t have it. 15 MR. CORGAN: Your Honor, we’d ask that Mr. 16 Rouw be allowed to review his report so that we might 17 continue our cross-examination into these areas. 18 THE COURT: Do you have it? Is that here? 19 THE WITNESS: I don’t believe it is. 20 MR. CARLSON: Your Honor, I don’t have it 21 with me, unless it’s in -- I don’t have it indexed and I 22 don’t think I have it. I think it may be at my office. 23 don’t know that I have it. I can look for it. I’ll be 24 happy to look for it if you’d like me to. 25 THE COURT: Go ahead. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
120 1 Q (By Mr. Corgan) Something -- the carpet was taken at 2 some point? 3 A Yes, sir, it was. 4 Q When was that? Can you give me a rough idea? 5 A No, sir, I can’t. I don’t have a date for it. 6 Q And that would be in your report 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Okay. During these four days that you were there, 9 and can I assume that we’re talking somewhere in the 10 neighborhood of June 19, 20, 21 and 22? 11 A Yes, sir. 12 Q Did you take other items of evidence? 13 A We recovered a tire tool from the garage floor. 14 Q When was that? 15 A Same date as the date I took the carpet out. 16 Q But we don’t know when that is. 17 A That’s what I said, sir. 18 Q Okay. Well, would you have taken the carpet out 19 sometime of this four day period? 20 A I believe so, sir. 21 Q You found this tire tool in the garage,, is that 22 right? 23 A Yes, sir. 24 Q And you took the carpet and the tire tool. What 25 else? DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
121 1 A That’s all, sir. 2 Q Those were the only items you took? 3 A At that time, yes, sir. 4 Q Okay. And did I understand you to say that the 5 carpet and tire tool were then delivered to Mr. Barnett 6 May 13th of 1991? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Where were they between June of ‘90 and May of ‘91? 9 A In my office. 10 Q And why were they there? 11 A To be kept in storage until Mr. Carlson directed me 12 to transfer them to the appropriate personnel for 13 inspection and analysis. 14 Q How did you take those items? 15 A How did I take them? 16 Q Yes, sir. Did you wrap up the tire tool in some 17 manner? Did you wrap up the carpet in some manner? 18 A The tire tool was picked up and placed in a brown 19 paper bag. 20 Q Now, when you picked up the tire tool, did you have 21 gloves on? 22 A No, sir. 23 Q What about the carpet? What did you do with that? 24 A Rolled it up and then tied it. 25 Q So were the ends exposed? DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
122 1 A Yes, sir, they were until I got it back to the office 2 and got it boxed. 3 Q And then when you got it to the office it was boxed? 4 A Yes, sir. 5 Q Okay. But from the scene to your office it was 6 simply rolled up and tied? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q Nothing to keep anything from -- 9 A No, sir. I didn’t have anything large enough to hold 10 it. 11 Q Before you took the carpet up did you vacuum it? 12 A No, sir, I did not. 13 Q I believe you said that you took an inventory? 14 A No, sir. 15 Q Oh, you didn’t say that? 16 A No, sir. 17 Q Well, you were just looking for glasses? What was 18 that about an inventory and glasses? 19 A I don’t recall anything about an inventory, sir. 20 Q You don’t? Well, I thought, Mr. Rouw, that Mr. 21 Carlson asked you if during your inventory you were 22 looking for glasses. 23 A I don’t recall the word inventory. He asked me if I 24 was looking for glasses, if I found any glasses, and I 25 responded no. DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
123 1 Q Okay. So as far as inventorying what was there in 2 the home, you didn’t do that? 3 A No, sir, I didn’t. 4 Q Did I understand you to say that you did some 5 investigation outside around the home? 6 A Yes, sir. 7 Q And when did you do that? 8 A After we completed our basic investigation inside the 9 home. 10 Q Now, when you say we, who do you mean? 11 A Myself and David Bray. 12 Q And Mr. Bray is an associate of yours? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And after you completed your -- and this is during 15 the daytime period, right? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Okay. After you completed your inside investigation 18 what did you do outside? 19 A Measured the outside of the house, the lot, the 20 distance from the house to the street on both street 21 sides, the distance from the house to the fence lines. 22 photographed the exterior of the house, photographed the 23 fence lines. Looked at the -- we had already cursory 24 examined the chain link fence, but went back to the chain 25 link fence to determine if we could see any other damage DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
124 1 that had been done to the fence or to the flowers around 2 it. Then we started doing a neighborhood canvass after 3 that. 4 Q Now, when you did your examination of the fence, did 5 you find anything? 6 A Both on the first and second time we looked at the 7 fence -- on the first day we were there Mr. Carlson 8 pointed out the fence to us, and we looked there and we 9 found where the fence had been, from the AlIen side of the 10 fence, had been pushed in. Also we found where there were 11 some Iris leaves broken on both sides of the fence. We 12 were told that law enforcement authorities had discovered 13 that and noted it. We looked at the fence railing in an 14 effort to determine if there might be some blood stains 15 there or anything that might have been left by a 16 perpetrator. 17 Q Did you determine anything in that regard? 18 A We didn’t, no, sir. 19 Q Did you take any photographs of that area? 20 A I believe we did. 21 Q You’re not sure? 22 A I have not reviewed the photographs in some time, 23 sir. I’m -- no, sir, I don’t believe we did because the 24 -- we were told that the law enforcement people had 25 already photographed that and had noted that area. So we DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
1 did not. 2 Q Did you take any photographs of the plant? 3 A No, sir, I didn’t. 4 Q Take any samples of the plant? 5 A No, sir, I didn’t. 6 Q Now, Mr. Rouw, obviously as a private investigator 7 this is your business and certainly you’re entitled to 8 compensation for that. Would you tell us, sir, your rate 9 of compensation for this case? 10 A It’s the same as every other case sir. I work at $55 11 per man hour plus my expenses. 12 Q And what have your hours entailed so far in this 13 case? 14 A I don’t know, sir. Something over 200 man hours 15 total. 16 Q And your expenses? 17 A I have no idea, sir. 18 Q Give me a rough -- 19 A I don’t know, sir. I don’t -- I do daily time sheets 20 and expenses are noted on those time sheets and turned 21 over to a secretary who handles all billings, et cetera. 22 I don’t know how much expenses have been. 23 Q Okay. Now, when -- as an example of the four days 24 that you were at the house in June of ‘90, and you had Mr. 25 Bray assisting you, does that come out of your $55 per man DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
126 1 hour or is there additional compensation for him as well? 2 A We charge $55 per man hour. 3 Q So does that mean it’s $55 for you per hour and $55 4 for Mr. Bray? 5 A Yes, sir. 6 Q So Mr. Bray has assisted you? 7 A Yes, sir. 8 Q How many man hours does he have in this 9 investigation? 10 A As I said, sir, we have probably a total of something 11 in excess of 200 man hours, I believe. 12 Q That’s for the both of you? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q 200 for you and -- 15 A No, no, no. In total. 16 Q Okay. What about Mr. Horton? Would the same 17 principle apply to him? 18 A No, sir. Mr. Horton in this case is -- billed Mr. 19 Carlson direct for his services. 20 Q Okay. So whatever his arrangements are those would 21 be different? 22 A The hourly charge, I believe, is approximately the 23 same, but I have no idea as to how many hours or what have 24 you. 25 Q Okay. And whoever does the video and the time and DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
127 1 expense of all of that, is that billed separately as well? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q That’s something you don’t handle? 4 A No, sir, I don’t. 5 MR. CORGAN: I believe that’s all. Thank 6 you, sir. 7 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 8 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 9 BY MR. CARLSON: 10 Q Mr. Rouw, each time that we broke the glass out of 11 the door, what did we note about the pattern of the 12 breaking? 13 A It was a different pattern each time. 14 Q With regard to the carpet, how did we note the date 15 that we took the particular carpet? 16 A The date. It was written on the carpet in black 17 magic marker and Mr. Bray and myself -- Mr. Bray put his 18 name on one end and my name was on the other end. 19 MR. CARLSON: That’s all we have, Your 20 Honor. 21 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 22 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. CORGAN: 24 Q Mr. Rouw, when you put your name on the carpet, did 25 you put that on what I’m going to call the side opposite DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
128 1 the fiber? 2 A Yes, sir. 3 Q Okay. So as you roll it up -- how did you roll it 4 up? 5 A We rolled it from the east towards the west. 6 Q Okay. But when you rolled it up would you be rolling 7 up-- 8 A Rolled the fiber inside. 9 Q Okay. 10 A So the backing is outside. 11 Q The backing is outside and that’s what you wrote it 12 on? 13 A Yes, sir. 14 Q And so whatever was on this end of the carpet as you 15 rolled up went into a circle and it went over each other, 16 is that correct? 17 A Yes, sir. 18 MR. CORGAN: Okay. That’s all. 19 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 20 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. CARLSON: 22 Q When you took out the carpet the pad was left? 23 A Yes, sir, it was. 24 Q Okay. And the particular carpet that was moved over 25 there by the door was placed right on the pad? DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
129 1 A Yes, sir, it was. 2 Q Okay. Was that like the other carpet that was on the 3 pad? 4 A Yes, sir. The carpet that we moved over there was 5 placed on the same padding as the carpet that we took out. 6 We did not disturb the pad when we removed the original 7 piece of carpet. 8 Q And did we try to get as close as we could -- 9 MR. CORGAN: Judge, it’s beyond the scope 10 of recross and it’s leading. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 MR. CARLSON: That’s all we have, Your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Rouw. Call your 15 next witness.
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OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT
LH
2000