question2

#10-

But Srila Prabhupada said!

Here is point #10, given as evidence for #1a. [claiming Srila Prabhupada’s order for a ritvik system on 5/28 and 7/9 as only a temporary system.] “Those possessing the title of Bhakti-vedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975 all my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program.” (letter to Hamsadutta, 1968)

Discussion on this-

1. How can all the disciples initiate while Srila Prabhupada is still present? This sounds like initiating “on behalf” to me. The disciple is forbidden to initiate in the presence of the guru still on the planet. This sounds like a system of representation.

2. As we see in the axiom #2 below, the last order given by Srila Prabhupada is mandatory for us to obey. Read it and see that Srila Prabhupada is telling us unconditionally that “what I say to you now you do it, that is obedience you cannot argue.” We cannot argue, we must obey the last instruction!!!

Sometimes the guru changes his plans, or whatever, and we must obey the last instruction he gave us. We cannot say, “oh dear Sir, you said in a letter of 1968 to Hamsadutta that we shall initiate, therefore we cannot obey your order made in 1977. No, we must obey the 77 order. Axiomatic Premise #2.

A bona fide disciple cannot nullify or question a latter statement on guru tattva from Srila Prabhupada, like in 1977, by arguing a prior statement from Srila Prabhupada which seems to be contradictory to the latter statement. In other words, a disciple cannot minimize a statement made in 77, by citing some prior instruction. This is the principle of “the final or last order.”

Example- “I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly to you, you do it. Your first duty is to do that, you cannot argue -‘Sir, you said to me do like this before’, no that is not your duty, what I say to you now you do it, that is obedience you cannot argue.” (SP S.B. Lecture, 14/4/75, Hyderabad)

This does not support #1a, rather it supports #1.

#11-

Statements that appear contradictory to the neophyte students-

Here we look at several statements offered recently that appear to be contradictory to Srila Prabhupada’s statements of “officiating acharyas” or “ritviks” in 1977. If there is a contradiction, then which do we follow? There are 2 principles we are working with here.

1. First, we have the axiom #2 principle, or Srila Prabhupada telling us in the quote below in Hyderbad, that we cannot argue with a prior instruction with a view of avoiding a current instruction. In other words, the last order must be followed, regardless of prior instructions, which seem to contradict them.

2. Secondly, we understand that an order or statement made to the entire society, or distributed to all temples has more weight that instructions made to one individual. We cannot discard a world wide order with one singular comment to one individual, which was made 10 years before.

The basis, and template, of the principle #1 is the following quote-

Srila Prabhupada – “I may say many things to you, but when I say something directly to you, you do it. Your first duty is to do that, you cannot argue -‘Sir, you said to me do like this before’, no that is not your duty, what I say to you now you do it, that is obedience you cannot argue.” (SP S.B. Lecture, 14/4/75, Hyderabad) First statement-

“Those possessing the title of Bhakti-vedanta will be allowed to initiate disciples. Maybe by 1975 all my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program.” (lettter to Hamsadutta, 1968)

In effect, these devotees are using this quote to argue, “Sir, you said to Hamsadutta in 1968, that we should be initiating gurus by 1975.” Following the template above, Srila Prabhupada says, “no that is not your duty, what I say to you now you do it, [the order of 7/9], that is obedience you cannot argue.”

Note- They did not become initiating gurus in 1975. This is not an order from Srila Prabhupada, rather it was his aspiration. An aspiration is not the same as an order. The situation has changed greatly from 1968 to 1977. Srila Prabhupada was hoping that his men would become gurus, but they did not advance as he would have liked. There’s plenty of proof of this, of which we will add in the future points of this series. The statements or 5/28 and 7/9 constitutes an order, not an aspiration. By the 2 principles, we see this statement to Hamsadutta, one person, is overturned by the 7/9 letter to the whole society, which is the last, or final order.

Next-

They may say, “Dear sir, you said in a letter to Madhusudana”- Srila Prabhupada- “I wish that in my absence all my disciples become the bona fide spiritual master to spread Krsna consciousness throughout the whole world. (SPL Madhusudana, Nov. 2, 1967)

Again, one individual does not equal a letter to the whole world. Again, the last order must be obeyed, we “cannot argue.”

Next-

They may say, “Dear sir, you said to one devotee in 69”- Srila Prabhupada- “Regarding your question about the disciplic succession coming down from Arjuna, it is just like I have got my disciples, so in the future these many disciples may have many branches of disciplic succession.(Los Angeles, 25 January, 1969)

Again, one person, not the whole world. Again, the order of 77 is not made invalid by some prior statement in 1969, principle #1.

Also, some gurus may claim that they were ordered by Srila Prabhupada, to be guru. Ok, then they should make their own branch. Why should they outlaw the ritvik plan setup by Srila Prabhupada? Why not let both go on, what is the harm? Let devotees choose which one they want. This could be the “unity in diversity.” Rather than fight, let both go on. Srila Prabhupada setup this ritvik system for his Iskcon, and if some want to branch off, like this statement above, “may have many branches of disciplic succession,” then let them do their own branch. Why should they dictate that Iskcon should only have a fallen guru system, and not the ritvik system that Srila Prabhupada setup? They say it was only temporary, but there’s no proof for that. This is only their subjective wish, not the objective fact of the matter. We follow only the objective facts, not subjective opinions.

Next-

Every one of you should be spiritual master next. (Hamburg, September 5, 1969)

Note, what kind of spiritual master? Srila Prabhupada said we were the siksa gurus, and he was the diksa guru. And again, this does not get around the principle of the last order.

Next-

These students, who are initiated from me, all of them will act as I am doing. Just like I have got many Godbrothers, they are all acting. Similarly, all these disciples which I am making, initiating, they are being trained to become future spiritual masters. (RC Detroit, July 18, 1971)

Again, they say, “dear sir, you said in 1971,” but Srila Prabhupada says, “no that is not your duty, what I say to you now you do it, [letter of 7/9] that is obedience you cannot argue.” This is a 1971 statement to one person, the 77 letter is to the whole world.

Next-

You, all my disciples, everyone should become spiritual master. (London, August 22, 1973)

Note- Yes, of course. But we cannot become diksa guru, not without the specific order from Srila Prabhupada to do so. The blanket order is for us all to be siksa gurus, not diksa gurus. Srila Prabhupada didn’t want a mess of unqualified gurus, like in the Gaudiya Matha, which he made specific reference to.

Next-

Every student is expected to become acarya. Acarya means one who knows the scriptural injunctions and follows them practically in life, and teaches them to his disciples... I want to see my disciples become bona fide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy... Keep trained up very rigidly and then you are bonafide Guru, and you can accept disciples on the same principle. But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. (SPL Tusta Krsna, December 2, 1975)

Again, this does not overturn the 77 order, but rather, the 77 order overturns whatever this prior statement may say. Again, this is to one person, Tusta Krishna, which is overturned by the letter to the entire society. The latter is an order to the whole world, and the former is only to one person. And Srila Prabhupada can change his plan, according to the changing time and circumstance. The changing circumstance was the disappointment of advancement of his leading men. We'll add proof of that later.

Next-

Srila Prabhupada, quoting his Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, writes very clearly that the order of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is for everyone to become spiritual master (yare dekhi tare kaha krsna upadesa amara ajnaya guru hana tare ei desa) and that one is qualified to become guru if he knows the science of Krsna consciousness (yei krsna-tattva vetta sei guru haya).

Note- reading the purport, we learn that Srila Prabhupada writes very clearly, “best not to accept disciples.” Here Srila Prabhupada is specifically asking us to be siksa gurus, not diksa gurus. All these points supports #1, and does not support #1a.

More points will be added in future, ys visoka dasa

#12-

“When I order”

Only Srila Prabhupada can order a successor diksa guru. One cannot be guru, until he is ordered by his predecessor guru.

Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he's ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru. > Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 7.2 -- Nairobi, October 28, 1975.

The spiritual master must never be carried away by an accumulation of wealth or a large number of followers. A bona fide spiritual master will never become like that. But sometimes, if a spiritual master is not properly authorized and only on his own initiative becomes a spiritual master, he may be carried away by an accumulation of wealth and large numbers of disciples. >> Ref. VedaBase => NoD 14: Devotional Qualifications

An actual guru always remains the servant of his own guru and the predecessor acaryas. Attempting to become a guru without one's own guru's order is a materialistic ambition. Accepting followers and circumventing one's own guru is offensive. > Ref. VedaBase => MGM 22-11: A Lost Son Visits Home

"One should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana." (S.B. 4.8.54, purport)

"Guru cannot be self-made. No. There is no such single instance throughout the whole Vedic literature. And nowadays, so many rascals, they are becoming guru without any authority. That is not guru. You must be authorised. Evam parampara-praptam imam ra... As soon as the parampara is...kalena yogo nasta parantapa, immediately finished. The spiritual potency finished. You can dress like a guru, you can talk big, big words, but it will never be effective." (Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture, February 27th 1977, Mayapur, India)

“Self-made guru cannot be guru. He must be authorized by the bona fide guru. Then he's guru. This is the fact...Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be authorized by the superior guru.” (SP NOD Lecture, October 31. 1972)

“Therefore guru must be authorized person, not that bhumi-phala-guru. No. "I am guru," no. You cannot become guru unless you are agent to draw out the mercy water from the ocean of mercy of Krsna. That is guru. And therefore a guru is not an ordinary person. He is the representative, bona fide representative of Krsna.” (SB Lecture,November 30, 1976)

The reason why the GM failed is because they UNAUTHORISEDLY selected an Acarya to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta:

“Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, at the time of his departure, requested all his disciples to form a governing body and conduct missionary activities cooperatively. He did not instruct a particular man to become the next acarya. But just after his passing away, his leading secretaries made plans, without authority, to occupy the post of acarya, and they split into two factions over who the next acarya would be. Consequently, both factions were asara, or useless, because they had no authority, having disobeyed the order of the spiritual master.” (Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila, 12.8, purport)

“Why this Gaudiya Matha failed? Because they tried to become more than guru. […] They declared some unfit person to become acarya. Then another man came, then another, acarya, another acarya.” (Srila Prabhupada Room Conversation, 16/8/76)

Srila Prabhupada warned: “Therefore we may not commit the same mistake in our ISKCON camp.” (Srila Prabhupada Letter To Rupanuga, 28/4/74)

But that’s what EXACTLY happened in the ISKCON camp. Unauthorised gurus, with no authority from Srila Prabhupada, posing as his diksa successors. The result is obvious.

This supports #1.

#13-

How can the names be included in the book, in a ritvik system?

M- You again misquote by omitting the fact that the names of the newly initiated disciples are to be sent to SRILA PRABHUPADA to be included in the book.

J- I was highlighting the *PURPOSE* of sending the names to Srila Prabhupada. At the point the names were sent to Srila Prabhupada, the candidates were ALREADY initiated as disciples of Srila Prabhupada:

"The name of a NEWLY INITIATED DISCIPLE should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book."

In other words, the purpose of sending the names to Srila Prabhupada was so that they could be included in SP's "Initiated Disciples" book. That activity can still carry on today and for the next 10,000 years. Whether SP is physically present to receive these names has no bearing on the initiation of new disciples, since at the point when the names are sent for inclusion in SP's book, the candidate has already been initiated!

It's just like when you write a Vyasa Puja offering today to Srila Prabhupada. Does the fact that he is not physically present invalidate the offering you make? Obviously not. Similarly, sending the names of newly initiated disciples does not require SP's physical presence to accept them.

M- I agree, that J9 does not state that any other diksa guru is involved, but J9 also says nothing about Srila Prabhupada no longer being present. Srila Prabhupadas signature appears on the J9 document which has no bearing on a time when Srila Prabhupada is no longer present while making full reference to Him personally receiving the names of newly initiated disciples.

J- Exactly. The fact that there is no time frame mentioned in J9 means that terminating SP's role as diksa guru at the point of his physical departure is both illogical and unauthorised - since J9 does not say that upon SP's departure he will cease to be the diksa guru and someone else will take over. Regarding his receiving the names - please refer to my point above.

M- The Acarya does not name his successor, he does not appoint the acarya. This is anti-shastra, anti-guru, anti- sadhu nonsense that Srila Prabhupada clearly derided when speaking of false appointments of acaryas done by GM.

J- The Acarya clearly AUTHORISES his next successor, otherwise anyone claiming to be his diksa guru successor is UNAUTHORISED. This is stated many times by Srila Prabhupada:

Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.

(SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75)

This supports #1.

#14-

How do new devotees stay?

From the 89 Vyasa-Puja book, the offering from Radhadesa-

"While you were here amongst us, spiritual seekers came by tens and hundreds to hear your discourses, take your prasadam, and chant the holy name. Undoubtedly, any person who had the fortune to receive a few drops of the caranamrta directly from you acquired special benefit. But, to this very day, people still come to join, asking for you. Are they also deprived of the fortune of having your darsana?

Our experience tells us otherwise. Have we not witnessed that the self-same bhagavata-darsana which nurtured your own disciples is just as available to all the unfortunate souls of this age through your vani (your books, recordings, and instructions)? You told us that if someone even touches one of your books, he is eternally benefited; or if he reads one word, his life is perfect. How can anyone say, then, that direct approach to you is exclusive to only your initiated disciples? If that were so, how could thousands of disciples of fallen gurus continue in ISKCON despite so much heartbreak and disappointment? Actually, as leaders and senior members of the Society, we owe them (and you) deep apologies for not being up to the standard you expected of us. If we seriously reflect on our less-than-perfect record since your departure, and honestly evaluate our deficiencies, we will see that the very best we can offer future generations is the legacy of your instructions -- assisting as monitors, not dominating as didactic pedants." [written by Srila dasa] > Ref. VedaBase => Radhadesa

A great point- "How can anyone say, then, that direct approach to you is exclusive to only your initiated disciples? If that were so, how could thousands of disciples of fallen gurus continue in ISKCON despite so much heartbreak and disappointment?"

V- a good point, how do they continue? Because their real connection is with Srila Prabhupada. To get the pure name, you must recieve it from the pure devotee, who possesses the pure name. A fallen guru cannot give the pure name, so they, the new disciple, actually recieves the pure name, suddha-nama, and divya-jnana from Srila Prabhupada in the very beginning. Otherwise, how can they go on? The present guru is only like a monitor guru, a spiritual advisor. If the guru is uttama and pure, ok, but if not, then why drag out the pretention? Let them be monitor gurus, better to be honest and continue in service to Srila Prabhupada, and there is no loss. The real thing is coming from Srila Prabhupada.

other point- "the very best we can offer future generations is the legacy of your instructions -- assisting as monitors, not dominating as didactic pedants."

V- yes, assisting as monitor gurus, siksa gurus, not dominating as didactic pendants, who requires total worship and surrender to one who is not yet perfect. If the gurus only came to the point of this humble mood, being monitor guru, being "officiating acharya," and then allowing the desires of 1000's of other disciples, allow their god given right to follow the ritvik system set up by Srila Prabhupada, as they see as Srila Prabhupada's instructions to them, allow both choices, then both sides tolerating each other, recognizing each other as Vaisnavas, then we could all have "unity in diversity," and then we will see the beginning of the end of our troubles. But to hang on to the diversity, not allowing the unity, this mess will only drag on and on with no relief in sight. Hare Krishna.

This is in support of #1.