Recently I was disturbed to receive the following in my English Atheist email. It is from a young American high school student. I am wondering what on Earth is being taught in American schools. If any American Christians should read this page I suggest you add a new section to your meter of shame, label it "ultra", and knock the pointer over fully clockwise. This page is titled 'Lying for Jesus' because of what my correspondent (below) published on her website concerning this writer. The URL is below should you care to see what this featured American Christian is capable of - it's not much, but she is prepared to deliberately create falsehoods, and publish them, to bolster her beliefs. Here goes:
hello. i was just at your dancing beaver sight, and it is a bunch of trash!
just because you don't believe in no God it dontgives you NO RIGHTS to try to push your
beliefs onto other people.enjoy rotting in hell.
A Devoted ChristianTo which I replied:
Dear Laura,
Thank you for visiting my "Hubert the Dancing Beaver Deity" web page.
Yours is the first email that I have received from someone claiming to be a Christian who has not found my Dancing Beaver page to be even mildly amusing. You state that, "it is a bunch of trash!" but fail to cite any specifics which would enable me to improve the page.
You are quite right in stating that I do not believe in God. In fact I do not believe in any gods. But as far as I know I do have the right to publish a page of bouncing beavers on the WWW. Why did you write that I do not? I am sure that you know I live in England, and I do have the inalienable right as a subject of the Crown to say whatever I want about anything I want provided it does not break the law. I am assuming that you reside somewhere in the US, is that not the case over there? I feel that you are most mistaken if you think that I have tried to push my beliefs on to other people. How can I? Do you not understand that I have no belief in the supernatural? Do you not understand that it is a matter of personal choice if you wish to visit my web pages? Cannot the Christian sect that you belong to tolerate a few dancing beavers? If not, why not? Why can you not tolerate a stranger's lack of belief? Where exactly does the threat I represent to you reside? Are you sure you know what Atheism is?
As a Christian I am sure that you already know there is but one unforgivable sin. Where on "The English Atheist" have I done that? I'll tell you - nowhere. So why are you really concerned about my amateur web pages? I would welcome your answers to my questions. (I didn't get any though. Why was I not surprised?)
I see that you have written "enjoy rotting in hell". Which is a typically Christian comment and definitely not unexpected. It only goes to bolster my conviction that Christianity and it's followers, from the roots of it's conception to the present day are vindictive, confrontational, intolerant, prejudicial, and sadistic.
Finally, you describe yourself as a "Devoted Christian". Which is a little ambiguous, because I have to assume what you are devoted to. I think the phrase you probably meant to write was, "devout Christian". Nevertheless, I find no evidence in your email that you are devout or even of what you would probably purport to be a Christian.
I was going to finish at this point, but by chance I noticed this in "The English Atheist's Guestbook"...
From http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby/geobook.html <!-- REMOTE ADDR:
207.90.121.101 --> 11/22/00 21:13:14<BR>
"you make me sick. this site is so pathetic. Your fucked
up beaver god would be SO PROUD of you! Get A HOBBY. Why dont you make a
page on fucked up atheists too? Just because you dont believe in the real
God gives you no right to make fun of him OR try to push your beliefs onto others.
Your bible stickers and such are just pathetic. You dont see christians or any
other people of other religions making pages to put down atheists."
...hey! an entry made by someone called 'Betsy', within a few minutes of your email. And from exactly the same IP address! What a coincidence, or is it your God working in a mysterious way? Surely it could not have been made by you, otherwise you would have been lying about your name!
Despite your false assertion that I have tried to push my beliefs (or more correctly lack of beliefs) on to you, you have now demonstrably proved that you browsed "The English Atheist" of your own free will. You disproved your case all by yourself.
I will further address only two points that you brought up in my guestbook. Also, I will leave your entry in there, for obvious reasons.
Anyways, my Bible stickers. I will admit that the seventh sticker is purely subjective, but where did you find anything whatsoever that is not undeniably factual in the other six? I would really like to know. Could it be that you are a Christian who has not read, and understood, your own Bible, has no knowledge of history - in particular the history of your own religion? The apparent ignorance in your email and guestbook post certainly seem to suggest that.
You are demonstrably wrong when you assert that, "You dont see christians or any other people of other religions making pages to put down atheists." Unlike you, I have taken the time to browse the web for evidence of this. You may care to check out Robert T. Lee's website for irrefutable proof. Funnily, I suspect that you will deny this proof, and probably not email me back to admit that you have been quite wrong. And I bet that you won't bother to apologize for your false assertion with an entry in my guestbook will you?
Are you familiar with Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians? If so, I suggest that you read it again and start to practice what, as a Christian, you are taught to preach.
If you would care to uplift your intellect and email me back with a reasoned, mature criticism of "The English Atheist", I would be more than happy to oblige with a reply on a reciprocal level.
Martin J Burn
* Martin James Burn - The English Atheist
*
* http://www.english-atheist.co.uk
*
* "The meek shall inherit the Earth.
* They are too weak to refuse."The next email arrived:
> listen, i dont care to listen to all of your bs,
Dear Laura,
Of course you don't, metaphorically waving your arms around and shouting "I can't hear you, I cant hear you!" is a well known, often used Christian debating tactic. You say it's "bs", but your hollow assertion means very little. Argument from ignorance, your stance, is another well known Christian tactic. It does not fool me.
i just want you to know
> that its really sad that you had to make a freaking webpage about yo
lack
> of the beliefs.
But why is it sad? Please explain. Oh, I get it, it's sad in your opinion. I would truly welcome your explanation as to why I found the construction of my website such a freeing, liberating experience - the exact opposite of what you wrongly assert.
Creating the dancing beaver page (now with a duet of Bouncing Beaver Bishops ®) made me particularly happy! In fact, during it's construction I had tears of laughter streaming down my face. One correspondent has told me that he was so overtaken by paroxysms of laughter when he saw the page he fell off his chair!
>if you choose to be an athiest, then its your own choice, but
> yyou have no right to make a page that basically makes fun of them that who DO
> believe in God.
Of course I have the right to ridicule what I consider to be ridiculous. It is called freedom of speech. In your country the right of free speech is specifically postulated in your very own Constitution. Ah look - there it is, it's part of the first amendment. Do you deny the freedom of speech?
I mean, you dont see no christians making sites that make fun
> of you and/or your thoughts and feelings.
Yes there are. As I pointed out in my last email. Why did you write this?
>dou you want reasons for belief?
There are many reasons for belief. None of them convince me.
> go here: http://www.ccci.org/whoisjesus/reasons.html
OK...
...I am not convinced. But please ask me any question you like about the page you want, as I now have a clearer view of where you are coming from.
> you know, you should be ashamed of yourself. I mean, its pretty sad when a
> 14 year old high school studant is lecturing YOU about your stupid
actions.
You may think that you are lecturing me, but that does not mean you are lecturing me from a position of authority or superior knowledge. I must assume that you are ignorant of the meaning of the word stupid.
> before you reply, read 1st John 4:7,8. I mean, what did God ever done to
you
> to make you not want to believe in him?
Please understand that I consider the concept of a universe-sized, omnipotent, omniscient space-alien that delights in the aroma of toasted goat to be quite ridiculous. Therefore, the figment of your imagination you call God cannot do anything to me. I see that you refer to your imaginary God using the male gender, and you know what that means don't you? Yes, sexual reproduction. Are you trying to tell me that there is a companion female god, a Mrs. God as well? If not, and were you to actually think about it, you should more properly address your super-space-alien as "it".
>Let me guess, he give you life.
No, my parents gave me life. As your parents did for you. Sexual reproduction is not an unexplainable paranormal phenomenon, it is a well understood biological process. What you are describing is the incorrect stone-age/bronze-age explanation of human reproduction, not the correct 21st century explanation.
oh
> yeah, now THATS a reason to not believe.
Come on. Have you even read the
> Bile?
Of course I have. Both as a child, and as an adult. Why do you ask?
I would hope so because you have no right to not to believe until you
> have.
Have you read the Koran? If not, then by your own admission, you have no right not to believe in the one, true, Islamic God - Allah (PBUH) and his prophet Mohammed. Do you believe that Allah (PBUH) is the one, true God? No, I thought not. Do you believe that Mohammed is the one, true prophet of Allah (PBUH)? No? Boy, we're both going to have a great time when we get to the pearly gates aren't we? Especially if it turns out to be the Muslim heaven. Because we will both be turned round and sent to Muslim hell won't we? Ouch. But thinking about it, I might be better off than you in Muslim Hell - at least I didn't believe in and worship the wrong God and take any notice of false prophets.
Let me give you some advice, your life would be SO much better if
you
> just let God into it.
OK, I'll bite. How? Why?
> Whether you like it or not, GOD still love you. But its not me you will
> have to answer to in the end, its to God.
Yes, but which one? How can your god love me AND condemn me to eternal torture?
> God Bless,
> Laura
>
> P.S. your bible stickers is wrong.
No they are not. Why do insist on this incorrect argument?(Also, notice that again she presumes to give me her imaginary god's blessing, whilst in her first email she assumes her imaginary god is condemning me to hell! And Christians wonder why I consider them to be mentally ill.)
next time you should check the sauce.
> before claiming that it says something specific.
Yes my source is the Bible. Please point out where I have got anything wrong - whatsoever - on any of the first six labels and I will happily correct them.
> P.P.S. Your site & email really made my mom p.o.
But your entry in my guestbook didn't? Please ask your mother to read your entry in my guestbook. Here it is in full:
"you make me so sick. this site is so pathetic. Your fucked up beaver god would
be SO PROUD of you! Get A HOBBY. Why dont you make a page on fucked up
atheists too? Just because you dont believe in the real God gives you no
right to make fun of him OR try to push your beliefs onto others. Your bible
stickers and such are just pathetic. You dont see christians or any other
people of other religions making pages to put down atheists. GROW UP!"
> p.p.p.s. this is what i think of your site http://expage.com/ilovegodmta
It's a good start. Thank you for the publicity! The more the merrier. I am not aware of who the person in black with the head mounted microphone is though. (The picture has since gone.{14-Dec-2000, it's back!}) I am disappointed that you did not put the URL of "The English Atheist" on your page, or even include a jolly tune. I may post a link from my page to yours, because as you know, I am eager to point out to visitors of "The English Atheist" just exactly how honest, intelligent and benevolent the typical Christian is. Also, I am keen to show my visitors how eager Christians are to break their God given commandments in the promotion of their cause, particularly the one about bearing false witness, you know, the one between stealing and coveting. Oh, BTW, did you not know that "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."? - Proverbs 12:22.
The picture of Jesus on your page is quite wrong. You must be aware that had he existed Jesus would have been a Jew. As such he would have conformed to the Jewish law specifying the hair style he would have to adhere to. He would have had short hair and a long beard. Check it out, it's in the Bible.
i
> know it not very christian, but it the truth.
Of course it is Laura. Of course it is.
Now, how about answering the questions from my previous email and this one?
Regards
Martin J Burn
* Martin James Burn - The English Atheist
*
* http://www.english-atheist.co.uk
*
* "The church lives on the fact that
* modern research about Jesus is
* not known amongst the public."
* - Hans Konzelmann(The next day I received an email from an Atheist high school student (again an American) congratulating me on my dancing beaver page . It had perfect spelling, grammar and punctuation. Now there's a surprise. Not.)
The next 'reply' arrived:
first of all, act like you have a braincell in your head. You know very well
what God i am talking about. I refer to God as a 'he' because the Bible
does. im not going to give you experiences of how God has made my life
better because you will just tell me that God had nothing to do with any of
it. where is your proof that there aint no God? if you want to make a site
about your lack of beliefs, thats your choice, but you should have done some
common courtesy and respect people that do believe in God. And so people
make fun of athiests on their webpages, why dont you for once be the better
person and let it go without making fun of beievers on your page. Yes God
did give you life. your parents may have created YOU, but God created your
soul. Where is your proof that God DOESNT exist? my proof of his existance
is the Bible, among other things. and Yes your stickers are wrong. My mom
even did some searching and told me so herself, and believe me, you dont
wanna mess with my good Christian Mom. and have you ever read the last page
of the bible? it basically says WE (the believers) WIN so whatever you
choose to do with your life, if you dont go let God into your life, then you
are going to regret it in the end.
LauraMy Reply:
Dear Laura,
Thank you for your email. Hi there FlirtyGurl01. (FlirtyGurl01 was CC'd in Laura's email.)
Firstly, Laura, who are you really? Are your emails a wind-up, a hoax, a josh from a fellow unbeliever? If so, although it is no mystery why you made the entry in my guest book, I fail to see why it had to be quite so acidic. Also, I can see perfectly well the fallacious nature of your arguments in your emails. I have heard them all before, the argumentum ad hominem, the strawman, argumentum ad ignorantiam, argumentum ad verecundiam, well the list is longer but I won't go on. However, I will reply to your email as though you are exactly who you claim to be - even though up to this moment you have failed to address the vast majority of my points and questions - it is excellent practice in honing my personal arguments in favour of non-belief. In effect you are helping to make me a better opponent of unsubstantiated belief. Oh how I love irony!*
>first of all, act like you have a braincell in your head.
This is an invalid personal attack. As a Christian you should be quite ashamed of yourself. Why? Because you are not following what you have been taught in the Bible. I am sure that as a Christian you know exactly which passages I refer to, but if you have any problem remembering which ones I will gladly point them out for you. Please repent, pray for forgiveness and apologize to me.
>You know very well what God i am talking about.
Yes I do. The God of the Christian Bible. But you have not explained how your belief in the God of the Bible invalidates a Muslim's belief in the God Allah (PBUH) of the Koran, or my friends belief in Hubert, the One, True, Dancing Beaver Deity for that matter. And until the time that you do I have to remain wondering which God is the real God, that is if any God exists in reality. Just because you assert something, it does not automatically become the truth. What if you asserted there were fairies at the bottom of your garden, or the tooth fairy exists, or that Santa delivers gifts every Christmas, or that zombies, unicorns, satyrs, dragons, magical fruit and talking donkeys have existed? You assert the Christian God, but I cannot see that it exists anywhere other than in your mind. You have shown me nothing, zero, zilch. You talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk.
>I refer to God as a 'he' because the Bible does.
Yes, I know the passage that you are referring to, Deuteronomy 03:22, it specifically states that God, the one you believe in, is a "he". But you have ignored the point that I was making - if something exists and is male then there must be a female component somewhere. In this case a Mrs. God. Otherwise there is no need for gender. If something is asexual it is referred to as an "it". Do you have any thoughts as to why the person who wrote that passage in Deuteronomy considered his God to be a male God?
>im not going to give you experiences of how God has made my life
better...
You can if you want - I cannot argue that you believe in something. But since I did not ask in the first place I am wondering why you wrote this.
>...because you will just tell me that God had nothing to do with any of it.
And explain why - using reasoned arguments, facts and an adult mind - you forgot that bit.
>where is your proof that there aint no God?
I do not have to provide a proof. I am making no claim of the supernatural, therefore it is not up to me to provide proof of anything I am not asserting. If it were, I could be asked to provide proof of the non-existence of anything you care to dream up. How would you provide proof of the non-existence of Allah (PBUH), Invisible Pink Unicorns, or even Hubert the Amazing Dancing Beaver Deity?
If you think that the previous paragraph is nonsense, and if you only answer a few points and questions I pose in this email, please consider the following and have a go at them:
Dear Laura,
I have seen the emails that you and the English man have been sending each
other. You are both wrong. You think that the Christian God is the real God
but it (or should I say he?) is not. Please provide proof that the only real
God, Brahman, does not exist and that reincarnation does not happen. Why do
you not believe in what is written in the Rig Veda, my Holy Scripture? Don't
you know that it is the oldest religious scripture in the World?
If you had been born in the same country and town as me, you would have the same
religion as me and believe in the same Gods as me. Also, many more millions
of people practice my religion than there are people in the branch of
Christianity you belong to, which must mean that your religion is the wrong
one. Why do you insist on practicing the wrong religion? Why do you worship
the false Christian God?
The dancing beavers ARE funny.
Krishna loves you.
A Hindu
>if you want to make a site
about your lack of beliefs, thats your choice, but you should have done some
common courtesy and respect people that do believe in God.
A choice, but still not a right? Please see my previous emails for my replies on this. Your entry in my guestbook shows no evidence of common courtesy or respect for MY non-belief. Nearly two thousand years of Christian history prove that Christianity itself, and it's leaders and followers have had no respect for anything other than it's own doctrine, self-serving dogma and ridiculous beliefs. Do you deny the history of your religion as well? Why should anyone respect something that does not deserve respect? Respect has to be earned. If suppression of knowledge and learning, blood-soaked crusades, centuries of inquisitional torture, witch burning, slavery and misogyny are worthy of respect - then I will eat my hat. Christianity does not occupy the high moral ground. It never has and never will. It wouldn't even if everyone on the planet were to forget everything concerning Christianity prior to this point in time. Why? Because you would still have the Bible. Try reading it. Really reading it. All of it. There are passages in it, the ones you have not read or been told about, that make even this adult blanche. Respect? I think not.
>And so people
make fun of athiests on their webpages, why dont you for once be the better
person and let it go without making fun of beievers on your page.
Ah, did you take a look at Robert T. Lee's website? Educational isn't it? Unlike you (and probably him), I would campaign for his right to publish whatever he wants (provided it did not break the law) on the WWW. I have no desire to be a better person than anyone else. I am not. Essentially I am making fun of the belief, not the believer, on my website. I understand that you may have deep-held beliefs and find some of the material on my website offensive, but I will not change anything that is factual, or desist from ridiculing that which I consider to be ridiculous. It is my right. But if you think that I have unreasonably attacked someone or something, I will definitely consider what you have to say. And if your argument is reasoned, honest, factual and convincing I will remove or alter the material you consider should not be there accordingly. Can you show me that you are up to the task? I wonder.
>Yes God did give you life. your parents may have created YOU,There's no "may" about it, they did. Can you not see that?
>but God
created your soul.
OK, you have me here. What is a soul? Please describe it, how it was made, how it works, where it is, how big it is, how it interacts with the physical world, it's function and what was it doing prior to by conception. No answers? How unusual.
>Where is your proof that God DEOSNT exist?
Please see above.
>my proof of his existance
is the Bible, among other things. and Yes your stickers are wrong.
Therefore, the Koran is proof of the Muslim God Allah (PBUH). Again, I will change my stickers if you can point out where they are wrong. If you can't, they stay.
>My mom even did some searching and told me so herself, and believe me, you
dont wanna mess with my good Christian Mom.
So why didn't you tell me where I have been incorrect on the stickers page? Talk about missing the boat. Perhaps your mom would like to email me and tell me herself. I can take it. Please print the following and give it to your mom:
Dear Laura's Mom,
Hi, how are you? Laura told me that you found something that was not factual
on my 'stickers' web page. But in her last email she forgot to tell me what
you found. Therefore I cannot change it. I would be more than happy to
change the page if you point out the errors.
Thank you.
Martin J Burn - Cambridge, England.
>and have you ever read the last page of the bible?
I have. Why do you ask? I have already told you as much.
>it basically says WE (the believers) WIN so whatever you
choose to do with your life, if you dont let God into your life, then you
are going to regret it in the end.
It also specifically states in Revelation, on the last page no less:
22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers,
and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
So, if you follow the God given commandments (all 613 of them - check 'em out), you get to go to heaven when you die, which is super - if you believe it. But not if you are a dog, David Copperfield, Penn, Teller, a pimp, a murderer, a Catholic, or a Christian who deliberately lies, because they get to suffer for all eternity in hell. Ouch! - if you believe it. Are you saying that unless you remove the deliberate lies from your tribute website to me, you are going to hell as well? See you there Laura! And maybe FlirtyGurl01, if she would also care to make a website about me with a few lies on it as well!(BTW I am aware of the real intention/meaning/symbolism in the passage above.)
I look forward to your reply, but am not too hopeful of it's content.
Later
Martin J Burn
* Please visit http://www.oocities.org/missus_gumby/irony.htm for a
complete explanation of irony. Thank you. (Go on folks - give it a click!) :-)Laura's next reply:
I AM a 14 year old high school student and christian who has been severely
p.o. by your words and actions. And if you are wondering why my entry in
your guestbook was so 'acidec' well why are you behaving so rediculously?
and i know i've said some pretty rude things, but what right do you have to
lecture me on that subject? and you must be off your rocker to ORDER me to
pray (how ironic, huh? i bet you're really loving this) and EXPECT me to
APOLOGISE to YOU of all people! how dare you expect me to have the Bible
memorized? thats not required to be a Christian. You can call me anything
you want, but i will be the better, more mature (oh my goodness! more irony!
how about that?) person. And why is it that YOU try to preach the BIBLE to
ME?? (my my, more irony!) Cum On! And I AM NOT hear to debate the
difference between GOD and another cuntry's god, so it were just stupid to
bring that up. You havent been answering my questions, so why should i
answer yours? i am doing the best that i can, remember that im only 14. And
if you want to believe in your little beaver, then knock yourself out, but
what are you gonna have there for you when you die? Would you quit lying
about not making fun of Christians, but making fun of the belief? I seen
your page, and God didtn create my yesterday. Ive see the things you have up
making fun of christians for what they are quoted on. Get a new hobby!
Until you 'walk the walk and talk the talks' then dont you tell me what a bad
job i am doing, because so far its a heck of a lot better than what you are
doing! i would expect so much more from an adult. Where do you think the
Bible comes from? i doubt that many people would work together to create a
work of fiction and then worship it. Proof of the Bible being non-fiction is
Noah's Ark, which HAS been found. I've seen countless news broadcasts and
shows about the discovery. Just because i dont quote the Bible left and
right, unlike you (wow, more irony!) doesnt mean im not a Christian so you
have no need to rub that in my face. I believe that since you know the Bible
so well, Satan has a hold on you, because Satan knows the Bible better than
anybody. i've said enough.
Laura
p.s. theres no need to bring other people who have nothing to do with this
into the conversation.Dear Laura.
Thank you for your email. I read it with great interest. And, without exception, I will address the points you make and answer your questions - in order. As per normal.
> I AM a 14 year old high school student and christian who have been severely
> p.o. by your word and actions.
OK. I understand.
>And if you are wondering why my entry in your guestbook was so 'acidec'
well why are you behaving so rediculously? and i know i've said some pretty
rude things, but what right do you have to lecture me on that subject?
Thank you for admitting you did, in fact, make the entry in my guestbook, because up to now I was only guessing. It wasn't your God working in a mysterious way or a hoaxer after all! The entry will remain as proof that you are prepared to lie to promote Christianity.
I feel you have not understood the point I was making in my last email. I was considering that the entry in my guestbook (and your email) was a crude hoax and somewhat 'over the top' which did not need the colourful expletives or derogatory tone - in other words: why, if it turned out that you were an Atheist hoaxer, did you put the supposed Christian postee in such a bad light? But since I went on to say that I would consider your correspondence (and entry in my guestbook) as genuine, the point is moot. How does a question regarding the nature of my behaviour, ridiculous or otherwise, follow from my incredulity? Do you know what a 'non sequitur' is? Also, asserting that I am behaving ridiculously does not make it so. What if I were to ask you if you had stopped kicking the cat? (Or dog, raccoon, badger, gerbil, hamster, wombat, chipmunk, beaver etc?)
I do not know that I have the right to lecture you on anything, including your use of colourful language. Why did you write this? I am the English guy who is replying to your emails.
>and you must be off your rocker to ORDER me to pray (how ironic, huh? i bet
you're really loving this) and EXPECT me to APOLOGISE to YOU of all people!
Another personal attack. If you can point out where I order you to do anything I will happily apologise. No problem. It appears that when you read my emails you see what you want to see, not what is written on the screen. It would be really pleasing if you could address what I have written, not your own interpretation. Let me quote from your previous email...
"first of all, act like you have a braincell in your head"
...as I wrote before, this is an invalid personal attack. As is the blatant assertion above concerning the state of my sanity. Please apologize. (Heck, you don't have to mean it, I won't know if you don't!) However, it is phrases like that (and others from your previous emails and guestbook post which I will list if you require it) that lead me to think that you do consider yourself to be a better person than me. And better than me because you are a Christian. History proves that Christianity and it's followers can claim very little to be proud of. Or provide any reason to claim superiority above any other faith or followers of those faiths.
>how dare you expect me to have the Bible
memorized?
Where have I written that?
>thats not required to be a Christian.
Your point being? I have not asserted that it was.
>You can call me anything you want,
Where have I called you anything?
>but i will be the better, more mature (oh my goodness! more
irony! how about that?) person.
I never claimed to be a better person than anyone, I am not. I have not claimed to be a more mature person. Why did you write this? Where is the irony?
>And why is it that YOU try to preech the BIBLE to ME?? (my my, more irony!)
Cum On!
I was addressing the point you made about the last page of Revelation. How can that be preaching? You cannot have it both ways.
>And I AM NOT here to debate the difference between GOD and another
cuntry's god, so it were just stupid to bring that up.
So you are saying that there are multiple gods? Despite what your Ten Commandments teach you?
>You havnt been answering my questions, so why should i
answer yours.
Please point out a question that I have not answered and I will answer it. I cannot be fairer than that.
I think the point you are making here is that I am not answering your questions in the way that you want them to be answered. With the answers that you want to read. You may care to answer my questions for the following reasons:
It would be polite to do so.
You are instructed to do so in the Bible.
Christians are meant to be good, honest people and willfully ignoring them is not really good or honest.
>i am doing the best that i can, remember that im only 14.
And it is appreciated. Keep trying, we may even agree on something sooner or later.
>And if you want to believe in your little beaver, then knock yourself out,
but what are you gonna have you there for you when you die?
Again, I have no belief in the supernatural. Not even in Hubert the Dancing Beaver Deity. :-)
I have been close to dying twice in my life. I made no appeal to your (or anyone else's) God on either occasion. But when it does happen and immediately prior to my demise I am hoping to make a profound statement to the effect that no gods exist. Or something like that. I am not looking forward to the moment and I hope that it is a long time away. In my opinion, after I die it will feel the same as before I was born. It should be quite nice really, exactly like the period when you are asleep but before you start to dream. I have no fear of death itself, just the process immediately prior to the moment.
>Would you quit lying about not making fun of Christians, but making fun of
the belief?
Again, I will invite you to point out specific instances. As I put it last time, "if you think that I have unreasonably attacked someone or something, I will definitely consider what you have to say. And if your argument is reasoned, honest, factual and convincing I will remove or alter the material you consider should not be there accordingly.", and it still holds true.
>I seen your page, and God didtn create my yesterday.
I am unable to determine what you are referring to here. I cannot answer your point.
>Ive see the things you have up making fun of christians for what they are
quoted on.
Yes, quotes from Christians of various Christian sects on my "Things They Say" page. They are some of the quotes I have gathered that were written in newsgroups, websites and emails. The appreciation of the things that these Christians have said, is up to the reader. I find the quotes funny, because they are, amongst other things: peculiar, demonstrably wrong, contradictory, uninformed and un-Christian. If there is something on this page you feel should not be there I will remove it - but only if you can demonstrate why. Is that not fair?
>Get a new hobby!
But I have enough hobbies already. I like to fly kites (including the big big whizzy ones), cook puddings, compose and arrange music, and jiggle my website. As well as all the other incidental 'hobbies' like TV, radio, music, reading and surfing the web.
> Until you 'walk the walk and talk the talks' then you dont you tell me what a
bad
job i am doing, because so far its a heck of a lot better than what you is
doing! i would expect so much more from a adult.
I cannot see that your interpretation of the Christian god exists anywhere other than in you own mind. You have provided no evidence whatsoever to convince me otherwise. The 'walk the walk' bit was an invitation for to you to make an attempt to explain to me your God in terms that this Brit can understand, so that he can perceive it's existence as somewhere other than in your head. I don't think that you can do it. Heck, you didn't do it. But you are still welcome to try. Perhaps in your prayers you could ask your God to come to me in a dream or a vision or something, just like 'he' did to all those people in the Bible stories so regularly. No hang on, if that happened how could I tell that it wasn't a vision or dream from the devil?
However, you assume that I will not 'walk the walk'. But I will. Indeed, a start has been made. Pretty soon I hope to be part of a new Atheist group here in England. Some friends - from all over the country - have proposed a new Atheist organization pretty much like The Atheist Alliance in the US. I am very keen to help start it, to help shape it, to help promote it and to help represent it. Europe-wide if possible. Our agenda? Well...
The public acceptance of Atheism as a valid life choice.
Exposure of all forms of religious fraud.
Abolition of preferential treatment for religion by the state.
Public education in matters scientific.
Provision of practical help, advice and assistance from a non-religious
standpoint to those requiring it.
...has been proposed as a start, but that may change.
I don't suppose that you will be wishing us good luck in our endeavours will you? No? Never mind.
>Where do you think the Bible comes from? i doubt that many people would
work together to create a work of fiction and then worship it. Proof of the
Bible being non-fiction is Noah's Ark, which HAS been found. I've seen
countless news broadcasts and shows about the discovery.
I agree that the Bible was written by humans, the earlier section by Middle-Eastern bronze-age nomads and goat-herds, and the later section by first to tenth, (maybe eleventh) century Middle-Eastern and European Christians. I don't think that anyone worships the Bible though. Do you? Again you propose a non sequitur. What you assert could apply to any religious scripture, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Mormon, whatever.
Even if what you saw on TV was proof that the remains of a large wooden boat were found half-way up a mountain in Turkey, please explain how anything else apart from that follows. I think that the Biblical flood story cannot have happened in reality. Do you? I will explain why if you are interested.
>Just because i dont quot the Bible left and rite, unlike you (wow, more
irony!) doesnt mean im not a Christan so you have no need to rub that in my
faece.
You have me there! Yes, up to this point I have quoted the Bible twice - both left and right. I have no problem with you quoting Biblical passages. Therein lies the core of your belief. I never asserted that you were not a Christian. But being a Christian is no
guarantee that you will be as knowledgeable about the Bible as the Atheist, Wiccan or Satanist who is standing next to you. The converse is also true. However I would assert that the average Atheist is more conversant with things Biblical than the average Christian, and I will explain why if you are interested. But to be honest I would not consider myself as knowledgeable as even the average Atheist in this matter. I have been proclaiming overtly my non-belief for much less than a year, and I still have much to learn.
>I believe that since you know the
Bible so well, Satan he has his hold on you, because Satan he knows the Bible better
than anybody.
I am not a Bible scholar and have not professed to be. I have no belief in Satan, fallen angels or any sons of man. Angels, despite their elaborate renaissance depiction are equally valid as the tooth fairy and Santa. How do you know that Satan knows the Bible better than anybody? Is this a new theological proposition or one that I have not heard before? Anyway, where is the evidence?
Here are most of the points from my last email you didn't have a go at addressing:
You forgot to explain how your beliefs invalidate someone else's.
You didn't explain how your asserting something makes it come true.
I asked why you thought the writer of Deuteronomy 3:22 wrote about his god as a "he".
There was no proof of the non-existence of Allah, Invisible Pink Unicorns or Hubert the Beaver God.
You did not attempt an explanation of the link between geography and personal belief.
You have not argued that your religion is the one, true religion.
You have not confirmed the Constitutional First Amendment right to free speech.
You have shown no respect for my non-belief.
You forgot about Christianity's disgraceful history.
You didn't point out any errors on my website.
There was no description of a soul.
You forgot to mention if any of the following were going to hell: dogs,
David Copperfield, Penn, Teller, pimps, murderers, Catholics, or Christians
who deliberately lie on their tribute websites.
What did your mom think of the letter that I wrote to her? Will she reply?
I look forward to your full and comprehensive reply.
Your English correspondent
Martin J BurnLaura's last email:
hey, i get easily distracted and i dont have time to read all of this, so next
time, just list your questions in a row so i can just anser them and
i can get on with my lyf.And there I left it. I am not expecting any more emails from Laura.
Laura seems to have been beautifully indoctrinated. She has only one incomplete view of the faith she espouses - one supposes that of her religious masters. To me she was unable to embrace reality in any meaningful form. At 14 I was reading Orwell, Asimov, Velikovsky, Aldous Huxley, Wyndam, Solzhenitsyn, Kafka and such like - and formulating my own opinions on them. I wonder if Laura has ever read anything more than the front of a Snickers wrapper. Her spelling is atrocious, and if a spell checker was available to her she did not bother to use it. Her grammar is pitiful. Her appreciation of the rights of others as guaranteed by the First Amendment of the American Constitution is non-existent. I really do have to wonder what is happening within the US educational system.
Laura's emails are not untypical. I have received several emails from young, American Christians of late - my dancing beaver page seems to have inspired them to write to me. They cannot, or will not answer my questions. Most deny freedom of speech if it opposes their religious belief. None of them are aware of the content of the Bible, other than the minuscule amount they have been taught.
I may publish more enlightening email exchanges similar to the above in the future. How's that for a prophecy?
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