In August of 1981, Gordon Duenow conducted taped interviews with a number of residents of the Kensington area who had been near neighbors of Olof Ohman. I have gone through the transcripts of 5 of these interviews in which a total of 7 people gave their recollections (there were several other interviews on file as well - a cursory glance showed the information to be essentially the same).< br>
These interviews were conducted partly in response to the Gran tapes, a 1967 interview with Walter Gran who claimed his father had helped Olof Ohman carve the Kenstington Rune stone - the transcripts of those tapes not published until the Winter 1976 issue of Minnesota History magazine. It is interesting to note that Duenow's interviews seem to be (aside from Landsverk's interviews in 1961) the only interviews which tried to get first hand statements from people who knew Ohman and had seen the Rune Stone, since Winchell's investigation in 1909-10.
The overwhelming sense that one gets of Ohman from these interviews was that Ohman was an honest man - indeed, that very word 'honest' is used in every interview when describing the him. He was a large man, able to pound in nails with a single blow - a rough carpenter and not a stonemason. Not a churchgoer, though his family went, and indeed one time was asked to look after a neighbors goods one Sunday morning, when that neighbor had been the subject of some theft.
The Rune Stone apparantly did lay facedown outside the granary after it was returned from Northwestern University in 1899 - one story has Ohman using it to straighten nails on. Ohman, by all accounts, did not know or carve any runic symbols, and though he knew Swede well enough could not read or write English.
Of Walter Gran, however, people had a different view. One person claimed he was OK as far as he was concerned, but others said he was undependable and given to telling 'fish stories'. One person said that he had gone to Canada because he got a woman in trouble (though she was described as wild as well). When he came back during his father's sickness, he did end up marrying her.
Let me give some examples from the transcripts:
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Clarence Larson (age 84)
Gordon: The Minnesota Historical Society has, you know, tape recordings with Walter and Josephone Granc Carson, which contend that their father, John P. Gran, helped Ohman careve the Runestone. Do you believe this to be a fact?
Clarence: No, no, no, no , that I don't believe.
Gordon: Why?
Clarence: Because they were not very good friends in the first place. That I know.
Gordon: Why, why weren't they very good friends?
Clarence: Well, I tell ya, Ohman was a good, hard working man, you know. Gran was more what you call a big-shot. He used to haul the whiskey peddlars. That's what he did. Ohman didn't go for that stuff.
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Gordon: Evidently you personally knew Walter Gran, didn't you?
Clarence: Oh ya. ...
Gordon: Was he what you call a dependable man?
Clarence: No, he was not very dependable, that I would say.
Gordon: Did he make a good living or what did he do for a living?
Clarence: Well, I tell you, he was kind of a horse yelkie in one way, trading horses and so forth.
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Gordon: have you found or seen any kind of carving containing Runic writing on the Ohman farm or any nearby farm?
Clarence: No, no, no.
Gordon: Was Olaf OHman what you would consider a skilled stone carver?
Clarence: No, he never worked with stone.
Gordon: Never did huh?
Clarence: No, the only thing he worked with was carpentry - rough carpenter.
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Gordon: So, after the excitement of the discovery of the Runestone had subsided and the stone was granted a hoax, where was it placed until Hjalmar Holand came into the picture?
Clarence: Well at that time when Delmar Olan got a hold of it, he come out here, out there further in that direction there is where that old shack was where he had it laying as a stepping stone. There was two parts to it, kind of a grainery and then a lean-to. That's where they had it. Well it was turned upside down. What Ohman did, he used it to straighten nails out. That's what he used it for.
Gordon: Some say it was a step too, into the granary.
Clarence: Well, it was a stepping stone.
Gordon: It mad a good place to straighten out nails. Huh?
Clarence: Ya. Well first you know, I think what they did, they put it up by the house then, but it didn't fit so they put it down by the old granary.
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Gordon: What would you say what kindof man was Olof Ohman really, in your mind? Give me... What do yo think?
Clarence: Well, as far as what we knew the Ohman family, we worked together alot you know. I think I would say he was the most honest man you could find, most trusted man.
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Gordon: Do you believe there are any basis at all t the charges that Ohman carved the stone?
Clarence: No, no I know he wouldn't.
Gordon: You don't think he could carve that?
Clarence: I tell ya, them carving, when you look at that Rune, there's a perfect edge. You couldn't make it more perfect with a typewriter and Ohman didn't have any schooling whatsoever. Five, six months education and that was Swedish. So I know Ohman couldn't carve the stone.
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[regarding Walter Gran's claim of Olof Ohman showing John Gran how to carve runes while they worked together at Larson's place]
Clarence: That I know they never worked together because Ohman never worked with Gran, but he did work with Mattson. That I know. They worked together a lot.
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Emil Mattson (84)
Gordon: You were a close neighbor then to the Ohman family?
Emil: We were only -- it's only a quarter of a mile from our land t where the Runestone was found.
Gordon: Oh, I see. The Minnesota Historical Society has tape recordings with Walter and Josephine P. Gran which contend that their father John P. Gran helped Ohman carve the Runestone. Do you believe this?
Emil: No. i don't beleive it. And I don't think anybody else around here that knew him believed it either.
Gordon: You were talking about Ohman. What kind of a man would you say he was?
Emil: As far as I'm concerned, he was pretty honest in every way. We had -- he had exchanged work with my dad for -- my dad exchanged work with him from 1890-1907. They were building barns and helping each other and they had no trouble.
****
Gordon: Did you ever see the stone when, oh yes, you mentioned just here a little while ago that you saw the stone after it was found.
Emil: No, it was my dad that seen it only a few days, but I seen it after it come home. They had taken it to the bank.
Gordon: Yes. But I mean after it was back home on the farm; aftr it was considered a hoax, then you saw it. Where was it then?
Emil: It was laying there by the granary.
Gordon: Some said it was nside the granary and some said ti was on the outside.
Emil: No. It laid - you stepped on it to get into the door.
****
Gordon: Then you don't believe there's any basis for the charges that Ohman says that his dad helped; Walter Gran says his dad helped Ohman carve the stone?
Emil:No, no. That's only according to Walter's joke. Arthur said he got a little - Arthur claims that Gran, when they heard about it, they got jealous and they thought Ohman was going to make money on that. That's what Gran was, so Arthur said he come over there and he had seen it an he got so jealous, he said they didn't know. That's when they started thes rumors afterwards.
****
Gordon: They said Ohman never went to church.
Emil: No. He didn't got to church, but as far as honesty was concerned, he was aboslutely as honest as the day is long.
****
Gordon: He never even worked with stone? Did Ohman did he ever work with stone at all that you know of.
Emil: No.
Gordon: When he was out doing carpenter work, did he cut the stone for the foundations?
Emil: No. Ya. Well-eh he could drill a hole, you knoow same as my dad. And then put some powder in and then blast it. That's all. Even Walter did that.
Gordon: Oh he was a good stone man too, huh?
Emil: Well, he made the hole in the stone, then he put powder in, and then he put the fuse in and then it didn't go off and then he went over to see what was wrong and then the fuse blew up right in his face...
Gordon: Walter wasn't an expert rock blaster, huh?
Emil: No. And I heard about Aurthur and the Ringdall boys and Walter, they went up t fish this smelt, you know; well they didn't get a darn thing because the smelt didn't run. Then they come back to Kensington then and when they come to the liquor store in Kensingon there why they asked Walter, "How was fishing?" "Oh heck, " he says, "there were so many smelt" he says and then Aurthur says, "The darn fool." he says; he sat right there he says "We had to buy the smelt," he says "that we got in the car."
Gordon: Walter said there was so many, it that it?
Emil: Ya. He said, 'that's the way Walter was, he said - he played tricks on everyone. He - you know - fish stories and stuff.
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Ole Nelson (87)
Gordon: Now the Minnesota Historical Society has tape recordings with Walter Gran and Jospehine Gran which content that their father, John P. Gran, helped Ohman carve the Runestone. Do you believe this to be a fact?
Ole: No, I don't believe that. Nope.
Gordon: Why do you suppose that Walter Gran would make those statements?
Ole: Well, I just don't know, but there must be some reason why he - he want to - well - he must have something against Ohman, I think.
Gordon: Weren't they good friends an they worked together quite a bit?
Ole: Ya they were good friends at one time I know. They were real good friends.
Gordon: What kind of man do you think Olof Ohman was?
Ole: Well, I thin he was a good, honest man. i got to know him when I was just a yong boy, because when he walked to town he stopped in there at my folks. So I got to know him as a young boy. But then as I grew up of course, I didn't get to see him so very much. But I always thought he was an honest good man.
Gordon: What would you say about John P. Gran? What kind of man was he?
Ole: Well, as far as I knew about Gran I thought he was a good man. he had - he lived out on a farm here, but then he moved into Kensington. I just don't know for sure what he did down there. I don't think he did probably more or less retired at that time. But I knew him quite well. I can't say anything bad about him.<
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Selma & Milo Spilith (77 & 78)
Gordon: The Minnesota Historical Society has tape recordings with Walter and Josephine Gran, her married name was Carson, which contend that their father John P. Gran helped Ohman carve the Runestone. Do you believe this to be a fact?
Milo: No, I think this is all false. I don't think either of them was capable of doing anything like that.
Selma: No, I'm not so sure they couldn't do that.
Gordon: What kind of man would you say Olaf Ohman was?
Milo: Well, I would say he was an honest man, but I think he was kind of a good carpenter, he wasn't a finished carpenter. But otherwise he was a nice man, always behaved himself and everything.
****
Gordon: Did you personally know Walter Gran?
Milo: Yes I sure did.
Gordon: When? As a young man or...
Milo: Oh I got to know him during the 30's when our sons were born and in the dry years when we had to got to work for the Highway on roads, hauling gravel and different things like that.
Gordon: Anything to make a buck, huh?
Milo: Anything to make a buck, a living.
Gordon: What kind of man did you say that he was?
Milo: Well, he was an awful cheerful guy. Told some good stories at noon hour, kept the whole gang listening to him. So he was quite a story teller. I'll tell ya.
Gordon: Did you believe everything he said?
Milo: No, I didn't believe very much of what he said.
****
Gordon: Do you actually then recall very well Gran's trip to Canada?
Milo: Well yes, I remember during the time when I heard about it he left and moved up there.
Gordon: Why did he go up there?
Milo: Well, I don't know. After he got this woman in trouble he wanted to get away from it all.
****
Gordon: Have you found or seen any kind of carving containing Runic writing on the Ohman farm or any nearby farm?
Milo: Never heard of Runic until I seen that stone.
Gordon: Would you say that Olaf Ohman was a skilled rock carver?
Milo: No, I'm sure he would be awfully green at that, anything like that. No I'm positive he wouldn't do anything like that.
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Gordon: Do you believe there is any basis at all for the charges made by Walter Gran that his father helped Ohman carve the stone?
Milo: No, I think that's all a lie. I don't believe a word of it.
Selma: No they were too busy to do anything like that. I know that for sure.
Milo: They lived too far apart. The must have lived between two and three miles apart and I don't think they seen each other that often.
Selma: At that time they traveled quite a long ways, you know.
Milo: That was in horse and buggy days.
****
Gordon: In othe words you wouldn't put much stock in anything that Walter Gran said.
Milo: No, I wouldn't put in any stock in it.
Gordon: No stock at all huh?
Milo: No stock at all in it, because I think that's all...
Gordon: You worked for him for many years.
Milo: Yes, I worked for him for a number of years. I know he was quite a horse jocky.
Gordon: Why do you suppose he made up that story?
Milo: Well, I don't know. He must have had some outside help to get some money out of it or something like that.
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Emil and Martin Johnson (90 & 95)
Gordon: Now, the Minnesota Historical Society has tape recordings with Walter and Josephine Gran Carson which contend that their father John P. Gran helped Ohman carve the Runestone. Is this a fact? That Anna Josephine Gran, her married name was Carson.
Emil: No, I don't think any of them people were ever able to carve a Runestone and as far as Ohman is concerned, he had too much work. He lived in the timber and he cut the timber and drove out the stumps in order to get some fields, so he could raise crops to live off of.
Gordon: Do you know what kind of a man John P. Gran was?
Emil: Well I didn't know John P. Gran too well, but I think he was pretty, pretty reliable man, I think. A little better fixed than the average fellow.
Gordon: You mentioned about Olaf Ohman being busy all the time. What kind of a man was he?
Emil: Ohman, I always figured he was a very honest man.
Gordon: That's about it. You knew him fairly well, though?
Emil: Oh I knew him fairly well.
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Gordon: Well did you know Andrew Anderson, who is claimed by some to have had a part in perpetrating the Runesonte stories? And what kind of a man was he?
Emil: Anddrew Anderson, who's that?
Martin: Andrew Anderson? Roy Rodgers?
Emil: Paul Bunyan? I really don't know.
Gordon: Sounds like he was an interesting character.
Emil: He was a terrifically bright man.
Gordon: He was?
Emil: Absolutely.
Martin: He made fun out of the whole thing.
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Gordon: Another one, do you personally know Walter Gran? He would have been 87 years old if he were alive.
Martin: Yes, I figured I knew him fairly well because we were out looking for homestead land in Montana together. I spent quite a bit of time with him.
Gordon: What kind of man was he?
Martin: As far as I was concerned he was Ok, but other people tell me otherwise. I don't know. I wouldn't know.
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Gordon: Do you know any other, have you seen or found or do you know anybody that seen or found any carvings containing Runic writing on the Ohman farm or on any nearby farm?
Emil: No, no.
Martin: No, we haven't.
Grdon: How about, would you consider Ohman a skilled stone carver?
Martin: No, no, no.
Gordon: You never saw him carve anything?
Martin: No, I didn't see him carve anything. He was always what you call a - a carpenter. He did rough carpentry.
Gordon: So he wouldn't be able to carve stone you don't think?
Martin: No, I don't think he'd be able to do it and he didn't have the time.
Emil: No.
Gordon: He didn't use stones in his building?
Martin: I don't think he had any buildings of stone, maybe basements but he always hired a stone mason to do that work.
****
Emil: Well, when I seen it, it was in a Hedberg Loan Office in Kensington and I think that was the same room as the Post Office. Like I said before, it still had mud on it. It hadn't been washed yet. It had been brought in that recently.
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Gordon: In other words you don't think there was any basis for the chareges that Walter says that his father helped Ohman carve the Runestone?
Martin: No, there's absolutely no basis for that.
Gordon: Do you think that Ohman just found it the way he says?
Emil: Yes, he fount it the way he says.
Martin: We were neightbors at that time.
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So there you have it. While I don't generally trust memories looking back over 70 - 80 years on specifics, the testimony of these people, particularly in regards to how they compliment each other seem to paint the clearest picture we have of Olof Ohman as a farmer, a carpenter, and an honest man. The confession given by Walter Gran pales before this, and makes it seem, if not an outright falsification, at least severely misrememberd.
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