Responses:
Dialogue 21
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Hello syedi1
Islam is growing for your own good ok.
Vj ~ I don't really see how, when more and more Muslims are lining up to declare "fatwa" and "Jihad" against us.Hello 1Aswani
Islam is growing...like mushrooms grows in dung. Webfaith, I think you are way too brainwashed for your own good.
Vj ~ Why not tell them of your religion before condemning theirs? Or perhaps, you are also brainwashed and do not have the courage to defend it.
Seriously, have you even read the Koran? I have. I then proceeded to use it as toilet paper to clean my ass.
Vj ~ Little good would that do when the pages are already contaminated with filth.
I now know why mohamadens need 5 wives. One mohamaden women (if you can call her that) is so butt ugly, that it takes 5 of them to make one decent woman. If I had a mohamadan wife, I would be sure to cover her butt ugly face in purdha.
Vj ~ The women of Islam are innocent victims of a faith that has virtually enslaved them from the very inception of Islam and until now they are abused and murdered (honor killings). Even the men's paradise offer nothing of reward for them but sex symbols and slaves (72 for one man). These poor innocent souls really have no choice but to submit under such barbaric conditions. It is highly prejudicial of you to accuse them the way you do, for no fault of their own. If you must, attack the villains (Allah, Muhammad, etc.) who are responsible for their miserable plights and not them. No garden is perfect my friend, there will always be parasites to tend to. Hello syedi1
singhvj islam is fastest growing religion in the world and usa, because of truth, hindu religion is not, sad news for you, truth trumph,false die,islam ki jai
Vj ~ Prostitution is also growing at an alarming rate, perhaps the pimps and Muhammad, with nine wives and twenty-three concubines of his own, seem to have one common goal.
It doesn't end here, but continues in Paradise with 72 virgins 28 young boys allotted to each man.Vedic Dharma conforms with natural laws, where all things created must decay from its purest state, that truth (righteousness) which was universal (many) in the beginning can only be individual (few) in the end. It simply means that untruth is universal while truth is scarce like a drop of water.
Dialogue 22
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Hello syedi1
i love to see islam is grow do you
Vj ~ In a way I do, it means more pigs (reincarnated souls of Muslims) for Jews and Christians Hello Perazzishooter
After a PhD in Phyics from Princeton, he was a scientist at NASA for many years. He also has an LLB from NYU Law School. I would think, short of Cal Tech, Princeton is about the best academic institutions for the study of Physics in the US. The academic standards are fairly rigorous.
Vj ~ Isn't it a pitiful state to be in, when even a man (Mr. Hart) with PhD in physics, don't know that wine or honey and especially milk can never flow in a river? It is even a graver travesty to human intelligence to praise an illiterate man (Muhammad), for leading so many to believe that it can happen. You are only showing your true colors by making such statements without critically reading the book or knowing anything about his reasoning.
Vj ~ Having a Phd doesn't mean one can reason, there are Phds' praising other prophets of Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity also. Man's reasoning needs to be guided by the correct knowledge which must be in harmony with all sciences and conforms with natural laws. However, that is not surprising since premature judgment [prejudice] is your specialty.
Vj ~ Prejudice is condemning without reasonable actions of propagating something better to foster peace and universal harmony.
You cannot strip things away from him by making up lies. You can only try slinging mud at him.
Vj ~ Muhammad has mud-slinged himself, his immoral conduct (many wives including his daughter-in-law, a child and concubines) is his own doing and his Q'uran, which is full of promises for those who follow, are all lies and a breach to natural laws.
What is truly unfortunate is that a man like you can slander the Prophet of God and not feel guilt.
Vj ~ He was neither a messenger nor Allah a god since both were ignorant to begin with. Again, your illiterate Prophet was lustful, pedophilic, polygamist and murderer and would have been considered a criminal in today's criminal system of justice. This means the Q'uran had no good purpose then as it is now and it is leading millions into further pain and misery. Any one who feels guilt or pity for such an illiterate and vulgar man is totally void of simple common sense.
Why dont you post the verse from the Quraan that says these things?
Vj ~ What difference would it make if you believe 72 virgins and rivers of milk, honey and wine awaits you in paradise. After all, if the Quraan is such a pathetic text, then this disgusting thing would be mentioned in it.
Vj ~ If those who follow are themselves "disgusting", how is possible for them to realize what is pathetic? A muslim who lusts for four or more wives in this life and look forward for 72 more after, couldn't possible see Muhammad's fault. It would benefit you a great deal to exercise your brains (intellect) by doing some study of my SITE only if it is to validate Islam. Hello syedi1
singhvj HE HE HE ISLAM IS GROWING PULL YOUR HAIR HE HE HE!
Vj ~ Islam and prostitution must have one common ground, they are "GROWING" together. As a matter of fact, it is difficult to tell the difference since Islam also permits sex with more than one woman.
POOR RoLaAus DO YOU HAVE SOME OTHER QUESTION?
Vj ~ Why, is the first one too difficult for your static brain head? I CAN'T HELP IT I HAVE TO SAY ISLAM IS GROWING WHAT A RELIEF!!
Vj ~ Wait till you find out that there is no such place as paradise you'd probably wish you were never born. As I mentioned earlier, "ISLAM IS GROWING" there could be a lot of problems for Allah by the end of creation the population of the Muslim males could be well over several billion (let's say 1 billion for now). When each of them are rewarded with 72 virgins and 28 young boys, it would mean that paradise would have a population well over 72 billion virgins and 28 billion young boys alone. I wonder how will Allah be able to maintain order when he is having problems with just over a billion on earth?
Dialogue 23
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Hello web19faith
so what..! Singhvj has hundreds of brothers and sisters who call him "dad".. RoLaAus too, but his brothers and sisters call him "mama" cus he has big boobs.. He..He..He..the holyshit couple singhvj and rolaAss finally found each other and got together..happy honeymoon
Vj ~ Here this little piece should make you happier -
Islam, Sex and Animals an Eye-opener Re: Islamic Paradise (Humor) copied from soc.culture.indian at remrq.com posted by momin:
- Conviction of adultery in a islamic court depends entirely on the testimony of four male witnesses or eight female witnesses. Or the accused woman can condemn herself by admitting that she actually committed the criminal act.
- According to the Iranian law, a man is required to perform ritualistic washings away of impurities as in a religious rite (abulation), if he ejaculates while having sex with a animal.
- The law in many islamic countries reads, " After having sexual relations with a lamb, it is mortal sin to eat its flesh."
- In Oman, if a man has sex with a camel, a cow or a ewe, the law says that the animal's milk becomes impure and is no longer suitable for human consumption. The law requires the animal to be immediately killed and burned. The owner who sodomized the beast is required to pay its owner the dead animal's full market value.
- In Lebanon, only men are legally allowed to have sex with animals providing the animal is a female. The man faces death penalty if caught in act with a male animal. A woman faces execution if found fornication with an animal-wild or domesticated.
- In Iran, the law states that sex with wild animals is not recommended-especially with a lioness. Sex is only allowed with domesticated animals such as dogs, cats, donkeys, lambs and yes, of all things, pigeons.
- Sodomy is commonplace in middle east.
- In Iran, the law declares that if a man's penis fully penetrates another man's anus, abulation is also necessary, but this time for both parties to the sex act.
- In Kuwait, a married man cannot look at a female "in a sensual manner". Nor can a married man look lustfully at a female statue or a female animal.
- World Muslim League rules that "birth control was invented by enemies of Islam." Therefore, in Saudi Arabia, anyone caught smuggling condoms or other contraceptive devices including birth control pills into the country is punished with a term of six months in prison.
- In Bahrain, if a doctor must touch a woman's genitalia for medical reasons, he must not look directly at her genitals, He may do this only by seeing their reflections in a mirror.
- A married man in Iran can legally sodomize the son, brother or father of his wife while his spouse can do nothing to stop this. The marriage nonetheless becomes void.
- In Egypt, the laws prohibit a woman from belly dancing unless her navel is covered by a gauze. Technically, she can belly dance in nude providing the belly button is covered.
- In Doha, Qatar, a naked Muslim woman if surprised by a man during bathing or dressing is by law commanded first to cover her face, not her body.
- In Iraq, women are required to bathe immediately after sex and not leave the room in which they had sex. The punishment for breaking the rule is thirty lashes.
- According to Muslim law the sister, daughter or mother of the man who was sodomized can never marry the sodomite even when the act of sodomy took place when the two men hadn't reached puberty.
- Eating the meat of donkeys, horses or mules is against the law if the animal when alive was sodomized by a Muslim man. If this transpired, the animal must immediately be taken outside the city and sold.
- When a Muslim husband becomes aroused by another woman and then makes love to his own wife, it is illegal for him to pray if he perspired during this session, But if he made love to his wife and then made love to the other woman, he can legally pray even though he may still be perspiring.
- A Muslim man can not marry a woman who was breast-fed as a baby by his grand mother or mother.
- No Muslim wife may refuse or even ignore her husband's sexual advances. If she is guilty of this, she cant legally ask for food, clothing or a place to live with him.
Dialogue 24
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Hello syedi1
RAT IS BACK BUT WHERE IS Vijai Singh. RAT
Vj ~ Since the sole purpose of Islam is to degrade women (4 or more wives on earth and 72 virgins in Paradise) even a "RAT" of good conscience feels compelled to try and save them from such horrible conditions. Hello Perazzishooter
Drink lots of it, so you don’t have to be bothered by intelligent thought or rationality all week.
Vj ~ How could you even speak of "intelligent thought or rationality" when you are sitting on your brains? It can only be those who constantly sitting on their brains that would follow the intolerable teachings (Q'uran) of an illiterate adulterer, murderer and polygamist. To begin with, what intelligence is there, coming from a 54 year-old married man, supposedly to a messenger of God, having sexual intercourse with a nine year-old child (Aisha)? Abu Dawud's Hadith is the third most respected Hadith in Islam. From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years.") “He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old.". Hello rolaaus
parrazshitter, you are self contradictory!
Vj ~ If Islam also self "contradictory" or oppose Christianity, isn't Christianity just as false for the same reason, when it oppposes Judaism?
I sincerely hope that this has dispelled some common myths that almost everyone has about Islam. Islam is not a religion of terror, blood or hatred of its women, but a thoughtful, peaceful, modest religion that gets you closer to our Creator, Allah.
Vj ~ Furthermore had the Muhammad had any respect for women, he would have loved one and encourage others to do the same instead of many causing jealousy, etc.
Hello xianzebala (stinkvj)
Hey, Singh vj (for vedic jerk)
Vj ~ This is what the Hindus will think of you too since we both laid criticism on their religion.
Is your mother going to franchise her speciality "BURGER SHIT" allover india ?..
Vj ~ Aren't you Muslims ever lucky, it is going to be all Halal too.
If your father knew that he would get a shit head rat like you, he would've settled for a blow job..
Vj ~ I don't think so, it was he who told me of the epileptic illiterate child-molestor Muhammad.
Tell me, why did the doctor slap your mother when you were born?..
Vj ~ Perhaps he was Muslim who knew she gave birth to one who intended to expose the filth of a prophet name Muhammad.
Hey, scumbag asshole, is there anything you're doing in your lousy life other than exposing your mental retardation on the net?
Vj ~ Why do I need to do anything else when I enjoy being a "scumbag asshole"?
get lost asshole you and your vedic shit, if someone wants to talk to you, he would've farted instead..he he..
Vj ~ You are genius, there aren't many muslims who would laugh after an 'infidel' has blahphemed your illiterate prophet. Conversion occurs among all religions and it would take a complete idiot to use it as a necessary proof of true religion. Again I am indeed happy to know that Muslims can think even a little to see the faults of Hinduism which I also have laid criticism to. It is indeed the only way to ascertain truth from falsehood. Now all they have to do is apply the same reasoning to the faults of ISLAM and before they know it, the only choice left is the One true religion of the Vedas. If the latter do not occur at any time soon or later, then know that pain and misery will follow them forever.
THE AYURVEDIC MEDICINE OR THE VEDIC SHIT MEDECINE Vedic medicine contains as ingredients human urine as well as that of cows and cow-dung. The latter two are supposedly sacred on account of the Aryan sacredness of the cow.
Vj ~ Very true these medicines came of age when the Muslims invaded India. It worked splendidly over centuries of Muslim rule - daily doses of it is the reason why the Muslims have lost dominance over India; and their (ayur-vedic medicines) continued use in preparing these wicked souls (Muslims) for vegetation and animals of our next creation, is God's merciful plan.
Dialogue 25
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Hello Akberloves - January 06, 1999
Making more friends I see.
Vj ~ Unfortunately the company of the wise are few.
What is the issue here?
Vj ~ The immoral conduct of a Prophet called Mohammad.
Although the marriage took place at a tender age, Hadrat Aisha was not taken as wife until she was over the age of 12.
Vj ~ I even heard of 16 and 19 years old, but the truth is she was betrothed at 6 and married to the lustful Prophet (55) at 9. By his conduct he left a trail of immoral and lustful activities where I can think otherwise.
According to science this is the typical age when a woman's body is capable of bearing children.
Vj ~ The point is not what a 12 year-old is capable of but that a Prophet (supposedly righteous man) was capable of improper moral conduct when it comes to having sex with a minor, his daughter-in-law and so many other women.
History shows that this was not an issue for anyone, neither friend nor foe.
Vj ~ Your history also proved the immoral and illiterate state of the Arab people then. Even worst, how can Mohammad be called a man of 'wisdom' among fools?
Why then is it an issue for you?
Vj ~ It is an issue for all since a spiritual legacy is set by exemplary moral conduct, as inspiration for young and old to follow. Likewise, the character of a man who is the source of a religion should be and would be questioned by the intelligent for all ages.
Hadhrat Aisha never once questioned this marriage why should you or anyone else?
Vj ~ It is not Aisha who I am questioning but the one who took her to bed at such a tender age. Righteousness is measured by one's character, especially in this day and age, I don't see why it was any different 1400 years ago or before.
Have you forgotten about the Hindu practice of engagement at birth with no choice in the matter from the bride or groom?
Vj ~ How could I? It was during the Muslim period of rape, pillaging and plundering that this custom began. The girls were married of at a very young age because to avoid them being raped by the Muslim invaders. While I am at it, the Custom of Sati gave birth then too, where the widows would cremate themselves alive with their dead husbands rather than staying alive to be raped by the Muslims invaders.
This is a more questionable practice than a marriage where both husband and bride have agreed to the marriage.
Vj ~ The question here is not agreement but the immoral conduct of a man who is old enough to be her grand-father. And again, (taken from Zulfikar Khan’s website) Zainab, his daughter-in-law. One day the prophet "beheld in a loose undress, the beauty of Zainab, and burst forth into an ejaculation of devotion and desire. The servile, or grateful, freeman (Zayed), his adopted son, understood the hint and yielded without hesitation to the love of the benefactor."
Mohammed was not satisfied with his own overflowing harem and had to marry his son's wife. His son being a devoted follower of the "great" prophet was more than happy to divorce his wife. What a great father-in-law Mohammed was, a model for all Islamic father-in-laws!
It is only a man who lack true spiritual values that would condone such an immoral and dastardly act and this leaves the whole of Islam questionable when it comes to righteousness.
Dialogue 26
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Hello Akberloves - January 07, 1999
vj, I'm sorry but your insulting and accusational manner makes it difficult to discuss matters with you.
Vj ~ It seems then your religion is in serious trouble. If it is “insulting” why blame me for merely saying it, while praising the one (Muhammad) who committed it? If you prefer a fight, I am not going to oblige you,
Vj ~ It is written all over the Q'uran telling its followers to fight in the name of Allah and the Prophet, so not obliging me, would be against the will of Allah, wouldn't it?
”Bring your argument, if you are of the truthful.” (The Cow: 111) rather if you prefer to discuss matters with the spirit of trying to understand then please change your manner.
Vj ~ I can change my manner but how would that change Mohammad's sensuous, lustful and adulterous conduct? Many of the accusations that you are leveling are false.
Vj ~ At least you find a few to be true, why not discuss it? I can show you, if you are unaware, that the practice of Sati was an integral part of Hinduism eons before Islam existed.
Vj ~ It seems you can't, since you didn't. Please do not twist facts and history to support your malicious views of Islam.
Vj ~ Is this how you defend 'twisted' facts of Islamic history? Amazing how truth can be twisted to mean malicious. This also goes for the matter of the Prophet and His wives.
Vj ~ "Do as I say and not as I do". From now on I would prefer that you note your historical or religious sources before making such accusations.
Vj ~ I would like to, but where is your defense so far? Many of the accusations that you are making were also made by Western Orientalists and medieval priests and crusaders well before your time.
Vj ~ Well it only shows, that it is there, since it was made in the past, is now being made again and most certainly it will be made in the future. How will it ever change if it is always there?
These accusations were shown to be false on the basis of facts shown from history.
Vj ~ Easier said than done. Where are your facts in defense of the Islam’s barbaric history?
Again, if you prefer to discuss facts and to understand, quote me from a historical work and I will also respond from a historical work.
Vj ~ I have tried that but you will dismiss them , as the others did, as works of infidels.
Then that is the end of my part in this discussion as you have already made your guesses as to how I am going to respond before I have done so.
Vj ~ Running like a coward, nothing new to me. What would it take to prove me wrong? Most likely, like the others, you know you wouldn't stand a chance. Hello jabirf - January 12, 1999
Hey Mr. Vijai Singh: How are you
Vj ~ I am fantastic my friend and what about you besides avoiding me?
and are you the famous golfer?
Vj ~ No, I am not the golfer! I am saying this because I don't want you to send out a fatwa on a famous and innocent man.
I see you are at your zealous best... Have fun.
Vj ~ And you thought staying away from me would have daunted my joyful spirit. Please do drop by when you are free of cunning others into believing there are 72 virgins and 28 young boys for each one of them in Paradise.
Dialogue 27
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Hello 0-0-Jamaian - January 14, 1999
I converted to Islam in 1996.
Vj ~ It is more like converting from a fool to a bigger fool and to become a Mullah the biggest fool. When are you going to take the next step?
One the requirements of my new life style is to seek knowledge.
Vj ~ And you think a man (Mohammad) who had sexual relations with a nine year-old, his youngest wife (Aisha), his own daughter-in-law (Zainab) and had 7 other wives, and still committed adultery (23 concubines), can give you this knowledge. A life of sensualism, it is no wonder you converted.
That is the reason for my getting online.
Vj ~ It would have been a better judgment to investigate all religions and then base your decisions on it.
I guess I wasn't thinking,
Vj ~ Make sense why you have converted to Islam.
information I don't know,
Vj ~ And what sensible person would convert to a religion without having all the information necessary?
Instead I found people disagreeing with each other, but not being civil in the way they confronted each other.
Vj ~ You need not come here to find disagreements. Actually, you haven't been studying your Q'uran and the history of Islam - it is really all about disagreements and confrontations.
I was really disappointed to find some Muslims resorting to the use of insults.
Vj ~ If you think that is bad, wait till you hear of the atrocities of (Muslim extremists) in the Mid-East, the rest of the world and Islam's long and dark history of tyranny (rape, torture, plunder).
My point is, there is no reason for Muslims to become abusive when dealing with non-muslims
Vj ~ Obviously your point is out of order; the Q'uran instructs Muslims to kill - "put the infidels to the sword". Have you bought one yet?
We need not attempt to justify our deen to anyone.
Vj ~ And who is asking for justification?
God will settle all on the Day of Judement.
Vj ~ If all is settled on judgment day where is Muhammad, in the meantime, or is he an exception? Rather convenient eh!
Waste not your time in idle confrontation, because God's will, will be done, with or without Muslims, with or without non-Muslims.
Vj ~ So, why convert to Islam if it matters not whether you are a Muslim or Non-Muslim?
Finally, I have found people arguing about whether Islam is the only way.
Vj ~ If it is your final argument you are in serious trouble.
Even with my lack of knowledge I know that in the Holy Qur'an..
Vj ~ I admire your integrity, not many Muslims will admit they are ignorant which (ignorance) is what it really takes to convert to Islam.
it says that it is our good deeds and the good within our hearts that will determine if we will reach paradise.
Vj ~ My guess is that you can't wait to lay your hands on the 72 virgins promised to you in Paradise.
Meaning Muslims as well as non-Muslims will reach Paradise.
Vj ~ Seems like you are re-writing the Q'uran - how could non-muslims go to paradise when Allah calls for their annihilation?
So I guess the answer to "Is Islam the only way?", is, Islam is NOT the only way...but it is by far the BEST way.
Vj ~ Pray that your guess is right. Anyone who guesses on such an important aspect of life is in for grave disappointments. It is like being airborne with out a pilot.
Dialogue 28
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In Reply to Mohamed Ghounem on July 29, 1998
: Peace,
: There have been some accusations that the Prophet (peace and blessings
: upon him) invented scripture in order to seduce women, this Hadeeth
: settles that false claim:
Vj ~ How could it be false accusations when he demonstrated by his own lustful actions by having as many as nine wives simultaneously and concubines. The youngest Aishya was only six years old. Can any man, marry a child and be called righteous in a civilized society as ours today? Surely in society where men live like rogues, where lawlessness knew no bounds anything goes. It is ludicrous that in present-day modern civilization people still regard such immoral actions as Divine sanctifications. In other revelations, it was God's command, but Mohammad created his own God, since it was his command that Allah had to obey. In Reply to Tarek on July 30, 1998
Dear Sir, The Quran tells us to treat our enemies with justice and fairness.
Vj ~ Then how would you explain Islamic barbarism and tyranny against innocent nations of Asia and Europe? You can say what you want to say now but the dark history of Islam speaks for itself. In Reply to MFRahman on July 31, 1998
"Vj, from wherever did you get your history books?"
Vj ~ It has been the history of India for almost a thousand years, my friend, and you know what it (Pakistan) is still a threat to her.
And I see that you follow the customary route of distorting a
religion for the errors of its followers."
Vj ~ You call it errors; I call it "Jihad" sanctioned by your Koran.
"Well you are not being very original my boy."
Vj ~ What will make me original - become a Muslim? Original (true religion) existed long before 1400 years ago.
"You seem bent upon being as offensive as you possibly can be."
Vj ~ I can't help it, truth is offensive to the ignorant. Besides, if you are offended, it is for your own good.
"Well, enjoy yourself while you can."
Vj ~ It is not a matter of enjoyment but seeking the truth by ingraining the proper reasoning habits.
"Do you have any words of guidance to offer, or are you simply a born again iconoclast? Your type is a dime a dozen. If you would like to be taken seriously, comport yourself more appropriately
young man."
Vj ~ The wise are above vanity and abuse and can never be offended because "true religion" (Vedic) is the first religion of the world. Look at this way, I am not the one defending my religion here, which leaves me with all the time in the world to elevate my soul. It is not that no one want to criticize my faith, they can't. This is one reason why it is true religion, no one can refute it.
Dialogue 29
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In Reply to MFRahman on July 31, 1998
"Have you read the Quran yourself, or have you plucked one verse out and arrived at your conclusion?"
Vj ~ If you cannot debate this one verse with me why would you want us to discuss the whole Koran?
"It would be farcical to attempt to respond to you if this single
Verse is all that you have to criticize on fallacious grounds."
Vj ~ Then why don't you prove me wrong? Isn't this what a debate is all about?
"And if you have much more to present, then responding now is a
waste of time."
Vj ~ Seems to me you are really looking for the easiest way out. "What is your own faith? Have you decided that Islam is untrue because you feel that yours is True? Let us have a bit more from you please. What other faiths are untrue in your view?
Vj ~ I did provide you with such information - all you have to do is click "here".
"Finally, if you have not read the Quran, I suggest that you do before your verdict."
Vj ~ I did read your Koran and all the others and I have given my verdict on all the false religions of the world. In Reply to Imtiaz Chaudhary on July 31, 1998
Seek His guidance and you will be guided. Level of guidance: bestowed is equivalent to the level of sincerity.
Vj ~ Is the death sentence issued against Rushdie (free speech), his level of sincerity? Is God the Lord of the Muslims alone? Did not Divine religion exist at all before fourteen hundred years ago? Would it have been difficult for anyone to find out that it was the 'true' religion with God, if the Koran didn't say so? Or is it more likely that it is not true religion since the Koran had to enforce the idea that it was. Finally shouldn't "True religion" be judged to be so after deep reflection through impartial dialogue between rational people? If I can contradict it so strongly, it shows that the "Koran" is not the word of God, but of some one who is not even wise. In Reply to mosen on August 01, 1998
Is the death sentence issued against Rushdie, the
level of sincerity?
Rosen: LEV 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.
Vj ~ "O lord I thank thee for thy rule benign
Thy kind protection and thy blessings sweet
And those who are the dreaded foes of mine
I lay them humbly at thy gracious feet." The Vedas If there is an iota of wisdom within you it may help you to visualize the true wisdom of a Just, merciful and compassionate God.
Since He is the Supreme Judge He has asked us not to do His job dispensing justice
for Him. His truth reign supreme and cannot be blasphemed or descrated
and only this way we can free us of unhappiness.
Again your above quote does not hold good for a civilized society
should you answer the command of your 'holy revelation' you will be
incarcerated for life or be hung. The laws of the Koran and Bible
are lawless and were made by ignoramuses in a barbaric society which has
no place in today's society except in Islamic countries. Imagine putting to death a
14 year-old for blasphemy, is this what Allah's Mercy and Compassion is
all about? How on earth can a little boy destroy or taint the 'truth' of a Supreme
God? When are Muslims going to do some thinking?
Dialogue 30
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In Reply to Mohamed Ghounem on August 03, 1998
I guess your willing to embarrass yourself as a close minded pervert in order to promote your Hindu gods. We have one hadeeth (which may not be authentic) which says she is 6 and another Hadeeth which says she is 16, you choose to believe she was 6 to promote your gods, you are doing nothing except showing us that your gods pervertedly prompt the followers to insist that little 6 year old children were used as wives despite evidence showing you otherwise.
Vj ~ It is the Prophet who is embarrassing Muslims, he has brought a religion and has left his followers the enormous task of defending
his immoral conduct. Even your Hadiths are in contradiction with each
other, the same with your Koran. I have asked a simple question and
it came to all of this. I will post it again and perhaps rephrase it
in another way, which might be simpler for the static intellect to grasp.
Peace and blessings,
Vj ~ Muslims are not at peace my friend so how can you offer the blessings of it. In Reply to MFRahman on August 03, 1998
Get real VJ. How do you "lay" your enemies at God's "feet" if not dead as doornails? How did the Lord give "protection" and " blessings" if not by killing off your enemies now to be laid at His "feet"? Get out of here with your pseudo pacifism. God Himself slays us all. And He did mandate His Messengers to slay their enemies in their Missions. We are now in an era of peace. I am not so sure that you are however. Hypocrites and misrepresenters of Truth wait their opportunity to stab in the back in treachery.
Vj ~ He simple means to ignore the foes and be vigilant in your
studies and practice in seeking Him. It makes sense since no one can ever reach
Him while engaged in bloodshed.
Again if Allah instruct Muslims to kill unbelievers then He is not
an Omniscient God. Since He created everything then He is alone
responsible for creating unbelievers also. It is totally absurd to
create them in the first place and then ask His followers to slaughter
them. Come on, my friend, how can you defend such ignorance. Wake
up.
True we are at peace now and thanks to western civilization for
bringing civility to Muslims and sending their forces to keep the peace in all Islamic enclaves of the world. It is a good thing that the Koran wasn't revealed in the beginning of creatioin, as their history shows how incapable they are of living in peace, who would have kept the peace for them.
Dialogue 31
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In reply to Mohamed on August 04, 1998
Mohamed - "God knows all languages ...."
Vj ~ So why all non-Arab Muslims must pray in Arabic.
Mohamed - "..and is everywhere,.."
Vj ~ If Allah is everywhere then he is in every unbelievers toilet, so why are Muslims not offended, but find it offensive when
Mohammad's youngest 6-year old child-bride is being discussed, and every thing else about Mohammad and desecration of deemed holy sites and writings?In Reply to mosen on August 04, 1998
Short and simple, God is everywhere by his knowledge and power.
Vj ~ But not in all ages, right? Since He only send true religion 1400 years ago.
Could you please tell us about your gods and goddess and where are they?
Vj ~ Here is my God. He created the universe and then man and gave them instructions (Vedas) then, not thousands of years later.
Let me, I write your prayer for you:
: "O lord I thank thee for thy rule benign
: Thy kind protection and thy blessings sweet
: And those who are the dreaded foes of mine
: I lay them humbly at thy gracious feet." The Vedas
God, as I know, The most prevalent expression of worship for the Hindu comes as devotion to gods and goddess. In the Hindu pantheon there are said to be three hundred and thirty-three million Gods
Vj ~ What is wrong with the prayer above; you saw no blood in it?
You were talking about civilization!? What happened?
Vj ~ Civilization was wonderful until it came in contact with Islam. In fact, India was the richest country on earth until muslim invaders plundered it. I know it must be difficult for Muslims to defend the promiscuity of the Prophet, whom their Paradise depends on, in this
modern and civilized world of ours now. Living in the past can do more harm than good..
Your efforts to discredit the prophet's (peace be upon him)
moral and integrity are nothing but smoke without a fire.
Vj ~ Is it? What is moral and honest about an old man marrying a child (6, 9, 11 or 12 years) regardless of when it (olden days)
took place. Modern society will not condone such an act even if was committed by an ordinary man, never mind a Prophet. Are you saying God has different laws for different age. Where is the justice in that?
There is no base to them but your sick imaginations and dreams. A slight fanning and all the smoke disappear into nothingness.
Vj ~ It will never disappear my friend not as long as there are
stalwarts like Dr. Ali Sina, Anwar Shaikh, Taslima, Zulfikar Khan and many others.
Dialogue 32
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In Reply to:Qadome on August 03, 1998
I will be happy to explain to stupid you:
Vj ~ Thanks!
That proves nothing but what a big forger and liar you are.
That is not what S. 5:54 says it is not even close.
The closest thing to what you said is S.5:57 and there is what
it says:* O ye who believe! Take not for friends and protectors THOSE WHO TAKE YOUR RELIGION FOR A MOCKERY OR SPORT, whether among those who received the scripture before you, or among those who reject faith: But fear ye Allah, If ye have faith * {57}.
I guess that means you!.
Vj ~ Thank you again! But that still does not answer Sura 5:54.
To lie is normal for someone like you, but to produce fake verses
Vj ~ Fake verses make fake Koran!
to gain popularity among other religions (that you discredited) is low even for someone like you. Most of the Christians and Jews know what Islam thinks of them. It is clear in a lot of issues in this debate web page.
Vj ~ Sure you made it clear to co-exist peacefully now, but the history of Islam speaks for its self. Mohammad himself led his followers into battle against Jews, slaughtering the husbands and taking their wives. O what a ‘righteous’ man!
Allah has identified people like you,
Vj ~ And what about the billions who think the same way of Islam, as I do and say nothing about it?
in his Book of the Qur-an, for more than 1400 years now, and
here is what he has to say about you: Who doth greater wrong
than one who forges FALSEHOOD against Allah, Even as he is being
invited to Islam? And Allah Guides not those who do wrong*{7}.
Their intention is to extinguish Allah’s Light (BY blowing)
with their mouths: But Allah will complete his Light, Even
though the Unbelievers May detest*{8}. S. 61:7-8.
Vj ~ And what did Allah had to say about those born before 1400 years ago or even those in remote regions who never heard of the Q’uran?
Allah is right as always for Islam is the fastest growing religion
Vj ~ So is pain and misery? A new car does not grow to be better nor anything else finite. The same for creation, the best (perpetual happiness) have already gone whatever is left to grow will be more of pain and misery. As you can see the more Islam grows the more there are pain and suffering for Muslims.
Oh Allah I believe and I do see the light, oh Allah be my
witness as I declare that there is no God But Allah And That
Mohammed ( Peace and Blessings be upon him) is the Prophet and
final Apostle of Allah ( Join with me brothers and sisters into
the religion of truth and light)-. So blow or you want you will
never ever accomplish anything but disappointment.
Allah’s light will continue.
Vj ~ Where is his "light" when Western peacekeepers (unbelievers)
have to maintain the peace in the Islamic world.
Instead of filling your self with hatred and jealousy against Islam in trying to prove it wrong (you will accomplish nothing), try to prove your religion to be right. Or do you not have any argument there?
Vj ~ Wise men only speak the truth and are never moved by praise or insults. You cannot see the truth of my religion until you have renounced what (Islam) keeps you in ignorance.
Dialogue 33
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Hello jabirf - Mar 21, 1998
I was waiting for you. You must think you are "God" and able to set the rules. No one is going to tolerate your sneak attacks on cherished beliefs and I would suggest that you go find somewhere else to ply YOUR version of things. Islam is what God(Creator) wants US to do and frankly I don't care what it is that you want. You are free to believe whatever YOU want, but you will NOT get away with an undermining of Al Islam here, so apologize or move on. Wise men are not GOD, and you sure aren't any wise person. Snake or worm comes to mind.
Vj ~ Sound defeated, unhappy or both? This is enough of a proof that false religion cannot bring happiness to mankind. You see my friend, true knowledge always come up for vicious attacks by the credulous but because it is God's wisdom no mortal man can destroy or smear it. Likewise it does not need laws of blasphemy to be protected, it is genuine and stands superior to all forces. Why would you want to cherish a belief that is not in harmony with reasoning? If you are certain, or you may even be ready to die for it, that your religion is 'true religion' let us debate it in a friendly atmosphere, why the anger? I know many feelings are being hurt, but it is for one's own good. Just as a surgeon who must apply surgery (pain) if the disease gets out of hand.
You truly have taken leave of your earthly senses and have gone somewhere out there. Happy trip and there was no fight to lose. Read your own statements about knowledge. Whose reasoning are you talking about "Messiah" or is that Shaitan. Obvoiusly your own "superior intellect" - "Mr. Spock". thanks pal and have a good one.
Vj ~ You truly have taken leave of your earthly senses and have gone somewhere out there. It is only by subjective knowledge one can really know God, so you are right, you have to leave your earthly senses to realize Him.
Happy trip and there was no fight to lose.
Vj ~ How could there be a fight when I know for a fact your spiritual journey to truth is yet to begin.
Read your own statements about knowledge. Whose reasoning are you talking about "Messiah" or is that Shaitan.
Vj ~ Messiahs have only brought divisions among mankind and Satan takes the blamed for all these divisions. A neat cover up I would say, and you would say the same if you should reason a little with the guidance of correct knowledge.
Obvoiusly your own "superior intellect" - "Mr. Spock". thanks pal and have a good one.
Vj ~ You are not going to run like "Mr. Spock" opponents, are you? I am happy also to be your pal and thanks for the warm words of advise. Hello Atilla - 16 Mar 1998
Vj ~ The true religion of the Vedas never feared the advancement of science, nor was it guilty of terrors of the Inquisition. It never shed the blood of a Galileo, a Copernicus or a Bruno. You see Simon I never have to defend it
Atilla: It seems we must open another discussion group namely Hindu - Moslem discussion group.
Vj ~ Not necessarily so, the Vedic philosophy has the same negative effect on all that is false.
The system of social caste is an unacceptable injustice for a muslim, or the burning alive of the wife in the funeral of husband.
Vj ~ I am in total agreement with you. I couldn't have said it any better. These are all the misfortunes of false religion. This is why it necessary to debate them so that man can be free of these ignorant influences by the true wisdom of Vedic teachings.
Vj, It is true that much bloodshed has been done in the islamic world and even in the name of islam.
Vj ~ This is what I call a very honest student of Islam. It happened in other religions too, which means there is a higher knowledge which can free mankind of these atrocious acts of barbarism and tyranny.
But there is no culture that is pure of things like these and Hindus are no exception.
Vj ~ Vedic! Vedic! The purest of all cultures.
Vj, I respect many aspects of Hinduism and I am an admirer of Bhagawat Gita.
Vj ~ Respect does nothing else but to keep the fire of religious tensions under the girdle. It is called religious tolerance. Don't admire the Gita, as the Hindus do, take its contents and make it practical in your life, only then it is of benefit to you.
But debating about who's religion is better is surely not in accordance with the soul of Bahagawat Gita.< br> Vj ~ You haven't read the Gita, you don't know what is in it and you don't understand it, how on earth would you know of it's soul.
Dialogue 34
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In reply to Abdullah Umair - 02 Mar 1998
Islam is considered to be the true religion from the time of the first human being - literally Islam means submission to the will of God. Here is a verse of the Qur'an that should make things somewhat clearer:
Vj ~ Then who was the first Muslim? You still haven't answered why would God send is last revelation 1400 years ago. Would this not deprive millions of souls born before Mohammad or that the first ones were no good?
2:62 Those who believe (in the Qur'an) and those who follow the Jewish (Scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians and who believe in Allah and the last day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
Vj ~ It is not a very friendly atmosphere in countries that is governed by Islamic laws. But the Koran speaks of hate, "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors..." Sura 5:54 This verse is in contradiction to one you quoted me - why?
"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you. ......And slay them wherever ye catch them; and turn them out from where they have turned you out! For tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter...Slay them..... And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression.......Sura. 2: 190, 191, 193.
These intolerant teachings do not speak of peace and goodwill.
Is muhammad(pbuh) a prophet?? Is Jesus (pbuh)a prophet too?? Jesus bible is derived from The Jew's old testament or the torah. Jesus even insisted that the religion he brought was to reintroduce the same religion that Moses brought.But looked what happened to Jesus. Hated by the same races,the israelites that he was sent to. The Koran is not exactly the same as the Bible.
Vj ~ I do not see hate as the reason to invalidate the Biblical revelation. Muslims hate each other too. Shiites and Sunnis are slaughtering one another in many parts of the Islamic world. How can it validate your revelation?
The Koran introduced new and complete laws.
Vj ~ Doesn't this show weaknesses in God's omniscient powers? Making new laws would be unjust since He treated people with different laws in different ages. If these laws are meant for the well-being of mankind, then the souls born before these laws will be deprived of them.
It is also NOT been changed like the bible. it have more acute stories to what have really happened to Jesus. Some of the bible content was written after the alleged death of Jesus. How could this be if Jesus was supposedly dead? the writer didn't get this from GOD.
Vj ~ If the Bible was a revelation and Jesus a prophet what was the need for another revelation? Did God make a mistake? Can anything already known to man be a revelation again? The Koran is no different than the Bible in that they are books of mere repetitions of historical events.
They actually theorise, came to their own conclusion that Jesus was a god. BTW, how could KORAN is derived from the bible IF prophet Muhammad (pbuh) cannot read. He definitely can't read the bible because the prophet is illiterate?? There others factors that proves Koran is different from the Bible. For more information, check out Ahmad Deedat pamplet. You'll be surprised.
Vj ~ I am already surprised that an Omniscient and Omnipotent God would choose an illiterate for his revelation. This God must be illiterate too. The Chancellor of a University would never hire an illiterate to teach and I don't think he can be measured in anyway superior to the wisdom of God. It defies all logics that to day no illiterate man can expound knowledge - it did not happen then and it can never happen ever.
Dialogue 35
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In reply to Simon -08 Mar 1998
Simon: We seem to agree that The Truth is The Truth, and I agree with some fundamentals of your statement, but I have a question or two regarding your approach to finding it. Certainly the religion should be in harmony with reason. How can you follow an instruction that tells you both to do something and not to do something!?
Vj ~ Then the one revelation with no contradictions will be the true one.
But I suggest that you will not find the truth by taking an average or selecting the bits you like across a range of religions - then we would have a multitude of personal religions and probably even more 'religious' wars! The Truth is the truth - and if it happened to be contained in one specific system then that is the right system.
Vj ~ You have to know them all to find the one that contains the only truth.
Similarly, ultimately science cannot be the judge of religion.
Vj Science can be evidence to true religion - Science perhaps cannot give us the correct age of creation but it can certainly tell us that creation is not 60,000, or 6,000 or 1400 years old, but millions or billions of years old. Since it is older than what the bible and Koran made it to be - then there must be an older revelation. Again if God taught us ethics and morals who taught us science? It had to be God and if it is not in the Bible, Koran or gita - it must be in some other revelation. ~
If you were to take scientific 'knowledge' at the time of the revelation of the Qur'an you would have been rejecting it because it came out and blatantly said things like (sorry, can't find the reference just now) 'And We constructed the heavens with our hands, and for certain they are expanding'. That is what the Arabic says, but translations usually misquote it because they were done before General Relativity and translators tried putting a metaphoric slant on it. The Qur'an also details embryonic development hundreds of years before a microscope could confirm the truth.
Vj ~ This maybe true, but how do you know that it was not in some other revelations millions of years ago?
Something else stated in the Qur'an that you might approve of is that messengers were sent to all peoples, so no one was left without guidance - if they chose to follow it. Of course these messages have been corrupted with time and politics, as God knew would happen, so He prepared and prophesised in earlier revelations a messenger to bring a final message for all peoples - at a time when global travel was going to become important.
Vj ~ All messengers brought opposing views which are responsible for the divisions among us today. Even the final message you speak of, have brought more divisions even among muslims themselves. An omniscient and an All-pervading God knows everything and will know that the man will be corrupted no matter whom is sent as messengers. So why would he send them in the first place? God sent one revelation and not by a messenger - these laws are laid out from the beginning of creation for all of mankind - you breach it you pay the penalty; you obey it you enjoy the prosperity it brings. This is the way it is and is the only justice of a Just God, for all of mankind.
Dialogue 36
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In reply to Simon on 11 Mar 1998
Hello Vijai, How did 'Islam' expand into Europe and Asia? It seems again we are running into the conflict between 'Islam' being acceptance and submission to the purpose of God, and 'Islam' a convenient political tool used by various leaders to expand their wealth and power!
Vj ~ The conflict lies in your doctrine and now that Muslims are more enlighten because of interaction in other societies they are trying desperately to defend its horrible past. But history is history and you can't change it to make me think otherwise.
The Qur'an states 'there is no compulsion in religion' - so you certainly can't go out and make people 'muslims' by wars of conquest! And as pointed out (real) Muslims cannot be the aggressors.
Vj ~ Well, don't you call invasion of peaceful nations aggression? Islam did not come to India without bloodshed you know?
Simon - Yes. ‘Islam’ might have come that way, but it would be impossible for ‘Islam’ to do so. Part of the problem is ignorance, and it certainly is abused by leaders to control populations.
Vj ~ Well Mohammad was illiterate which is ignorance and he is the whole problem. This may be one of the reasons Muhammad is said to have advised 'Seek knowledge, even if it take you to China' (the limit of the known world at the time). If people genuinely wanted to know the truth and looked for it, much of what you criticise could not have happened.
Simon - it is my experience that ‘illiterate’ people are not necessarily stupid - in fact the ones I worked with were very astute. And my experience at university showed me that there were many people without academic qualification who had a far better idea of what was going on than many students. Perhaps you would like to condemn another portion of humanity on perhaps, their skin colour, baldness, height etc? Having defended the innocent, let me also suggest that Mohammad was not illiterate. Getting down to the detailed Arabic of the Qur’an it was dictated to Mohammad, not read. Also he was a merchant until 40 and the revelation. Arabs used letters to represent numbers, so he was probably very familiar with them and writing them.
Vj ~ This is most absurd. If Muslims were advised to seek knowledge in foreign land what was the purpose of the Koran? Could not the Koran enlighten muslims without going to distant lands to seek knowledge? This advise can only come from an illiterate man, which he was. No wonder, Muslims are always at war, Algeria, Pakistan, India, Afghanistan Lebanon, Palestine, Indonesia, Russia, Phillipines, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria and I could go on and on. Why? Could it be they are following the teachings of an illiterate man and the Koran was not really a revelation from God?
Simon - China is a metaphor. It represents the furthest a person could go at that time. I.e. strive your utmost to find the truth. Muslims are not at war in all those places - humans are. A real Muslim would only act in self-defense. Regarding Hindu/Muslim conflict, I again fear human politics and power, and very little religion.
Vj ~ "Let not believers take unbelievers (infidels) for their friends, rather believers, Whoso shall do this, hath nothing to hope from God....." What has this got to do with politics?
The Muslim should not be the aggressor, but will defend himself. It is not his business to carry out judgement on non-muslims. The Qur'an says (45:14) 'Tell those who trust to forgive(pardon - do not carry out sentence on) those who do not look forward to the days of God. It is for Him to recompense each people according to what they have earned.' I don't think it could be put any clearer!
Vj ~ Then why is Solomon Rushdie running for his life? Muslims preached one thing (peace) and then practice something else (revenge)
Regarding 'spoils of war': The early muslims were persecuted and evicted by the leaders of the time who obviously didn't want any change in the status quo. They abandoned most of their belongings and property in Mecca and migrated to Yathrib(now Medina). Here they were attacked by the Meccans. In these assorted battles they of course acquired some of the 'spoils of war.'
Vj ~ This is ok when it happen in your own muslim Arabia, but why was it exported to other regions? Hinduism, Zaroastrianism, Sikhism and many other religions did not invade other countries and enforced their religion. I cannot say the same for Christianity and Islam.
All such property was given to Muhammed to distribute to the needy. Muhammad himself lived a very simple life, worked normally and died without property (very Ghandhi-like?)
Vj ~ What simple life? What is so simple about having 9 wives? I would say he is was living it up with the spoils of war and bloodshed. very (unGandhi-like?)
Dialogue 37
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In reply to Simon on 14 Mar 1998
Simon - How can they have been brainwashed into 'Qur’anic ideology' as they are going against what the Qur’an says? If a book says do not be the aggressor, and someone says we aggress because of what is in this book, then they are plainly lying. They have been brainwashed into a different ideology which chooses the name ‘Islam’ but is different in many essential characteristics from what I am calling ‘Islaam’ to remind that it is the noun action of the verb Aslama and dissociate Truth from this corruption.
Vj ~ Obviously, it is not a revelation with a clear meaning. It has so many contradictions that many different groups are formed from it. I guess you have just found another sect of what Islam is supposed to stand for. Simon - if the Qur’an nurtures me to a peace then perhaps it is not such a bad book!
Vj ~ Read again! ...Certainly you are not like them and this is because you have been exposed to other ideologies where God and Truth has a different meaning. Now, you apply this to the Koran.... The Koran didn't do it alone.
The Qur'an states 'there is no compulsion in religion' - so you certainly can't go out and make people 'muslims' by wars of conquest! And as pointed out (real) Muslims cannot be the aggressors.
Vj ~ You have to admit that there will be a lot of difficulty in explaining to anyone who is a real Muslim, even to the Ayatollah Khomeini and those who masterminded the bombing of the world's trade center.
Simon - No - what the Qur’an says was never applied. If it had been applied there could not have been any sword to convert people. History does not reflect on what the Qur’an says because ‘Muslims’ have not been following it - they use the bits that support them when convenient and ignore it when it doesn’t. If they stuck to what the Qur'an said they couldn’t have done what you complain of.
Vj ~ So you are saying that it would have been better if there were no Koran, since many were misled by it.
Simon - as it happens I have been vegetarian for 14 years on the principle that although I need to eat to survive, I considered it wrong to kill another human, and then extended this as far down the evolutionary scale as possible ‘just in case’ - meat is not necessary. When walking into school I also used to pick up the worms that had started across the path in a light shower and were now drying out, and drop them in some damp soil to save them. Terrific! I wonder how many birds I killed of starvation by depriving them of a food source? I can only claim my intention was good, on which I hope to be judged.
Vj ~ If moral humanly instinct tells you it is wrong to eat animals or kill worms or birds, does it not tell you also that the Koran, that you so thoroughly adhered to as the truth, is wrong to sanction their death.On what logical basis do you treat cows as special? Sheep also give milk, as do goats, and all mammals.
Vj ~ I meant all animals whether they give milk or not. But a cow and her generation alive can feed thousands of people, in her life time, with its dairy product, provide manure for gardening etc against feeding 90 people with her meat. Isn' t this logical enough?
And what is so special about milk?
Vj ~ You teach in a University and don't know the value of milk? Milk contains all the vitamins, minerals as calcium and potassium, building materials of the purest kind and fat and is the most important and complete food.
Especially cow-milk rather than the important mother’s milk in the early stages of a child’s life?
Vj ~ It is the cow's milk that strengthens the mother's milk and milk is good for adults also not only babies. Milk cannot be use of much use to non-vegetarians because they are already high on fat. Meat is the cause of many diseases and could have never been sanctioned by God as a diet for mankind. Simon - It seems to me that I am not so much defending ‘truth’ as consistently pointing out that what you are attacking is not the ‘Islaam’ given in the Qur’an, and have pointed out that much of what you think right is supported in the Qur’an.
Vj ~ Truth can never be attacked or needs to be defended. If the Koran were the ultimate truth, you would have been attacking instead of me. Only those who are wise can point out with reasoning what is false.
One essential difference might be that the Qur’an instructs us that all praise and thanks etc. are due to the God, not any of the other things God created such as Mohammad, cows, Jesus, the sun, etc.
Vj ~ So why don't you look for a religion where there is no mediator so that you don't have to praise or defend a mortal being but God alone.
Simon - anyone whether academic or not will benefit from a desire and search for the Truth. As it happens, I made many ‘logical’ deductions about some characteristics that must be true of God, such as ‘no compulsion’ and ‘all peoples receiving the message’ that had to be true if God was of the justice that I was born with. I found all this and more in the Qur’an, and most importantly things that I consider well beyond human existence.
Vj ~ It is not some logical decisions that bring us the truth - it is all logical decisions. Think of this, if all people needed a message, wouldn't it be just of God to give them in the very beginning of creation and not 1400 years ago?
But I will not claim that you can make a final logical proof of God. In the end you will have to come down to a personal ‘leap of faith’.
Vj ~ I would have considered you genius or a complete fool if you had done so. Simple because reasoning takes along time to be ingrained in the human intellect. In our quest for wisdom we strive upwards, we don't "come down" as the gullible do.
Simon - as suggested in a previous answer, only those who build structures for themselves based on dogma and tradition have to fear science or development of knowledge or change of the status quo because their power, wealth and authority depend on it. ‘Islaam’ cannot have this problem - I can’t vouch for Islam.
Vj ~ All religions that have mediators cannot escape science. None can declare the age of creation, whether there were previous creations or future creations. None can account for the scientific creation of our universe.
Regarding ‘natural laws’ the Qur’an describes several, and taking a normal change in meaning from a form I to a form II of a verb, ‘sabbaha lillah ma fi as-semawaati wa’l-ard’ means ‘whatever is in the heavens and the earth is moved by God’ - i.e. according to God’s law and command. (Sabbaha is normally translated as ‘glorifies or magnifies - i.e.God’, which in a way might be what is meant, but this translation sticks out like a sore thumb in a verb and derivations to do with movement or lack of it.) A (real) Muslim, however, should not confuse the operation of a law of God with God.
Vj ~ Natural laws also dictates that an effect must cease - what is created of matter must return to matter - so tell me how is your paradise with virgins, rivers of wine, palaces, couches or cushions, jewelry and physical bodies can all exist for all eternity.
It is possible to talk about historical facts in a revelation - for example if you are mentioning them to reveal a principle of which they are an example, which seems not to have been understood. This understanding is the revelation - not the historical fact. The reason such and such happened is because….. People X did Y, and this was the consequence - so will you not understand?
Vj ~ Are you certain you are a university graduate? A revelation from God must be something that no human being witness or know before and since reference (historical) are made of people and places it cannot be God's revelation but man, himself.
If you would care to send me a description of your religion, I would happily examine it, both to see where it and the Qur’an agree, and perhaps to see if there is something in it which you might need to ‘defend’ or proves logically inconsistent. You can mail me at Simon@irreduciblefifth.force9.co.uk
Vj ~ Simon, I made a point as a rational individual to find the truth and I made sure that no religion was left untouched by me. It is the only way to find the ultimate God. Check in the U.k for Arya Samaj or Vedic organizations and asked for a book called
"The light of truth" written by Swami Dayanand. It will give all you want to know of the Vedic religion.
Dialogue 38
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Hello mamado4 - January 05, 2000
Point1:allah sent messengers before Mohammad for the millions born before the revelation of The Quran, in fact not all of them are mentioned in The Quran "messengers we've told you about and messengers we've not told you about" The Quran states.
Vj ~ There is probably no doubt that he did, but who was the first and what was his message or revelation? If there were, then it must be consistent with the Quran, since attribute of Allah must be Omniscient (inconsistencies), which means it must state that four wives were allowed for all men from the very beginning. Besides Christ said he is the truth, the life and the way and only through him salvation is possible, if the same God gave him such an instruction, then Mohammad is a false prophet.
point2: Dolly
Vj ~ Cloning is done from a developing embryo which is the product of the reproductive element and therefore, not a breach to the immutable laws of nature.
point3: God created one man and one woman and from them all man kind are descended.
Vj ~ Incest (sexual relations between brother and sister) is immoral and leads to mental and physical infirmities and therefore could not have been an action attributed to the works of an Omniscient God.
point4:modern science contradicts itself every day.what was a scientific fact yesterday may be discarted today and Quran starts creation from the big bang believe it or not.
Vj ~ Quite true, but when revelation (Quran) contradicts science, then it is Allah who is contradicting his own science.
point5: don't work on perception alone look around you for evidence of God's existence.
Vj ~ Looking around is perception, so what else do you have to prove his existence?
God is eternal yes he created yes.
Vj ~ If he is eternal, how come your revelation (Q'uran) does not speak of past or future creations. What was your God doing before this creation and would he be doing after this one?
rewards are not for ignorance or wisdom but for good or evil.
Vj ~ One is evil because of ignorance, so how can one be good without knowledge (wisdom).
what good is wisdom if it's used to mislead.
Vj ~ It shows you nothing of what wisdom truly is? First of all, if one is wise one can never be misled or even mislead others. Again it is by wisdom one performs good actions while ignorance breathes sin.
Dialogue 39
Back to contents Hello ahmedd2 - January 15, 2000
We don’t judge people, what ever you say we laugh at you. in this world every body says i am the best. so who is gonna judge. the best of all judges is GOD.
Vj ~ If Muslims could only laugh at those who oppose Muhammad and Islam there would have been no need for "fatwa". Why is it, that they want to kill Rushdie, Salima, Anwar Shaik, Zulfikar Khan, etc., if they are so good at laughing?
if a man who worships hair wants to ignore the almighty GOD,WHAT ELSE are we waiting, nothing just to wait the judgment of GOD allah.
Vj ~ I agree especially when you are referring to the Muslim shrine in Kashmir somewhere holding a strand of hair, beleived to be that of Muhammad.
you have your freedom GOD gave you already no body forced you to say that. thats why he is gonna judge your case.
Vj ~ All those who are Muslims are already judged, why else are they suffering now? And as they continue to worship a false god their miseries will continue.
he knows what is inside your heart cause he is the one who created your heart.
Vj ~ If he knew men's heart, he would have known that Muhammad cheated on his wives and would not have threaten them with better wives when they found out.
and ISLAM is telling you just worship the almighty not stones,and other things. regards ahmed.
Vj ~ So why are Muslims prostrating in divine reverence to that huge stone (the Kaaba) in Mecca?
singh, the sun was shinning millions of years,and islam existed from the Begining of mankind.
Vj ~ And there was no Mecca, so why the need for it now? God created one wife for Adam, but Muhammad was given 9 simultaneously, while Christ had none. Why the inconsitency?
WE DONT WORSHIP stones,or pictures. what we are talking about is the GREAT GOD(ALLAH) THE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE.
Vj ~ "The Kaaba is a huge stone, idiot! And Muslim holy places are shrines forbidden to be descrated - they are holy because they are worshipped just like an idol.
YOUR SCIENTIFIC blah,blah is just a weak argument, when you make sex with your wife,and gets pregnant and gives birth, who created that baby?
Vj ~ I know for sure it wasn't Allah, otherwise the baby would have been a Muslim.
Your words is like there is man's lab in your wife's womb. You just had sex man, that’s all. you did nothing more than that.
Vj ~ It was from a man, who had nine wives, one as young a nine years old (Aisha) and another his own daughter-in-law, that the Q'uran was born. Furthermore, it was from an illegitimate child (Ishmael) born of Abraham's adulterous ways that gave birth to Islam. Now all Muslims can have four wives, so the sex labs were born of the religion of Islam.
vijai look around,feel,concentrate, as the brother told you. scientific reaserch is just a portion of the knowledge of GOD,and GOD gave us a little knowledge to know what is hot and whats cold.
Vj ~ True, but only 1400 years ago man knew what was hot and what was cold?
i guess you are an indian with the long hairs, do you know the hair is a dead cell? did you find scientifically this?
Vj ~ Not only that, I found out whatever is finite (created) must die, which means there is no Paradise with rivers of wine, milk and honey. However, the sad part is, there are no virgins either much less having 72 of them for yourself.
Dialogue 40
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Hello abdulqadr - January 15, 2000
Mr. Singh you have raised some good questions but the responses you provided were not correct from the Islamic perspective.
Vj ~ How could it be, when the Q'uran is only 1400 years old? And if it were, you and I would not have been having this discussion.
The first criteria that the Divine Teaching of the Qur'an was not present since the start of creation is not correct.
Vj ~ I can't see how it is from the beginning when even Adam were allowed 1 wife, instead of 4 which started only 1400 years ago.
The Creator has always been revealing His laws to mankind since mankind existed.
Vj ~ Then his laws are inconsistent which is an injustice. It is an injustice to change the laws to suit different ages, since it would deprive many before such laws. It cannot be the action of a Just God. It is like changing the rules during the game.
Even the animals such as the honey bee receive Divine guidance to fulfill their purpose in life.
Vj ~ Animals, insect, etc. by nature are stupor and are never in need of Divine guidance. Divine guidance is for the human intellect because only the human soul can be rewarded for virtuous actions and punished for sinful ones.
The objection is that the complete revelation should be present from the start. This is similar to saying that we should teach our children the complete principles of advanced mathematics even before we see whether they are capable of .
Vj ~ Even if children are not capable of "adding and multiplying" it should be there for the benefit of the ones who are doing the teaching. Is it good sense to build a toilet only when you are ready to answer nature's call?
Our experience and knowledge shows that things develop through stages and end in a culminated form at their present visible states. This includes the ability of men to realize and appreciate the Divine Teaching.
Vj ~ It is a breach to the immutable laws of nature for anything finite as righteousness, etc., to develop in stages, meaning that the best is yet to come. It simply, means that the first humans had to be the wisest and most righteous of all humans, how else would they have been able to teach others. In other words, universal righteousness in the beginning has now been reduced to universal unrighteousness by the constant rejection of the true religion of the Vedas or false religions as Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc.
God only revealed to these people what was required for their needs at that time and following that portion they achieved paradise.
Vj ~ And how do you consider the need of a Muslim to be rewarded with 72 virgins in Paradise, while those before 1400 years ago were deprived of it?
God has constantly been sending his Messengers with more comprehensive messages with Islam being the final one.
Vj ~ The Baha'u'alah (Baha'i) said he was the last one, how do you disprove this? Moses said "an eye for an eye" and " thou shalt not kill or commit adultery; Christ said to turn the other cheek and Muhammad said to put all infidels (non-Muslims) to the sword and disobeyed Moses law by committing adultery, not mention polygamy in an age faced with population explosion. Is this what you call comprehensive? Response to point #2 The reproductive element.
Again Mr. Singh science shows that reproduction has developed through many stages.
Vj ~ There is no difference in earlier or later stages the cause of physical body has always been the reproductive element. It is a law, unchangeable.
The Qur'an describes man's development through these various stages and is supported by modern scientific knowledge.
Vj ~ It is still an injustice to those before 1400 years ago, to be deprived this "scientific knowledge".
This means that the first men and women were created from dry ringing clay and only at a later stage did man's reproduction involve the uniting of the sexual elements of sperm and egg leading to the development of the embryo (clot of blood) which is nurtured inside the womb.
Vj ~ Then your God is neither an Omniscient nor All-wise God, since he is in violation of his own immutable laws where all human, from the very beginning, the cause was the reproductive element. What did he create the soul out of? Then again, if the soul was created, it is finite and must die, like everything else that is finite. It is law unchangeable. Since the soul dies, who then enjoy eternal Paradise? Any religion or scientific theory (evolution) that breaches the immutable laws of nature is false. |
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"Just as color cannot be perceived by ears, nor sound by eyes; in like manner, the Eternal Supreme Spirit is not perceptible to the senses. He can only be seen by a pure soul through the purity of heart, acquisition of knowledge and the practice of yoga. Just as one cannot reap the advantages of knowledge without acquiring it, likewise the Supreme Spirit cannot be seen without the practice of yoga and gaining the highest knowledge." The Light of Truth Translation
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