It has 40 authors from every walk of life including kings, peasants, philosophers, fishermen, poets, statesmen, scholars.

Moses, a political leader, trained in the universities of Egypt.

Peter, a fisherman. Amos, a herdsman Joshua, a military general Nehemiah, a cupbearer Daniel, a prime minister Luke, a doctor Solomon, a king Matthew, a tax collector Paul, a rabbi. ....Alexander the Great (6th century BC -- 4th century BC). Greek: New Testament language. Was the international language at the time of Christ. Its subject matter includes hundreds of controversial subjects.

Was the international language at the time of Christ.

A controversial subject is one which would create opposing opinions when mentioned or discussed.

There is one unfolding story: "God's redemption of man."

"So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

God says that his ways are not our ways.

Go to a high school baseball or softball game. Those players are all paid the same, and they can become very competitive

I make these arguments to say this: A player plays for the love of the game, not for the money. A Christian must server God for his love of God, not for any promises in the afterlife.

The worst players can only say, "I make this money, because the baseball-club owner is a generous man.

" Eph 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."

This is the reason that all Christians receive the same prize. So that we all may point to the one who won the game, Jesus Christ.

It is my prayer VijaiSingh that you will see that God is not being unjust by giving us all the same,

he is being gracious by giving us all more than we deserve.

Good logic was used

however I've got to warn you Vij is playing with a set of rules that cannot be placed within a logical setting.

His faith lies in some sort of form of yoga, and a mythical religion based on a herarchy rather than a higher arch theory.

Hope he responds to ya, cause I'd like to see just how he intends to explain away good logic.

Vij, I'm back! Ha, I bet you thought I wouldn't be back out, but don't scratch my name off just yet!

What is this about pain and misery. I've got to laugh, my 11 year old son is asking about eternity and how boring it would be.

Of course I can straighten him out easier than I can you.

He understands God's divine power and the gift of joy.

You understand only that Christians claims of a sovereign God,

yet find little comfort within your own reasoning to receive His joy.

but I am overwelmed by something you wrote Vej that truly needs clarification.

However, this is not what the Bible teaches. All must receive God's grace in that they must believe in the promise and act on it.

However, rewards are many via "Blessings" when looking for gratuities.

I might say from my own personal experience, the satisfaction and completeness I sense when working with our God and obeying His authority.

Yet, I... through the grace and compassion of our Heavenly Father know this joy now.

Hello Kathy - March 08, 1999
Hello Vj, sorry about that post, I must have had some inner frustration left over from a email correspondence that requires I be slightly less than cordial.

Can you tell me if there is any similarities, it would be very helpful to me.

I "personally" know dozens of people including myself who are constantly giving up the "entertainment, money and whatever makes you feel good" in order to do what is right in the sight of God.

"The true love of Abraham impregnating his housemaid and Lot impregnating is two daughters. Any God who love such putrid characters is no less evil than they are."
That's a typical humanistic response which only associates love with sex. I'm not talking about populating the earth or reproduction, I'm talking about true love.

These so-called religions are just the perversions of what should be a true relationship with the one and only God.

However when the child places themself as an equal to the parent then it is chaos. . It builds jealousy and anger and sometimes even hate.

Why are you acting so dense? This was an analogy between man and God, not an analogy between man and satan.

No. I was referring to you.

"Vj-The dark age of the Christian church does not speak of such love. Isn't it possible that what it failed to do in the beginning it may not realize in the end also?"
Just another example of satan perverting religion in which you are focused rather than focusing on the relationship with God.

What was done can not be excused but the person who is responsible for such things can be forgiven.

Moses murdered Egyptians, Saul (Paul) murdered Christians, and Abraham attempted murder on his own son. But all were forgiven.

"Any God that look forward for such edification would be worst than Hitler which is of course reminiscent of the Biblical God, who committed adultery, incest and murder."
God never did those things.

Can the ignorant call the ignorant, ignorant? ......Don't confuse reward with salvation.

MOSES was redeemed and he brought millions of his people out of slavery because of it. The incentive is the love and relationship with God.

Once again you are taking something from the sin of man and blaming it on God. Man's sin caused the fall of the "church." Sin was introduced by satan.

But yet... God would forgive even you.

"Vj-The wise need no forgiveness since truth by His wisdom is the way to salvation."
Well I was talking about you.

Those who are in regions are our responsibility to reach with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Perhaps it's you who thinks that you are a god... you're certainly selfish and jealous.

Please feel free to point that out to me any time you wish

My only defense is simply to let this go and try to be a better Christian in the future.

It would please me with much delight if you help me with this.

Now Vj, do I read a sentence of cynicism in your statement. I thought we had gotten past this kind of intimidation and moved onto something of more essence

Why don't you amuse my arrogance and comply.

Exactly what philosophers are you speaking or at least clue me in on the time period.

So if Plato has some influence on your sect of religion that would make your claim that your religion was originated much latter than you earlier suggested.

Yours, that you claim has very little history, and so I might find something useful in something closely related. So please do answer!

And this kind of remark leads me to wonder if you have some kind of axes to grind with those who claim the Holy Bible as the word of God.

What I'm getting at VJ, is your intro on this board is to Challenge a Christian to re-think his/her position.

However, what I am getting from you on this remark is not at all this, but a person targeting a group of individuals with a vendetta. And this vendetta is tainted with ugly innuendoes that I presume are clearly to inject anger to the reader.

Wouldn't a little session on your yoga mat make a better way of venting, rather than seeking out whipping posts?

the value given within the writings of the Holy Bible have more effect on me than a sect unknown to anyone except an elite few.

You see, using reasoning I can establish with very little research at all that your claim to the ultimate search and find, hasn't at all provided security of knowledge

You only claim it has the answers that humankind have searched for, yet where is the evidence to back up this claim?

When I seek advice, I can read it within the writings of the Holy Scriptures.

But where can one seek advice from your claim?

Do the cockroaches crawl next to your yoga mat and whisper words of wisdom as you sit in this most uncomfortable position and hum a few dog dreaming sounds through you nasal passages?

I who have managed to elude myself and try to work this out, have now become wasted effort?

Perhaps it is not I who you have wasted but the message you wish to share.

My reasoning on this is simple in that you target those, to explain how, they have come to know God and wish to share those thought with the one, who at first glance appears to be confused about the actions of God.

However, when that first meeting occurs your prejudice starts to show it's unfortunate trait.

Tell me VJ, isn't yoga enough for you?

Perhaps sitting in that uncomfortable position has left you with a cranky disposition.

However, you summand Christian to ask, so what does that make your aptitude?

what are you saying here Vj? Are you saying you have been stricken with a stroke? Is that how you can estimate this persons life so easily?

and just moments ago, I was wasted effort.

Doesn't your way of seeking truth have absolutes in them?

How can you say at first I have wasted your efforts, and then change the clause to read the contrary?

Perhaps your sect of religion has as many questions to answer as you claim Christianity does.

Although I could at this time point out to you the other side of the coin on all these biblical characters you have just mentioned,

I'm thinking instead I should ask, where are the heroes of your religious sect?

Yoga in Mayfair or Fifth Avenue, or in any other place which is on the telephone, is a spiritual fake.

How can I relate to an almost unheard of "true religion" when there is no recorded history to answer any claims to?

If someone is going to make claims that are life changing, I want to have the ability to examine it for myself.

PS
If you find this part interesting let me know and I will send you the other half later.

I have read a great number of your posts. About the only thing I have to say is that simply because a Christian has a different point of view does not mean that their reasoning is in any way defective but works off different principles of reasoning than yours.

You are simply coming from your own paradigm. It does not necessarily make your arguement reasonable or even intelligent.

Now, I could go into a sparring match of apologetics with you but this would be friutless in any case since one will not change the others mind or reasoning.

If we do not have moral absolutes then we are totaly & irrevocably lost. ...In my oppinion you defeat your own arguement my friend.

Hello Kathy - March 10, 1999
Vj, Psalms51 has made some very good points.

One's that I have tried to relate to you, however mine took a much longer route.

than continue on in struggle with arguments that only lead to further more arguments.

Unless, what you are truly asking for is to be convinced!

This is what I am waiting out for

I am committed and remain steady in my way of thinking.

And I have reasonings to back up my faith.

"hourse feathers?" gee, I wish I thought of that one.

Hello Rseigler - March 10, 1999
Simple. The time from the Exodus to the end of the Old Testament is approximately 950 years. That’s a lot of history for one book.

"Revelation is a communication of something which the person to whom the thing is revealed did not know before. For if I have done, a thing, or seen it done, it needs no Revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write. Revelation therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the Bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word Revelation and therefore is not the Word of God." Thomas Paine.

While the history itself may not be a Revelation, the actual instructions were, and therefore the whole object becomes one. Basic set mathmatics, kids.

The vineyard owner = The Baseball Club owner. The people that worked the longest = The best players. The people that worked the shortest = The worst players. If that is not enough to explain it, then I am sorry, but I’m not doing any more than that.

I have a problem with your example above.

They don’t have five years. They don’t have two years. They have 24 hours. If they don’t get it done, we shoot them both.

The Bible says that NO ONE is perfect enough for God. +

God had to come down and do it himself

I will say this, that there are several possible answers to this that would remove the conflict.

Horse feathers!!!!

I say that there are NONE who make it to the professional level who do not love their game.

Is your "diligent individual effort" good enough to play on God’s league? I suggest that you think about this very carefully before you answer.

And God said" and there was. Can your arguments create something out of nothing?

So when you die, and you stand before God, and he ask "Why should I let you into my heaven?" what works from your life will you point to?

If no one’s works are good enough to get them into heaven, then all they have is grace. And who should grace be given to? The one who ask for it, or the one who rejects it?

If I have been freed from something (and the Bible says that I have) then why should I want to go back to my chains?

You ask me how it is fair that the priest and the killer-rapist should get the same. It is fair because they both should die.

There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

The best answer I can give is to say that death is death.

Both the priest and the murderer are condemned to death for their sin.

What should it matter that one is condemned for the "little" and the other for the "large"? Both will die in the end.

This is not about the priest or the murderer, but it’s about God.

It matter not which one I am, for his grace covers me.

And in God’s eye we can all become his children.

I’m going to pray that God will open your eyes to see the things

That you will see that he died for you so that you too join the priest and killer with God in heaven.

By the questions we pose, Ourselves we deceive. So limited in thought By what we choose to perceive...

Hello Kathy - March 11, 1999
Don't let Vj's objections fool you into thinking it was wasted effort. His goal is to place doubt just as the professor in your post.

Yet, because Vj protest means something within your post made his claim less acceptable, and now he will go onto make you defend your position even further.

A camouflage for his own doubts, in my humble opinion.

While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

A magician is a cheap side show compared to the incredible power of God.

Even Einstein was able to prove that you can destroy matter to create energy and visa versa.

Of course God can save a man from execution. But how much more powerful would God be to allow that man to die, and then bring him back to life? Which would show God’s power more?

Having been saved from the burning building, should I turn around and run right back into it?

Should I show contempt for my rescuer?

you declare that because I have not included it, it must be stupid.

and instead are resorting to name calling.

"See! All Christians are hypocrites."

but instead continue to pray for you.

You gave us a quote to chew on, so now I present one for you:

for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them,

Vj, if you truly wish to understand the things of God, then do not ask me, or any other man, but ask God for understanding. God is just. God is kind. God is listening. He will answer, if you ask and listen.

You will have good days and bad days, just like the rest of us, but surly as time goes by your life will become worse and worse. You will begin to hate each day because you will come to realize that you have no hope.

And I know that this pray will be answered, because right now I call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus Christ, and God is very jealous of his name and he will uphold those who call upon his name.

But I am not praying this just to spite you, but instead in the hope that you will understand that indeed God does listen to his people.

And to stop this, all you have to do is ask God into your heart.

Ask him to save you from your own intelligence which has not given you wisdom, but foolishness.

Ask Jesus to save you from your sins, and I can promise you a peace that you can not find anywhere else.

I'll check back on this board periodically to see how you are doing Vj.

P.S.
Here is the answer to his prayer. I knew he was going to disappear when I threw in the Muslim revelation.

The cause for what?

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, [6] because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.").

In the final analysis, under such a view, people are saved by their works, but the New Testament emphatically states that men are not saved by works.

that Jesus was also God, God come in the flesh,

You know, I keep seeing this patern of yours that has some very questionable concerns.

It seems you are inclind to respond to almost all of my statements.

Almost as if there is a duty or discipline behind the action.

I have the strength of Jesus Christ at my side.

Why don't you amuse my arrogance and comply.

Kathy Responds: please forgive me for simply stating "no comment."

time has run out for me at present, and although I have some research to share with you on your question, I have spent as much time as I can on the beginning of this post, so perhaps I might reply at another time.

I thought yoga was a form of meditation that makes a person seek out being a better kind of human being.

Does this mean Vj you need more time on your mat?

What happened to the "I am better than you in every way possible" attributes you possess

Or maybe those little insects that crawl around next to your mat slipped a few negative messages into your thoughts while your eyes were closed

I know you must have something other than yourself to blame here and that is why I bring up the insects.

They are perhaps the science, nature that you seem to always include are a part of your special message .

so is my word that goes out from my mouth

That makes you what Vj?

Which one of the God's of the Greek time are you claiming to be?

Vj don't look now, because the truth sometimes hurts when facing it,

but if you do you might see that makes yours just as false as the claim you are making on Christianity.

yes I know that now Vj, your yoga takes good care of you.

So you say, but then you can say anything you like because how can someone challenge it?

There is nothing to substantiate your claim and therefore nothing to examine.

Wait a minute here, this is the first I have heard that your sect of religion has a market on healing and or promises a perfect life!

Is that why you have made this testimony.

Perhaps you might consider writing a short gospel.

With your special wisdom and healing powers I am certain the Pope would make you a saint before you die!

And because I have your word on it, we can just wipe out all those messy illnesses that plague humankind.

Never mind healing the planet or even just the atmosphere, lets just keep this to ourselves

yes I suppose I did say that (of yoga). But how do I keep those nasty bugs out of it?

How can I know that the voice I might hear during a yoga sitting isn't one coming from a few bugs?

As I see it, there is no confirmation at all! I would blindly follow only what you say is logic, but how does one attest to what is logical or not when there is no absolutes to follow.

I could go into a yoga sitting and come out saying anything I wish, such as I am Princes Diana reincarnated [even though I am much older and not at all as pretty] and now that I'm back I've decided to take the United States into my realm and create a "New" world class of people. Perhaps I would have some of your very own attributes VJ, I could say anyone carrying a wallet in his right pocket can't possibly have logic enough to sustain themselves so they must be banished into the deep dark alleys of New York for all time. Can yoga really do this for me?

No Vj you are wrong, sadly I must say that you have as many like you understood the Bibles teachings but without clearly reading them yourself have taken what someone has taught you and made a case against it

If you had read the Bible yourself you would know it's purpose is to inform those reading it that salvation and knowing God the creator written about in Genesis is in fact open to all humankind.

From the beginning until the time chosen by God, we are accepted into His realm.

You have a misguided view point VJ, but because you seek out Christians you have acknowledge to those persons your truest desire is to know the truth.

You in fact are asking for a argument that would change your life and not as you say to change others.

It is very clear to me, the Holy Spirit that draws all spirits closer to God, is asking you there as well.

I believe that, whereas all can come to salvation, there will be greater rewards for some than others.

Those rewards are the "perks" so to speak, in heaven.

Hello Tennwalkr - March 13, 1999
There is only one comment I would make at this time and that is:

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: For whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Galations 6:7

Hello Christ1 - March 13, 1999
Vj ~ An excellent analysis of the existence of God. I have no doubt of His existence either, but the weak performances of the Christian God, violating His own attributes and the immutable laws of nature, create a lot of doubts.

The Bible alone and in it's entirety is The Word of God!

By the questions we pose, Ourselves we deceive. So limited in thought By what we choose to perceive...

First of all, it is true that mere logic shows only what is possible or impossible. We know by logic, that square circles are impossible.

We know also that something can exist, since no contradiction is involved in claiming something exists.

So, while mere logic cannot prove the existence of anything, we have undeniable acknowledge that something exists.

Then logic can help us to determine whether it is finite or infinite.

Therefore, mere logic cannot prove the existence of anything.

Because God is Spirit, conclusions about the ultimate beginnings of the universe need to be drawn from the created world and God's actions within it.

Here in the created world, the evidence for God's "eternal power and Godhead (divine nature)" is so overwhelming that belief in Him is the only reasonable option.

While some aspects of God's nature--for example, His holiness and love--have been obscured by the Fall.

It is disbelief in God's existence and power that is irrational, not belief.

To assume that the universe is just a cosmic accident goes against the grain of everything we experience.

Everything that we have ever encountered with our senses has a cause -- why not the universe?

The eternal God is transcendent, not part of creation.

God's existence cannot be "proven" in the way that science can prove or disprove a fact about the material world.

We are spiritual beings, created in God's image, aware of our own existence, and capable of choice.

If we choose to believe that there is no God and that the universe is just a fantastically complex accident, our choice will inevitably lead to the conclusion that life is absurd and without meaning.

To live without meaning is a hopeless struggle at best, and always ends in despair.

To summarize: A typical formulation of the argument. The universe manifests evidence of design. All design demands a designer (which entails x, y, and z characteristics). Therefore, the universe must have a designer.

This designer is the God of the Bible.

This has to do with the "burden of proof" issue: namely, that the Christian need show no more proof for his position than anyone else.

It is even possible that the presuppositions are not clear to the one that holds them.

Everyone does have certain presuppositions, no matter what their world view.

as far as I can calculate the "Vedas" is a religious sect out dated by Hinduism.

The only part of this sect that remains is some ancient hymns.

That leads me to ask, is there a site online that has printed these hymns for others to view?

OM RITANCHA SAT-YANCHAA BHEED DHAAT-TAPASO 'DHYA-JAAYATA TATO RAATR-YA-JAAYAA TATAH SAMUDRO ARNAVAH.

By God's comand His nature brought to light The principles and the atoms of this earth, Then came chaos and heat and motion bright, And then the waves of ocean got their birth.

Further, what is in these hymns that could possibly be of so much importance. Do they record the times of beginning? If not, what do they record? Where are these hymns recorded, what part of the world? What time frame? How are they recorded, via chisel and stone or papyrus? Who took the incentive to record them? Are there commentaries on these hymns

Is there any scientific evidence to back up the dating and authenticity? Are there any archeological findings that have preserved the true origin of this sect? Further, please don't give me web site addresses to information that includes chanting. I'm only interested in facts, preaching is not a criteria.

For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

Revelation is a communication of something which the person to whom the thing is revealed did not know before. For if I have done, a thing, or seen it done, it needs no Revelation to tell me, I have done or seen it done nor enable me to tell it or write. Revelation therefore cannot be applied to anything done upon earth, of which man is himself actor or witness and consequently all the historical part of the Bible which is almost the whole of it, is not within the meaning and compass of the word Revelation and therefore is not the Word of God." Thomas Paine

Sorrow is better than laughter, because a sad face is good for the heart.

The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning,

In this meaningless life of mine I have seen both of these: a righteous man perishing in his righteousness, and a wicked man living long in his wickedness.

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.

Whatever wisdom may be, it is far off and most profound-- who can discover it?

Who can straighten what he has made crooked?

Do not be quickly provoked in your spirit, for anger resides in the lap of fools.

Wisdom, like an inheritance, is a good thing and benefits those who see the sun.