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The online Encyclopedia of guru-tattva Philosophical exposition of guru-tattva A service for followers of Srila Prabhupada
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada, founder acharya of ISKCON "These original teachings and the founder-acarya of the sampradaya should be worshiped with all respect. One should be loyal to his conclusions and instructions, not taking teachings from others. One should take as siksa guru only a person who is following faithfully the teachings of that founder-acarya.” Quote by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, in Harinama Cintamani: Chapter 6 This forum is being updated continually with more discussion. About 14 or so devotees have contributed so far. Any devotee who wishes to contribute a topic or a comment, he or she can contact us by clicking- Comments Suggestion for solution to guru issue - Redemption Read the introduction later - go directly to discussions Recent discussion- re-construction of Iskcon history recent controversy on Gaur-Govinda appoint [more discussion] Exposition
- definition: The idea behind Dipikapedia is to supply all necessary quotes from Srila Prabhupada on guru-tattva, and also have extensive discussion in the mode of dialogue instead of emotional debate. The idea is not to promote some final conclusion, but to allow all views on the subject to be aired and responded to, by anyone, in the mode of civil discussion. This project is a devotee service for the dissemination of information, in the spirit of Wikipedia, in that it is a free information encyclopedia of guru-tattva as contributed by all devotees who want to add information or discussion. Everyone is invited to contribute to the website. Dipika means "a lamp to see by." Any person can send in comments or challenges, and names are withheld. There is no need to credit or discredit any individual or group of individuals. The matter of "what is said" is of most importance, whereas the matter of "who said it" is not so important. It is not a forum for promoting any faction or agenda. The goal is an encyclopedia of Srila Prabhupada's words on these subject matters, and our discussion to serve as a lamp for which to see and understand his desires. Discussion will be held in a non-combative spirit, and statements will be presented in a simple matter-of-fact style, free from emotional embellishment. Feel free to click on the "comment" button at the bottom of page and send in your comments or challenges, and everyone's identity will be withheld. Some may even want to withhold their identity from the editors of this site, so they can use an alternate email address. To add a topic, or comment on below topics, click here- Comments Quick
access to current topics- all devotees in Srila Prabhupada’s movement will eventually be
liberated // Discussion of
5/28 conversation // The 4 possible assumptions of
the 5/28 conversation // Discussion on literal
vs.
contextual meanings // the 4 functions of a diksa guru
// Discussion of the
"law of disciplic succession" letter (also see premise #7
on this subject) //
Discussion of the "one and only question."
// Why not take initiation from Arjuna or Jiva Gosvami? //
Who
is the real author of the 7/9/77 letter? page two of exposition discussions The companion Dipikapedia site of relevant quotes from Srila Prabhupada on this subject matter- quotes Table of contents- Introduction to the goal List of category quote labels The compilation of premises Premise 1- Srila Prabhupada is sole authority Premise 2- The order for siksa gurus Premise 3- The order for diksa is an individual order - points taken from the law of disciplic succession letter Premise 4- Necessary training and qualifications of diksa Premise 5- Diksa guru must be specifically ordered by his predecessor spiritual master Premise 6- The founder acharya gives all direction before departing this world Premise 7- A single instruction that is spoken or written to one disciple, may not necessarily be applicable for all disciples. Premise 8- Madhyma and kanistha devotees can be gurus, but Srila Prabhupada doesn’t recommend them. Premise #9- Siksa guru agents of Srila Prabhupada perpetuate the parampara. Discussion #1 - On the matter of the 5/28 conversation in Vrndavan, 1977. Discussion #2 - On direct meaning vs. contextual meaning Discussion #3 - The one and only question Discussion #3a - The "law of disciplic succession" Also see premise7 Discussion #4 - Why not take initiation from Krsna, Arjuna, Srila Jiva Gosvami? Discussion # 5 - Who is the real author of the 7/9/77 letter? Discussion # 6 -The first question and answer of 5/28 is clear, but the rest is confusing, why? Discussion # 7 - Not so confusing after all Discussion # 8 - Re-construction of Iskcon History The companion Dipikapedia site for quotes pertaining to guru-tattva links being added at bottom of page This philosophical treatise involves objective analysis and synthesis of Srila Prabhupada’s guru-tattva. Such treatise avoids apologetic arguments of various factions. This treatise is solely for the service of Srila Prabhupada. The aim is to allow Srila Prabhupada to state his guru-tattva in his own words, without assumption-based interpretation. This is a humble attempt for service, to illuminate the truth of his guru-tattva. Philosophy is commonly defined as love of wisdom and truth. Truth is the noblest goal of human occupation, and discernment of Srila Prabhupada’s guru-tattva is our life and soul, for such service and truth will set us free. Before this undertaking, we open our philosophy toolbox and survey our tools. The detection device for example, is used to scrutinize different interpretations to isolate undesirables such as “assumptions,” or “presuppositions,” and categorize them as such, and then deal with them logically. Then we have a system of categorization tools, or labels, by which we use to identify the various source documents. Source documents are Srila Prabhupada’s quotes on guru-tattva, of which we will attempt to compile from his books and conversations and letters and lectures, which pertain to his guru-tattva. The category label tool is to help us see the “whole picture” of how his quotes form a cohesive guru-tattva. Our aim is to organize these documents into specific categories, which help us to understand the dynamic history and connection of Srila Prabhupada’s quotes on guru-tattva. We do not wish to force any arbitrary opinion but try to let the logic of Srila Prabhupada’s words speak for themselves. Examples of categories are as follows; some quotes are “general guru philosophy, ” some are “instructive anecdotes.” Here is the list- 1. Absolute and universal instruction for all times, all persons, all places. 2. Appears to be universal on surface, but the context to entire history of quotes deems it to be a relative instruction, perhaps to the person in context, or different situations alter it. 3. A conditional proposition. Srila Prabhupada proposes something, only if certain conditions are met. 4. Given to one disciple, but may not be applicable to all disciples. 5. Quote of aspiration. Srila Prabhupada hopes this will happen. 6. Instructive anecdote. 7. General guru philosophy. 8. Assertion of a definite decision. 9. Tentative instruction, subject to change due to future circumstances. 10. A conclusive and final order. 11. Notice of a near future pending action. 12. A statement of action, of order. 13. A statement, or statements, which refers to a previous order by Srila Prabhupada, after the fact, which confirms this particular previous statement. The next important tool we open is the compartment of “logical threads.” These spools of “logical threads” will help us to make essential connections of the categories of source documents, by tying them together in a coherent strand of logical progression. We wish no confrontation or competition from godbrothers, but will happily accept exchanges on these topics. True philosophy does not compromise its love of truth for some profit or gain or for a personal or group agenda. Philosophical correctness is a symptom of Krishna consciousness. Philosophical incorrectness is the root cause of all anxiety wherein the ego will insist, “I am right,” while Supersoul in his heart is declaring he is wrong. Without philosophical correctness, a person is devoid of peace, his mind giving distress day and night, despite all artificial attempts to gain peace. This thesis aims solely for philosophical correctness and love for the truth, and tries to avoid arbitrary opinions. So without further ado, we begin the adventure of “philosophical exposition of guru-tattva.” First task of this treatise is the systematic compilation and analysis and categorization of Srila Prabhupada’s quotes, or “source documents” on guru-tattva. This also involves the compilation of many premises, by which a detailed exposition of the connection of such premises will define Srila Prabhupada’s guru-tattva in total. Substantiating quotes and comments will normally be given in support of each premise. At the completion of such process, the final step will be synthesis of all such data into a coherent understanding of Srila Prabhupada’s overall teaching on guru-tattva. Premise #1- Srila Prabhupada is founder acharya of his Iskcon, and he is the sole authority on all philosophical subjects within his institution, including guru-tattva. Note- There is no need for validation of this premise, however, the following quote fully explains the absolute position of Srila Prabhupada and the necessity that all Iskcon devotees must be loyal to the founder acharya. "These original teachings and the founder-acarya of the sampradaya should be worshiped with all respect. One should be loyal to his conclusions and instructions, not taking teachings from others. One should take as siksa guru only a person who is following faithfully the teachings of that founder-acarya.” Quote by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, in Harinama Cintamani: Chapter 6 Premise #2- Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya gave blanket orders to all devotees of Iskcon, to become siksa gurus, and save the conditioned souls. Quotes- "Instruct
everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krsna as they are given in the
Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual
master and try to liberate everyone in this land." (Cc Madhya
7:128) Purport
to this section of Cc- "It
is best not to accept any disciples. One has to become purified at home
by chanting the Hare Krsna maha-mantra and preaching the principles
enunciated by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Thus one can become a spiritual
master and be freed from the contamination of material life." (Cc
Madhya 7:130, purport) "The instruction is there; you simply repeat and let them hear -- you become guru. It is not difficult at all. So that is our preaching. We do not want to become alone guru, but we want to preach in such a way that every, the chief man, or any man, he can become guru in his surroundings. Anyone can do that. Even a coolie, he can also, he has got family, he has got friends, so even though he is illiterate, he can hear the instruction of Krsna, and he can preach the same. This we want." > Bhagavad-gita 7.1 -- Bombay, December 20, 1975 Note- From careful examination of Srila Prabhupada’s Cc Madhya 7:130 purport, we ascertain that Srila Prabhupada describes such gurus to be siksa gurus. In the last quote we see that minimal qualification is required to be siksa guru, even a coolie can be guru, even the illiterate can be guru. There are many more quotes on siksa gurus, to be given soon. "The
GBC should all be the instructor gurus. I am the initiator guru, and you
should be the instructor guru by teaching what I am teaching and doing
what I am doing." (SP
Letter to Madhudvisa, 4/8/75) "Sometimes
a diksa guru is not present always. Therefore one can take learning,
instruction, from an advanced devotee. That is called the siksa
guru." (SP
Bg. Lecture, 4/7/74, Honolulu) Such quotes for siksa gurus are in the category of #1, absolute orders for all followers of Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya, ordering all Vaisnavas to be siksa gurus, although some devotees take some quotes to be for diksa guru. This will be discussed in this exposition. More discussion on siksa and diksa gurus- here Premise #3- The order for diksa is an individual order given to a single qualified disciple, whom the acharya chooses to be a diksa guru. There are no blanket orders for many diksa gurus, only singular orders to one disciple, given by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada wrote the “law of disciplic succession” letter, wherein Srila Prabhupada states that it is a commonly known law in Vaisnava history, that disciples do not take disciples while their guru is still present within his earthly incarnation. Quote- “But as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession. I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy. (Letter: December 2, 1975) Note- Srila Prabhupada says “You can accept disciples without limitation.” The subject is singular in this sentence. The reference is to only one disciple, whom Srila Prabhupada is personally writing to, and not necessarily a blanket instruction to all disciples. Therefore this statement is given a category # 4, “Given to one disciple, but may not be applicable to all disciples.” We give it a #2 also, “appears to be universal on surface, but the context to entire history of quotes deems it to be a relative instruction, perhaps to the person in context, or different situations alter it.” The reasons this sentence is given a category #4, and #2, and the context of the letter will be explained in more detail later. Srila Prabhupada then writes in the letter, “I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely, that will make me and Krishna very happy.” The subject is plural in this sentence, and does not arbitrarily refer to a group of diksa gurus. Siksa gurus are able to spread Krsna consciousness, and that was the system in Iskcon at the time, many siksa gurus spreading Krsna consciousness. As we establish more premises and a foundation of tattva, these points will become clear. We
see that Srila Prabhupada gave orders for all his disciples to be siksa
gurus while he was present. They are to bring prospective disciples to
him. However, the order for a diksa guru is given to an individual
disciple, but not a wholesale order to a large group of disciples. The
reasons for this will be developed in this essay. An
order for diksa guru is generally given at the end of the earthly
manifestation of the founder acharya. The reason for the necessity of an
individual order given to one disciple, to be diksa guru, is apparent in
the following premises. More discussion of the discussion of the "law" and other topics such as Srila Prabhupada wanting diksa gurus in 75, the guru taking karma, so on, click here
Premise
#4- To be considered a candidate for the post of diksa guru, a disciple
must have completed the necessary training to be a diksa guru, which
means that he must have reached the necessary qualifications to be a
diksa guru, per the teachings and quotes of Srila Prabhupada. Quotes- Diksa guru must complete
the training- Tamala Krsna: ...but not now. Prabhupada: Yes. I shall choose some guru. I shall say, "Now you become acarya. You become authorized." I am waiting for that. You become all acarya. I retire completely. But the training must be complete. Tamala Krsna: The process of purification must be there. Prabhupada: Oh, yes, must be there. Caitanya Mahaprabhu wants that. Amara ajnaya guru hana [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. "You become guru." (laughs) But be qualified. Little thing, strictly follower... Tamala Krsna: Not rubber stamp. Prabhupada:
Then you'll not be effective. You can cheat, but it will not be
effective. Just see our Gaudiya Matha. Everyone wanted to become guru,
and a small temple and "guru." What kind of guru? No
publication, no preaching, simply bring some foodstuff... My Guru
Maharaja used to say, "Joint mess," a place for eating and
sleeping.
Diksa
guru must be qualified- One
should not become a spiritual master unless he has attained the platform
of uttama-adhikari. A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the
intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must
be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot
advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his Note- We see that a perspective candidate for diksa guru must complete the required training, and then be recognized by his guru to have reached the uttama platform, and then he is ordered to be guru, by the authority of his guru, as premise #5 will show. The first quote reveals that Srila Prabhupada says there are many gurus in the Gaudiya Matha, but they are not effective, i.e., they are unqualified and not ordered. There are many more quotes on how a diksa guru must be qualified, go to master list. Premise #5- Diksa guru must be specifically ordered by his predecessor spiritual master, otherwise no one can become diksa guru. Quotes- "Vallabha
Bhatta wanted to be initiated by Gadadhara Pandita, but Gadadhara
Pandita refused, saying, "The work of acting as a spiritual master
is not possible for me. "I am completely dependent. My Lord is
Gauracandra, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. I cannot do anything
independently, without His order." (CC, Antya 7:150-151) Srila
Prabhupada - “Try to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can
become guru when he is ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody
can become guru. " (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75) "Self-made
guru cannot be guru. He must be authorized by the bona fide guru. Then
he's guru. This is the fact...Similarly, bona fide guru means he must be
authorized by the superior guru." (SP NOD Lecture, October 31.
1972) "A
Guru can be Guru when he is ordered by his Guru.
That's all. Otherwise
nobody can become Guru." "One
should take initiation from a bona fide spiritual master coming in the
disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual
master. This is called diksa-vidhana."
(S.B. 4.8.54, purport) Possible
objection- <<
When did Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaj ask Srila Prabhupada to act as diksa
guru and gave him a document to do so? He was just asked to preach the
message of Lord Caitanya in west but yet he acted as diksa guru. Srila
Prabhupada have similarly asked his disciples to preach . The order to
act as Diksa guru comes from within the heart as Spiritual master
resides within the heart with Parmatma. Srila Prabhupada himself said
that his guru maharaj didn't appoint any acarya before he departed.
>> Note-
The
above is erroneous, because the diksa guru (initiating guru) must be
specifically ordered / authorized - just as Srila Prabhupada was: "Indian
man: When
did you become spiritual the leader of Krsna Consciousness? Srila
Prabhupada: What
is that? Brahmananda:
He
is asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna
Consciousness? Srila
Prabhupada: When
my Guru Maharaja ordered me. This is the guru parampara. Indian
man: Did
it... Srila
Prabhupada: Try
to understand. Don't go very speedily. A guru can become guru when he is
ordered by his guru. That's all. Otherwise nobody can become guru.
" (SP Bg. Lecture, 28/10/75) Possible
objection- But we don’t see documentation where Srila Bhaktisiddhanta
specifically ordered Srila Prabhupada to become diksa guru. Answer-
We don’t need to see a paper, because Srila Prabhupada gave us this
information. The disciple never questions the word of the
founder-acarya. We don’t need to know “how” the order transpired,
we only need to accept that he was ordered to be guru by Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta, because Srila Prabhupada told us so. Notes-
All quotes for this premise concludes that no one can be diksa guru
without the exclusive authorization from his predecessor guru. This conclusion comes from enough
evidence to point to that conclusion, it is not some arbitrary opinion.
Premise
#6- Srila Prabhupada uses the following example from the Gaudiya Matha
to show that the founder acharya will give all direction and
instructions to his disciples before passing away, and his silence is
instruction also. If
the founder acharya wants to appoint a successor guru, or gurus, then he
will express such wishes very clearly. If he does not want to appoint a
guru, and says nothing, then his silence is the answer to that issue.
The fact of not naming a successor, clearly indicates that no disciples
are qualified at that time. Quote– Srila
Prabhupada: "He, [Srila Bhaktisiddhanta "They
did not even consider common sense - that if guru maharaja had wanted to
APPOINT somebody as acharya, why he did not say? He said so many things
and this point he missed? The main point? And they insisted on it. They
declared, 'Come on unfit persons to become acharya,' then another man
comes, then another, then another. So better to remain a foolish person
perpetually to be directed by guru maharaja. So that is perfection. And
as soon as it was announced that, 'Guru maharaja is dead, now I am so
advanced that I can kill my guru and become [guru]'." (CONV
8/15/76) Note-
If there were 100’s of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s disciples who were
qualified to be diksa gurus, then Srila Bhaktisiddhanta would have named
them all to be successor diksa gurus, but he didn’t name even one.
From Srila Prabhupada’s statement we see that there were no qualified
gurus to succeed Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. This sentence “'Come
on unfit persons to become acharya,' …then another, then another,”
shows that out of 60,000 disciples, none were fit to be a successor
diksa guru. They were devotees, yes, and they were siksa gurus, yes, but
not diksa gurus in parampara, ordered to be diksa guru. Srila Prabhupada says in
other references that none of his godbrothers were qualified to be diksa
acharya. Srila Prabhupada became the successor guru by his own
qualification, his completion of training, proven by his radiant
self-effulgence, proving that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta personally chose him
to be diksa guru. On the other hand, lack of self-effulgence and lack of
qualification of his godbrothers show they were self-made gurus, not
chosen gurus by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Premise
#7- A single instruction that is spoken or written to one disciple, may
not necessarily be applicable for all disciples. For example, we return to
the letter quote of premise 3- “But
as a matter of etiquette it is the custom that during the lifetime of
your Spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and in
his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any
limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession.” From
casual observation a view may be taken from this statement that Srila
Prabhupada is giving permission for any disciple to become diksa guru
after his absence, and accept “disciples without any limitation.”
Srila Prabhupada is addressing a singular subject in this written
statement, in a circumstantial context. The context being that this
disciple was suspect of being overly ambitious and wanting to accept
disciples while Srila Prabhupada was still present. The errant behavior
of one disciple will often trigger a response from Srila Prabhupada that
is circumstantial only to that disciple at that particular time. Srila
Prabhupada was placating him, urging him not to make an offense of
taking disciples while his guru is still present. It is hardly a
universal instruction to all disciples, for this reason- “This
is risky because when a spiritual master accepts a disciple, he
naturally accepts the disciple's sinful activities and their reactions.
Unless he is very powerful, he cannot assimilate all the sinful
reactions of his disciples and has to suffer the consequences. Therefore
one is generally forbidden to accept many disciples.”
> Madhya 22.118 Most
senior disciples, and even some newer disciples, have sufficient
experience of the history of Iskcon guruship, and have personal
experience of devotees in general to know for certain that a great
number of Iskcon disciples are not “very powerful” as to accept the
sinful reactions of many disciples, and therefore are “generally
forbidden to accept many disciples.” This, of course, precludes the
stipulation that the disciple must be ordered by Srila Prabhupada to be
diksa guru in the first place. When Srila Prabhupada says to this one
disciple, “in
his absence or disappearance you can accept disciples without any
limitation,” does not mean that he is giving carte blanche to all
disciples to be guru and have unlimited disciples. He was talking to one
disciple, who was displaying errand behavior, and thus Srila Prabhupada
was placating him, in a sense saying “do whatever you want [cause
you’re going to do it anyway] only after I am absent.” We cannot
take the single statement to an errant disciple as a universal statement
to all disciples, this is a very dangerous assumption. This will become
more clear as we build our foundation of premises and supporting quotes. For more discussion on these points- click here Srila
Prabhupada said that madhyma and kanistha devotees can be gurus, but he
doesn’t recommend them, therefore he does not order them to be gurus. Quote-
“A neophyte Vaisnava or a Vaisnava situated on the intermediate platform can also accept disciples, but such disciples must be on the same platform, and it should be understood that they cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his insufficient guidance.” >>> Ref. VedaBase => NoI: verse 5 Note- If Srila Prabhupada thinks that “they
cannot advance very well toward the ultimate goal of life under his
insufficient guidance,” then surely Srila Prabhupada would not order
such an insufficient guru to
give insufficient guidance to new disciples.
IMHO-
This may be more subjective than objective, but this is based on my own
personal experience, actual cases that I’ve been involved in, and it
is also based on logic and evidence. It is my opinion that I believe
that all devotees in Srila Prabhupada’s movement will eventually be
liberated, or they are fit for liberation, despite the situations of
being initiated by the lesser kinds of gurus described in #8 [madhyma
or kanistha guru]
above. One
senior godbrother has said “anyone who makes contact with Srila
Prabhupada will surely be liberated and go back to godhead, but some may
take longer, some may have to go through hell first, but they will
eventually be liberated.” [paraphrased] I agree with this for the
following reasons. There
are 5 situations- 1.
Some disciples may believe that their guru is uttama, and the guru may
believe as such. There is no need to argue, that is their belief.
However, if the guru is truly uttama and a pure devotee, etc, then this
will be revealed to everyone in due course of time by Lord Krishna’s
grace, as He will personally empower this devotee. Srila Prabhupada has
blessed this devotee and has already ordered him to be diksa guru. Such
a devotee will be loved by all devotees, not just disciples, and will
have no enmity with any other devotee, even if other devotee has
philosophical disagreements with him. Such a pure devotee will never
reject or alienate his godbrothers due to philosophical issues which he
cannot convince such godbrothers by argumentation and logic. In other
words, such a pure devotee will not alienate the so-called ritvik
godbrothers, but will discuss issues in a civil manner with them,
showing all respect. If this is all true, then Lord Krishna will reveal
all these truths to everyone, in due course of time. There is no
argument, truth will be revealed. Possible
objection- One
might perhaps argue that Srila Prabhupada's position has not, or at
least has not yet, been revealed to everyone. For example, some of Srila
Prabhupada's godbrothers might not have seen his position in the same
way that some of Srila Prabhupada's followers see it. Answer-
The opinions of the eternally liberated devotees outweigh the opinions
of Srila Prabhupada’s godbrothers. Lord Krishna often reveals the
truth of His pure devotee through other pure devotees, such as Lochan
Das Thakur, and Bhaktivinode Thakur and Sri Narada, as we see from this
excerpt from veda-base- “Lochan
Das Thakur, in his Caitanya Mangal, predicted that a sena-pati, or a
"great general," would come and accomplish this mission. This
was Srila Prabhupada. Also, Bhaktivinoda Thakur, in an article entitled
"Nityananda Suryodoy," which was published in the 1800s, in
his Sajjana-toshani magazine -- he predicted that soon a time is coming
when the chanting of Krishna's name will be heard in England, France,
Russia, Germany, and America. Srila Prabhupada brought this to fruition.
There is also one document from the fifteenth century. It is called the
Bhagavat Mahatmya. In this book, Narada, the great sage, has a
conversation with bhakti personified. In the course of this
conversation, bhakti says, idam sthanam parityajya videsham gamyate
maya. Literally, this means: "I will leave this country, India, and
go abroad!" The same text informs us that this personified bhakti
will go to South India and then leave to go abroad after staying in Vrndavana.
This is exactly what Prabhupada did.” -
from veda-base, "Om Shalom" and found in the Essay- “Great
Souls Sometimes Re-appear” More
comment- Also,
some of Srila Prabhupada's followers might no longer see Srila
Prabhupada in the way that they used to. For example, they might no
longer see him as pure, Answer-
Owls do not open their eyes in sunlight, similarly those who are like
owls cannot open their eyes to the blinding light of truth which Lord
Krishna and great devotees reveal about the absolute position of Srila
Prabhupada. These “followers” are most lamentable that
they cannot understand these predictions of great devotees like Narada
and Srila Bhaktivinoda and even Lord Caitanya, the Lord Himself,
Who predicted that His name would be chanted in every town and village,
a prediction that Srila Prabhupada fulfilled. Other objection- It might
perhaps be argued that some of Srila Prabhupada's godbrothers did not
seem to display all Answer- In
our Iskcon situation, the world has already been conquered by Lord
Caitanya's great general, Srila Prabhupada, the predictions are already
fulfilled by Srila Prabhupada, none of his disciples can do again what
he already did. So there should not be that kind of envy of godbrothers
if one disciple becomes a pure devotee. This is because the condition of a disciple being a pure devotee is that he is completely obedient to Srila Prabhupada's desires, which means he has no argument with Srila Prabhupada's officiating acharya plan. He may have some opinion, because of the confusion, but he's not going to kick out godbrothers because of their convictions on the issue. If he can convince them otherwise by means of philosophic discussion, then fine. If he cannot, he will not cause grief to any devotee because of their belief in this issue. Pure devotion in a disciple is measured on how much he obeys Srila Prabhupada, how much he is in union with the desires and plans of Srila Prabhupada, how much he is surrendered to Lord Krishna's great devotee, Srila Prabhupada, and is not measured on how erudite or charismatic the disciple is, or how many followers he has. In
that way, if he is really surrendered to Srila Prabhupada, then he can
be loved by all devotees who understand these basic principles of obedience
to Srila Prabhupada and cooperating and not excluding others just
because of philosophic differences that cannot be demonstrated to be
incorrect. 2.
In other cases, we find that some Iskcon gurus have gotten the
realization, by Krishna’s help, that they are like the #8 class of
gurus, [madhyma
or kanistha guru]
and they become honest about it, and they advise their disciples
to take more shelter of Srila Prabhupada than themselves, in this way
they are somewhat acting like officiating acharyas. Or, they are taking
steps in that direction, saying that Srila Prabhupada is the one giving
them the real divya-jnana, and taking them back to godhead.
3.
In other cases it is the disciple who comes to the realization that his
guru is of the #8 class of guru, and such a disciple gives all respect
to his madhyma or kanistha guru, but at the same time he takes full
shelter of Srila Prabhupada as his “prominent link” in parampara.
Such disciples are already worshipping Srila Prabhupada in the daily
guru-puja that happens daily in every Iskcon temple. They take shelter
of his books and tapes. I have personal experience of seeing this
happen, many times. The
first 3 cases will get liberation eventually, if not directly.
4.
In some cases, the guru is madhyma or kanistha, but he and his disciples
still persist in thinking he is higher, often mistaking charisma and
book learning to be uttama. The disciples are still connected to Srila
Prabhupada in many ways, the daily guru-puja, reading his books, hearing
his lectures, and therefore will be liberated eventually, if and when
they take that connection seriously. This
is not the same situation as us senior devotees being connected to Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta, because we don’t have guru-puja for Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta every day like all devotees do for Srila Prabhupada. We
didn’t read Srila Bhaktisiddhanta’s books, or hear his tapes every
day either. And Srila Bhaktisiddhanta wasn’t the founder acharya of
our institution, nor did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta set up a officiating
acharya system for himself, as Srila Prabhupada did. 5.
In some cases, the new student studies the issues on his own, or hears
from older disciples, thinks for himself, and decides to directly take
initiation from Srila Prabhupada via an officiating acharya or a ritvik
acharya as described by Srila Prabhupada in his 77 statements, and thus
such a new disciple takes direct shelter of Lord Krishna’s pure
devotee without a doubt, and goes directly back to godhead. This
fulfills Srila Prabhupada’s will that his disciples are always
directors of temples. 100’s of devotees have taken this option
already. IMHO,
I believe all devotees of Iskcon are fit for liberation, and some will
take longer than others. The main obstacle that will retard or delay a
devotee’s liberation will be his making offenses to devotees, such as
new students making offenses to older Srila Prabhupada disciples. Sadly
this happens in the turmoil of guru issues and debates. If this is the
case, such devotee must beg forgiveness [to the person] for any offense
he has made to older devotees in the heat of guru issues. The same
principle holds for older devotees making offenses to gurus and grand
disciples. Premise #9- Siksa guru agents of Srila Prabhupada perpetuate the parampara. Also, Srila Prabhupada said, “We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to.” Everyone must follow the mahajanas. The original teachings of the founder-acarya of the sampradaya must be worshiped with all respect. The message of parampara is transmitted through Srila Prabhupada’s agents, or his siksa gurus, just as it is transmitted through the diksa gurus we see on the list of parampara gurus. This transmission through his agents is the same as receiving it in disciplic succession, from Lord Caitanya and from Lord Krishna. There may appear to be gaps in the parampara, but Srila Prabhupada says “we have to pick up the prominent acarya, and follow from him.” Those who are servants of the prominent acarya are agents in the chain of parampara, whether they be siksa gurus or diksa gurus. There is no difficulty in finding a guru, whether there are apparent gaps in parampara or not. The sincere person can never be without a spiritual master, even if there seems to be a gap in the parampara. Quotes - "Just as an aerial message, is transmitted from one place to another, similarly, this Guru parampara system is working. My disciples are my agents, my representatives, so by hearing it from them, you are receiving it from me. And because you are a sincere soul, those who are hearing the Mantra from you are receiving it in disciplic succession, from Lord Caitanya and from Lord Krishna." Letter to: Andrea Temple - Los Angeles 6 March, 1968 "I have heard how the new devotees are all executing their devotional services very enthusiastically and with sincerity and humility. Yes, I have asked them to take instruction from you, one of their elder Godsisters. Whatever you have learned -- you are one of the old students -- whatever you have gathered by experience, you must hand them over to the new students. This is called parampara." >Letter to: Malati -- Los Angeles 6 March, 1970 Regarding parampara system: there is nothing to wonder for big gaps. Just like we belong to the Brahma Sampradaya, so we accept it from Krishna to Brahma, Brahma to Narada, Narada to Vyasadeva, Vyasadeva to Madhva, and between Vyasadeva and Madhva there is a big gap. But it is sometimes said that Vyasadeva is still living, and Madhva was fortunate enough to meet him directly. In a similar way, we find in the Bhagavad-gita that the Gita was taught to the sungod, some millions of years ago, but Krishna has mentioned only three names in this parampara system -- namely, Vivasvan, Manu, and Iksvaku; and so these gaps do not hamper from understanding the parampara system. We have to pick up the prominent acaryas, and follow from him. There are many branches also from the parampara system, and it is not possible to record all the branches and sub-branches in the disciplic succession. We have to pick up from the authority of the acharya in whatever sampradaya we belong to. > Letter to: Dayananda -- San Francisco 12 April, 1968 One must follow the mahajanas- One should always follow the footprints of the standard Mahajan or the Acharyas recognized by all concerned. - Article by Srila Prabhupada - BTG 11/20/1958 One mahajana follows another mahajana, and by following the parampara system of mahajana activities one can become advanced in spiritual consciousness. SB 8.18.28 Where, then, is the difficulty in finding a guru? Lord Krsna directly instructed Arjuna. Arjuna is therefore tattva-darsi or guru. Arjuna accepted the Supreme Personality of Godhead (param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]). Similarly, following in the footsteps of Sri Arjuna, who is a personal devotee of the Lord, one should accept the supremacy of Lord Krsna, as supported by Vyasa, Devala, Asita, Narada and later by the acaryas Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Nimbarka and Visnu Svami and still later by the greatest acarya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Where, then, is the difficulty in finding a guru? If one is sincere he can find the guru and learn everything. One should take lessons from the guru and find out the goal of life. Maharaja Satyavrata, therefore, shows us the way of the mahajana. Mahajano yena gatah sa panthah [Cc. Madhya 17.186]. SB 8.24.53 If one does not follow in the footsteps of the real mahajanas, one's plans for happiness will be frustrated. Madhya 17.185 You cannot be without a spiritual master- Prabhupada: Spiritual master is not the question of... Spiritual master is eternal. Spiritual master is eternal. So your question is without spiritual master. Without spiritual master you cannot be, at any stage of your life. You may accept this spiritual master or that spiritual master. That is a different thing. But you have to accept. As you say that "by reading Bible," when you read Bible that means you are following the spiritual master represented by some priest or some clergyman in the line of Lord Jesus Christ. So any case, you have to follow a spiritual master. There cannot be the question without spiritual master. Is that clear? > Lecture -- Seattle, October 2, 1968 These original teachings and the founder-acarya of the sampradaya should be worshiped with all respect. One should be loyal to his conclusions and instructions, not taking teachings from others. One should take as siksa guru only a person who is following faithfully the teachings of that founder-acarya.” Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur, HC: Chapter 6 Note- Usually we only give quotes from Srila Prabhupada, but this is a very powerful quote from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and valuable instruction to all new devotees of Iskcon, to always remain loyal to Srila Prabhupada’s original teachings, and to only accept siksa from gurus who are following faithfully the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. Note- The conclusion of all these quotes may be as follows; that if the founder-acharya does not name successor diksa gurus, as explained in premise #6, it does not mean there is a stoppage or gap in the parampara. The transmission of transcendental knowledge continues through the parampara, via the siksa guru agents of the founder-acharya, and Srila Prabhupada says “we have to pick up the prominent acarya, and follow from him.” There is no question of any sincere person being without a spiritual master in any circumstance. Hare Krishna.
On the matter of the 5/28 conversation in Vrndavan, 1977. A perception can be that Srila Prabhupada introduced several new nomenclatures, which make distinctions of different gurus, actually designating some gurus as lesser gurus. We don’t mean “lesser” in the sense that they are less important in the message that they deliver. The message is absolute and therefore all gurus give the same message, and therefore they are all non-different in that aspect. Siksa and diksa gurus are non-different, in the message they give. Also there’s the distinction of kanitha, madhyam, and uttama gurus, the first two being lesser than the final. The distinction of “lesser” that we propose, lies in the area of commitment and responsibility of the personal relationship of the disciple and guru. Some gurus have less responsibility to some students, of which they give siksa to, whereas the diksa guru has complete responsibility to all of his disciples. These nomenclatures we talk of are types of gurus that Srila Prabhupada introduced to us, namely he mentioned the deputy guru, the officiating acharya guru, the ritvik acharya, and the monitor guru. This all ties into a reason why Iskcon is suffering from offenses made to Srila Prabhupada. We believe that the most major offense they made was to minimize and ignore and even ban the words “ritvik” and “officiating acharya.” The most important question to Srila Prabhupada was made to him on 5/28, a question that Srila Prabhupada describes elsewhere as the “main point” that the founder acharya can make at the time of his leaving the world. Quote- "They did not even consider common sense - that if guru maharaja had wanted to APPOINT somebody as acharya, why he did not say? He said so many things and this point he missed? THE MAIN POINT? And they insisted on it. They declared, 'Come on unfit persons to become acharya,' …. (CONV 8/15/76) So, SDG made this “main point” question to Srila Prabhupada about his plan for the future of initiations in Iskcon, and Srila Prabhupada gave his answer using the words “officiating acharya” and “ritvik.” But they have banned this word ‘ritvik’ even though Srila Prabhupada uttered this word in his answer to the “main point” question, and he wrote it in letters several times afterwards. As for the term “officiating acharya,” they completely ignore it, and do not allow any discussion of this term. This is their great offense. The fact that Iskcon leaders ignore and even ban these terms that Srila Prabhupada used, could offer an explanation as to why Iskcon has been suffering so much. The 5/28 transcription is confusing, as admitted by many devotees. This is because of the lack of Srila Prabhupada giving more information on these topics, and there are 150 tapes missing from 77, and some say that details of the ritvik discussion was lost on those missing tapes. Without Srila Prabhupada’s detailed explanation, we are forced to look at various assumptions. We will categorize the various views with two types of assumptions, first is the “educational assumption” or assumptions backed up with research and evidence. The second type is the “arbitrary assumption,” which is weak in evidence, but seems to be valid. We now examine the 5/28 conversation. There are 4 possible interpretations, or assumptions that devotees make of this conversation. The main confusion is 1. Srila Prabhupada says he will “recommend some officiating acharyas, and then 2. Srila Prabhupada says “Ritvik, yes” indicating that ritviks are equated to officiating acharyas, and then he says, 3. “He is guru, he is guru” and then Srila Prabhupada says 4. “They are his disciples” … and “his grand disciple.” On the surface, it seems that Srila Prabhupada is saying that the officiating acharya is the “guru” and the new disciples are his, and are grand disciples of Srila Prabhupada. But there are several interpretations, or assumptions of these statements which may alter this perception. The number #1 assumption is the possibility that this tape was tampered with, and spliced together from 2 different conversations, which explains the confusion. This would cause a glitch in context, jumping from the subject matter of officiating acharyas to being full gurus with their own disciples. This is an educated assumption, because tampering can factually explain the change of context, and some forensic experts said there may have been tampering. The onus is for someone to conduct a more complete investigation and prove there is splicing, and where the splices are, and so on. Number #2 assumption- Assuming that #1 is false, that there is no tampering, then some say a second alternative is that officiating acharya is an intermediate type of guru who officiates in the initiation ceremony, and takes a limited responsibility for a small number of disciples, in the sense of giving “discipline,” thus satisfying the “disciple of disciple” quote, but the main guru is Srila Prabhupada. Before an objection arises from the reader, let us give evidence that this is an “educational assumption,” although a weak one, for the following reasons. We have 4 basic functions of a diksa guru. #1, He gives pure divya-jnana, or he injects transcendental knowledge into the heart of the new disciple. #2, He gives a spiritual insurance policy to the disciple, meaning that if the disciple follows his instructions faithfully, he is guaranteed to go “back to godhead” by the spiritual power of his guru. #3. The diksa guru has complete ownership or responsibility for his disciple, he is the only one taking the disciple back to godhead. #4. The guru is the only person absorbing all the karma of disciple. We can understand that the officiating acharya or ritvik guru, being a lesser type of guru, cannot fully take the karma, cannot fully give spiritual insurance policy, cannot guarantee a ticket back to godhead, cannot claim full ownership of a disciple, and he cannot give full divya-jnana, by the very definition of the terminology of ritvik and officiating acharya. We can understand that when Srila Prabhupada introduced the terms “ritvik” and “officiating acharya,” and “monitor guru,” he meant that such terms were to designate gurus who were lesser than a full guru, who were intermediate gurus, who were “officiating” in the function of the initiation, and the real diksa uttama guru is Srila Prabhupada. So we have the #2 theory, and although a weak argument, it does have some backing evidence. We are certain that Srila Prabhupada coined these terms “ritvik” and “officiating acharya” and “monitor guru” and introduced them into our vocabulary, and introduced their meanings and definitions into our society, for a specific reason. Tamal did not originate the term “ritvik,” Srila Prabhupada did. Srila Prabhupada used these specific terms, so to separate these gurus from the distinction of being a full diksa guru, yet having some function in the initiation process, and still being a part of the disciplining process. Srila Prabhupada knew that his men were not yet mature to be full diksa gurus, or else he would proclaimed the 11 to be uttama and full diksa gurus, instead of recommending them to be officiating acharyas or ritviks. The simple fact of these different kinds of nomenclature indicates a lesser type of guru. We explore the validity of #2, because several gurus and other devotees, despite other evidence, are accepting this model. This is because they are comfortable with the term “officiating acharya” and not with the term ritvik. Ritvik is a word that’s been demonized so much, and condemned by campaign propaganda so much, that recognition of the #2 theory may be a practical step in the right direction of cessation of bitter fighting over the guru issue. For some reason the 11 were insulted by being put into a ritvik post, and so they created a philosophy against the concept of a ritvik system. When passions are soothed, then proper discussion and education will illuminate Srila Prabhupada’s tattva. Perhaps Srila Prabhupada said “disciple of disciple” because he knew that the 11 men were too ambitious to accept a title like ritvik, and gave this alternative. Getting back to the evidence for #2- In Srila Prabhupada’s book, “Easy Journey to other Planets,” Srila Prabhupada says- “He must not take on unlimited disciples. This means that a candidate who has successfully followed the first twelve items can also become a spiritual master himself, just as a student becomes a monitor in class with a limited number of disciples.” This does not necessarily mean that such a monitor guru is initiating disciples like a diksa guru. We have a concept of being a teacher in a class. Srila Prabhupada makes this distinction, that a “monitor guru,” is less than a full diksa guru, otherwise he would have said the candidate was a full diksa guru, giving initiation and full divya-jnana. He gives the example of a classroom, where the student becomes a monitor or teacher for a small number of disciples. The class is but a part of the school, which is run by the acharya. This is practically what happened in the 70’s where advanced devotees like Jayananda and Visnujana Swami and Rupanuga were like monitor gurus, like teachers in a classroom, but the disciples were still getting divya-jnana from Srila Prabhupada. That was my case, I was like a disciple of Jayananda, getting siksa and discipline from him, so I was like a “disciple of a disciple,” as Jayananda was my siksa guru, but my adi-guru, my eternal diksa guru, is Srila Prabhupada. Number #3 assumption is- Some say that “he is guru” refers to the person who initiates, the diksa guru, or Srila Prabhupada, and is not referring to the person who conducts the initiation, or the officiating acharya. “He is guru” is understood in the third person tense, meaning that “he” is Srila Prabhupada, who is the actual diksa guru, and the officiating acharya is officiating in the ceremony. Number #4 assumption is- Again, assuming there was no tampering, some say there is a sudden glitch in context, there is a sudden imperceptible change of subject matter from officiating acharya to regular guru. They say that Tamal asked a question that confused the context, which changed the context suddenly. This is an “educated assumption” for the following reasons. They say that by definition, an officiating acharya cannot have disciples, he only officiates. They say that this confusion was cleared up in the 7/9 letter, which spells out what a ritvik is, and who they are disciples of. They say that the “glitch change” accounts for the “disciple of disciple” meaning. They will be regular gurus when Srila Prabhupada orders them to be as such. This concludes in the understanding that the officiating acharya is acting as "ritvik-representative of the acarya” as said in the 7/9 letter, and the new devotees are disciples of the initiator guru, Srila Prabhupada, as said in the letter. We invite your comments, use the button found at the bottom of this page, your identity will be withheld, and use an alternate email address if you wish to withhold your identity from us.
Literal
versus Contextual Meaning Briefly,
literal vs. contextual means- 1.
The literal (or direct) meaning of an utterance is captured by
its propositional representation.
[Definition-
Propositional representation is symbolic description, more
details given below.] 2.
The contextual (or indirect) meaning depends on how the speaker
uses the utterance in a particular context.
* example-
"Were you born in a barn?"
o To
someone describing their humble beginnings.
o To
someone who just left the door open. By
usage of the above definitional template, we will examine the
possibilities of literal meanings and contextual meanings in the
conversations of which Srila Prabhupada explained what he meant by an
officiating acharya [or ritvik] program. For
example, we look at the question and answer of the 5/28/77 conversation- Satsvarupa:
Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly
at that time when you're no longer with us. We want to know how first
and second initiation would be conducted. Propositional
representations [taken from example below]- STG- *O
[then (our next question)] *
P [concerns (initiations in future)] *Q
[when no longer with us (Srila Prabhupada)] *R
[(answer) how it (initiations) will be conducted (first and second
initiation)] *
cause (O,P) *
cause (Q,R) Srila
Prabhupada - *S
[after settled up (this)] *T
[recommend (I shall, some of you)] *U
[act as (officiating acharyas)] *
cause (S,T,U) By
examination of the elements of these sentences, we find a series of
literal or direct meanings being captured by their propositional
representations. SDG is speaking literally in all elements of his
utterances, such as “next question,” and “concerns
initiations,” and “’in the future,” and “when you're no longer
with us,” and “first and second initiation” and “would be
conducted.” There are no contextual meanings found here. Contextual usually means a
metaphorical comparison to some other context, thus an indirect meaning.
The
same series of direct meanings are found in Srila Prabhupada’s answer
to the question, such as “Yes,”
and “I shall recommend some of you,” and “After this is settled
up,” and “I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating
acaryas,” which are all direct meanings captured by
propositional representations. To
try to claim some kind of indirect or contextual meanings in the
question and answer is to stretch the imagination of accepting some
assumption which is not substantiated by any kind of supporting
representation. There is no evidence for any other contextual
interpretation. Yet,
the "powers that be" want to base the whole society's
conclusion with unsubstantiated assumptions. Such assumptions may be
that they posit that Srila Prabhupada is answering the question with a
temporary plan for officiating acharyas, even though he was clearly
asked about a permanent plan for the future, wherein there is no phrase
or words to indicate any temporary plan as such. Such indirect contexts
do not exist, and therefore such a nebulous stance has wrought all this
strife and fighting, resulting in the aparadhas to so many devotees, and
ostracizing older Srila Prabhupada disciples, and retarding the growth
and stability of the movement, all over some assumed contextual meaning
in the face of blatant direct meanings. So they choose assumption over
direct meaning, and thus choosing chaos to the society over a simple and
direct understanding which could give stability to the society. I
know many devotees who are just plain and simple devotees, not word
wranglers, and they accept the direct meaning of Srila Prabhupada’s
utterance of his answer, that his answer is officiating acharyas, and
yet they are forbidden to say so, and they have to live in silence of
what they believe due to unfair prohibitions on discussions on these
matters. One
guru said, "we can't defeat the ritviks, but we know we are right,
and we know Srila Prabhupada wants us to be gurus." With this
logic, usually a "knowing"
of anything, means a cognizance of images and facts, and ideas, all
bound together in logical and progressive patterns. This entails the
ability to communicate these ideas, images, and facts to other
intelligent human beings. "Knowing we are right" means there
is some direct cognizance going on, of ideas arranged in logical
progression, and an easy flow of communication of such ideas. Being
unable to explain all the above simply means that the real idea isn’t
there in the brain. “I think, and maybe,” are not substantial
criteria for a society’s conclusion to such questions. We cannot
assume a collective conclusion without the above process of cognizance
and verbal explanation of ideas. We
assert that if Srila Prabhupada did mean a temporary officiating acharya
system, then he would have indicated at least once that he meant it to
be a temporary system, or Tamal or some devotee would have requested him
to make that clear. Many devotees have said that if someone could come
up with such evidence that he meant a temporary system, then they would
accept that conclusion and there would be no argument, but there has
never been any such evidence. On the contrary there are so many points
of evidence that points toward a future officiating acharya system,
[more points found here] and
some say with the possibility of adding regular gurus, and one not
negating the other.
We invite your comments, use the button found at the bottom of this page, your identity will be withheld, and use an alternate email address if you wish to withhold your identity from us. The following is more detail on propositional representations- Definition-
Propositional representation is symbolic description. Each
proposition consists of a set of predicates and arguments which are
represented in the form of predicate calculus: [The
subject is what (or whom) the sentence is about, while the predicate
tells something about the subject.] An
Example An
event; (X) John hit Chris with a unicycle, the unicycle broke, because
of this John started to cry, which caused Chris to be happy. A
propositional representation
* P [hit (John, Chris, unicycle)]
* Q [broke (unicycle)]
* R [cry (John)]
* S [happy (Chris)]
* Cause (Q,R)
* Cause (R,S) Each
set of predicates (words like hit, broke, cry, happy are first
order-predicates; Cause is a second-order predicate) and arguments
(often consisting of an agent/subject (e.g. John in ‘P’), a
recipient/object (e.g. Chris in ‘P’) and an instrument (e.g. the unicycle in ‘P’)) are in turn manipulated as propositions: event/statement “John hit Chris with the unicycle” is represented as proposition ‘P’. [example taken from the internet.] Comment-
Some prabhu has said that he sees neither the May 28th conversation, nor
the July 9th letter as any kind of instructions for how
things are to function after Srila Prabhupada's disappearance pastime. Response-
This has been the crux of the argument that’s been going on for 30
years, which is as follows- Do the two documents, namely the 5/28th
conversation and the 7/9 letter, do these documents constitute Srila
Prabhupada’s order for a ritvik system in Iskcon for the future?
Everyone, [Jaya-advaita Swami confirms], is in agreement that the 7/9
letter is an order for a ritvik system in Iskcon. The Iskcon management
claim is, that this order for a ritvik system was only meant to be a
temporary system. The question is – did Srila Prabhupada intend for
this ritvik system to be a temporary system? Or, did Srila Prabhupada
mean this system to be after “he is no longer with us,” for the
future? There
is a specific web page which addresses this question. This page
addresses many points, like is a future ritvik system traditional? Is it
sastric? Has it been done before? Anyone
can add comments or challenges to the contents of this web page. The url- The
one & only question- http://www.oocities.org/visoka123/visoka/One_question.htm Hare Krishna, more later Discussion #4 - Why not take initiation from Krsna, Arjuna, Srila Jiva Gosvami? Discussion # 5 - Who is the real author of the 7/9/77 letter? Discussion # 6 -The first question and answer of 5/28 is clear, but the rest is confusing, why? The companion Dipikapedia site for Srila Prabhupada quotes To make comments or challenge any point, click here- Comments
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