Posted by MEL on August 28, 1997 at 14:56:07:
In Reply to: Well Put!! posted by AJ on August 28, 1997 at 14:31:57:
: : Mel--I applaud you for your concern--watchful eyes are a must. But observe him for a bit longer, take notes. List the items you consider to be traits and see if they begin to add up. Good luck!
A.J.,
Yes, that is what I am doing I have the article you have "Life of a Child: Childhood traits of serial killers" and have thought about it a bit, writing down some of the things that Dan has already now and even things in the past... I will type down now what it is that Dan has that I KNOW he has... also people I'll UPDATE anything I can on Dan ... just to keep a watchful eye....
Daydreaming (sexual fantasies) started at age 12
Isolation parents (whom everyone here knows about now-mother's instability father's drinking to summarize there)
Chronic lying he has lied to me a lot when we were dating... to get attention
Rebelliousness seems to want everything "his" way
destroying possessions (in his past) where he destroyed a table in his mother's place.
stealing also.
poor body image doesn't believe girls are attracted to him... I have told him it was because of his negativity...
temper tantrums he always says he has these temper tantrums
The most common traits in Dan are : ISOLATION, CHRONIC LYING, AND POOR BODY IMAGE....
also sexual frustration etc...
My mother has made the note of him being "insecure" in different ways She has said that my talks about SK's with him might push him over the edge I don't know ... it seems strange... could talks effect the mind? it may have an effect where it is repeated so often (the talks about SK's) that he begins to think differently and might think it is right... usually the talks are about what I have learned about SK's...
He is 21 yrs. old now but if you knew him he looks 16 and acts 16 but has the mind of a sexually frustrated man...
He has attempted to commit suicide over me... AFTER breaking up with me... he tried to jump off a bridge 3 times
He thinks no one cares for him... even though I do and he knows that... but all he wants is love...
if he were ever to become a sk... he'd be a disorganized one... that's my guess... From Mel...
Posted by delano on August 29, 1997 at 09:49:06:
In Reply to: About Dan.... observing him... DEL, X, SHESTALKER, and RACHEL read this for more info posted by MEL on August 28, 1997 at 14:56:07:
i have a few questions:
1) how much education has he had?
2) is he into pornography?
3) does he keep a journal?
4) what is his relationship with his mother and father like?(what are his feelings towards them?)
5) has he ever abused animals?
6) is he employed?
7) does he have any future plans?
8) does he abuse alcohol or drugs?
9) does he have any friends(other than you), male or female?
so he's trying to isolate himself from everyone now, is that right? how is that going? does he communicate with anyone at all? he lives with his parents...right?
all good things, del
Posted by Mel on August 29, 1997 at 15:51:51:
In Reply to: MEL: great observations..some ?'s for you.. posted by delano on August 29, 1997 at 09:49:06:
Del....
The answers to your questions:
1)Education-he has completed grade 11 but he has had poor marks throughout his life, he says he will complete grade 12 in sept. this year and will go to school (he has said that he went to meetings at school-I don't know anything further than that... don't know if he's telling the truth...)
2)Pornography-as far as I know, I don't think he is into porno but I fear he may get into it once he sinks himself into such a bigger depression that he will want more and more, that porno might be the only way he could stimulate *fantasies* What I do know is that his father who is a hmmm... what do you call these people... umm... woman-crazy person cuz his dad has put up some pics of women semi-naked in Dan's room, and all over the house His dad has some porno videos (one of them I have cuz Dan taped something over it for me the porno show whatever is called Busting Loose I don't know what it looks like... but Dan says it is full of naked women and stuff) it could be possible that Dan could get ahold of more videos and watch them...
3)Journal-Well I have heard before that he once kept a journal but doesn't have it anymore (I think that is what he said I'm not sure...) He isn't the creative type of person
4)Relationship with Parents:
Mother- he doesn't have a very good relationship with his mother... he sees her very rarely, well the truth is the relationship is improving but still... I wonder if he feels hostility towards her for not forgiving him for what he did Father-His dad has alcoholic problems and is never there for him.... it is almost like he doesn't have a dad at all and that it scars him... his dad doesn't know how to take care of him even though Dan is 21 years old (Dan is immature in some ways) Dan wishes that he could approach his father and vice versa so they could have a normal relationship but he is never there and complains that it's so hard for him to reach his dad....
Oh yes.... one thing I have to mention: He has complained to me saying "You are so lucky, Melissa.... you have all your friends and you have a brother and a sister" something in this tells me that he wants someone there for him all the time (notice that his father isn't there for him all the time and he realizes this to a great degree)
5)Abusing animals-no, definitely not. He loves animals as far as I know, he loves my cats Destiny and Coppurr and so I believe he never tortured an animal in his life
6)Employment-he isn't employed at all .... he says the government gives him money that is how he gets his money every month (he has a disability and says that the government pays for such disability-he needs medical supplies for his bladder problems I don't know the truth of this) He says he wishes he could have a job so he could attract women more easily but that he doesn't have enough confidence... but then he said he'll go to school in sept. to have a better chance of getting a job (seems like 'love' lives are more important than jobs to him)
7)Future plans-as far as I know, he says he wishes to be a travel agent and with his background in some form of economics that he studied he believes he may be able to be a travel agent....
8)abuse of alcohol\drugs-I don't think so..... he said that he doesn't drink, only on occassions such as New Year's, and that he never took drugs... he says he tries to fight his father to stop making him drink alcohol (I have tried telling him to "try and get your father to go to Al Anon whatever it's called" but there he complained he couldn't get to him)
9)Friends-he has some friends other than me, BEFORE HIS *HERMIT STATE* (which is what I'll call his state now meaning he'll isolate everyone INCLUDING ME the one he mostly trusts) Most of his friends are male, he has few female friends (and he has tried to hit on them cuz he "needed" someone)
And don't worry about the questions.... I am happy to answer any question anyone may need to ask as it is very important and that it may help me keep a watchful eye for symptoms of either serial rapist or serial killer....
Yes he is trying to isolate everyone from his life.... even me because I was his girlfriend and that it hurts him SO MUCH that I went out with him and then broke up with him because of his mistakes (he always complained of making so many mistakes-this is the reason why I believe that IF he were ever to become a sk he would be a disorganized one) I feel that he is in a world of his own, which is dark, one of loneliness and depression because he doesn't have the confidence to do anything that he wants to- I believe it is because of his age because he can't get women just like guys around his age and because he's getting older and hasn't had sex-(well he told me he never had it) I don't think he wants to communicate with anyone anymore because everyone shuts him down and he doesn't want to feel pain anymore.... I think that by locking himself it will make it worse because then no one will be there to help him I told him that no matter what I will always be there and I am still there for him except that he is shutting me away... He lives with only his dad and his dad's roommate.....
As for fantasies, I'll go into more detail here... I have never heard him mention a fantasy of violence BUT one fantasy he has told me about was saving me in Pearl Harbour and doing things (he has an obsession with the wars of history) whatever those things are I don't know... Actually he didn't speak about fantasies that often... but anyways he has said to me that he has fantasies that would make ME mad (cuz I have a certain repulsion to sex cuz I was molested, he knows about this-Del knows about this) He even tried to get advice from me about how to proceed with this older woman that he wanted to have one that he only knew for few weeks and he wanted to know how to approach her-whether to sleep with her or something and I said I couldn't help him there cuz I don't know how older people think like but I told him women are more romantic and like to be loved .... stuff like that.... (just so I could let him get the picture that aggression isn't right but I don't know how he took this or how he would do things)
There. That's more of my observations I have an excellent memory so I can answer any questions... sorry if I have gotten a bit off topic but to get clearer images of Dan I have tried my best to describe everything... just trying to get out as much as I could to let people analyze it better And everyone- thanx for giving me analyzations as much as you could it is greatly appreciated
From Mel
Posted by SheStalker on August 29, 1997 at 16:44:22:
In Reply to: Answers to your Questions, O WISE ONE :) Those who know the situation, read this as well posted by Mel on August 29, 1997 at 15:51:51:
Why are you "still there" for him? Why are you unable to disengage from this obviously unequal/possibly dangerous situation? Why do you feel your time and energy is well-spent in this relationship? How does Dan deserve your attention?
As I recommended before and X certainly has also done so, Gavin de Becker's book would be extremely beneficial for you to read. Another book, a real cheap deal you can pick up at the bookstore is called 'Nasty Men' by Jay Carter. This book, although not aimed at stalkers and psychopaths, may well help you understand many of the tricks Dan is pulling on you to keep you tied to him and why you may be going along with them, as do other nice women.
Good luck, Mel. I hope you can work yourself out of this situation. My concern is not that Dan is a future serial killer but may well become a stalker with you as a target.
Posted by del on August 29, 1997 at 19:02:07:
In Reply to: Mel, take a look at your role in this posted by SheStalker on August 29, 1997 at 16:44:22:
mel's trying to help dan. he's not a serial killer..yet, and she's trying to help him avoid becoming one. i think it'd be even more dangerous for her to cut ties with him and ignore him. he's got some serious mental problems, and he's going to need some guidance to pick himself up. ignorance is what makes a SK. why make another? for what i know about dan, mel is not a targeted victim.
del.
Posted by SheStalker on August 29, 1997 at 19:38:54:
In Reply to: she's trying to... posted by del on August 29, 1997 at 19:02:07:
:Well, I guess we have two camps here. I, personally, do not see that Dan's problems MAKE him a future serial killer. First of all, there needs to be just the right ingredients and just the right triggers. Many people have the same problems as Dan. They don't become serial killers. Let's go on to suppose that Dan has every serial killer trait on the block and this must include a totally hatred of women(or other victim groups) and a desire to carry through the ultimate revenge and power trip, murder. Many people would do many other things, but murder would make them sick. It is a very rare taste. If all of the above is true for Dan and he is a serial killer about to emerge, I guarantee you nothing in the world would stop him now except death or incarceration. Mel, doing her best to be his friend, could never make up for all the years it took to set this in force. He would be so psychologically depraved at this point, he would only be using Mel for his own purposes. On the other hand, he is a more normal kind of desperate person, a stalker scenario is more likely to occur. He may place more and more importance on his relationship with Mel and then if she tries to end it, he may become totally hopeless and distraught. That is why I feel this is a good time to disengage before things get more serious. A good rule of thumb to follow is Gavin de Becker's threat assessment called JACA. Basically, it means to analyze four area. J means justification. Would Dan feel he has a reason to hurt someone? A - does Dan feel he has alternatives; another friend, a therapist, etc. C - does Dan care about the consequences; does he care if he goes to prison or dies? and A - does he have the ability to carry out a threat? Does he own a gun and threaten to use it, for example? If all of the JACA elements exist, then there is real danger for the targeted person. If only a couple or none exist, then the danger is limited. And this is a good time to get the heck out of a relationship that could move on to a full JACA scenario.
Just my opinion. Mel will have to decide for herself how she feels about the situation.
SHE
Posted by delano on August 29, 1997 at 20:40:12:
In Reply to: Re: she's trying to... posted by SheStalker on August 29, 1997 at 19:38:54:
of course... dan may not be a future serial killer. and i agree, that several people suffer from the same type of mental disorders that dan does(we all do to a certain degree.). so why is it suddenly a necessity for mel to step out of a friendship, when she has been attached to dan for so long(and dan to her)?
"Let's go on to suppose that Dan has every serial killer trait on the block and this must include a totally hatred of women(or other victim groups) and a desire to carry through the ultimate revenge and power trip, murder."
wait a minute..i can agree that serial killers all have a serious degree of mental instability, but i cannot agree with what you are saying here. there are so many carbon copy examples of frustration and curiosity being the initial motive of a murder. nilsen didn't kill his victims because he hated them with a passion, he killed them for company, to gain stability. chikatilo killed to cure impotence, and to also feel emotionally stable. gein killed out of extreme curiosity. hatred and revenge are not integral factors, unrestrained selfishness, and a need for stability are.
there are so many different kinds of motives for murder(including the ones you have mentioned, hatred and revenge), but every motive leads back to the object of the drive; to feel emotionally satisfied, and stable.
now, perhaps dan needs one more stressor to set him off, and mel leaves him. in terms of percentage, most killers are at first "triggered" by an unsettling event... for example, losing a job, or ending a serious relationship. mel leaving dan would be emotionally upsetting to dan, and in result, dan is feeling frustrated. he may not be able to take such a harsh rejection. course, whether he decides to kill, or abuse alcohol or drugs, or to just chill out is unknowable.
killers should not be stereotyped as monsters who practice sadism and are obviously evil and violent(some are, but not all). they are people with human feelings, and deal with the same kind of problems we deal with too.
don't get me wrong, i am not sympathizing with these people, i am understanding them.
what is it like to kill someone for the first time? depending on the mentality of the perpetrator(whether or not he has justified it in his mind), it can be one of two things. it can be satisfying, or it can be distressful. my guess is that for the majority of them, the first kill is immensely distressful. the victim is kicking and screaming, and you don't exactly know what you're doing; it's a spur of the moment thing, and the adrenaline is pumping hard, and your heart feels as if it's going to jump out of your chest, you see a car passing by, and there could be a chance of getting caught. you have to shut her up, or you're going to get in trouble, so you HIT her to sustain her...and as she lays on the ground almost lifelessly, you look at her, and realize what you've done...you have an urge to just let go and run away..but then you think of the consequences...she's seen you, she'll be able to identify you..so you decide that your well-being is more important than hers, and at this point, you have made your decision. you are going to end her life. but you've never had experience in killing before. you don't even know where to begin. all you attempted to do was to pick her up, you just wanted to get some before the weekend was over...and then it got ugly..and now here you are. you lay her down in a vast field, thinking of what to do next, and suddenly she starts to cough, and she returns to consciousness..you panic, jump on her and punch her, smashing her head to the ground, she kicks, and she screams, and you look around frantically to see if anyone is near by; you are safe for the moment, but she won't keep quiet, so you pressure your palm against her mouth, and to sedate her, you grab the nearest rock to you and smash it against her head, one, two three times. there is blood, and it gets onto your hands, and you stare at them, and the terror overwhelms you. you've just taken someone's life.
what i am trying to project..is that killing is in our nature. it lives in the unconscious, and comes out only when our unconscious is able to surpass the subconscious.
yes, mel does have to make the decision, but i wasn't the one who suggested that she should leave him.
del.
Posted by SheStalker on August 29, 1997 at 22:37:07:
In Reply to: Re: she's trying to... posted by delano on August 29, 1997 at 20:40:12:
: Okay, Del, here goes!
Is it Mel's responsiblity to stay in a relationship with Dan until HE deems it is safe for her to leave? That is blackmail (same as "if you leave, I will kill myself) and she is under no obligation to stay under those conditions. Is Mel responsible for Dan's well-being? Should she be his only avenue to restore his mental health. That is again a heavy burden to dump on someone. I only suggested Mel pay attention to her intuition. If she feels Dan is TOO dependent on her and if he is not shouldering his portion of the relationship and if she is feeling uncomfortable with the friendship, etc, then she has the right to end it, regardless of Dan's feelings in the matter.
Do serial killers have stressors before they kill? Sure they do. When they lose a girlfriend or a job, they may kill. But with their track record of dealing with the world unsuccessfully, it will happen sooner or later. Maybe two or three times a year. Therefore, it makes no sense to insist anyone continue in a relationship with a psychopath. Also, it behooves the psychopath to make sure someone else feels guilty and takes responsibility for HIS behavior.
Are serial killers human like the rest of us and do we all have some of the feelings of sexual psychopaths. Sure. But the degree is where the difference lies. Sometimes I can imagine slamming my kid against the wall, but never would I immerse one of them in a pot of boiling water. I might fantasize about sex with more than one person at the same time (oh, really?) but I have never taken on the football team in reality. That is where decency and concience step in. With serial killers, that part of humanity has long since gone missing. That is what makes them truly evil.
Why do serial killers kill? For curiosity? For companionship? Please. That is an old serial killer trick to make you think they aren't so bad. Maybe make the jury give a lighter sentence. Take a look at the picture in 'Practical Homicide Investigation', especially the picture of Dahmer's victims, gutted and ribs hanging out. Take a look at the pictures of the once-pretty women mutilated, disemboweled, tortured, brutalized and raped before and after death and tell me that isn't about hate and vengence. That is pure evil.
How do serial killers feel about the first murder. Damn good. That is why they go back for seconds. That is what makes them serial killers. Otherwise, the first time would kick in their concience and they would never do it again.
Well, that's my viewpoint, Del. Until our next conversation. Peace, SHE
Posted by delano on August 30, 1997 at 00:14:02:
i guess we have some disagreements.
about mel and dan...it isn't mel that is leaving the friendship actually..it's dan that has already left, and it's mel that is concerned. i'm not saying that she is responsible for his well-being, but it is a considered "courtesy," to be concerned for one's mental health. if she cares about him, then what's the problem in that? people need people to maintain their mental health. i'm only saying that it's better to be with someone then to be voluntarily exiled.
don't get me wrong here..i have no intention of feeling any remorse for serial killers(or for killers for that matter..). i do not sympathize with them, i do not feel for them, and in no way, would i ever defend their side. there is a process a killer goes through..adaptation. sensory adaptation. it's like dissecting animals for biology class. at first, it's overwhelming, but then, if it interests you in any way, it gets addictive. here you say:
"Sometimes I can imagine slamming my kid against the wall, but never would I immerse one of them in a pot of boiling water."
sure, and i should hope that you treat your kid well. there is a certain psychology behind everything. it's just like that simple animal psychology. if you have a dog, never give it table scraps because, once you start, he/she will never stop coming back for more. but it doesn't stop there. let's say you hit your kid one day(if it's easier, imagine someone else doing it), and you expect him(her, whatever) to behave afterwards..but he doesn't, so you hit him again, and it still doesn't work. your intention was at first to warn him, but at this point, he has refused to obey; so now, you have more courage, and more reason to go further with him. the process does not only get addictive, but it intensifies. certainly, i cannot imagine myself killing someone, and tearing at their flesh with my teeth like some animal(not during consciousness..)...but once a killer builds the confidence to go further, he will, and he will adapt to it. so, you slamming your kid against the wall may already sound unreasonable, and you boiling his head for dinner, is even more preposterous, only because you haven't been through the adaptation process. not like i'd ever want you to or anything... i'm glad you admitted to your sexual fantasies...identifying them is the first step to being able to restrain yourself from your unconscious. and i'm glad that you haven't attempted to take the football team...that is your subconscious speaking. your morality is so overpowering that it it has blocked out your entire unconscious behavior..which is excellent! there are so many people out there who lack the self-control that you possess...and perhaps your subconscious and morality refuses to allow you to believe that serial killers and the rest of them sinners are anywhere near the same type of species you are..and that's fine too. however, as a psychologist at heart, i have to look beyond that, passed my morality and into my unconscious, to see what i am capable of, to learn what others who lack self-control and morality are capable of. that's the only way to understand them. we can't just dismiss them for being evil and sadistic, and just be ignorant to the way they think. the fact is they are all very weakminded individuals who are ruled by their weaknesses, and fall to their desires due to their lack of self-restraint. as for compassion. obviously people that take the lives of others have lost all conception of that, but again, that takes its time to diminish from one's mind. that's why there is usually a longer period of time between the first kill and the second, because they, first and foremost, must be able to justify this in their minds, before being sure that it is all right to strike again. and when they do, the cycle continues, they grow more confident and bold, and the killing gets easier, and the compassion turns into selfishness.
": Why do serial killers kill? For curiosity? For companionship? Please. That is an old serial killer trick to make you think they aren't so bad."
oh..but it is true. if you choose to be so rigid about this topic, isolating yourself from them, i can understand. but how are you going to understand them? nilsen did kill for company. gein killed to satisfy his curiosity. do your research.
" Maybe make the jury give a lighter sentence."
i really hope you don't think i'm anywhere near wanting this. if you've been paying attention to any of my recent discussions i am pro capital punishment, and i am against all kinds of insanity, mainly because i don't believe in such a rediculous scheme.
"Take a look at the picture in 'Practical Homicide Investigation', especially the picture of Dahmer's victims, gutted and ribs hanging out. Take a look at the pictures of the once-pretty women mutilated, disemboweled, tortured, brutalized and raped before and after death and tell me that isn't about hate and vengence. That is pure evil."
i've seen dahmer's victims before. sure, it's no pretty sight. i wouldn't want to hang it on my wall. but i wasn't the one that was responsible for it. the artist understands his art more than anyone else. this goes for the killer too. there is a series of thoughts that goes through the killer's mind when he is disemboweling his victims, or eating them..etc. an artist can explain his thought behind every stroke of his painting, what he was thinking then, and why. the killer can do the same. now, there are the ones who brutilize , torture and kill out of pure power-seeking, i am recognizing them, but i'm not discussing them, since we both agree. about the ones who kill for reasons other than the sake of killing someone(for wrath, vengeance, etc..)..the ones who kill out of curiosity. gein only killed 3 people. the rest of the corpses that were found in his house were all exhumed bodies from the nearby gravesite. he was curious about the anatomy of women. after indulging in the corpses, gein's curiosity intensified, and he wondered what a live woman would be like, and so, having never been taught to restrain himself, having never practiced his compassion, he kidnapped an old woman from a nearby store, and killed her. pure curiosity. 100% unrestrained.
i am fine with the way you think, with your opinion. but as one who must understand in order to learn behavior, i am keeping my mind open, and by doing that, my perception is not limited.
all good things, del.
Posted by SheStalker on August 30, 1997 at 09:08:56:
Perhaps what you misunderstand about me is that I approach this topic with a little more cynicism than you.
For the last time, I would never encourage a person not to be a friend. I would, however, encourage someone to get out of an uncomfortable and possibly dangerous situation. Each person must decide for himself/herself if that situation is not healthy. That is why I suggested to Mel to read Gavin de Becker's book and to analyze her situation further.
About my 'sexual fantasies'. Joke, del, joke. I was trying to come up with an example for the sake of discussion. My sexual fantasies are not for public display!
And about the reasons for murder. I have done my research, thank you very much. I simply don't buy the stories of curiousity and lonliness. Now, don't misunderstand that these killers were NOT curious and lonely. Sure they might have been. But that was not the MOTIVE behind the murders. Just a footnote. The unquestionable reason behind murder is power. Any murder. Passion, assassination, serial killing. Just power in a different way.