More discussion on premise #3-

More discussion on "law of disciplic succession" letter-

The following is a discussion concerning some letters by Srila Prabhupada about his wanting some disciples to initiate by 1975, and other matters of the guru taking karma, and so on.

Regarding this quote – “But, as a matter of etiquette, it is the custom that during the lifetime of your spiritual master you bring the prospective disciples to him, and, in his absence or disappearance, you can accept disciples without any limitation. This is the law of disciplic succession.” Letter (75-12-5/Dec. 2, 1975)

Comment- Some say that this “custom” allows the spiritual master to prevent unqualified disciples from prematurely accepting the post of diksa guru in his presence. Naïve devotees may be attracted to one of Srila Prabhupada’s disciples, and request initiation. This statement by Srila Prabhupada may be used to discourage immature new devotees taking from immature gurus [disciples of Srila Prabhupada.]

Answer- Yes, some believe this, Srila Prabhupada said this to discourage immature gurus taking some disciple who simply is attracted to a devotee without sufficient knowledge of the relationship and qualifications of gurus and disciples.

Note this letter-

‘The first thing, I warn Acyutananda, do not try to initiate. You are not in a proper position now to initiate anyone... Don’t be allured by such Maya. I am training you all to become future Spiritual Masters, but do not be in a hurry... You don’t be attracted by such cheap disciples immediately. One has to rise gradually by service... These services are most important. Don’t be allured by cheap disciples. Go on steadfastly to render service first. If you immediately become Guru, then the service activities will be stopped; and as there are many cheap gurus and cheap disciples, without any substantial knowledge, and manufacturing new sampradayas, and with service activities stopped, and all spiritual progress stopped up.’ Letter (68-8-17/Aug. 21, 1968)

Comment- Based on certain excerpts from Srila Prabhupada, some feel that Srila Prabhupada wanted to have his students become gurus who would take on disciples. And the label “diksa guru” might be used to name such gurus.

Answer- Devotees have been asking for a reference by Srila Prabhupada, to the effect of him ordering any one of his disciple, at any time before his departure, to be diksa guru, for the past 30 years. One time they made a challenge for anyone to produce a quote from SP that he ordered anyone to be a diksa guru, for a $100,000 reward. This was posted all over Vrindavan, and nobody could claim the 100 thousand.

Comment – Some devotees think that Srila Prabhupada neither appointed diksa gurus, nor created a system wherein some of his disciples would be ritviks after Srila Prabhupada’s disappearance pastime.

Answer- They may assume this, ok. On the other hand, many devotees assume that Srila Prabhupada did create a plan for ritviks, which is a reasonable assumption, when all the evidence is examined, [which is the purpose of this exposition]. Both may be called assumptions by the other side, and that is the point of the exposition, to gather the facts, map out a logical progression and synthesize all the data into a reasonable conclusion. Meanwhile, your assumption, my assumption, what the hell, anybody's assumption goes. We owe it to Srila Prabhupada to take this beyond the assumption platform. Otherwise, the ritvik assumption is just as good as theirs, so why should we fight? Just allow devotees to choose their assumption, what they think is right. Better that we come to the well-researched and educated conclusion.

Comment- Some devotees think that Srila Prabhupada wanted to his own disciples accept disciples by about 1975 or so, as evidence of the following letter excerpts show.

“By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate and increase the number of the Krsna Conscious population.”’ (SPL to Kirtanananda, 12th January, 1968)]

“Maybe by 1975 all of my disciples will be allowed to initiate and increase the number of generations. That is my program.” 1968 letter to Hansadutta

Answer- Perhaps Srila Prabhupada used the word “initiate” in 68, indicating a wish for diksa gurus by 1975. This is Srila Prabhupada’s high hopes, as he was always optimistic to reach the best position for expanding this movement, and he always said to “shoot for the Rhinoceros.” He did aspire for such gurus in 68, but it did not fructify by the time 75 came around. Therefore, he did not order such gurus, in 1975 or any time afterwards. So we can admit that he aspired for such gurus, per some private letters that never became common knowledge. We never heard any talk to that nature in 1975. Contrary to these private letters, the 7/9/77 letter was to all devotees in the world, therefore much more important, much more decisive. 7/9/77 was an actual order, it was an actual instruction, not an aspiration via some private and unheard of letter till 20 years later.

Comment – It is said in the 1968 letter to Kirtanananda, that- “By 1975, all of those who have passed all of the above examinations will be specifically empowered to initiate.

Answer- Then it should have happened. If passing an exam was the main stipulation, then this should have happened. We are certain that many disciples could have passed an exam. But obviously things had changed since this aspiration of Srila Prabhupada, because nobody was initiating at 1975 or later. We agree, it “seems” that’s what Srila Prabhupada wanted, that’s what he aspired for, but it didn’t pan out. Reality and destiny does not always conform to aspirations, even the wishes of pure devotees, because such hopes are dependant upon the spiritual advancement of his disciples, which depends on their free will.

As of 2006 we know all the history, what happened. It’s not by some mistake or cheating that they were not allowed by Srila Prabhupada to initiate 1975 onward, it just didn’t happen, because Srila Prabhupada didn’t allow it. If he allowed it, you can bet your bottom dollar that Hansadutta and Kirtanananda, and others, would be initiating like crazy in 75. Kirtanananda was already being practically worshiped as a pure devotee in New Vrindavana, by hundreds of devotees, but there’s no history of him initiating anyone pre-78.

Comment – Some devotees say that the burning up of the disciple’s karma is a core element of “initiation.” Some feel that this burning up of karma takes place during the initiation ceremony itself. They also say that this burning up of karma by the guru will no longer take place once the guru has performed his disappearance pastime.

Answer- Ok, some may feel this way, but we say, “why not?” Is there something preventing Srila Prabhupada from taking karma and burning it up for some new disciple? In fact, this is a very important point, it is much better for Srila Prabhupada to take the karma from his position in the spiritual world. How can Srila Prabhupada suffer from karma, if he’s in the spiritual world? To deny his ritvik plan, means we are forcing him to come back to this material world to rescue his errant disciples, which we can guess there are many. These same disciples can take ritvik initiation from his officiating acharyas, in the next life, and Srila Prabhupada is relieved from having to come back and save them, and suffer again.

We just heard of a devotee taking ritvik initiation in Oregon. Hundreds have taken this form of initiation. Who can say that they are not saved by Srila Prabhupada? When we meet such devotees, we are convinced that they are receiving Srila Prabhupada’s full mercy.

more discussion on "Law" letter-

In the toolbox of philosophical exposition we use the “spool of logic” tool to make sense of the many quotes of Srila Prabhupada on guru-tattva.

 Sometimes we get quote interpretations, which appear on the surface to be uniform “spools of logic.” But with close scrutiny we see they are skeins of tangled thread.

Often in the legislation arena we find that legislators try to disguise an unsavory bill by the method of annexing a “rider.”  

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia-

“In legislative practice, a rider is an additional provision annexed to a bill under the consideration of a legislature, having little connection with the subject matter of the bill. They are usually created as a tactic to pass a controversial provision which would not pass as its own bill.”

We find this method in the following example-

Some use this formula, from the “law of disciplic succession” letter-

1) “This is the law of disciplic succession."

2) “I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely”

3) “that will make me and Krishna very happy.”

4) “you can accept disciples without any limitation.”

It appears here that Srila Prabhupada is saying that he wants to see his disciples [any or all] to become diksa gurus and have unlimited disciples.

This sounds so logical at surface perception, first we are told this “is the law of disciplic succession,” ok, then #2, Srila Prabhupada wants his disciples to be gurus [siksa or diksa?], … well, ok, then #3, “that will make Lord Krishna and him very happy,” this sounds perfectly ok, and then the final point, #4, is “you can accept disciples without any limitation,” is accepted along with the first three.

It sounds so perfectly reasonable, doesn’t it? It sounds like Srila Prabhupada wants any or all disciples to be guru with unlimited disciples. This is logical only to they who do not scrutinize this closely.

This is the method of slipping in a “rider” into the whole package, and hoping that everyone will say “yes” to the first 3 points, and not notice that #4 is a “rider” which is not in context with the other points.

This is an arrangement of quotes out of context. They put the #4 line as the last point of logical progression, whereas it appears in the beginning of the letter. The context of “you” in the #4th point [unlimited disciples] is not to “all or any disciples” of Srila Prabhupada. The context is ONLY a private letter to Tusta Krishna dasa, telling him to accept disciples, only after Srila Prabhupada has left, which is the law, not that the law is that “all or any disciple[s]” can be diksa guru after Srila Prabhupada has left. The context of 2 and 3 may be applied to all disciples, and it falls in the siksa guru category, when we reference it to all of Srila Prabhupada’s quotes on this issue.

Possible objection- When Srila Prabhupada gives an instruction to one disciple, generally that instruction can hold true for all disciples. So, these 4 points could be seen as valid instructions for all disciples.

Answer- This is always possible. On the other hand, when Srila Prabhupada writes a letter to a disciple, it is a private affair in most all cases, the instruction is for him or her only, and sometimes the instructions may be for all disciples. The first we will call “circumstantial instruction.” This is the same as our #2 and #4 on the label list, restated here-

2. Appears to be universal on surface, but the context to entire history of quotes deems it to be a relative instruction, perhaps to the person in context, or different situations alter it.

4. Given to one disciple, but may not be applicable to all disciples.

The other instruction may be termed “universal instruction,” meant for all disciples, or the same as our label list #1-

1. Absolute and universal instruction for all times, all persons, all places.

The way that we can differentiate between the two types of instructions is as follows-

The “circumstantial instruction” may be applicable only to the person that Srila Prabhupada is writing a private letter to, but this may change to “universal,” when and only when, such an instruction is made again, either in Srila Prabhupada’s books, in his lectures, or in his conversations, or in other letters. If such an instruction is repeated in a more public venue, then we may deem it to be a “universal instruction.” Otherwise, once given in a private letter will generally make it a “circumstantial instruction” only to that person.

Using this formula, we look at the 4 points-

First, #1) “This is the law of disciplic succession."

Although we find only one hit in the veda-base for this phrase, still the wording and nature of the phrase deems it to be a “universal instruction,” not just to one disciple.

2) “I want to see my disciples become bonafide Spiritual Master and spread Krishna consciousness very widely”

Srila Prabhupada expressed this aspiration many times. He either wants us to spread Krsna consciousness as siksa guru, or the possible case of being diksa, only if qualified, and if he orders one to be diksa. This point is made clear in premise #5. So, of course, this is a “universal instruction.”

3) “that will make me and Krishna very happy.”

Of course, preaching Krsna consciousness either as siksa guru, or diksa guru, will always make Lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada very happy.

4) “you can accept disciples without any limitation.”

In this case, we cannot find similar statements in Srila Prabhupada’s books, lectures, or conversations, or other letters, unless I’m wrong. It brings only one hit on the veda-base, only this letter in question.

Conversely, if other statements, made by Srila Prabhupada, contradict this #4, then we are further assured that it is only a “circumstantial instruction” made only to the person the private letter is written to. This point is amply made in premise #7, with the quote- “Therefore one is generally forbidden to accept many disciples.” Madhya 22.118

Also the statement, “'Come on unfit persons to become acharya,' then another man comes, then another, then another. So better to remain a foolish person perpetually to be directed by guru maharaja. So that is perfection,” seems to contradict this idea. Also what Srila Prabhupada said in 1977 completely contradicts the idea that he wanted us to have “unlimited disciples.”

IOHO, in our opinion, Srila Prabhupada said “unlimited disciples” to Tusta Krishna in a rhetorical fashion, saying in a way, “do what you want, only after the disappearance of your guru.” At that time this was a private letter, not intended for everyone to see. We never thought that Srila Prabhupada meant this to be a “universal instruction,” for reasons given already, and just common sense that such an instruction would cause more chaos than we already have.

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