I do have sympathy for the lost soul of the serial killer. Please understand this. The serial killer I have been trying to put away for seven years is someone I have come to understand all too well. I have met the family and heard the stories of his childhood. I know their hopes and dreams for him and I know of the times in his youth when he probably still could have been saved. I am profoundly sad at the events in his life and the unfortunate state of society that led him down this road. There are times when I see him and see the act he projects and I feel sorrow for the man he might have wished he could have been. Probably someone I would have liked had things not gone wrong. However, I also know that he is so far gone that nothing will bring him back. He is now the monster Ressler speaks of. I know his motives. I know exactly why he has killed; because he wants power, he wants to feed his ego and he will do it at the expense (totally) of other human beings. That these horribly traits came from an unfortunate background is academic now. Having met the families of the murder victims and seen the utter destruction he has cause and knowing full well he will never stop on his own, the death penalty is the only just solution. Every criminal was once a cute baby. Every mother grieves at the loss of the child she wishes had grown up to be a decent human. The families of these killers have my deepest sympathies as well as the families of the murder victims. They have a difficult time ahead.
I know we do not think differently about the penalty phase, Del, I think we feel differently about why they kill. I understand the continuum upon which we all stand. We all certainly have similar feelings of the serial killer. Desire for power and ego gratification is something we all share. However, to remain human, we have to respect other people have rights too. By the time the serial killer begins his vocation, he has left behind his desire to be a human being and be a member of society. Once that line is completely crossed, we are talking about a beast of another nature. When he is caught and tries to explain, the serial killer hands us what HE thinks is an explanation for his abnormal behavior that ordinary humans will accept and that will benefit himself. He is undoubtably to arrogant to really care to come down to our level for any other reason. That is why I am skeptical at their excuses and when I go back and 'research', the reason is always the same. "I wanted power and I took it." Like Bundy himself admitted, "I am the most cold-blooded son-of-a-bitch you will ever meet." Now, THAT was honest.
Posted by delano on August 30, 1997 at 13:21:46:
i feel that i have some clarifying to do.
if you(the viewer) have been keeping up with the continuous, mindnumbing conversation between shestalker and i, then i suggest you read this to reduce frustration.
allow me to clarify my view of the perpetrator's first kill with this enlightening sample of work written by forensic psychiatrist, robert simon, md:
"The lust murder of Larisa Tkachenko gave enormous impetus to Chikatilo in the acting out of his fantasies. For years, murderous, sadistic fantasies had grown in him, like a cancer in his mind, but he had not known precisely where they would lead. Now he did. When he had first killed little 9-year-old Yelena Zakatovna, he had been terribly shocked, vowing to never kill again. But this time, with Larisa, he felt almost nothing. Now he could kill other women without compunction."
as i was explaining, the first kill, if not always, is for the majority, a very overwhelming event, that springs out all kinds of emotions...: fear(is heightened, very intense), uncertainty, shock..etc. but the emotions that survive, that overcome the "first time" emotions, are the ones that lead these men to their following victims. sensory adaptation allows this. they get used to it. they lose compassion and all caring for their victims. that's why they are able to do so. perhaps you can call it "first kill virginity."
the other thing i feel obliged to explain is the difference between killers and non-killers(us, i hope.). simon explains the following:
"Given the horrible circumstances of many murders, the neophyte forensic psychiatrist's first interview with a murderer usually is an astonishing experience. For the murderer is not a blood-dripping monster but is usually a quiet, reasonably cooperative, guy-next-door type of human being who is uncomfortably like any other person—including the psychiatrist. The comparison between the guy-next-door and the blood-dripping monster becomes even more unnerving when one realizes that even good men's consciences are regularly roiled by murderous fantasies and dreams. As Theodore Reik, a pioneering psychoanalyst once succinctly put it, "If wishes were horses, they would pull the hearses of our dearest friends and nearest relatives. All men are murderers at heart." In the O. J. Simpson murder trial, testimony was given by a longtime friend that Simpson had dreamed of killing his wife. The prosecution strategy was to expose Simpson's state of mind (i.e., that he was fatally obsessed with his wife, Nicole). The law, however, punishes criminal acts, not antisocial thoughts. If murderous thoughts and dreams were a capital crime, we all would be on death row."
through and through this discussion, i've been trying to explain that the criminal mind is in all of us. the only difference between us and them is our ability to restrain our unconscious behaviors.
i end with another section of simon's well-written documentation:
"There is a bit of the sadist, the psychopath, the killer in all of us. The basic difference is that the character-driven destiny of bad men is to consciously do what good men are destined to unconsciously dream."
i recommend this article to anyone who is interested in understanding.
unhestitant, del.
Posted by link on August 30, 1997 at 13:28:53:
In Reply to: explanation. posted by delano on August 30, 1997 at 13:21:46:
Bad Men Do What Good Men Dream.
applause to mel who found the article.
del.
Dahmer, Dan, etc... responses to everyone since I missed things...
Posted by Mel on September 02, 1997 at 11:00:26:
SheStalker:
I am "still there" for Dan cuz I do feel sorry for him... I've always been a person who feels empathetic for lonely guys and always want to help them out... I feel that he really needs people to be there for him but now since he's shutting himself away from everyone it won't be so easy anymore... I do not spend as much time with him anymore actually I don't see him at all really... I've only seen him once in like couple of months (to get that package from Ted...) I will check out that book "Nasty Men" because I really do need to be aware of it... When you say he could become a stalker with me as a target, will I be the only one he'll stalk? or will he stalk other Mel look alikes as well??
Del>
You are correct in your analyzation.... he is not a serial killer yet and it is true I am trying to avoid him from becoming one... that is the reason I put this up...
SheStalker>
Yes there are two different sides to what could happen, we don't know which one will happen but to be aware of what could happen I am open to all possibilities and suggestions... I guess I tend to be a bit too openminded... I understand about the being "away" from him from a long time scenario, but it isn't me who made that choice now he wants everyone away from himself does this mean he could come up with plans of at least stalking? maybe I did go a bit far about him becoming a serial killer-just trying to avoid both stalking and killing from him... As for JACA ... J-I am not sure about actually him wanting to inflict pain on someone for justifying purposes but it could mean that he might want to hurt me... I don't know what goes on in his mind at this point that is one reason I am very aware of the situation very cautious as well... A-alternatives: he has other friends but has (in my observations and opinion) depended on me for all the advice he needed to get such as dating, problems etc..., as for C-consequences Dan doesn't care about dying (don't know about prison...) He has attempted suicide three times in one day over me... and A-ability to carry out threat... hmm.. he doesn't have a gun as far as I know but he could get one?? (I said COULD...)
I know it is totally up to me to know what to do... it may seem I rely on you people who are responding about him a lot but I am trying to make my own decisions as well based on own observations and your help as well :) (SHE, DEL, etc.)
DEL>
Yes I know what you mean about emotionally stable, isn't it true Dan may want to gain more stability? he is deprived of so many things he might go too far without recognizing it till later?
yes stressors... I thought maybe my breaking up with him was an enormous change in his life, because he was the most obsessed person over me my first boyfriend actually... And as for you saying that it is unpredictable to know... again I say that is why I am aware.
I agree with you about killers being normal people... but I believe they are "different" in a way they are evil and strange, but are still human...
you reminded me of something... this is a good question I'd like everyone to read and answer if they can:
From what I hear, reporters when scrambling to the courtroom to get a closeup of Dahmer (or actually a serial killer) they expected a "monster" but were shocked to see that he looked like a normal guy... the typical neighbour in fact! The same goes for other serial killers... Cunanan doesn't look like a monster, neither does Bundy or DeSalvo... What exactly is a "MONSTER" in human form? What exactly is this MONSTER people expectED (emphasizing the ED to show the past) out of a serial killer? a man with bloody fangs like a vampire? cold blooded eyes that kill in a second? I think people underestimated when talking about serial killers being monsters... This was a curious question I've been thinking about for a long time about serial killers... no serial killer exactly looks like a monster... not even Hannibal Lecter who isn't real looks like a monster he looks charming however you could see a bit of evil in him even though that wouldn't exactly make him a monster...
As for what Del has said that killing is in our nature, I believe that too I think some of us just don't admit it... how many times have I or you said I wanna kill my brother? the only difference is we never do it because we have the morals and we stick with them :)
SheStalker>
Well there's been times where I actually went to him for advice but most of the time it's him asking me! are you saying if Dan kills that he will blame it on me? Not all serial killers actually blamed someone for their killings, Dahmer declined to shift the blame to his family, he said he takes responsibility for himself... Your responses are truly impressive, SheStalker, I will keep them in mind :) But as for killers killing for companionship I believe some do. It depends on the degree of how much they really want to have that endless companion... but I also believe there has to be a lot of other factors too ...
I broke up with Dan. It was because of many factors the story is too long but yes his insecurity and instability were some factors. Also he was very possessive and often took over my privacy because there were times that I wanted to do things of my own... Well I didn't exactly say that Dan may be a serial killing in the making, I guess it's just my open mind which says HE MIGHT become one... I believe what SHESTALKER says about him most likely becoming a stalker, but I want to be able to prevent further problems (killing) I am still wondering what to do... but for sure if I hear of murders in Ottawa (likely he'll kill here IF he becomes a serial killer he'd be disorganized) or even a rapist\stalker whatever he becomes, I will contact someone.
DEL>
Yes I am concerned about Dan's well being. thanx for getting that across.
And YES DAN IS LEAVING THE FRIENDSHIP!
I don't think it is bad to have violent fantasies as long as you don't play them out... lots of times I say Oh I wanna skin his hide or I wanna punch my brother till he gets black and blue but I have the morals to not do so... in my opinion inflicting pain does not give me anything at all... as for serial killers it does... it gives a lot of things for them... well..I have fantasized some really violent things too... but for one, it's for preparation for the horrors I may come across while investigating dead bodies and profiling, and two, it is fun to fantasize BUT I swear I won't ever harm a human being.... (don't think badly of me cuz I say it is fun to fantasize... lots of people say that...) I respect SheStalker's opinion, but I still believe what you have said about killing for company... Dennis Nilsen shows a lot of that... I don't idolize any serial killers but I am fascinated by them just like I am fascinated by all kinds of mysteries... I hear that when serial killers have their victims in capture and do normal things they have the fantasies stuck in them forever (therefore they justify it.) Killers, unlike us, have the fantasies with them longer than we normal people ever do...
I am just curious about something... is necrophilia a disease?
Well Del and SheStalker, very interesting conversation, I would have participated if I was able to come, here I am to catch up.... this conversation broadens many topics and has caught my interests... well.... I respect both SheStalker's and Del's opinions and will keep them in mind... Thank you all... hope we can have some more interesting conversations like this one :) Sometimes we need debates don't we? if we all agreed the world would be boring... so thanks for spicing it up the two of you, Del, and SheStalker.
Yours Truly, Mel
A response to your fine responses.
Posted by SheStalker on September 02, 1997 at 18:36:08:
In Reply to: Dahmer, Dan, etc... responses to everyone since I missed things... posted by Mel on September 02, 1997 at 11:00:26:
Mel>
You have, as Del pointed out really put a lot of thinking
into your message. And yes, Del and I had a great debate.
Let's see, now. Will Dan become a stalker? No one can predict that. Many people draw everyday of their lives and never become artists. But if one drew everyday of his life plus had a mentor encouraging him plus he got a scholorship to a good art school plus he didn't get married too soon and have to run out and support a family plus no one told him early on that his artwork was horrid plus etc., etc., etc. There lies the problems with predicting. So many factors must come together in the right way and preclude all the alternatives. That is why it would be hard to say if Dan could become a serial killer or a stalker rather than an alcoholic or a suicide or a bouncer in a strip joint. Or maybe a fine author after his years of strife. Or maybe he will have a religious conversion and straighten out his life entirely or join a Jim Jones cult. No one knows. Can anyone predict what YOU will do in the next few years?
However, one thing you can predict. If you see an escalation of certain behaviors, then you may well know down which road he is traveling in the immediate future. For example, most of the time people hint before they commit suicide. Just because a person has a rotten life and is depressed would not predict suicide. But if that person started making comments like "Life is hopeless" and "what's the point in going on", and if that person starts giving away belongings and telling you that you WERE a really good friend and if that person has the ability to commit suicide(access to guns or knives or medicines, etc) then you can guess he might well commit suicide. This is the time to act and notify someone who can help this person and to encourage the person to call a suicide hotline.
Right now Dan does not seem to have all the JACA factors which could push him into stalking you. For that matter, he has not even said anything negative (right?) to that effect concerning you. So he is probably just a troubled young man. However, that could change. Suppose he starts saying "If I can't have you, no one can" or "I would rather be dead and take you with me"! Suppose he says life is a total bummer and he is fed up (he has threatened suicide) and he starts showing signs of planning suicide, and suppose he buys a gun or a knife or talks about driving off a cliff (then a car is the weapon). Now you have evidence of escalation. Now, if he doesn't include you in his plans (J-justification- he sees no reason to be mad at you or want you to join him in death) then he would have no reason to stalk you. He might kill himself, yes. But you would not be involved. Another sign of escaltion, but slower, is if he forces a stronger friendship on you than you want and won't stop. That wou indicate he is becoming more desperate and dependent on you. All the above signs come in varying degrees and in varying styles. You, yourself, are the best person to decide if you feel threatened or not. If you see no escalation and he is not causing you any feeling of uncomfortableness or alarm, then a friendship is certainly possible. Pay attention to your own feelings. Those are your defenses against trouble. Read the book "Nasty Men" to see if you are TOO nice! (And he knows it). If you are realistically viewing the relationship, then you will naturally make better choices.
Are you responsible for Dan's behavior? Hardly. Can he blame you? Well, sure he can. Along with his parents, society, the third-grade teacher and the bully next door! While it is possible that some blame may indeed lie with these people, each one alone would not be entirely to blame for his emotional make-up. And he certainly has his own accountability too. As a society, we certainly can place a portion of the blame on ourselves for creating detrimental situations for people to live and learn in. Pornography, violence, bad school, lousy marriages, non-marriages, decline of moral values, transiency, TV, and so one all can create bad atmospheres for human beings to develop in a positive way and support bad behaviors. Dan may have fallen prey to many of them in his lifetime and that is why it is so difficult to help someone turn around at his age. Certainly difficult for one nice person to make that big a difference. He would need the concerted team efforts of possibly psychologists, family, job opportunities, religion and whatever to combat two decades of problems.
SHE