Ron Engelman: Our next guest is here- this was his home. He lived here, he studied the Bible here. And he wishes today, that he was still studying the Bible. Came out during the fire. While so many perished there. And knows he has a responsibility because he was in there during the entire, attack, siege, until the fire took place. His name is David Thibodeau and I consider David a very good friend of mine, and I'd like to introduce him right now. David? [applause]
(sigh) Good afternoon. Appears to be another windy April day. Two years ago the wind was, just as strong, if not stronger. Only it helped to fan a fire, that spread quicker than anyone could realize. Or imagine. And that fire was, fanned by the thousands and thousands of gallons of CS gas- that was pumped into that building- that permeated every structure- every piece of clothing. Every Bible. Permeated the children's nostrils. Teared their eyes. And Janet Reno said, we did this for the kids. Good job, Mrs. Reno. You did a wonderful, fine job that day.
I'd like to start off by, reading a quote. It's a quote from, uh, Crazy Horse, Lakota. "We did not ask you white men to come here. The Great Spirit gave us this country as a home. You had yours, and we did not interfere with you. The Great Spirit gave us plenty of land to live on, and buffalo, deer, antelope, and other game. But you have come here. You have taken my land from me. You are killing off our game. So it is hard for us to live. Now you tell us to work for a living. But the Great Spirit did not make us to work, but to live by hunting. You white men can work if you want to. We do not interfere with you. And again you say, why do you not become civilized? We do not want your civilization. We would live as our fathers did. And their fathers before them."
I drew a lot of parallels when I first read this. Because, we did not ask the ATF to, uh, come shooting at our building. We did not ask the helicopters to come in, shooting into the roof, the ceiling, with kids in, in the upper story. We did not ask for any of this. The Davidian community, had been out here for years and years, scores, living here peacefully, without any problems with the sheriff's department, or the Waco community. You know, maybe everybody didn't really like us out here, maybe everybody thought we were a little crazy, or wacko, or whatever. But the truth of the matter is, we never hurt anyone. When the system came in on us, in 1987 originally, before I was even here, and David Koresh was asked to stand trial, for crimes he was accused of- he in to the sheriff's department. He went in on his own accord. When ATF investigated Henry McMahon, who was a gun dealer, six months prior to the Waco raid, Henry called up David and said, "The ATF is here, Dave, and they're going through all my receipts, all my guns that I sold you, and they're asking a lot of questions about you." Koresh says, "Put them on the phone, Henry, send them all out here." Davey Aguilera was heading up that investigation. Of the ATF. "Send them on out here, they can see, any of the guns, that they have a question about. They can see, any of the, um, serial numbers, anything that they want." Davey Aguilera, stood up and went like this. That's not the way they wanted to do it. They did not want to come and work this out peacefully. OK? They wanted- they wanted- they wanted this. They wanted it. The more that I learn about this case, the more that I talk to investigators and people that are, are working hard night and day to find out what truly happened here- the more sinister it all becomes. The more I put the puzzle together- the more evil it all becomes of what truly happened here and why all these crosses are here. So needlessly. All because of politics. All because of bureaucracies. All because of people who don't have the guts, to face their deeds. They'd rather hide them in the blood and the dust of, of women and children. And people who've lived their lives revolving around God. They would rather demonize one person, because it's so much easier than to, than to, face, their own atrocities. What they have done. It's time we faced what they have done, it's time they faced it. It's time, that we get some, pressure on Congress, we get some pressure for an independent prosecutor to get on this case, to get this evidence that exists, to put in some kind of coherent form, and to get the people of America on one side, get the media on one side, and open it all up. You know? Screw this- the 911 tape, the trials in San Antonio, you know? You have a tape that the judge is saying is self-sufficient, is self-supportive, therefore we're not going to use this. No, no, no. That's not how you go about a trial. A trial, you're supposed to open up, all the evidence you have, and make a decision- about someone's life- valued upon information. But when you have a judge up there, that suppresses information, point after point- time after time- it's clearly in there doing a job, and we all allow it to be- that's not only the judge's fault, that's our fault for accepting it.
There were- People say that- the tanks, and the guns, and the ATF- had all these great weapons that were used against us. But there's another weapon that was used against us, a more important weapon, that was used in concert with the armory. And that's that videocamera, that videocamera, these eyewitness news cameras- they were used as well. Propaganda- propaganda's how they softened the blow. When they say this is not an assault, this is not an attack, and the tank goes through the door- I think a speaker said earlier, are you gonna listen to this is not an assault and believe it, or are you going to actually open your eyes and see the tank go through the damn door? A tank going through a living room, of a group of people- living in the middle of nowhere- what is that to you? That's murder. That's more than an assault. That's more than an aggressive act. That needs to be addressed. There's many, many people that, that need to be addressed on this, that are getting away with this, simply because they have a badge. Simply because, they are part of the federal government, a system that protects itself. All these media people here today, want to link this bombing, in Oklahoma to us. Hey, there's no link, guys. [cheering] We had nothing to do with that! I look around, I talk to Clive Doyle, I talk to the people who survived this- and we're shedding tears over the six kids that died today. Because we know what it's like to lose our kids. I went out to the gravesite where those people are buried- all we wanted was for our people to be buried here at Mt. Carmel. Too much to ask? Is that too much to ask? Apparently it is, because the bureaucracy here in Waco would not allow that to happen. And they looked at us, like we didn't care about our own dead! They bury 'em, in a landfill, in a pauper's grave on the other side of town, and then they show up at Clive Doyle's house, they call him on the phone, and they say, "How come you people weren't at the burial? Aren't you concerned that your own people are being buried today?" And Clive says, "What burial?" The bureaucracy, here in Waco, informed the media, and they were all there, but they neglected to inform us our own people were being buried. That's the most disgusting tactic I've ever seen in my life! Next to, next to possibly, the ATF raising the ATF flag on our flagpole. And the picture that was taken of Byron Sage posing as the building's burning behind him. Like it's some kind of trophy picture! Who's evil here? Who's demented and twisted? Who controls the press? Who controls the people?
I'm kind of getting off my point here, there's a couple of things I wanna- there's a couple of things I want to say here. Um- Clive is- that was- Clive has done- I want to publically thank Clive Doyle for all that he has done. He's the one of the few who's been here fighting here in Waco, he's stayed here. He's gone through the ropes, he's gone through the wringer. He's been at the edge a number of times. But we wouldn't be here without Clive. Could we have a round of applause for Clive Doyle? [applause]
Quickly, I'd like to address one more thing. I got a- I hate to admit this, but I bought a copy of the Waco Tribune-Herald the other day. And I read the article they had in there, and the second paragraph said, "The fire that the cult members started," OK? Has this ever been proven? I mean, yeah, it's in print everywhere, but I don't recall starting any fire, and I don't recall ever seeing anybody in there start a fire. The truth of the matter is, I don't know how this, how the fire started, but I know- I'm not stupid. I know that when you poke holes, 5x8 foot into a building, you pump CS gas, and it's highly flammable- the winds are at 40 miles an hour- you call Parkland Memorial Hospital at 6 AM and ask how many beds are available in their burn unit- the FBI, tells the coroner, to have 85 body bags available, three weeks before this happened- now, when I look at all of these events taking place, it seems to me that someone expected a damn fire! I'd like someone to look into that! Someone who's not a deceived cultist like myself.
Um, I want to read one more thing here if I could- from the Book- I thought this was, pretty interesting. I picked it up the other day, I found it in Ezekiel, Ezekiel 2.
It says here, uh, "And He said unto me, Son of Man, stand on thy feet and I will speak unto thee. And the Spirit entered me when He spake unto me and He set me on my feet, and I heard Him speak to me, and He said, son of man, I send you to the children of Israel, who are a rebellious nation that have rebelled against Me. They and their fathers trans-, transgress against me to this very day. For they are impudent children and stiff necked. I do send, I do say unto them, Thus saith the Lord, and thou shalt say unto them, thus saith the Lord God, and they, whether they will hear and whether they shall forebear, for they are a rebellious house, shall know that there has been a prophet among them. And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them; neither be afraid of their words, through briars and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among the scorpions-" read the Press Herald- "be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks-" I've had some very interesting looks when I go to town- "though they be a rebellious house, and they shall speak my words, and thou shalt speak my words unto them whether they will hear or whether they will forebear, for they are most rebellious. But thou son of man, hear what I say unto thee. Be not thou rebellious, like the rebellious house. Open thy mouth, and eat and I will give thee. And when I looked, behold a hand was set upon me, and a roll of a book was therein. And he spread it before me- and it was written within and without, and there was written, there, lamentations and mourning and woe."
So we're not to be, like the FBI. We're not to be, like the ATF. We're not to be rebellious. We're to sit there, and we're to take the scorning, and we're to take the reproach, and every prophet talks about the people of God, are basically going to be the crap of the world. They're gonna be, demonized, all these things are gonna come about, and everything's gonna fall back to their disadvantage in this world. That's why we look at spiritual things, that's why we look for perfection. Because how can you fight, that kind of evil? You can't talk to- you think you can sit down and talk to Bob Ricks and talk to him and, and make him understand, what, what you were thinking? Why you were in there? You think you can talk to some of these people in the press, that just simply don't understand, why didn't we just come out? I had one guy say, "if I were being shot at, I would come out, I don't understand, why didn't you just come out?" Well maybe if you saw, you know, your friends, Winston Blake, gunned down by the helicopters, laying in a pool of blood, maybe you would reconsider that. And maybe you wouldn't. Maybe you are so desensitized, by this government, that you would just come out into a system, that is corrupted, that is owned, by the people that have the wealth and the means. We don't have wealth and means. We don't even think we're gonna be able to keep this property, because we are so poor. And the city's telling us we need something like, fifty-thousand dollars for a septic system. And so many thousands of dollars to fix the well, that we already fixed, before they destroyed it again. But we need to pay, to keep Mt. Carmel.
Just, uh, two more things, if I may. Little story I, had in the back of my mind, that I've only related once to people. This will be the second time. After all this took place, I went back to Maine for a while. And I, uh, I went, to a little hill, that I'd just been climbing, to get away- I went with a friend of mine- kind of thinking things through. As I was climbing up this hill, this little snake, it was a baby snake probably about this big, I'd say a few inches long- slither, slithers in front of me, sees me, and darts under a log. For protection. So, I turn the log over, this little snake had nowhere to go. It looked up at me, and instead of running off, it coiled up in a defensive mode and started hissing for everything it was worth. I could have crushed that little snake. In a second. That little snake had, absolutely, no defense whatsoever. I'd just lifted the defense out from under him. But he wasn't giving up. He wasn't bowing down. He was looking at me and hissing at me for his life. We used to have that spirit in this country. We used to have the spirit of that little snake. But through the television- through our school system- through our books- through our government- we have been so desensitized to the spirit, that we don't even realize anymore what it's all about. Why the Constitution was truly written. Someone said earlier, the stories of history are important, you know. We don't even have to understa-, we don't even have to memorize the preamble of the Constitution in our school system. Kids don't even have to know these. We don't have to know what the Constitution is all about anymore. Don't worry about it, guys, watch- go to your football games, watch your TV, let us take care of you. You know. Big Brother, we're doing a good job, don't worry about any of that stuff. Don't, don't use your mind. But remember: when they come to your door, are you gonna be- are you going to have the spirit of that snake, are you going to fight? Or are you just going to let them roll you over? That- I don't ever want to see this happen again. I don't ever want to see people rolled over. Especially, people that I love, and care for. Because, I've been all over this country- I've talked to a lot of the survivors- I've talked to a lot of their families- and there's some people- they can't even get it together to come to something like this. They're in pain every single day of their lives. And Janet Reno, Bill Clinton, the FBI, the ATF- they do not care. If they had it their way, they would pour more salt in the wound. And that, that is a tragedy.
One more thing, I had a poem here, written for, uh, Serenity Sea. I went to the graveyard, and I saw- Michelle Thibodeau- on, on the gravestone the other day. And, uh- I can't describe to you all what that was like for me. This is what that was like for me. This downpour. And I don't ever want any of you to have to go through that.
This is a
poem that was written for Serenity, a little girl- my little girl- that
I helped take care of, and bring up. It was written by a, a woman named
Starla, Starla Whitner. That has some spiritual tie all the way through
this.
And now I lay me down to sleep
I pray the Lord my soul to keep
If I should die before I wake
I pray the Lord my soul to takeWith long brown hair and big brown eyes,
You were telling us your last goodbyes
Within minutes you vanished through the blaze
We could not see you in the hazeBack to heaven you did go
Because God said it would be so
To become his little angel in the sky
For your sweet spirit did not dieYou are here, still stuck in our hearts
That's where God's love, that's where God's love always starts
Someday we will all see you again
Because you are a lovely girl without sin
And I'd
like to end tonight- this afternoon- with this Psalm. Probably the most
appropriate Psalm I've ever come across. Psalms 116.
"I love the Lord because he hath heard my voice, my supplications. Because he hath inclined his ear unto me. Therefore will I call upon him as long as I live.
"The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me. I found trouble and sorrow.
"Then called I, upon the name of the Lord. O Lord, I beseech thee, deliver my soul.
"Gracious is the Lord, and righteous, yea; our Lord is merciful.
"The Lord preserveth the simple. I was brought low, and he helped me.
"Return unto thy rest, O my soul, for the Lord hath dealt bountifully with thee. For thou hast delivered my soul from death, mine eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. I will walk before the Lord in the land of the living. I believed, therefore have I spoken; I was greatly afflicted. I said in my haste, all men are liars. What shall I render, unto the Lord for all his benefits toward me?
"I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the Lord. I will pay my vows unto the Lord, now in the presence of all his people.
"Precious, in the sight of the Lord, is the death, of his saints." Thank you. [applause]
NEXT SPEAKER: Clive Doyle
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version:11/21/00