Testimony of J. Douglas Perkins

1				PROCEEDINGS                               
2		(WHEREUPON, PRIOR PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD, NOT HAVING
3		BEEN TRANSCRIBED PER REQUEST OF COUNSEL)
4		(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD IN THE PRESENCE
5		AND HEARING OF THE JURY)
6			THE COURT:	All right. Good morning, ladies
7	and gentlemen. Again, we were taking care of some evidentiary
8	matters in chambers with the lawyers this morning.
9		We think it will expedite the process once we get
10	started. Call your next witness for the State.
11			MR. CORGAN:	Your Honor, the State would call
12	at this time Mr. J. Douglas Perkins.
13	- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
14			J. DOUGLAS PERKINS
15	after having been duly sworn to tell the truth, the whole
16	 truth, and nothing but the truth, testified as follows:
17			DIRECT EXAMINATION
18	BY MR. CORGAN:
19			THE COURT:	Please proceed.
20	Q	State your name, please, sir.
21	A	First initial J. Douglas Perkins.
22	Q	Mr. Perkins, what is your business, profession, or
23	occupation?
24	A	I am a criminalist with the Oklahoma State Bureau of
25	Investigation.

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1	Q	Mr. Perkins, will you tell us how long you’ve been
2	employed in that capacity?
3	A	Over nine years.
4	Q	And, Mr. Perkins, what are your duties and
5	responsibilities as a criminalist?
6	A	In the Bureau, we have specialized fields that we study
7	and work in. Mine is in the fields of the serology/trace
8	division, meaning I do the study of blood, body fluids.
9		In the fields of trace, the collection and
10	preservation of fibers, hairs, soil analysis. Also
11	specialized training in blood spatter analysis; use of luminol
12	at crime scenes.
13		We go to crime scenes, collect the evidence, bring
14	it back to the laboratory and analyze it, or have that evidence
15	brought to us by an outside agency, then present our findings
16	in courts.
17	Q	Mr. Perkins, will you tell us your general educational
18	background?
19	A	I have a bachelor of science degree with a major in
20	biology and a minor in chemistry from Cameron University
21	of Lawton, Oklahoma.
22	Q	What type, if any, specialized law enforcement training
23	do you have pertinent to your field?
24	A	I have received training from the FBI; the Bureau of
25	Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.

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1		And through the State Department in the fields
2	of the forensic serology; hair and fiber school; isoelectric
3	focusing school through Oklahoma City Police Department;
4	the luminol and trace metal detection schools through Oklahoma
5	City; numerous classes on arsons and bombing scenes.
6	Q	Do you have any training in the area of blood spatter
7	interpretation?
8	A	Yes. I have attended one week of school at the Southern
9	Police Institute that was held in Oklahoma City in blood
10	stain interpretation.
11		And I’ve also completed the course through Captain
12	Tom Bevel of the Oklahoma City Police Department on blood
13	stain pattern interpretation.
14	Q	Mr. Perkins, have you written any papers, or do you
15	have any memberships in any professional associations or
16	organizations?
17	A	I am a member of the Southwest Association of Forensic
18	Scientists. I also have an application pending with the
19	International Association of Blood Stain Pattern Analysts.
20	I'm also a member of the International Association
21	of Bomb Technicians and Investigators; InternatiOnal
22	Association of Arson Investigators; the Oklahoma chapter
23	of the same organization.
24	Q	And what, if any, papers have you written?
25	A	I have written two papers concerning use of luminol

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1	in interpreting blood stain patterns at crime scenes. The
2	first one is entitled “Luminol: What’s Glowing On.” The
3	second one is called "Thirteen Luminol Footsteps to Hell.”
4	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, have those particular papers been
5	published?
6	A	They are in the process of being published.
7	Q	What do you mean by that?
8	A	They have been accepted through the Southwest
9	Association of Forensic Scientists, our journal to be
10	published this fall.
11	Q	Mr. Perkins, have you at anytime in the past been
12	recognized by the District Courts of Oklahoma as an expert
13	witness in your areas?
14	A	Yes, I have.
15	Q	And have you been recognized by the District Court of
16	Washington County in that regard?
17	A	Yes, I have.
18			MR. CORGAN:	Your Honor, at this time, we’d
19	ask that Mr. Perkins be recognized as an expert.
20			THE COURT:	So reflect.
21	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	Mr. Perkins, have you had occasion
22	to do any type of analysis in regard to this particular case?
23	A	Yes, sir.
24	Q	Mr. Perkins, I’ve just now handed you what’s been marked
25	as State’s Exhibit Number 62 for identification purposes.

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1	Would you state for the record what that is? --
2	A	State’s Exhibit Number 62 is one brown paper sack that
3	bears the case number from the OSBI 90-5267, item number
4	55.
5		The original date on it is 7-2-90 and also bears
6	my initials, the date of 5-13-91, and contained within, one
7	ball-peen hammer.
8	Q	Would you pull that hammer out, please, sir.
9	A	(The witness complied with the request).
10	Q	Have you seen that hammer before?
11	A	Yes, sir, I have.
12	Q	And how do you know that you have seen that particular
13	hammer?
14	A	This hammer bears the case number 90-5267, number 55,
15	and the initials of 5-13-90 (sic) -- my initials, I should
16	say.
17	Q	Is that when you first saw that hammer on 5-13-90 (sic)?
18	A	Ninety-one.
19	Q	Ninety-one?
20	A	Was the first time I had seen this hammer.
21	Q	And where did you see that?
22	A	It was submitted to our laboratory system; and I
23	transported it after the preliminary hearing to the
24	laboratory -- to my Oklahoma City laboratory.
25	Q	And why did you have that hammer? What was your purpose

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1	in receiving that?
2	A	I was requested to look at the hammer to spray with
3	luminol to see if I could detect trace amounts of possible
4	blood upon this hammer and to do a visual examination of
5	the hammer.
6	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, would you first of all tell us a little
7	bit about luminol and its use in a forensic sense, such as
8	you do it?
9	A	Luminol is a chemical originally extracted from fireflies.
10	It’s what makes them glow.
11		By using the luminol in a liquid form and spraying
12	it around at crime scenes in darkened rooms, blood that has
13	been cleaned up, hidden, is able to be brought and to be
14	seen and sometimes photographed so that I may determine
15	patterns, find amounts of blood that’s too weak or too small
16	to detect by other chemical methods. It’s a very good
17	investigative tool.
18	Q	Now, in regard to luminol testing, can you give us some
19	idea of what size of blood particles or quantities you can
20	detect through the use of luminol?
21	A	Through literature, the results say that you can find
22	a one in a one million dilution of blood.
23		My personal testing in making dilutions of blood
24	and applying it to surfaces, I have seen results as sensitive
25	as one in 80,000.

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1	Q	Mr. Perkins, if you’d like, if you’d be more comfortable,
2	go ahead and put the hammer to the side there on the bench.
3	A	(The witness complied with the request).
4	Q	I believe you did some luminol testing in regard to
5	State’s Exhibit Number 62; is that correct?
6	A	Yes, I did.
7	Q	Now, did you immediately engage in the luminol testing?
8	A	No. I do not do that first off when I receive evidence.
9	Q	What did you do in regard to this particular item when
10	you received it?
11	A	I open it. I look around for any hairs or fibers. I
12	put the unit -- the hammer under a stereomicroscope, which
13	enables me to see under much greater magnification than the
14	naked eye, to look for small trace amounts of particles, -
15	glass, soil, fibers that’s trapped in the wood or up under
16	the crevice where the head meets the handle.
17	Q	And why do you do that?
18	A	So that I don’ t contaminate any evidence that may be
19	crucial to a case before I spray luminol upon it.
20	Q	In regard to your examination in this case with the
21	stereomicroscope, did you determine or find anything prior
22	to your putting luminol on the hammer?
23	A	I observed with the cracks of the handles dark glistening
24	substance that I believe to be blood.
25		And in two of the scratches in the wood near the

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1	head of the handle, I observed some small, embedded glass
2	fragments.
3	Q	Now, how were you able to observe those glass fragments?
4	A	With the use of the stereomicroscope.
5	Q	And could you tell us what power that would have been
6	that you were using?
7	A	I first observed the glass at 6 power, meaning 6 times
8	that of the naked eye.
9		However, at 12 power, I was able to observe the
10	fact that the glass was more readily observable; and I was
11	able to carefully remove it.
12	Q	Now, could you observe the glass with your naked eye?
13	A	I could not see it with the naked eye.
14	Q	Now, after you found these glass particles, what, if
15	anything, did you do with them?
16	A	I removed them and placed them within a container for
17	safe transport.
18	Q	And after they were placed in the container, what, if
19	anything, was done with those items?
20	A	The items were sealed and then submitted to our Talequah
21	laboratory for further analysis to where the known glass..
22	samples are held to be compared to the glass fragments I
23	removed from the hammer handle.
24	Q	Do you know who performed that analysis in Talequah
25	as to those glass fragments?

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1	A	I believe the individual is Dennis Reimer.
2	Q	Mr. Perkins, let me hand you, sir, what’s been marked
3	as State’s Exhibit Number 59 for identification purposes.
4	Would you examine that and state what that is?
5	A	State’s Exhibit Number 59 is a small, brown paper sack
6	which bears the case number 90-5267, item number 55, which
7	coincides with the number off of the hammer.
8		The date of 6-25-91 and the initials I recognize
9	as D.W.R., which is Dennis W. Reimer.
10		Contained within is one plastic petri dish that
11	bears the same case number, the item number, my initials,
12	and the date of 5-13-91, the date I removed these from the
13	hammer handle.
14	Q	Now, would that be the glass fragments that you referred
15	to?
16	A	Yes, it would be the glass fragments.
17	Q	In regard to those fragments, how many did you remove
18	from the hammer?
19	A	I believe there were four small fragments. If I may
20	look at my notes.
21	Q	Would that refresh your memory as to the number?
22	A	Yes.
23	Q	Please do that.
24	A	I just put down that I removed small pieces of glass
25	from in the cuts. I did not label the exact number.

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1	Q	Mr. Perkins, would you again pick up the hammer that’s 
2	been marked as State’s Exhibit Number 62.
3		And would you show to us, please, sir, where it
4	is on the hammer that you retrieved these glass fragments
5	that you’ve told us about?
6	A	The markings on the hammer are what I call the right
7	side, as if you were actually hammering with the hammer.
8	The cuts are upon the opposite side, the side that does not
9	contain many markings.
10		Just below, approximately one-half inch and at
11	about one inch below the metal of the head, there are two
12	incised scratches into the wood. Down inside those scratches
13	are where I removed the glass. 
14	Q	Now, those scratches, would those scratches be in a
15	horizontal or vertical direction to the handle of the hammer?
16	A	They would be perpendicular to the direction of the
17	handle, meaning horizontal -- If you’re holding the hammer
18	in a vertical position, the scratches are horizontal.
19	Q	So they would, I guess to make it easier for me, they’re
20	going the same direction as the head?
21	A	They are going the same direction as the head.
22	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, other than finding these glass
23	fragments in the handle and your observation that you made
24	in regard to blood, did you make any other determinations
25	as a result of your physical examination with the microscope?

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1	A	No, I did not. 
2	Q	And what did you do in regard to the hammer after that?
3	A	I then used the chemical luminol upon the hammer.
4	Q	And what, if any -- Go ahead and put that back, if you’d
5	like.
6	A	(The witness complied with the request).
7	Q	What, if anything, did you determine as a result of
8	your examination with luminol?
9	A	When I sprayed the hammer -- Luminol will react with
10	metal; so the head of the hammer, being metal, of course
11	did glow.
12		The handle, being wood, glowed over its entirety
13	a brighter glow associated with the area where you would
14	hold a hammer.
15		However, this has the appearance as if it had blood
16	either removed from it -- in other words, a cleaning of the
17	hammer or a very fine film over the entirety of the hammer
18	that is not very visible to the human eye.
19	Q	Now, is luminol what we would call a confirmatory test
20	for blood?
21	A	No, it is not a confirmatory test.
22	Q	What type test is it?
23	A	It is a presumptive test. It indicates the possible
24	presence of blood.
25	Q	And are there other things that will indicate -- that

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1	will react to luminol? 
2	A	There are other substances that will react.
3	Q	How then, Mr. Perkins, are you able to differentiate
4	in regards to the reaction as to whether it is presumptively
5	blood or some other item?
6	A	The false positives, as we call them, react differently
7	to luminol than does blood. Through use, experience, and
8	practice with luminol --
9		There are three criteria to be met before I will
10	say something is indicative of blood. That is the intensity
11	of the reaction, how bright does it glow; the color of the
12	glow of the reaction.
13		The false positives generally will give a bright
14	blue color. Luminol reacting with blood will give you a
15	greenish-blue color.
16		And -- let’s see -- intensity, duration, and color
17	of glow. Duration meaning how long it glows. False positives
18	frequently will react very fast, and the glow will be gone
19	just as fast as you spray it.
20		Whereas, with some coppers, we will get a long
21	glow; however, the color is incorrect. So by observing the
22	reaction of luminol upon this hammer, in my opinion, it glows
23	as I expect blood to glow.
24	Q	Did you make any other analysis or determinations as
25	a result of your examination of the hammer?

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1	A	No, I did not.
2	Q	Mr. Perkins, have you had occasion to examine any carpet
3	in this case?
4	A	Yes, sir, I have.
5	Q	Would you tell us the facts and circumstances surrounding
6	that, please?
7	A	On July 10th of 1991, James Otte of the OSBI submitted
8	to the laboratory a box containing a rolled up piece of carpet,
9	which I labeled as item number 103.
10	Q	And did you receive any information as to where that
11	item had come from?
12	A	The information I received was that the item had come
13	from the living room of the house at 1808, I believe, Jefferson
14	Q	And what, if anything, did you do in regard to that
15	particular item, the carpet?
16	A	I unrolled the carpet and did a visual search for any
17	visible blood stains upon the carpeting.
18	Q	And what, if any determinations did you make as a result
19	of that visual search?
20	A	That there was no appreciable amount or none that I
21	saw of any type of visible blood upon the carpeting.
22	Q	What did you do after that, if anything?
23	A	I then sprayed the carpet with luminol to look for trace
24	amounts of blood.
25	Q	And what, if any, determinations did you make in that

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1	regard?
2	A	The carpet stretches along the wall between the kitchen
3	and the living room area.
4		There are two doorways associated with the carpeting,
5	one being the kitchen doorway and then a patio door, a
6	french-type glass door at the far end of the carpeting.
7		Two transfer stains were observed on the carpet
8	near the position of the kitchen/dining room doorway.
9		No determination could be made as what caused these
10	patterns. No hand, foot, nor shoe print patterns were
11	observed -- or were developed.
12	Q	What do you mean by a transfer stain?
13	A	An object that I associate with having a thin film of
14	blood upon it had touched the carpeting right where the
15	carpet originates at the doorway.
16		It made a roughly an “L”-shaped pattern. It could
17	be one object in that shape or one object touching down
18	several times.
19		However, to what originally made that pattern,
20	I cannot determine what object made it.
21	Q	Why not?
22	A	It’s sitting up on top of the nap of the rug of the
23	fibers, and it’s of a shape that I cannot readily identify
24	as to what it is.
25		I just know that the reaction is correct for what

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1	I expect blood to do. However, what caused that pattern,
2	I do not know.
3	Q	Mr. Perkins, let me hand you, sir, what’s been marked
4	as State’s Exhibit Number 54. Do you recognize the area
5	depicted in that particular photograph?
6	A	Yes, I do.
7	Q	And what do you recognize that as being?
8	A	This is the kitchen/dining area of the house where I
9	had luminoled previously the blood on the floor, the dining
10	room table.
11		And in the photograph is depicted the carpet that
12	was not there when I had arrived at an earlier date.
13	Q	And would that be the area that you’re talking about
14	that the carpet came from that you then luminoled?
15	A	Yes. You can see the edge of the carpeting as it enters
16	the bifold doors here between the kitchen to the dining room
17	area.
18		And then the strip of carpet runs in this picture
19	to the right to another doorway.
20	Q	Would you display that to the jury and point out to
21	them the area you’re talking about?
22	A	This picture shows the large bloody area, this part
23	of the carpet here. The blood that you see coming up to
24	the carpet is not actually on it.
25		In this area right here associated with that, there

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1	is an “L”-shaped stain’ that I do not know what caused the
2	stain.
3		However, the glow, intensity, duration, color,
4	et cetera, is correct for what I expect to be blood. However,
5	what caused it, I do not know.
6	Q	Did you do any additional testing on the carpet other
7	than the luminol testing?
8	A	No, I did not.
9	Q	Mr. Perkins, have you had occasion to do any testing
10	in regard to a chair in this case?
11	A	Yes, sir, I have.
12	Q	Let me hold up and I think possibly you can see it.
13	It’s been admitted as State’s Exhibit Number 54.
14	A	Yes, sir.
15	Q	Do you recognize that chair?
16	A	Yes, sir. On the bottom side of the chair should be
17	our case number 90—5267, our item number 73, “L” “L’s”
18	initials for Lynette Lee, and my initials, 5-14-91.
19	Q	And can you tell us, sir, what you did in regard to
20	this particular chair?
21	A	I was asked to do a spatter analysis of the chair to
22	determine what velocities of blood force were present and
23	if I could determine the position of the chair.
24	Q	And how did you do that, sir?
25	A	By examination of the chair using the naked eye and

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1	also a small, hand—held microscope. I was able to look for
2	minute amount of spatter, blood spatter, and to look at the
3	protected areas of the chair that do not have any spatter
4	upon them to see that they would be away from the source
5	of the blood.
6	Q	And what, if any, determination did you make as a result
7	of your examination of the chair?
8	A	That the chair exhibits low and medium velocity spatters.
9	These spatters are consistent with the chair laying on its
10	left side.
11	Q	Now, would you show us —— Well, let me ask you. Are
12	there any examples of spatter shown on this chair?
13	A	Yes, there is.
14	Q	I’ll try to assist you in holding it. Could you show
15	us the areas that you’re talking about showing the spatter?
16	A	The chair, if you’ll notice the underside, contains
17	blood going in this direction.
18		The long ends of the blood are pointing into the
19	direction that the blood is going.
20		Due to the fact that it’s eliptical when it strikes
21	a surface tells me it’s not coming from straight in this
22	way but from back this direction and along this axis here.
23		There is numerous blood stains upon the back of
24	the chair which show directionality. This right here is
25	pretty much coming from straight on. A lot of the spatter

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1	of circular in nature.
2		Spatter like in this position here shows that it
3	hit from an angle here and then had a small satellite cast-off
4	but showing force going in this direction.
5		I have spatters coming in this direction going
6	to the left side of the chair; spatters along the backside
7	of the chair; some from staight on; and some also showing
8	directionality.
9		And then also these low velocity spatters, meaning
10	that is probably dripped blood, not blood -- blood acted
11	upon by gravity, not by a force of any greater velocity.
12		And also have some drips and runs on the chairs
13	which shows that while the blood was still wet, the chair
14	had been moved from its original position when the spatters
15	were being deposited.
16	Q	I believe you said you made a determination as to the
17	position of the chair?
18	A	The most likely position, yes.
19	Q	And what observation did you make as a result of that?
20	A	To get the direction straight, pretend like you are
21	sitting in the chair; and then have the chair fall over onto
22	its left side.
23	Q	Am I doing it right?
24	A	Yes, you are doing it correctly.
25	Q	And that would demonstrate your observation as to the

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1	position of the chair at what time?
2	A	When most of the spatter is being deposited.
3	Q	Did you do anything else in regard to the chair, Mr.
4	Perkins?
5	A	No, I did not.
6	Q	Have you had occasion to perform any examination at 
7	the house located at 1808 Jefferson Road?
8	A	Yes. I was requested to be there.
9	Q	And when did you perform any type of examination?
10	A	The date that I arrived at the house was July the 1st,
11	1991.
12	Q	And could you tell us who was present at that time?
13	A	Present at the residence was Agent Otte; Agent Franchini;
14	the defense counsel, Mr. Carlson, and his associates.
15		I believe a Mr. Bennett (sic) from California
16	or Barnett, excuse me -- Mr. Barnett from California. You
17	were present, sir, Mr. Corgan. I don’t know who all I’ve
18	covered at this time.
19	Q	Is that generally the group of people that were there?
20	A	Yes.
21	Q	What did you do in regard to the home on July 1st of
22	1991?
23	A	I made a visual examination around the area of the
24	greatest amount of spatter, but I also luminoled the
25	residence.

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1	Q	And what did you determine in regard to your luminol 
2	examination of the home?
3	A	In using luminol, in the garage area, I sprayed the
4	garage doors, the floors, the doorways, and the ladder to
5	the attic area.
6		The area that only had the correct intensity,
7	duration, and color of glow associated with dilute blood
8	stains were upon two throw rugs near the door leading to
9	the utility room.
10		In my opinion, those rugs were originally not in
11	that area. They --
12	Q	Why do you say that?
13	A	The glow was too bright. The footprint patterns
14	associated with those two rugs -- There were no footprints
15	leading up to the rugs; therefore, these rugs are from a
16	different area -- were placed there at a later date.
17	Q	What else did you determine?
18	A	That one partial shoe print in particular exhibited
19	a herringbone tread pattern with an oval pattern in the
20	instep region. Those are the class characteristics of the
21	shoes.
22		This left shoe print is consistent with a type
23	of court or deck shoe. The size of the shoe cannot be
24	determined since it was not a full shoe print.
25	Q	Please continue.

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1	A	In the utility room, I observed shoe print patterns 
2	of decreasing intensity leading from the kitchen area past
3	the washer and dryer.
4		In other words, the source of the blood being in
5	the dining area, the kitchen/dining, there are shoe prints
6	coming outwards towards the rear —— or towards the garage
7	side of the house; and you can see them decreasing in
8	intensity.
9		As the blood is being transferred from the soles
10	of the feet of the shoes to the floor, more and more is
11	transferred until finally you don’t see anymore footprints.
12		It depends on the quantity of blood that is --
13	that the shoe receives as to how far the distance it will
14	travel and leave identifying shoe prints. The class characteristics
15	of these shoe prints cannot be identified.
16		The light switch and wall plate leading to the
17	garage did exhibit a partial swipe upon its surface as if
18	someone had activated the switch. No transfers or smears
19	were observed on the doorways or walls.
20	Q	What else did you determine?
21	A	In the kitchen/dining area, blood stains and spatters
22	were visually observed upon the floor, ceiling, walls,
23	doorjambs, and related furniture.
24		No obvious handprints were detected while using
25	luminol in this area. Visually, and while using luminol,

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1	at least two different shoe print patterns were observable. 
2		The breakfast bar was sprayed, and two ambiguous
3	semicircular glowing stains were developed. The size of
4	each was approximately three to four inches in diameter.
5	No patterns associated with attempted cleaning were noted
6	in this area.
7		The right basin of the double sink in the kitchen
8	contained the characteristic pattern associated with a person
9	cleaning one’s hands.
10		The wall-mounted telephone exhibited obvious blood
11	stains, and the characteristic luminol pattern associated
12	with someone using this device while having blood on one’s
13	hands.
14	Q	Well, tell me what that means to you, Mr. Perkins.
15	A	Somebody picked up the phone while their hands had a
16	little bit of blood on it, and they used the phone.
17	Q	Please continue.
18	A	In the living room, I did not observe the presence of
19	trace amounts of blood while using luminol.
20		However, it should be noted that the carpet leading
21	from the kitchen doorway to the exterior door leading to
22	the patio had been removed.
23	Q	Is that the carpet you’ve previously told us about?
24	A	Yes, it is that piece of carpeting. At this time --
25	when I -was doing the report -- this item, therefore, cannot

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1	be analyzed at that time.  
2		No blood was detected in the following list of
3	rooms: the master bedroom and bathroom, the children’s
4	bedroom, the main bathroom, the entrance hallway, the main
5	hallway, the playroom, and the sewing room.
6	Q	Would that then complete your analysis as far as luminol
7	of the home?
8	A	Yes, sir.
9	Q	As a result of that, did you come to any observations
10	or conclusions?
11	A	That the areas of concern of interest in the case, the
12	obvious blood spattering in the kitchen/dining area, pathways
13	of shoe prints leading towards utility room, possibility
14	of somebody activating the light switch to the garage.
15	But as the shoe prints went past the washer and
16	dryer, I could not tell if they went left or right.
17		In relationship to the shoe prints, they all pointed
18	in the direction of going back towards the garage/utility
19	area, not going in any other pathway.
20	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, have you had occasion to make any
21	examination of personal items or items purported to you to
22	be personal items of the defendant in this case,- Stephen
23	Allen?
24	A	Yes, sir.
25	Q	And what have you looked at in that regard?

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1	A	I have received one blue T-shirt, one pair of shorts, 
2	one pair of sports shoes, I believe it’s a Seiko quartz watch.
3	Those would be the personal items.
4	Q	It would be those four items; is that correct?
5	A	Yes, sir.
6	Q	Now, what did you do in regard to those four items?
7	A	The clothing was looked at for the presence of blood
8	and if there was enough volume there to determine a blood
9	type, if possible.
10	Q	And what did you determine in that regard concerning
11	blood?
12	A	Upon the blue T-shirt, which is my item number 100,
13	and upon the pair of sports shoes, my item number 102, that
14	I did in fact detect human blood. However, I was unable
15	to determine the group.
16	Q	Why could you not determine the type and the group?
17	A	In the testing procedures, controls and blanks must
18	be used at all times to ensure that no false positives are
19	reported.
20		In this instance, control samples from the shoes
21	and from the shirt gave me some conflicting results.
22	Therefore, I cannot call a blood type.
23		In this instance, I do know it’s human blood; but
24	as to in the “ABO” grouping system which blood type it is,
25	I do not know.

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1	Q	And that would be as to what items?
2	A	The blue T-shirt and the pair of sports shoes.
3	Q	What about the pants?
4	A	The pair of shorts, the first time that I had them,
5	I checked them over, took a small bit of fabric.
6		I did detect the presence of blood, and then I
7	sealed the shorts back up and put them away.
8	Q	Why did you do that?
9	A	There was contamination of the shorts.
10	Q	What do you mean?
11	A	While using the stereomicroscope, I observed lice upon
12	the shorts.
13	Q	So why did you not continue your examination?
14	A	One, I do not know what lice do to blood stains. They
15	do live off detritus and consume those substances.
16			MR. CARLSON:	Your Honor, we would object.
17	He doesn’t know what lice does to blood stains.
18		He said he didn’t know what lice did to blood stains.
19	He’s going on now and is purporting to tell us.
20			THE COURT:	Overruled. Go ahead.
21	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	You may continue.
22	A	And also my own personal hygiene, I do not wish to
23	contract lice.
24	Q	Now, after you did your testing in regard to blood on
25	these items, what, if anything, did you do next?

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1	A	I then looked at the items, the shirt and the shoes,
2	and did some spatter analysis of those also.
3	Q	Mr. Perkins, what do you mean when you say “spatter
4	analysis”?
5	A	Looking at the blood stains upon the clothing to see
6	if I could determine the range of the force involved; any
7	directionality of those stains; whether the stains were
8	deposited they were aerial in nature, meaning the blood was
9	in flight before it struck that surface; whether or not there
10	are transfer type stains, meaning a bloody object had come
11	in contact with the clothing and left blood behind leaving
12	a direct transfer, such as a swipe.
13		And then there,s also another type of transfer
14	called a smear, meaning blood’s already on the object; and
15	a nonbloody object comes in contact with it. And it’s called
16	a wipe. And those are the things that I did with this
17	clothing.
18	Q	How do you do that? I.mean, what is there about blood
19	that allows you to make those type determinations?
20	A	In dealing with blood, blood as it leaves an object
21	and flies through the air assumes a shape of a perfect sphere
22	every time.
23		As it is in the air and then strikes upon an object,
24	it will leave behind an angle as it strikes the surface.
25		If, for example, blood is dripped from straight

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1	above and hits onto the floor, when it strikes the floor
2	from straight above, it will make a 90-degree droplet, in
3	other words, a perfect circle.
4		The more oblique the angle is from the target --
5	from where the blood originates to the target, the more the
6	angle is towards the vertical, the longer the eliptical the
7	blood pattern will be left behind.
8		In other words, a 10-degree stain -- Say for
9	example the surface is 10 degrees to the direction the blood
10	is falling, it will be a long streak.
11		If the object is perfectly vertical to the blood
12	as it’s dropping, it won’t touch it. You won’t have anything
13	left behind.
14		If it’s 90 degrees to the direction the blood is
15	falling, it’ll make a perfect circle.
16		So by measuring the length of the ratio of the
17	height to width, you can determine on a hard, nonporous
18	surface the direction back from which the blood came and
19	also the height from the floor at which it originated.
20	Q	How do you do that?
21	A	Using measurements and also a small, hand—held microscope
22	that has a built-in measurement scale within the eyepiece.
23	Q	Why are you concerned about size and measurements?
24	A	The characteristic determination of velocities of force
25	imparted to make blood deposit itself in those patterns,

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1	it falls within three ranges of aerial blood. You’ve got
2	low, medium, and high velocity.
3	Q	Well, now you say -- What did you say? Characteristic
4	determination? Is that --
5	A	Yes. The classical characteristics of the blood by
6	its size in relationship to the force imparted upon that
7	blood through experimentation and through observations.
8	Q	And you say that those are low, medium, and high.
9	A	The three ranges, yes.
10	Q	Now, is this the Perkins’ theory of characteristics
11	of blood size?
12	A	No, sir.
13	Q	I mean, how do you get that -- I mean, low, medium,
14	and high?
15	A	This is taught through recognized schools and also is
16	part of the curriculum through the International Association
17	of Blood Stain Pattern Analysts.
18	Q	Well, how do you make a differentiation between a low
19	velocity blood -- What do you call it?
20	A	Low velocity spatter.
21	Q	Spatter? -- and a medium and a high?
22	A	Through its size as it has dried upon the surface.
23	Q	Can you give us what the size range is for these various
24	types?
25	A	In the low velocity range, the spatter will be very,

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1	very large. They will be -- It depends upon the height at 
2	which they fall as to the diameter left behind.
3		But those type of spatters will normally be a very
4	large volume1 more than 50 microliters in volume.
5		And by experimentation and observation, you are
6	able to determine that the force imparted was that of gravity -
7	less than five feet per second.
8	Q	What about medium?
9	A	Medium velocity, the spatters are normally in the range
10	of 1 to 4 millimeters in size, quite often eliptical in shape
11	because the object is at an angle to which the direction
12	the blood is coming from. But the majority will be within
13	the 1 to 4 millimeter in size. 
14	Q	And is there any sort of speed associated with that?
15	A	The force involved is usually within, the range of 5
16	feet per second up to 25 feet per second.
17	Q	What about the high?
18	A	High velocity is any force greater than 100 feet
19	per second or greater, which can be caused by rapidly moving
20	machinery or normally associated with gunshots.
21	Q	Mr. Perkins, my grasp of -- I guess you’re talking about
22	metrics -- is not real good.
23		Tell me -- Give me some idea of the size of objects
24	we ‘re talking about in just, you know, terms that I can
25	understand as far as this low, medium, and high.

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1	A	Well, on the basis of an inch, there is 2.54 centimeters
2	in an inch. Break that down to millimeters, there’s 25.4
3	millimeters in an inch.
4		Therefore, a millimeter is smaller than a sixteenth
5	of an inch since there is more of them per inch.
6	Q	So in regard to these low velocity blood spatters, what --
7	When you say large, what’s your large that you’re talking
8	about?
9	A	Normally associated with dripping blood. You will see
10	them approximately a half-inch in diameter.
11	Q	So that’s large to you in that context.
12	A	That’s very large to me.
13	Q	Give us an idea of what you're talking about when you
14	get into that medium range, the 1 to 4 -- millimeters?
15	A	Correct, millimeters. We’re talking pencil point size
16	up to probably half the diameter of a pencil eraser.
17	Q	And then what about the high?
18	A	The high velocity? Eighty percent of the spatters
19	present in high velocity, which is called misting, are half
20	a millimeter in size, meaning extremely small.
21		The naked eye will pick up the pattern. However,
22	you need good magnification to determine the size.
23		You cannot just hold a ruler up to these small
24	specks and determine the fact that they are high velocity.
25		You will have to use a hand-held microscope with

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1	a scale superimposed within the eyepiece to do the accurate
2	measuring
3	Q	Now, I think I understand the size; but I need you to
4	explain what you talk about how the speed that you’re telling
5	about as relates to the size. How does that all fit in?
6	A	The faster the force involved when it strikes a bloodied
7	object, as the blood is removed from that object as it flies
8	off of it or is pushed off, the more force, the smaller the
9	size.
10		The less force, of course, the larger the size
11	of the blood droplets.
12	Q	Give me some examples of the type force you see
13	associated with low velocity blood spatters.
14	A	Normally thats associated -- Low velocity being, for
15	example, a cut finger and a person is dripping.
16		By looking at the low velocity spatters, you can
17	determine if they were standing in one spot, moving, or
18	running by the distance when the blood is deposited on the
19	surface it strikes.
20	Q	So what is the -- If my finger’s cut and the blood is
21	dripping off, you know, what is the force involved in that?
22	A	Gravity. If your finger’s cut and you just hold it
23	out and don’t move it, when a blood droplet forms at the
24	end of the finger, upon gravity, it will force it to release
25	And that will be the same volume each time, as long as the

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1	surface isn't changing. 
2	Q	Give me some examples of this medium velocity blood
3	spatter.
4	A	Medium velocity is a force greater than gravity, such
5	as if I had blood in my mouth and I sneezed on somebody,
6	I will force the blood to become smaller droplets.
7		If I take a sponge, for example, and I soak it
8	with blood and I hit it with a baseball bat or with a board
9	or with an object, I will cause the blood droplets to be
10	smaller than that of low velocity. And those within that
11	range are normally within the 1 to 4 millimeter in size.
12 Q	Any other type things you see associated with this
13	medium velocity?
14	A	Some instances, they’re called. -stomps. For example,
15	if I have a puddle of blood on the floor and I stomp my foot
16	into it, the blood will be projected blood, meaning it’s
17	squirted out. In that instance, it will also be in the
18	medium velocity range.
19	Q	In regard to crime scene investigations and forensic
20	analysis, are there types of force you see associated with
21	the medium velocity blood spatter?
22	A	Commonly, the force associated with medium velocity
23	is either expectorate blood, meaning from the oral cavities,
24	or through blunt trauma.
25	Q	What do you mean by “expectorate blood”?

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1	A	A person who has damage to the mouth, the buccal cavity, 
2	to the throat, to the lungs will cough of volumes of blood.
3		And in an attempt to establish an airway, the body’s
4	response is to forcefully eject the blood from their mouth.
5	Q	What do you mean by blunt trauma?
6	A	Blunt trauma is a force where an object strikes another
7	object -- for example, a person being hit with an object.
8		It is enough to rupture vessels, to cause abrasions
9	and damage to the flesh.
10	Q	Now, tell us about high velocity and some examples of
11	how you can see that?
12	A	High velocity can be -- through experimentation can
13	be shown. For example, we will take bloodied sponges and
14	shoot, say, a .22 through them; and you will get the
15	characteristic misting associated with it.
16		These patterns have been determined through
17	military testing of shooting animals. They know what the
18	patterns should be like and through going to the scenes where
19	you observe a person who has been shot and the high velocity
20	misting upon the associated surfaces around the victim.
21		The high velocity misting does not travel very
22	far. The target usually has to be around 42 inches. Further
23	than that, not much misting is deposited upon it.
24		Another example of high velocity misting is people
25	associated with injuries in industrial accidents, a person

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1	being caught on a fastly moving conveyer belt, a blood droplet 
2	striking a rapidly moving object.
3		Such as in one instance in literature, I read where
4	a person was looking at a scene; and they thought there might
5	have been high velocity misting.
6		They realized that blood was dripping by gravity
7	into a rapidly moving fan blade, and then that was throwing
8	the blood off at an angle and causing these very small
9	droplets. And the fan blades, of course, being a force
10	greater than 100 feet per second.
11	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, you say that you make these
12	determinations as far as what can cause low, medium, and
13	high based on some reading; is that correct?
14	A	Yes, sir.
15	Q	Do you do any other things to make those determinations?
16	A	Yes, sir. In the classes and also in the laboratory,
17	I will also experiment with human blood to determine what
18	it does as different forces are imparted upon it.
19	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, did you have occasion to make any
20	type of blood spatter analysis in regard to the shirt that
21	was submitted to you?
22	A	Yes, sir.
23	Q	And do you know where that shirt is today?
24	A	It’s within that Federal Express box.
25	Q	And this would be the box here on the counsel table?

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1	A	Yes, sir. 
2	Q	And would you tell us, sir, what, if any, determinations
3	you made in regard to your blood spatter analysis as to the
4	shirt?
5	A	The shirt, which is my item number 100, did exhibit
6	human blood spatters of medium velocity.
7	Q	Now, in this box, are there other items as well?
8	A	The shorts and the sports shoes are within that box.
9	Q	Mr. Perkins, I show you now what’s been marked as State’s
10	Exhibit Number 63 for identification purposes. For the record,
11	would you state what that is?
12	A	State's Exhibit Number 63 is a Federal Express box that
13	on the side bears my case number 90-5267, items number 100
14	through 102, my initials, the date6f 7-25-9l, the fact that
15	the evidence originated from Washington county, and it is
16	an OSBI case.
17	Q	You say the shirt is in here?
18	A	Correct.
19	Q	Now, Mr. Perkins, if we were to take the shirt out,
20	would that assist you in explaining to the jury the results
21	of your examination and determinations you made in that
22	regard?
23	A	It would help visualize what the size pattern
24	relationship to medium velocity would be.
25	Q	Now, I attempted to acquire a mannequin. Would that

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1	be helpful to you in visually showing to the jury what it
2	is you’re talking about?
3	A	It will give a three-dimensional representation of the
4	shirt as it’s being worn.
5			MR. CORGAN:	Your Honor, I ask that we might
6	be able to produce the shirt at this time and allow Mr. Perkins
7	to put that on the mannequin and explain to the jury his
8	observations.
9			THE COURT:	Go ahead.
10	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	Mr. Perkins, I notice you’re putting
11	on gloves. Why are you doing that?
12	A	Anytime you’re dealing with human blood, there’s also
13	a possibility of disease. So, therefore, the gloves protect
14	me from any possibility. Blood is considered a biohazardous
15	substance.
16		(THE WITNESS LEFT THE STAND AND STOOD BY THE
17		MANNEQUIN)
18	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	Will you be able to deal with that
19	there?
20	A	That would be fine.
21	Q	Would you explain to us your observations and
22	determinations in regard to the shirt?
23	A	The shirt, when I first removed it, had a perspiration
24	smell about it; and it was -- has an appearance of being
25	moist.

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1		You can see in this area here at the front of the
2	shirt, you can see large diffuse areas of blood staining.
3		That is in relationship to the extra moisture
4	associated with blood, and the blood is diffused into the
5	fabric.
6	Q	Now, wait a second. What do you mean by "diffused”?
7	A	Wicking in to be absorbed.
8	Q	Well, okay. I don’t -- What’s wick?
9	A	Wicking is an action where a fiber will pull moisture
10	into it.
11		The common definition of a wick is like within
12	a candle. The wick is slowly burning; but the fuel, the
13	wax is being pulled up into the wick as the candle burns.
14		In this instance, we have blood being deposited
15	in this area; and because of excessive moisture, the blood
16	has diffused itself, spread through the fabtic through the
17	front here.
18		And a few spots through this in the back of the
19	shirt; and in these areas, you can see where it has run down
20	in a very diffuse pattern.
21	Q	What other observations did you make?
22	A	On the front of the shirt, these are typical of swipe
23	patterns, meaning a bloodied object coming in contact with
24	a nonbloody surface.
25		There’s also some spatter present in the front,

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1	and these large streaking areas are where the swipes are 
2	present.
3	Q	You say a bloody object coming in contact with the shirt.
4	Give me an example of what would make a swipe mark like that.
5	A	Normally associated with clothing, most of the swipe
6	marks formed are from hands. People with blood on their
7	hands wipe it on their clothing.
8	Q	Okay. Please continue.
9	A	In this area of the shirt up here, if the arm was up
10	as such away from the body, you see numerous small spatters
11	in this area.
12		That’s characteristic in the 1 to 4 millimeter
13	range of medium velocity blood; likewise, on the left arm,
14	coming into the shirt from this direction here.
15		However, this is absorbent material. You cannot
16	determine absolute directionality. And small spattering
17	on the back side of the arm on this side.
18	Q	Now, you said you noticed some spattering on the front?
19	A	Yes, sir. There are small spatters coming towards the
20	front of the shirt.
21	Q	Well, Mr. Perkins, how do you distinguish between, you
22	know, areas such as the swipe marks and spatters? How can
23	you make that?
24	A	When looking at blood stains under magnification, we
25	will look at the top of the surface of the fabric to look

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1	for the glistening, the actual deposition of the blood. 
2	A	lot of times, the spatter, being of small size,
3	it will not fully soak through the blood stain.
4		However, this shirt had been wet. Some of the
5	stains -- The preponderance of stains on this side do show
6	some soaking through.
7		But due to the fact that they exhibit some
8	directionality through here and the ones on the back of the
9	arm here show directionality this way, the blood was in
10	flight at the time it struck the shirt.
11	Q	What do you mean “in flight”?
12	A	It was aerial in nature. It was not a direct transfer
13	of one object to another; but the blood had left an object,
14	flown through the air, and then landed upon the shirt.
15	Q	Now, you may have said it and I missed it. But in what
16	I’m going to call the upper right-hand, if I were to have
17	the shirt on, area kind of in the right-hand side, there’s
18	a big darker spot. Do you see what I’m talking about?
19	A	In the upper-right breast?
20	Q	Yes.
21	A	Yes. That’s a large area of diffuse pattern through
22	here.
23	Q	What do you mean by that?
24	A	The blood has soaked into the fabric due to probably
25	its wetness, the excess of moisture within.

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1		And there is some pattern of spatter present below 
2	the area where it has wicked out.
3	Q	Now, do you have any type of term that you call
4	transfer?
5	A	Yes, sir. Transfer stains are stains directly
6	transferred from one object to another.
7	Q	And can you give me some examples of that?
8	A	The transfers would be in this area here where these
9	swipes are, a bloodied object coming in contact with an
10	unbloody item.
11		And from the shirt, you can tell through the
12	transfers, it being very light in nature, these swipe motions
13	here are just on top of the fibers of fabric.
14		And there s very little actual blood being
15	deposited. It‘s not soaking through anything.
16		And you can see the spatters in this area have
17	soaked through; but the swipes have not soaked through,
18	meaning there’s not much blood there.
19	Q	Now, I notice, Mr. Perkins, that there are pieces cut
20	out through the shirt; and there are circles and letters
21	and that type thing. Do you know what that is? 
22	A	In several areas of the shirt, I cut samples out to
23	do some testing, to do the "ABO" blood grouping, and also
24	to do some analysis testing.
25	Q	Okay. Mr. Perkins, based on your -- I think that’s

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1	all I have at this time. If you want togo ahead and take 
2	your seat.
3		(THE WITNESS RETURNED TO THE WITNESS STAND)
4	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	You might leave those gloves on. I’m
5	not going to promise I won’t have you back up there touching
6	the shirt.
7		Based on your analysis and observations of this
8	shirt, do you have an opinion as to how the medium velocity
9	blood spatter was deposited on the shirt?
10	A	In the testing that I’ve done upon this shirt, the
11	spatters, in my opinion, are consistent with that of blunt
12	trauma force.
13	Q	What do you mean by that?
14	A	An object striking another object. Characteristically,
15	when we in classes perform these experiments, and also some
16	of the experiments in the laboratory and at the crime scenes
17	I’ve gone to, this is characteristic of the patterns left
18	behind in blunt trauma force.
19	Q	I mean, I hear what you’re saying; but tell me what
20	you mean by that.
21	A	In crime scenes where one person beats another person,
22	these type of patterns are left behind.
23	Q	Can you show or demonstrate on the shirt what you’re
24	talking about in that regard that helps lead you to that
25	conclusion?

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1		(THE WITNESS LEFT THE STAND AND STOOD BY THE 
2		MANNEQUIN)
3	A	Upon this shirt are numerous spatters on the right
4	sleeve and upon the back side.
5		One of the common ways of getting the back side
6	of the shirt is either having a person close to the shirt
7	that’s being bloodied or beaten and also from cast-off from
8	a weapon.
9	Q	(By Mr. Corgan) What do you mean by “cast-off”?
10	A	The first time an object strikes a person, it does not
11	pick up any blood. There’s no blood there to be had. The
12	second and consecutive blows, then the item gets bloody.
13		Through experimentation and through the crime scenes
14	that I’ve been through, you can tell-when an object has picked
15	up blood. 
16		As it moves through an arc, such as one person
17	striking another, blood will come off perpendicular to the
18	arc and deposit itself upon the ceilings as cast-off, meaning
19	it was cast from the weapon.
20		When a person is in a striking motion, the speed
21	at which they go forward is equal to speed at which they
22	retract the weapon to strike again.
23		In doing so, the blood will fly upwards; and when
24	they come to the end of the arc, it will fly forwards
25		When they come back to bring their arm back, again,

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA-OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	blood will be cast off, which could be an explanation for 
2	the spatters on the back side of the shirt.
3 	Q	And what is your opinion as to how those spatters got
4	on the backside of the shirt?
5	A	Typically, on smaller items, you will see cast-off in
6	the medium velocity range of about this size -- and the fact
7	that it is behind the shirt.
8	Q	So what’s that mean?
9	A	That this shirt is consistent with that of blunt trauma
10	injury.
11	Q	Go ahead and take your seat.
12		(THE WITNESS RETURNED TO THE WITNESS STAND)
13	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	Did you have occasion to make any
14	examinations as to the shoes and the watch?
15	A	Yes, I have. 
16	Q	Do you need a second there? What, if any,
17	determinations did you make as to the shoes?
18	A	My item number 102, which the pair of sports shoes,
19	did exhibit human blood spatters of medium velocity also.
20	Q	And do you have an opinion as to how those spatters
21	were deposited on the shoes?
22	A	Those spatters deposited on the shoes show different
23	means. One is blood being aerial, probably caused of
24	stomping, meaning stepping into blood, the spatters coming
25	at the angles into the sides of the shoes and to the heels.

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1	And other spatters being from above showing long 
2	eliptical streaks on the sides of the shoes and small
3	90-degree droplets at the toes of the shoes, meaning the
4	blood came from above.
5	Q	What would that be indicative of?
6	A	Aerial blood, meaning blood through the air and then
7	landing upon the shoes. But the force involved was that
8	of the medium velocity range.
9	Q	What, if any, relationship would that have to the issue
10	of blunt trauma?
11	A	That is also indicative of blunt trauma force.
12	Q	What, if any, determinations did you make as to the
13	watch?
14	A	The Seiko quartz watch, which my item number 17, the
15	watch exhibits smears and medium velocity spatters upon its
16	watchband and crystal face.
17	Q	What do you mean?
18	A	Upon the band were large areas where there are smears,
19	an object -- The blood in contact has been smeared with the
20	watchband.
21		But upon its face, there are -- through the use
22	of the stereomicroscope, I’m able to see the small spatter
23	pattern associated with the medium velocity. These were
24	small spatters.
25			MR. CORGAN:	I believe that’s all. Thank

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1	you, sir. 
2			THE COURT:	Let’s take a recess. Please
3	refrain from discussing the case. Take a 10- or 15-minute
4	recess. We’ll call you back in. Thank you.
5		(WHEREUPON, A RECESS WAS TAKEN, AFTER WHICH THE
6		FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS CONTINUED IN THE HEARING
7		AND PRESENCE OF THE JURY)
8			THE COURT:	All right. Show the jury is back,
9	all present. Mr. Carlson, you may proceed with your
10	questions.
11			MR. CARLSON:	Thank you, Your Honor.
12	- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
13				CROSS-EXAMINATION
14	BY MR. CARLSON:
15	Q	Mr. Perkins, did I understand you correctly that you
16	performed luminol testing on the hammer in question?
17	A	Yes, sir, I did.
18	Q	Could you show me what parts of the hammer that you
19	performed luininol testing on, sir?
20	A	I sprayed the entirety of the hammer from the handle
21	through to the head, both sides.
22	Q	And with what result?
23	A	The luininol glowed -- the hammer glowed over its
24	entirety. The handle portion, where a hand would be, glowed
25	the best -- lighter amounts up here towards the head.

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA-OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1		The head itself, being of metal, will glow; and 
2	I made no determination as to the possibility of blood upon
3	the hammerhead.
4	Q	And the reason that you didn’t do that was why?
5	A	It being made of metal will impart a glow upon itself
6	because of the fact that luminol will react with certain
7	metals and rust.
8	Q	And the fact that there may have been some glowing on
9	the handle, that would be consistent with someone who had
10	wiped the handle; is that correct?
11	A	That is one possibility.
12	Q	Well, but it would be consistent with that, correct?
13	A	Yes, it would.
14	Q	Now, you told us, sir, that you had been to a one—week
15	school in blood spatter training; is that correct? And you
16	also had completed a course from the Oklahoma City Police
17	Department; is that correct?
18	A	Those are the two formal courses I have attended, yes.
19	Q	And isn’t it a fact, sir, that you are not a member
20	of the International Association of Blood Pattern Association?
21	You’re just waiting to be accepted; isn’t that correct?
22	A	I am pending acception, yes.
23	Q	And isn’t it a fact, sir, that you in fact, previous
24	to this point in time, have only been qualified to testify
25	in blood spatter three times; is that correct?

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA-OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

l	A	I have qualified again -- Today’s Friday? -- Wednesday 
2	in Payne county.
3	Q	So four times then; is that correct?
4	A	I have testified five times in the field of blood
5	spatters.
6	Q	All right. You’ve never testified other than in
7	Oklahoma; is that correct, sir?
8	A	Correct, within the state of Oklahoma.
9	Q	You’ve never taught any courses in regard to blood
10	spatter, have you sir?
11	A	No, I have not taught blood spatter schools.
12	Q	You have not written any articles dealing with blood
13	spatter analysis and interpretation, have you, sir?
14	A	In my papers on luminol, it discusses the ability to
15	find high velocity spatter after it’s been cleaned up. Those
16	deal with blood spatter.
17	Q	But so far as the interpretation of blood spatter and
18	blood spatter staining and pattern, you’ve written no papers
19	that deal with that particular subject, have you, sir?
20	A	Not of the visible blood spatters, no, sir.
21	Q	And by the same token, you have not written any books,
22	obviously, in regard to blood spatter, have you, sir?
23	A	I have written no books.
24	Q	With regard to the two papers which you did write in
25	regard to luminol, they have not been published as of yet.

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1	They are awaiting publication; isn’t that correct? 
2	A	They were presented at our spring training session of
3	the Southwestern Association of Forensic Scientists and await
4	publication.
5		The fall meeting is when the next journal will
6	come out, and those two papers have been accepted for publish
7	at that time.
8	Q	But I am correct, they have not been published formally;
9	is that correct?
10	A	Correct.
11			MR. CORGAN:	Objection. It’s been asked and
12	answered.
13			THE COURT:	It’s been answered.
14	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	Now, with regard to your opinion, your
15	opinion says that it is consistent with medium velocity blood
16	spatter on the particular shirt. Consistent -- that’s correct,
17	is it not?
18	A	The pattern is consistent with the medium velocity spatter.
19	Q	And we know that consistent does not mean that it was
20	definitely caused by it; isn’t that correct, sir?
21	A	That is true.
22	Q	Matter of fact, we know that there are a number of sources
23	of medium velocity blood spatter, don’t we?
24	A	Could you give me an example, and I’ll tell you if it’s
25	true or not?

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1	Q	All right. Would you agree with me, sir, that medium 
2	velocity blood spatter can be caused by coughing, wheezing,
3	anything of that nature?
4	A	Expectorate blood, yes, sir.
5	Q	All right. And would you agree with me, sir, that there
6	are additional sources of medium velocity blood spatter?
7		For instance, if you hit a pattern of blood, it
8	will spatter it and could cause medium velocity blood spatter;
9	isn’t that correct?
10	A	That would be projected blood. That is true.
11	Q	And would you also agree with me, sir, that whenever
12	you shake someone, blood will become aerial; isn’t that correct
13	A	In shaking a person, for example, if there’s blood in
14	their hair, the blood droplets will be quite small as they
15	come off the ends of the hair. Yes, that would be medium
16	velocity.
17	Q	All right. Now, with regard to the shirt in the front
18	area here, you did establish that there were certain transfer
19	marks, were there not, on this particular shirt?
20	A	Yes, sir, down in the lower portion of the shirt in
21	the front.
22	Q	And I want you to tell me, sir, with regardto this
23	particular shirt, I want you to show me the particular pattern
24	that you feel like that you’re saying is cast—off. Would
25	you step down here and show me?

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA—OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1		(THE WITNESS LEFT THE STAND AND STOOD BY MR. 
2		CARLSON)
3	A	As I have said, cast-off from a weapon can cause medium
4	velocity spatters.
5		These spatters coming from a direction of -- from
6	the lower portion of the shirt coming to the top portion
7	are characteristic of those patterns.
8	Q	(By Mr. Carlson)	And by the same token, on the other
9	particular sleeve, would you show us what you think is
10	cast-off?
11	A	This pattern here associated with the back of the left
12	sleeve shows directionality at an angle to the shirt. A
13	possibility is cast-- off from a weapon.
14	Q	Anything else on here, sir, that you feel and that you
15	say is cast -- off?
16	A	There is a possibility of these small stains that are
17	up high on the shirt as coming -- as an arcing from over
18	the top to hitting the back of the shirt.
19		However, due to the fact that they’re very diffuse,
20	meaning that the shirt was wet and soaked them in, it has
21	destroyed the original shape of the stain.
22		I do not know about these stains in the back. This
23	one could be associated with. This one could be a soak
24	through on the front.
25		But the preponderance of the spatter that is intact

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1	is upon the backside of the left sleeve and the backside
2	of the right sleeve.
3	Q	And it’s a fact that’s what you based your opinion on
4	as being cast-off; isn’t that correct?
5	A	That’s one possibility of that pattern as being cast-off.
6	Q	Now, are you saying, sir, that -- You’re not saying,
7	as I understand your testimony, that there’s any possibility
8	of cast-off here on the front; is that correct?
9	A	The stains in the front can be from cast-off as an object
10	is going back and forth. It can be spatter caused by coming
11	from a bloodied object going into the air maybe through a
12	shaking motion or through a hitting motion -- but the blood
13	coming back and impacting into the surface directly opposite
14	from it.
15	Q	We agree there’s a number of possibilities, don’t we,
16	sir?
17	A	Yes, sir.
18		(THE WITNESS RETURNED TO THE WITNESS STAND)
19	Q	(By Mr. Carlson)	Now, with regard to the hammer, sir,
20	you said that there was glowing along the handle of the
21	hammer.
22	A	Yes, sir.
23	Q	And with regard to that particular handle, there were
24	certain spots on that handle, were there not?
25	A	There are certain areas marked upon that hammer.

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA—OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	Q	Would you show me those spots, please? 
2	A	As if you’re holding the hammer to drive in a nail or
3	so, on the outside edge, the right side, there are certain
4	areas circled.
5		Some contain negative in parentheses marks; and
6	some contain positive marks, meaning pluses and minuses.
7		And some other circling on the backside which
8	contains a negative mark -- a minus sign within parentheses.
9	Q	Could you point out to me one of these spots on -- these
10	blood spots on the handle where they were?
11	A	Well, I’m saying that there’s a possibility of blood
12	on this handle. I did not make these marks upon this hammer.
13	I do not know what testing was done with these areas that
14	are circled and marked.
15	Q	Wouldn’t you agree with me, sir,that if someone had
16	a hammer and wiped it, that would account, or could account,
17	for your film along the hammer? We’ve established that,
18	have we not?
19	A	That is a possibility.
20	Q	All right. And, sir, isn’t it a fact that if we had
21	blood spots on that particular hammer, that that would be
22	more consistent with the hammer having been laying there
23	somewhere and the spatter hit the hammer because the spots
24	would have come on the hammer after it was wiped off? Would
25	you agree with that?

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA-OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	A	Could you ask that question again? You’ve lost me.
2	Q	Let me rephrase it. If there are spots on that
3	particular hammer handle, wouldn’t you agree with me that
4	that’s more consistent with the hammer having been laying
5	and spatter having hit the hammer than simply a film? Don’t
6	you agree with that, sir?
7	A	When an object strikes another object, blood, as it
8	leaves the first object, will impact upon the second object.
9	And if it’s aerial in nature, it will form spots.
10		However, how those spots got there, whether it
11	layed on the floor or if it was being used, I do not know.
12	Q	Wouldn’t you agree with me that if there were spots
13	on that particular hammer, those spots certainly could have
14	been formed by the hammer laying- somewhere when the blood
15	was aerial in nature and struck and -landed on the handle
16	of the hammer? That’s a possibility, is it not?
17	A	A possibility with a hammer or an object laying on the
18	floor as blood is being imparted.
19		However, in relationship to this hammer, I do not
20	know any facts about that.
21	Q	All right. Now, sir, you were not able to determine
22	the point or the height or origin from which the blood spatter
23	came that was aerial in nature at this crime scene, were
24	you?
25	A	Upon which item, sir?

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA — OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	Q	Well, on any of the items. 
2	A	On any of the items? I did not at the scene do any
3	analysis of the spatters as to determine height or
4	directionality.
5		I observed the fact that there were numerous
6	spatters, some stomps, that there were blood smears upon
7	the floor.
8		The scene has -- when I got there was quite much
9	time later. I don’t know what might have been altered in
10	the time frame.
11		Upon the objects, such as the shirt, I would not
12	determine the height and origin of the directionality of
13	the stain because it is an absorbent material and alters
14	the blood droplet itself as it soaks into the fabric.
15	Q	Wouldn’t you agree with me, sir, since the shirt is
16	a movable object that you’re not able to determine at what
17	angle the blood struck that particular shirt, are you, sir?.
18	A	No, sir. I can only give generalities as to the
19	direction upon the shirt at which they came from. However,
20	where that shirt was in relationship to the original scene,
21	I do not know.
22	Q	If we were going to determine specifically how that
23	blood got on that shirt, that would be an important factor
24	as to the angle of that shirt in order for you to interpret
25	how the spatter got on, wouldn’t it, sir?

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA-OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	A	There would be a lot more facts that I would have tot.
2	know before I could make those type of determina
3	Q	Now, the main indicia and the main criteria for which
4	you determined that these spatters are medium velocity
5	spatters is the size of the spatter; isn’t that correct?
6	A	The size and the shape and the way they’re deposited
7	upon the shirt.
8	Q	Now, with regard to this particular spatter on the back
9	right shoulder of the shirt, you’re not able to determine
10	whether or not these particular spots came from up or down,
11	are you, sir?
12	A	Could you bring the shirt closer, please?
13	Q	Sure. 
14	A	The directionality of some of these spatters shows a
15	directionality of this direction, meaning from the upper
16	right outside of the sleeve going towards a centerline towards
17	the back. They show directionality of this angle here.
18		Now, where it came from in relationship to -- in
19	three dimensions, I cannot tell you.
20	Q	That’s my point. In a three-dimension area, you can’t
21	tell from which direction these came from, correct?
22	A	I just know the direction that the stain was moving
23	when it impacted the shirt: But where exactly it came from
24	in relationship to three-dimensional space, I cannot.
25	Q	Same way with regard to the other shoulder.

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA—OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	A	That is correct.I can show directionality as to the 
2	direction of the forcethat the blood was going at the time
3	it struck the shirt.But where it came from in the three
4	dimensions, I cannot.
5	Q	So the best that we can tell then is that the blood
6	came from an angle and struck the shirt; is that correct?
7	A	That is true. The blood was aerial and did come in
8	at an angle.
9	Q	Now, with the spatters that are on the back of the shirt
10	on the right side -- and we’d have the same situation, would
11	we not, from your information?
12	A	Which stains are you referring to, sir?
13	Q	 Back on the right side. Any of these right here.
14	A	Upon the back of the shirt?
15	Q	Yes, right here.
16	A	Those are diffused, and I’m unable to determine.
17	directionality upon those stains.
18	Q	All right. Same way with regard to these; is that-
19	correct?
20	A	Those are small spatters. But as to directionality,
21	cannot be determined.
22	Q	You would need more information in regard to those
23	particular spatters in order to try to attempt to determine
24	directionality, wouldn’t you, sir?
25	A	Quite a bit of information.

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1	Q	All right. Now, there s no way that you can tell us
2	what made these particular transfer marks on the front of
3	the shirt, what you call transfer marks, can you, sir?
4	A	They’re merely swipes. What object caused those swipes,
5	I do not know.
6	Q	In other words, any bloody object could do that. You
7	agree with that, do you not?
8	A	It’s an object that has a flattened surface. Hair makes
9	characteristic swipe marks. These do not appear to be hair
10	swipes.
11	Q	In other words, if a person had blood on his hands --
12	And I think you will agree with me with this -- that he had
13	blood on his hands and he wipes himself, he’s going to get --
14	he can get a transfer mark. 
15	A	That’s a very common way of getting transfer marks.
16	Q	Or if you have blood on any type of an object, other
17	than the one that you’ve eliminated --
18		For instance, there’s blood on this and I bump
19	against it or wipe against, you can get transfer marks. You
20	agree with that, do you not, sir?
21	A	Yes, sir.
22	Q	So there’s nothing particular about these transfer marks
23	that we can really tell anything about other than they’re
24	transfer marks. You agree with that, do you not?
25	A	They are transfer marks. As to what caused them, I

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA—OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPTCOPY

1	do not know. 
2	Q	Now, you did not plot or chart the blood spatter or
3	blood pattern there at the scene of the crime, did you, sir?
4	A	No, sir, I did not.
5	Q	And that would be some more information that would aid,
6	would it not, in the determination of the type and origin
7	of blood spatter and from where it came; isn’t that correct?
8	A	It is helpful. In this instance, there were many other
9	persons within the scene, for example the EMT’s, who were
10	not careful in where they stepped and where they placed their
11	equipment and caused a lot of disruption of the patterns
12	upon the floors.
13	Q	But you would agree with me, would you not, sir, that
14	if you chart -- plot the blood spatter that is on immovable
15	objects, such as on the wall, such as on the ceiling, and
16	things that do not move, that that could be of aid in
17	interpretation of the height of the origin of the blood
18	spatter; isn’t that correct?
19	A	That is true, if it’s a smooth, nonporous surface.
20	Q	Now, if Mr. Reimer were to testify in this particular
21	court that two of the pieces of glass which you sent to him
22	to examine where visible with the naked eye, you would not
23	disagree with that, would you, sir? -
24	A	His eyesight might be better than mine. I don’t know.
25	Q	And those are the two pieces of glass that he said that

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA — OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	 were sent to you that you had designated from the hammer
2	handle; is that correct?
3	A	I sent him some glass fragments that I removed from
4	the hammer handle.
5	Q	And maybe his eyesight is better; but if he were to
6	testify that we could lay those two pieces of glass out here
7	on the table or on this podium or on this bar and he said
8	we could see them with his naked eye, you wouldn’t have any
9	quarrel with him, would you, sir?
10	A	No, sir. Once they are taken and layed out in the open,
11	they may be visible to the naked eye.
12		However, when I first observed the hammer, I did
13	not observe the glass until I used higher magnification to
14	look down within the scratches of the hammer handle.
15	Q	No one specifically asked you to look for glass, did
16	they, sir?
17	A	No, sir, they did not.
18	Q	Now, this hammer is an old hammer; is it not?
19	A	I do not know the age of the hammer.
20	Q	Well, would you agree with me by looking at it, it’s
21	a hammer that has some age on it?
22	A	It is a hammer that hasa lot of wear upon it.
23	Q	And if it has a lot of wear upon it, we know that it’s
24	been used for a number of different things, don’t we, sir?
25	A	A hammer is intended to be used for many different things.

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1	Q	Right. And a hammer’s a hammer. You may hit it, beat 
2	it with whatever.
3	A	It can be used in many different ways.
4	Q	There’s no way that we know what this particular hammer
5	was used to hit or break in the past, do we, sir?
6	A	I have no personal knowledge.
7	Q	And even if this hammer were, say, used by children,
8	we don’t know what they would have used this particular hammer
9	for in the way of hitting or breaking, do we, sir?
10	A	I have no personal knowledge.
11	Q	All right. Now, you said that you conducted luminol
12	testing in the house; isn’t that correct?
13	A	That is correct.
14	Q	And you went all through the house in luminol testing.
15	A	Yes, sir. You were present.
16	Q	And at nowhere in that particular house did we find
17	anywhere that indicated anywhere where somebody tried to
18	wipe or clean blood of f of any particular area, did we, sir?
19	A	The sink, the right basin of the kitchen sink shows
20	the patterns associated with someone washing their hands
21	in that sink.
22	Q	But we know from testimony that the defendant washed
23	his hands there in the presence of some officers. We know
24	that.
25	A	Oh. I did not know that, sir.

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA — OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	Q	Other than, we found no place in the house where anybody 
2	tried to clean up, wipe off anything from the luminol testing,
3	did we, sir?
4	A	I did not observe any other patterns other than
5	associated with the sink in attempts to clean up something.
6			MR. CARLSON:	Bear with me a moment, Your
7	Honor.
8	Q	(By Mr. Carlson)	You made reference to this particular
9	chair. Mr. Perkins, let me ask you, if I understood you
10	correctly, you determined that it was laying on one side
11	or the other, correct?
12	A	My opinion is it layedon one side, which would be the
13	left side of the chair as if you were sitting in it.
14	Q	There’s no way that you can--tell how many times this
15	particular chair was moved inside the residence, correct?
16	A	I do not know. 
17	Q	And there’s no way that you know where this particular
18	chair was originally located inside the residence from the
19	spatter, do you, sir?
20	A	In relationship to the spatter patterns on it, I do
21	not know.
22	Q	And in fact if you had been able and did plot the spatter
23	at the scene of the crime, then you might be able to tell
24	us a little more about where the chair stood, isn’t that
25	correct, where it’s layed?

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA—OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	A	There is that possibility. 
2	Q	Because the spatter at the scene could tell us somewhat
3	the origin of the spatter, origin of the origination; isn’t
4	that correct?
5	A	Where the blood originated from, yes, that is a
6	possibility.
7	Q	All right. From that particular chair, that’s the only
8	thing that you can really tell us is that in your opinion,
9	it was laying on its left side; isn’t that correct?
10	A	That is true. The chair I received in the laboratory.
11	I’ve not been to the original scene to see the chair at the
12	scene when it was there originally.
13	Or, I don’t know how it’s been moved. I don’t
14	know how it’s been treated up until the time I received it.
15	Q	So, to me, that would indicate to me the chair really,
16	from your opinion, I don’t see any significance to that
17	particular chair. Do you?
18	A	I was asked to look at the chair and determine; if
19	spatters were present, what range they would be within; if
20	I could make some determination as to the placement within
21	the crime scene.
22		I cannot make a placement. I cannot determine
23	a placement.
24		I just noted the fact that it did contain low and
25	medium velocity spatters upon the chair and that the most

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA — OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	consistent position it was it would be on its left side.
2	Q	Let’s do something for the ladies and gentlemen of the
3	jury for just a moment.
4		I’ll give you a calculator and let you work along
5	with me here for a second.
6		You talked about medium velocity blood spatter
7	of between 5 and 25 feet per second; is that correct?
8	A	That is the force involved for medium velocity is 5
9	to 25 feet per second of force.
10	Q	Let’s convert that over for just a moment. First, let’s
11	take 5 feet per second times 60 seconds per minute, times
12	60 minutes in an hour, times one mile, 5,280 feet.
13		And that would give you the conversion, would it
14	not, to miles per hour? Would you agree with me on that?
15	A	Five feet per second -- that’s the low end of medium
16	velocity -- times 60 seconds per minute will give me the
17	feet in minutes, times the 60 minutes per hour will give
18	me the feet in hours, times 5,280 feet in a mile will give
19	me the miles per hour. Correct.
20	Q	And would you do that for us? Or if I said to you that
21	that was 3.4 miles per hour, would you agree with me? And
22	you can work it out there.
23	A	I have 3.409 miles per hour.
24	Q	And by the same token, if we did 25 feet per second
25	and did the same conversion, would you tell me what you get?

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1	A	17.05. 
2	Q	17.05 miles per hour, correct?
3	A	Correct.
4	Q	Thank you.
5			MR. CARLSON:	That’s all we have, Your Honor.
6			THE COURT:	Redirect.
7	- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
8			REDIRECT EXAMINATION
9	BY MR. CORGAN:
10	Q	Mr. Perkins, we’ve had discussion about I believe it
11	was expectorate blood, projected blood, shaking a person
12	as being possible explanations for the blood on the shirt.
13		Sir, does that change your opinion as .to the source
14	of the blood on that shirt?
15			MR. CARLSON:	Objection, Your Honor. Asked
16	and answered. He’s given his opinion.
17			THE COURT:	You may answer.
18	A	Could you repeat the question, please?
19	Q	(By Mr. Corgan)	Yes. Given those other possibilities
20	or explanations, does that change your opinion as to the
21	source of blood on this shirt?
22	A	My opinion has not changed that the blood -- the
23	spatters are of the medium velocity range of 5 to 25 feet
24	per second force, and that this type of pattern is commonly
25	associated with blunt trauma force.

DISTRICT COURT OF OKLAHOMA—OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT-COPY

1	Q	Thank you. 
2			MR. CORGAN:	That’s all.
3			MR. CARLSON:	We have nothing further.
4			THE COURT:	Step down. Counsel approach.
5		(AN OFF-THE-RECORD BENCH CONFERENCE WAS HAD BETWEEN
6		THE COURT AND COUNSEL OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE
7		JURY AND COURT REPORTER, AFTER WHICH THE FOLLOWING
8		PROCEEDINGS CONTINUED)
9			THE COURT:	We’ll recess for lunch at this
10	time. We’ll start back at one o’clock. Don’t discuss the
11	case. One o’clock.
12		(WHEREUPON, A LUNCH RECESS WAS TAKEN)
13		(FURTHER PROCEEDINGS WERE HAD, NOT HAVING BEEN
14		TRANSCRIBED PER REQUEST OF COUNSEL)
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lh1998-99, 2000