Dialogue 1
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Namaste Ashegan - Wednesday 30-Jun-1999
i pray i never fall into the depths of bigotry or ever assuming that a mortal man is the embodiment of truth...
Vj ~ To be on the safe side do not depend on prayer since even those who believe in "a mortal man is embodiment of truth' are also praying. Seek wisdom by the practice of correct knowledge (Light of Truth).
it is easy to lambaste vj and brand 'people like you'... it's much harder to guide...
Vj ~ If you are intelligent as you ought to be, you should take it as constructive criticism.
just as swami dayanand condemned the 'popes' who thought they had a monopoly on truth i will not follow those that believe even now that they hold such a monopoly...
Vj ~ I am happy that you have come this far but don't think that is all you should know. The truth is everywhere but only the wise can see it as such. This is what you must strive for and then the Gita would become a source of learning instead of an impediment
i do not have that soul-destroying ego that you accuse me of (thinking im greater that the swami)...
Vj ~ Then you must do some reflection by good reasoning,, guided with the Swami's message otherwise you won't know it. Do you think that those who have such an ego readily accept that they do?
i am not a thinker of his status nor of any great holy man i am a student with little love for prejudice and narrow-minded puritanical dogma...
Vj ~ Then await your turn as a thinker and then lay your criticism. Swami Dayanand awaited his turn, after freeing his own soul, to expound this truth with no comprise or compassion for those who were guilty of destroying the truth of the Vedas. It was not hate or anger, or prejudice or bigotry, but the zeal and passion to free mankind of pain and misery. It is against the nature of wise men to do otherwise.
i have found inspiration both in arya samaj and some of your own writings... for that i am thankful...
Vj ~ Then let this inspiration be the bedrock of understanding that would overcome all difficulties even me, if you see me as one.
i had hoped for a calm collected dialogue on the subject of the gita but obviously this topic has enflamed you with hatred and contempt for this nastik and his ilk who are dragging down the arya samaj...
Vj ~ If this is your attitude then you are no different from the Hindus you earlier criticize. Who do you think came to the fold of Arya Samaj in its inception? They were Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, etc. all of whom were victims of the Swami's wrath of criticism. Such hurdles when met becomes a challenge to strive for truth, and when conquered only then you become a master.
i apologise if i've caused you any distress due to my ignorance...
Vj ~ These are signs of weaknesses, get a grip of yourself, my friend. The wise are never moved by emotions or sentiments.
have faith in what you believe and so will i...&
Vj ~ It will not do you any good since truth is one. If you and I cannot think or reason like Swamiji, then we both have a problem. Don't we? Now let's get back to the discussion at hand about Lord Krishna, which you completely ignored during this post.
Dialogue 2
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Namaste Ashegan - Thursday 1-Jul-1999
i had hoped that that post would be my last and that i would not write anything again since it wasn't getting me anywhere... but i have this wierd temptation to respond...
Vj ~ Always trust the inclination of the soul on this subject. I am happy that you are still here Bhai Ashegan. This discussion will be of great benefit to you, that is if you come with the intention of learning instead of teaching.
you want to pick up the discussion on krishna? tell me vj: who is krishna? when did he live? what do you feel he really taught? why was he alone among all our sages and prophets deified so completely?
Vj ~ Again Ashegan, it is not important now who Krishna was, how he lived and why he was deified? These questions you can best answer when you have acquired the wisdom to know what is true and what is false as taught by Swami Dayanand.
i make no claim to wisdom... i am still young in years only 16 with much much more to realize in this world...
Vj ~ True, wisdom come with age and by practice with the correct knowledge. But here is where you must first start.
a final question: vj do you see yourself as 'wise' ? or knowledgeable?
Vj ~ Wise men leave such answers for those who seek this knowledge to ascertain for themselves to the best of their knowledge, who is wise after the correct knowledge is practiced. If you lack this knowledge, what good would my answer be to you?
what is your definition of this 'wisdom' that enables man to milk nectar from poison?
Vj ~ Reasoning guided by the (correct) practice of the correct knowledge (yoga) leads to this wisdom. While I am teaching you, I am also learning.
it is the duty i feel of learned men like yourself to dispel the ignorance that blinds the hindu youth to the truth... i wish you luck if you ever aim to accomplish that...
Vj ~ Vedic wisdom is for all, not only Hindus. It is tragic that many will not even come to know of this knowledge compulsion being so, but to those few who thirst there is a chance since it is now fully exposed on the net. It is nice of you to consider others while seeking this truth, but first you must enjoy the prosperity of it and then share it to others. Namaste, Vijai.
Namaste Ashegan - Sunday 4-Jul-1999
yes i am glad i did not leave too hastily... thanks for the noticable change in tone - i appreciate it.
Vj ~ It is not my tone that brought you back but your inner desire to seek truth. These are lesser hurdles where one must develop more courage to cross greater hurdles till it reaches the point of where you are willing to give your life for truth. Read the Life and Teachings of Swami Dayanand and you will see that my tone was nothing in comparison to the pain of daily threats on his life.
i have decided to pursue the topic of krishna and his humanity no longer...
Vj ~ I have decided not to persecute you intellectually also. (smile). That will come in its own time, right now, it is setting the pace through the elementary stage for others to follow.
instead i'd like to ask you for the correct translation of the nasadiya hymn from the rig veda (X.129.1-7) ( called the 'hymn of creation')...
Vj ~ Again like Krishna’ Gita, the Vedas is also unimportant to you now as it is to me. Why? It would have served fine if we had started early (8 years of age) in a Gururkul system, but anywhere outside of this system one must first tackle the Vedic religion from a philosophical standpoint by first ingraining good reasoning with the guide of the correct knowledge - Swami Dayanand's Light of Truth. The intellect has four stages static, functional, discriminating and the realized state. You are in a functional state now of which your next should be discriminating (right from wrong).
i have read the translation mostly by western 'scholars' who always end it as 'or maybe HE knows not (whence this creation has come)'... i would like to get the proper meaning of that hymn if you have it...
Vj ~ Scholars are as guilty as Hinduism in destroying the true meaning of the Vedas. Many like Max Muller, Schlegel, Coleman, Monier Williams, etc. also did their own translations but all were criticized by Swami Dayanand. There are simple steps from an elementary stage one must endeavor to take in acquiring this wisdom and only the Light of Truth teaches these simple steps. In other words, after the Light of Truth, the Ramayan, Gita etc., the Upanishads, Darshanas and other Shaastraas before the Brahmanas and then the Vedas in that order. Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 3
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Namaste - Tuesday 6-Jul-1999
thanks for that vijai but while i'll cooperate in your attempts to lift me from the depths of functional thought i'd really appreciate it if you could give me the email addresses of other samaji scholars on the net that can provide some answers and perhaps their own experiences... (please)
Vj ~ This truth is one and what other scholars have to say would be the same as myself or Swami Dayanand. Whoever differs cannot be scholars of this true philosophy.
i was not raised under a strict gurukul system like most indian youth around the world but the guidance i've had from my elders has helped me to some extent...
Vj ~ I know that and neither was I but I have had the privilege of being taught by one Bramchari Subhanand (my brother) who spent 10 years in such a system. Since, I have noticed how much our elders, including my father, are at odds with one another and leaves me to wonder what they have really acquired for them themselves.
i have read the light of truth over again and some of it is likely to go over the heads of many readers (like indirect cognition and inference etc.)...
Vj ~ The abstruse science of Vedic theology in any form needs a teacher or you are apt to miss the true meaning of it. Seek that teacher and you will be on your way.
but i don't think it's purely on account of my poor understanding...
Vj ~ We are all poor in understanding when it comes to the correct knowledge unless we are taught the right way. I have on going discussions even with scientists on these boards and yet they cannot grasp any of its scientific truth.
the western system we have been brought up in inculcates a mindset that needs to adapt to the lofty teachings of the vedas...
Vj ~ It all boils down to having the right inclination and the right Guru.
personally i don't think a person has to slowly progress from the gita and ramayan to get to the vedas...
Vj ~ Maybe not, but your indifferences with the Gita speak of the opposite.
i have read translations of the vedsamhitas and upanishads and they have moved me and inspired far more than the ithasas...
Vj ~ I know of many who are also inspired by the Bible, Q'uran and Gita. Inspiration clouded with ignorance is the norm of the age and it is not what we must seek. Your faith must be in harmony with reasoning guided by the correct knowledge. In short, no one can do it without the right teacher.
i believe strongly in the zarathustri ideal of choice in one's life my choice is to follow the faith that existed even before ram and krishna and whether you agree or not
Vj ~ Then you should follow Ram or Krishna's ideal since they preached it long before Zarathustra.
i think that is possible for all people whose hearts are willing and minds are humble...
Vj ~ And don't you think they are such people in other faith groups? If so how come they are yet to see your faith as the one true one? Namaste
Dialogue 4
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Namaste Ashegan - Wednesday 7-Jul-1999
sorry for this double-posting but i just went back and read through all my previous posts and your responses to them... i realise now the wisdom you were trying to instill in me...
Vj ~ You have finally weathered the storm my friend. It is the way to proper reasoning when one ponders over and over the subject at hand.
the holy gita has been adulterated by hindus all this time but with a discriminating mind we can understand the original message even behind all the layers of puranic folklore... i have to learn to understand the gita in the light of swamiji's teachings instead of rushing into it expecting to understand it properly...
Vj ~ Who could stop you now? The most difficult task is finding a way and the rest becomes very simple. When Columbus discovered the New World, he was mocked by jealousy (ignorance), saying that anyone could have done it. After they all failed his test to make an egg stand firmly on its end, he just simply tapped it flat on one end. "Now that I have shown the way, anyone can do it" he said.
i'm sorry i've made so little sense all this time and i thank you for having patience with me... you have helped open my eyes to the truth and with that i hope to correctly interpret the gita...
Vj ~ There is nothing to be sorry about. This is the prudence and inquisitiveness necessary for young minds to seek true knowledge. As matter of fact, I must congratulate you instead. You have shown courage and a burning desire amidst a tone that would have sent many back to the hell-hole of ignorance.
it was just that verses like the one in which arjuna apologises to krishna for calling him 'friend' 'yadav' etc and treating him like a human being got me so worked up at it's blatant contradiction of the vedas i was a bit blinded to what you were trying to teach me..
Vj ~ It is a good thing it did, now look at what you have accomplished by it.
now i think i realise that these are not the true verses of the gita but interpolated by orthodox priests to maintain their own teachings...
Vj ~ It would also be in your good interest to check out all my boards and ponder over my responses. It is strictly Vedic theology with no compromise, tolerance or sentiments for those who have rejected and reviled this truth. As they say, “Ignorance of the law is no excuse.” Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 5
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Namaste - Thursday 8-Jul-1999
i think i'll pass on going through all the message boards but i'd like to challenge you on a new subject...
Vj ~ Not a very smart move on your part if you truly seek truth. What could be a better position to be in, giving answers or asking questions?
;in satyarth prakasha swamiji says society is divided into classes based on their character and qualifications and he elaborates on the separate eating of the classes...
Vj ~ He was also referring to the Dwijas or twice-born.
my question is that if the parents are brahmans by their character but their child is a shudra or has character of one how can they avoid that child??
Vj ~ No child is born a Shudra or any class until old enough, where he/she acquires or reject by practice true knowledge. Obviously, a child born in a Brahman family will be considered a higher reward while the child born to a Shudra the opposite. A Brahman call fall to a Shudra condition whilst a Shudra can work his/her to be a Brahman.
and use separate utensils from their own flesh and blood merely on the basis of differences in character?
Vj ~ When you would have acquired the state of a Brahman you would bring forth children of the right caliber. It is the reward for the practice of righteousness and a true Brahman could never be placed into such a condition.
for example my brother might be considered a shudra as he has no interest at all in the veda and religion and indulges in vices regarding diet but does that mean i have to avoid using the same utensils as he uses (i think that would be impossible)?
Vj ~ The state where emotions and sentiments are habits of a Shudra, in such condition, yes it is impossible not to eat with your brother.
society cannot simply be grouped into classes based on jobs and character... in one family there might be all four classes... how can they possibly develop separately?
Vj ~ The Swami was speaking of an age where it was acceptable because there was one religion and everyone had a good idea of how the system worked. The rejection of this Dharma has been going on for such a long time that now one sees it as impossible to practice.
i know factory workers who work with leather who are truthful and possess all the qualities i would admire in a brahman...
Vj ~ You have to become a Brahman to know a Brahman. Right now, you don’t know who is a Brahman. If he has even the closest quality of a Brahman why is he working in a leather factory? The practice of righteousness leads one out of such miserable conditions.
and i know certain priests and learned people who would deserve to be outcasts...
Vj ~ It is obvious if you don't know who is a Brahman you won't even know who is an outcasts.
therefore in any society there can be no specific 'class' as they all come from different backgrounds and different families... in every culture such classes are completely mixed...
Vj ~ Very true and in "any society" of "different backgrounds and different families... in every culture", who truthfully practice Dharma?
the regulations swamiji gives eg. do not eat from shudra utensils don't seem applicable...
Vj ~ It should not be seen as contempt for others, but a good attempt in the practice of purity which should also be a lesson for those who might be offended by it.
what about eating at a restaurant? the people who could have used that plate or cup may have been shudras or malecchas... how can we ever know? does that mean never eat out
Vj ~ There are obviously different stages or conditions we are born in, and it doesn't mean we have to deprive or reject anyone because we have just read the Light of Truth. The practice of true knowledge can be a long and arduous task and for many it will take many births. But every life's achievement by honest effort towards this goal will reward you with a better condition, where the transition might not necessarily be acceptable to all, but mostly to you. Swami Dayanand's own mission of escaping family resulting in emancipation, is a good example. Had his emotions and sentiments for family proven superior to his better understanding of seeking this knowledge, he would have still been in bondage. Such a soul came with very high inclination, a very rear feat in such a dark age of Kaliyug, than those that must go it the other way (births after births), however painful it may be.
the explanation i was given as a youngster was that each of the 4 classes is to be found in every human being...
Vj ~ It is not in us, we have to make the correct effort to attain it and many can't in this age compulsion being so.
in the rig veda the classes are described as different parts of a body... in the same way the elements of all classes should be found in us...
Vj ~ It does, but only when you have achieved the state of a Brahman Kshatriya or Vaishaya the meaning will serve you to its best potential. In the same way, the planet is described as different parts of our body also, Northern regions, the power of the intellect, the equatorial regions, our mid section, physical health and the South the lower part of our body (dispelling all that is harmful), and so on. But none of these can be put to good sense without acquiring the correct knowledge and applying it by the correct practice (yoga).
the honesty and god-fearing attitude of a brahman the bravery and courage of a kshatriya the industriousness and resourcefulness of a vaishya and the humility of a shudra... i'm sure the vedas would want each one of us to foster those good qualities...
Vj ~ No good qualities can be fostered without the correct knowledge. This is what the Vedas taught and depending on one's individual efforts or progress in this practice one assumes the status of one of these classes. There can be no humility without wisdom and if someone is indeed humble, he cannot be a shudra. It does not mean there aren’t shudras of good character disposition.
it just seems illogical in the society we live in to divide people into classes... in some respects like learning and knowledge of the veda one might be a brahman but in kindness and honesty one might be lower...
Vj ~ It is even worst that we are divided into race, but that is the condition of Kaliyug and each must strive from this point, however impossible it seems, to acquire this knowledge to avoid further pain and misery to come. If kindness and honesty is in one lower than a Brahman, then the Brahman is not a Brahman. You are correct to visualize present society as an impossible venue to practice such a great philosophy, but you must also know that the law of nature would not permit universality in the end as it was in the beginning. Your thought process must be guided by individual efforts where it must first be attainable for you.
how can we without any emotion declare that a child is not of the same class as his parents or cannot share their utensils? if my parents were shudra am i to expect them to serve me as i'm of a higher class or must they only eat when i'm done?
Vj ~ As I said before it is all quite possible when you have become a true Brahman, until then it will be your emotion that will determine your momentary happiness with less benefit to the soul in the end.
please don't take these comments as an affront on swamiji but i would to get your opinion on them...
Vj ~ Not to worry, it would have never been a bother to the swami. Again, seek to acquire the discriminating intellect where you can be in control of your emotions. Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 6
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Hello Ananthan - Saturday 3-Jul-1999
So you do not understand..
Vj ~ How would you know if I understand if you have no understanding?
Perspective Perspective...&
Vj ~ Sounds like a parrot
Words fail once more.
Vj ~ Only if those are the only words taught to the parrot.
The words said are not necessarily the words read.
Vj ~ Reading is not necessarily understanding, but reasoning is.
Wise were the sages indeed
Vj ~ You must be wise yourself or even wiser to know that they were wise.
Hell Ananthan - Sunday 4-Jul-1999
Raaak--So what is the meaning? Raaaak
Vj ~ Know the meaning of the Satyartha Prakasha (Light of Truth) and then you would hardly want to know the meaning of another word
Anyway I know that you did not understand because your reply stemmed from a misunderstanding. At least you understood a small part of it though. (the "reading" part--unless omitting the "not" after "is" was not a typo) Good.
Vj ~ It was a typo the "not" is obviously missing which means you are not doing too bad after all.
At any rate what shall we discuss? I have to say that your forum fascinates me.
Vj ~ It is perhaps an inner quest for truth that you found fascinating. A very good start for you.
There are few like it. You and the other participants have much zeal though some of it (as I said earlier) is misplaced.
Vj ~ Then join me in this search of finding what is misplaced.
;Hmmm...I'm sure we'll find something. Till then
Vj ~ I have and I am now awaiting you to seek it for yourself.
Dialogue 7
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Hello Ananthan - Wednesday 7-Jul-1999
Sounds like an invitation to me.
Vj ~ How fortunate it is for some!
You know what I have been discussing with a number of Indian philosophers was, the strange incidents that took place all over India a couple years ago.
Vj ~ The world has never been in any shortage of strange incidents my friend. Benny Hinn healed the crippled and make the blind see everyday on television. They are call miracles, food for the gullible souls.
I'm sure you've heard of them and have thought over them as well.
Vj ~ Actually, the wise do not ponder over ignorance.
I'm speaking of the incidents of the Ganesha (and other) murtis "drinking" offerings of milk from the hands (spoons) of devotees.
Vj ~ It is the law of nature also, that whatever eats and/or drinks must excrete waste matter. You figure the rest out.
Though this incident may seem like a triviality I find it quite significant especially because of the fact that they are yet to be "explained scientifically" (I should know because I myself have had many years of science training).
Vj ~ It is better to spend your years learning of the immutable laws of nature and its operations. It will teach you that all such incidents, scientific and theological, as that have an explanation and there is no such thing as a miracle.
I've had some very interesting discussions revolving around this incident. What are your views?
Vj ~ It was obvious that not all the Ganesha drank milk, only those made at a certain time and with a certain mixture of material. It is obvious that the materials' contents after curing had something to do with the milk. Whatever the explanations are it cannot be a divine act or miracle.
Let's roll the ball on this one.
Vj ~ I hope you come up a winner someday.
hello Ananthan - Thursday 8-Jul-1999
Correct you would be if the scenarios of which you spoke were exclusively those which were present. But the interesting thing was that the same murti would drink at one time and not drink the same concoction at a different time.
Vj ~ Maybe it was the time it needed so that it is dried up enough to repeat. Like a blotting paper, it can suck up so much ink, but when it dries up, it is readied again.
Osmotic pressure and capillary effect differences during the course of one day are not significant enough to explain this.
Vj ~ There is lot more than that, that science cannot explain; the only difference is that the object was representing a deity. Had it been some stone in the woods no one have cared two hoots about whether it was a divine act or not.
Dialogue 8
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Hello Ananthan - Friday 9-Jul-1999
Looks like we have discussion going. My expectations are being met Lucky for you. You bring up an interesting question.
Vj ~ And you haven't check my other boards yet.
What do you define as "divine?" Many define it as that which cannot be explained (i.e. by science).
Vj ~ The company of the wise are few, so it is very true, the "many" (majority) cannot really define it.
And truly in the early days of man many, many things were considered divine.
Vj ~ How early are you talking about?
Giving birth for example was considered divine. But as "science" slowly began to "explain" things--certain processes--those things ceased to be "divine."
Vj ~ And when you and science do come to know the Divine, even pain and misery are also divine (justice), reminding us of the cause by acquiring the correct knowledge.
A better word than explain perhaps (especially nowadays) is "accept."
Vj ~ Or belief opposed to reasoning
When mainstream science (whichever system of science one follows) "accepts" certain processes they cease to be "divine" (or "awesome"). Is this what you mean by divine?
Vj ~ “Acceptance" or “belief “, in harmony with reasoning and science, and in conformity with natural laws, is divine.
In that case then these incidents were "divine" (as science cannot explain them) as would be an uncarved stone in the woods doing the same thing.
Vj ~ When I mentioned a divine act I meant a personal intervention or an anthropomorphic God. There is no such intervention or incidents even if science can't explain it.
Others define "divine" as "godly." In our context "god" is truth--it is one the imminent and transcendent.
Vj ~ The "self" must attained the realized state (through Yoga) only then the Divine can be truly explained, not to anyone else but the "self". ‘’No tongue can express that bliss which flows from communion with the Supreme Spirit into the soul of that man whose impurities are washed off by the practice of yoga whose mind being abstracted from the outside world is centered in the Supreme Spirit; because that happiness is felt by the human soul in its inner self alone.” Upanishad
So in that case EVERYTHING is "divine"-- whether or not it can be "explained." The mere fact that anything "is" (take that word both literally and figuratively--words again) is divine.
Vj ~ Literally speaking yes all things are divine, but it can only affect the human soul by the practice of the correct knowledge, until then it is all a guessing game between man, God and science.
So your saying "it is not a divine act" has little meaning. Yes? No? Whattaya think?
Vj ~ Actions of God, whatever they are, are divine, but to understand His Divinity, one must conform one’s nature, attributes and characteristics to that of His, through the practice of Yoga. In other words, He is All-pure, so must one become pure; He is all-wise so must one acquire His knowledge (the Vedas) to become wise. God cannot breach His own laws, and since miracles of that you brought up breach the immutable laws of nature, it can never be a divine act.
Dialogue 29
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Hello Ananthan - Saturday 10-Jul-1999
'...a personal intervention or (by?) an anthropomorphic God...'
Vj ~ Never! It would be a breach to the attributes of His Omniscient and Omnipresent power.
But what of an "intervention" (action) by a "living" being superior to us "human" (but who is on the same truth-realization path that we are)?
Vj ~ If there is such a "being superior to us" he would be Sai Baba or Maitreya like Jesus, Muhammad, etc all hypocrites, lords of fools, born to cause more divisions among mankind.
Not a divine act to the universe but (perhaps) a divine act to man a creature who tends to worship that which is above his (physical) capabilities. Do you know what I mean?
Vj ~ I know what you mean but it is not the place of an Omnipotent power to steep that low to appease the beliefs of fools. There is one God and one path to Him and no one, no matter how foolish or intelligent, can never realized Him without the knowledge of the Vedas. Any other acts that breaches this knowledge is completely false. It would be an ignorant human being who would stoop to such a degrading situation to perform a miracle or magic to convince anyone of some supernatural force. And don't expect the same from a God who is All-wise. If you are truly looking for a divine act, it is the one I am engaged in right now, disseminating Vedic knowledge to rid mankind of pain and suffering.
Hello Ananthan - Sunday 11-Jul-1999
An interesting reaction and viewpoint.
Vj ~ -And we have only just begun.
Although such an "intervention" by an ecologically/evolutionary/physiologically superior being could also be looked upon as some sort of "wake up call" (if you will) to those (humans) who know no spirituality what-so-ever.
Vj ~ It would be better if such "wake up call" never existed since it only leads to mental thralldom. "It is better to be an atheist than a hypocrite." Swami Vevekanand.
So as to say "look to other things besides the worldly and ego-based"? This "looking" is after all the catalyst to the search for ultimate truth
Vj ~ Be inquisitive in your search always never fail or fear to question anything no matter how foolish it may sound. It is the only way to sound reasoning. The effort alone in this direction is an advancement to the ultimate truth.
Dialogue 10
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Hello Ananthan - Monday 12-Jul-1999
Vj ~ Maybe, since there are only a very few that are not?
I would say it is better to be ignorant while knowing that you are "missing" something than being ignorant two times over.
Vj ~ It is better to deny God within reason and still live a good life than to be an idiot believing you know a God who will forgive you, whenever you ask for it.
In the case of the former there are directions to be had (and headed) whereas in the latter there is stagnancy.
Vj ~ It is a direction where critical thinking is denied whilst the latter is at least a direction to the path it is permitted. Reasoning is far superior to a faith without reasoning.
"It is better to swim in a direction unknown than to float into certain darkness." Swami Chinmayananda
Vj ~ True, but it is the atheists that explore the unknown while the faithful are floating in certain darkness awaiting the free hand (effortless gift) of salvation.
Agreed. Empiricism is the first thing the teacher can advocate.
Vj ~ It is still a failure without the correct knowledge. The inquisitive mind is the correct practice of reasoning even in the absence of the correct knowledge. It is not practice, but the correct practice that makes perfect, when seeking the one true God.
Dialogue 11
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Hello Ananthan -Tuesday 13-Jul-1999
You are right it is better to empirically deny the existence of God.
Vj ~ Until, it is thoroughly and impartial investigated. But worse off are those who have no concept of God or truth whatsoever (except the Lord/truth called wealth and material and ego).
Vj ~ Maybe so, but their contribution to nations by wealth, science and proper organization are tremendously worthwhile actions than merely glorifying a false God in destitution.
Though you may or may not see it there are merits to believing in "God." (Merits that put theists above the materialists.)
Vj ~ But yet, not great enough to surpass the humanitarian efforts of wealth. It is the rich, who always have something to give. Belief in God alone is like keeping one in suspended animation, there is no incentive to put the intellect to work. What merit is there when the soul is relegated to further pain and misery?
This belief in a God leads to the destruction of the ego universal love compassion and material renunciation-
Vj ~ Belief leads to ignorance where the soul is caged in misery. It is faith in harmony with reasoning that leads to renunciation. Until then materialists excel in goodness in what their wealth and science can do for the human race.
All things that the mind must embrace to begin to learn the Absolute Truth of the Vedas.
Vj ~ One must first abandon ready belief before venturing into the path to the Absolute Truth of the Vedas. In other words, one must first become an atheist because one has to first one’s a false God before one can ingrain the proper reasoning habits.
So though Theists may not grasp Truth (the truth of the timeless formless changeless absolute Brahman) they do have the virtues that will serve as the breeding grounds for truth-realization.
Vj ~ Not what the Vedas said:- "ANDHANTAMAHA PRAVISHINTI YE SAM BHOOTIM UPAASATE
TATO BHUYA EWAA TATE TAMO YAHOO SAM BHOOTYAAM RATAH. Those who worship matter are sunk in ignorance and those who worship things born of a matter (idols humans etc.) are sunk into deeper depth of misery. If truth (by reasoning not devotion) is not realized in this birth it would be misery in the next life.
Materialists (the stagnant) are stuck (literally) with neither.
Vj ~ They have reasoning and the goodness of their wealth. These actions are more hopeful prospects of acquiring the correct knowledge. It is the theist of false religions that is stagnant since they are enslaved by a static intellect.
These are the merits of Theism.
Vj ~ More like demerits to me.
Adi Shamkaracharya himself saw this when he found that his own mother had not the ability to grasp the Truth but could prepare her "mind" for future (birth) realization by revering the characters of the Epics and their actions/characteristics.
Vj ~ Adi Shamkaracharya should have known that the motherhood quality of giving birth and serving a ‘wise’ son was blessings enough to give her a better future even if she hadn't the ability to grasp the Truth. He should have been more concern for the world rather than his mother who was better off.
On the path to truth anything can serve as a tool for true learning.
Vj ~ The path is only a functional intellect one step up from a static intellect and "anything" can be dangerous to true learning also without the proper guidance. Only on the "right path" a discriminating intellect anything can serve as a tool for true learning. In other words, know what is right and what is wrong before attempting anything else.
Dialogue 12
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Hello Ananthan - Tuesday 13-Jul-1999
You are right it is better to empirically deny the existence of God.
Vj ~ Until it is thoroughly and impartially investigated before acceptance or rejection.
But worse off are those who have no concept of God or truth whatsoever (except the Lord/truth called wealth and material and ego).
Vj ~ Maybe so, but their contribution to nations by wealth science and proper organization are tremendously worthwhile actions than merely glorifying a false God in destitution.
Though you may or may not see it there are merits to believing in "God." (Merits that put theists above the materialists.)
Vj ~ Still not good enough to surpass the humanitarian efforts of wealth keeping in mind that it is the rich that always have something to give.
This belief in a God leads to the destruction of the ego universal love compassion and material renunciation
Vj ~ Belief leads to ignorance where the soul is caged in misery. It is faith in harmony with reasoning that leads to renunciation. Until then materialists excel in goodness by sharing their wealth and by reasoning in science a great contribution to the human race.
All things that the mind must embrace to begin to learn the Absolute Truth of the Vedas.
Vj ~ One must first abandon ready belief before accepting the Absolute Truth of the Vedas. In other words one must first become an atheist by renouncing a false God before one can enter into proper reasoning habits.
So though Theists may not grasp Truth (the truth of the timeless formless changeless absolute Brahman) they do have the virtues that will serve as the breeding grounds for truth-realization.
Vj ~ Not what the Vedas said:- "ANDHANTAMAHA PRAVISHINTI YE SAM BHOOTIM UPAASATE
TATO BHUYA EWAA TATE TAMO YAHOO SAM BHOOTYAAM RATAH."Those who worship matter are sunk in ignorance and those who worship things born of a matter (idols humans etc.) are sunk into deeper depth of misery. If truth (by reasoning not devotion) is not realized in this birth it would be misery in the next life.
Materialists (the stagnants) are stuck (literally) with neither.
Vj ~ They have reasoning and the goodness of their wealth. These actions are more hopeful prospects of acquiring the correct knowledge. It is the theist of false religions, that is, stagnant since they are enslaved by a static intellect.
These are the merits of Theism.
Vj ~ More like demerits
Adi Shamkaracharya himself saw this when he found that his own mother had not the ability to grasp the Truth but could prepare her "mind" for future (birth) realization by revering the characters of the Epics and their actions/characteristics
Vj ~ Adi Shamkaracharya should have known that the motherhood quality of serving a wise son was blessings enough to give her a better future even if she hadn't the ability to grasp the Truth. The nature of wise men is to put the world before next of kin.
On the path to truth anything can serve as a tool for true learning.
Vj ~ The path is only a functional intellect one step up from a static intellect and "anything" can be dangerous to true learning. Only on the "right path" a discriminating intellect, anything can serve as a tool for true learning. In other words, know what is right and what is wrong before attempting anything.
Dialogue 13
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Hello Ananthan - Wednesday 14-Jul-1999
So you are saying that someone like Donald Trump has given more to the world than someone like Mother Teresa? Needless to say, I disagree.
Vj ~ Here is where a discriminating intellect (me) and a static one (you) differs. Mother Theresa was no doubt a kind woman but any attempt of showing kindness while indoctrinating false religion leads those souls to further damnation and deeper misery for her own. Again by caring for them, all she did was prolonging their miseries since they live longer to show contempt for true religion with her guidance. On the other hand, Donald Trump whatever he is by faith is his own choice but yet his wealth created jobs and perhaps millions given to charity without any personal indoctrination of a single soul. His sin is definitely lesser than that of Mother Theresa.
True wealth and mercantilism and capitalism have created many "grand" things in this world...skyscrapers research labs the internet. This is one side of the coin (no pun intended).
Vj ~ It is all part of God's creation for us to enjoy but with contentment in mind.
On the other side "wealth" has also helped destroy this world. Poverty only exists because wealth exists.
Vj ~ Not more than false religion,Both conditions exist since souls must return in them to reap the fruits of their actions good and bad. It is our past actions, that have created such conditions and will be our present actions that would determine future conditions. In wealth we must acquire to the correct knowledge to know why we were born in it and in poverty the same to know why we are born in suffering.
Capitalism (for example) has also created famine in Africa disease overpopulation in Asia destruction of nature in South America and a loss of humanity in the very West that gave birth to it.
Vj ~ No one suffers unjustly since God is just. Whatever the conditions are that is the reward or punishment for the soul. It is our goal to seek the right knowledge to get us out of suffering and towards the path perpetual happiness even though some will have to work harder while some may never make it, compulsion being so. It is neither Capitalism nor Socialism that is responsible but the lack of true knowledge.
When you worship wealth you may think you worship progress and global improvement but you also worship poverty and suffering and destruction. This is the truth (again no pun intended) of materialism. It is the very truth of desire.
Vj ~ When you worship the one true God of the Vedas you can find happiness in both wealth and poverty.
When you say "humanitarian efforts of wealth" it is an oxy-moron. People do things either for the sake of wealth or for the sake of humanitarianism. Humanitarians use what wealth they have for the sake--and only for the sake of--improving the human condition. The fruit of this type of action is spiritual upliftment of both the actor (humanitarian) and those whom s/he helps.
Vj ~ If one cannot uplift oneself spiritually by the true knowledge of the Vedas there is very little one can do for oneself, much less others one is unselfishly trying to help.
Materialists use their wealth for the sake of profit and self-betterment (even if they happen to help others while doing it). This type of action regardless of the external benefits drives the actor deeper into the depths of his imposing ego.
Vj ~ But at least they are not tirelessly engaged in brain-washing the free-born soul. This is the greatest sin of all since one tend to live out one’s lifetime in the worship of a false God.
What does this mean for the reincarnation? The former--the humanitarian whether Theist or Atheist--benefits from a rebirth more suitable for truth-realization.
Vj ~ Not if he/she are engaged in the practice of false dogmas.
The materialist on the other hand--Neither theist nor atheist (worshipper only of material)--adds another layer to the seed that is his/her ego and is reborn to a less "suitable" birth.
Vj ~ Maybe, but his/her chance, than those already brain-washed, of finding the truth with a functional intellect is by far a possibility.
Here we learn the truth that internalized karma is far more potent and influential (if you will) than the karma of external action (if such a thing exists in practicality). The ego-less man who helps one (if any) will advance in birth while the ego-ridden man who helps millions will not. Karma.
Vj ~ It does not matter how much they have helped one or millions, in the absence of true knowledge all souls loose.
This brings us to the point about Adi Shamkaracharya and his mother. He knew that higher rebirth comes not merely from "serving a wise son " but by renouncing the ego (which is what a true mother does to raise her children)--a quality that is affirmed and expanded again and again in the Great Epics (etc.).
Vj ~ Then how could his mother have renounced the ego, without the ability to grasp truth?
Dialogue 14
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Hello Ananthan - Thursday 15-Jul-1999
Careful when you excercise your intellect Vijai.
Vj ~ Why, is it that painful to the credulous?
These points: Theism is not the only thing that can (and is) indoctrinated Thoughtless One.
Vj ~ I know, but it is the most dangerous one when it comes to the issue of brainwashing the free-born intellect.
Materialism has been indoctrinated by so many in this world far more aggressively and ubiquitously than is/was any religion.
Vj ~ So why are the majority in poverty, rejection of materialism?
Undeniable. Remember this when you "weigh sin." (On this note let us also remember that capitalism and socialism ARE the absence of true knowledge.) ALL indoctrinations (in the present-day usage of the word) disable the intellect.
Vj ~ Most certainly, but still a lesser crime than false dogmas curbing the free-thought of the free-born soul.
Let us also remember that karma is an issue only for those who have not yet realized Brahman.
Vj ~ Karma is an issue for all, even the realized can become unrealized at sometime.
Those who have achieved realization are free from the reigns of karma.
Vj ~ True, but for how long? Our actions are finite and thus no soul can ever reap eternal rewards or punishment. Even a realized soul must return to a physical body after the the period of emancipation.
Karma is for those who live still in the world of separateness.
Vj ~ But since you know not of anyone who is in a realized state then all the world is in separateness and is subjected to karma.
The key therefore, for those who are yet to find the truth is progression.
Vj ~ Progression to what? What is the source of this truth and where does one start?
For those who know not of the truth levels of progression (degression) exist. These levels depend on the level of imposition of the ego.
Vj ~ And what are the results of these levels of impositions?
This should answer your concluding question.
Vj ~ Actually it is not an answer to my question since I still don't know where you want me to begin seeking progression.
Dialogue 15
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Hello Ananthan - Saturday 17-Jul-1999
I am not convinced that materialism is a "lesser crime" than theism just as you are not convinced of the contrary.
Vj ~ May be you will, if you can try reading the Light of Truth There are more of theists than materialist and it is the majority is afflicted with pain and sufferings. Doesn't that tell you something.
My succinct point on this issue is that because all indoctrinating ideas impede the intellect (and one can't say that theism does this more so than materialism) the "greater evil" (although I don't like that word "evil") is the one that promotes ego-based self-satisfaction-- namely materialism.
Vj ~ Materialism strives on the weaknesses of false religions. Had true religion not been abandoned mankind would have been less to be attached to.
And by the way the majority of the world is in poverty because the greater majority of the world accepts and abides by materialism.
Vj ~ Or perhaps religions have become materialistic also. Which religion in the world does not spend billions or millions in huge decorative and inexpensive monuments to display its spiritual might in order to attract the gullible followers?
I do suppose we agree that both groups in question have more to learn--as "we" all do.
Vj ~ The question is, where do we look for the correct knowledge for proper guidance?
But to answer your other questions: Perhaps it would be easier if I pointed out that you illustrated my point yourself in this last post. Those in the karmic realm (as you understood the whole world) must progress towards finding the truth carefully deliberately peeling away at the seed that is the ego.
Vj ~ Well to be inquisitive is not a bad start since reasoning is the first step, but then the correct knowledge must be there to guide that reasoning.
Progressively renouncing the ego in short. But there are undefined levels of this progression. One does not for example renounce his/her ego (in any genuine way) completely and in one shot. It usually happens scenario by scenario for example as according to various stations in life (such as parenthood)--layer by layer.
Vj ~ Renouncing the ego can only be done through the practice of Yoga. One must first abandon whatever one has acquired through false religion to let in the spirit of good reasoning in order to determine what is truth and what is false. If this step is not taken in this birth, then the soul is apt to fall into deeper pains in the next birth.
Turning to Shamkaracharya's mother he knew that some of the devotional aspects of her religion helped guide her through some of these scenarios which are opportunities to peel away the ego. This in short, is how the ego can be renounced progressively without complete truth-realization.
Vj ~ Devotion in the absence of knowledge alone cannot elevate the soul. Billions are devoted to a false God so what blessings can that be to the soul?
Dialogue 16
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Hello Ananthan - Sunday 18-Jul-1999
There are far more materialists than theists--far more.
Vj ~ Let us not loose track of atheism whom you have branded as materialists. They are fewer than theists and very rational in their thinking.
I think you're reaching a bit here Vijai. And in this attempt I see that you have strengthened my point.
Vj ~ Maybe not, considering who the materialists are, when you first started out?
I think you're reaching a bit here Vijai. And in this attempt I see that you have strengthened my point. You asserted that millions are in poverty because "religion has become materialistic."
Vj ~ My assertion is that any theist that are materialistic is so because their religions have no way of bringing them contentment.
So it is not the theistic core philosophy of many religions that causes the greatest suffering and ignorance but the deterioration of these religions (or prominent practitioners of these religions to be more precise) into materialism.
Vj ~ When a religion is already false, what can it further deteriorate to?
From your own mouth. Point proven. (I think you just have to examine your own thoughts and words again.)
Vj ~ Maybe or it could be your misconception of true religion. Until you can determine the source of truth, then even yours have failed you
But as far as ego-renunciation goes I do not completely agree with you. There is a point to which the ego can be sacrificed without the presence of complete knowledge after that point yes greater knowledge is required. Remember layer by layer
Vj ~ So how would this foster a higher birth if the greater knowledge has not been acquired in this life?
Dialogue 17
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Hello Ananthan - Monday 19-Jul-1999
Replace "greater" with "true" and you reach what has been my point all along. Progression to absolute. I'm glad you reached in your words at least. Keep thinking though.
Vj ~ A agree with slow or active progression of knowledge also but what is your source of this truth or absolute?
As far as materialism goes it seems you have misunderstood once again. I never said all atheists were materialists.
Vj ~ Nor did I say they were. The discussion began with the statement of "It is better be an atheist than a hypocrite." You were the one who made materialist out them.
Atheists CAN (and quite often are) materialists--but not necessarily. (For example remember when I mentioned atheistic humanists?? And atheistic spiritual empiricists??) Furthermore no completely rational atheist could be a materialist nor could a TRUE theist. Materialists are in a class unto themselves.
Vj ~ It doesn't matter who is a materialists or not but the question still remains that a rational atheist is in a better position to know the true God than the credulous of any faith or religion.
So again, please think and write more carefully.
Vj ~ I did, perhaps you should read more carefully.Hello Ananthan -Tuesday 20-Jul-1999
You said (quoted) "It is better to be an atheist than a hypocrite (i.e. theist)." I responded by saying that it is better to be a theist than a materialist. That's all--plain and simple.
Vj ~ It is not that plain and simple. Whom do you consider a theist? One who believe in any God one feel comfortable with or one who knows the one true God? Again are there no theist that are also materialist?
You ask what is the source of the truth/absolute? The truth pervades without and imminates within us we just have to find it.
Vj ~ If it is within us then what is the necessity of revelation – revealed knowledge?
How? We find it by slowly peeling away the illusion of separateness (i.e. the ego etc.) through yoga.
Vj ~ But to begin the practice of Yoga one must first become acquainted with the correct knowledge. Where would you look for this knowledge?
Yoga in ALL its forms that is (including at an eventual stage meditation). I think we are in agreement here?
Vj ~ Not if you don't know the source of true reasoning.
Dialogue 18
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Hello Ananthan - Wednesday 21-Jul-1999
Well...I define a theist as one who genuinely believes in a God.
Vj ~ Does this mean a fool who "genuinely" believe in God, the only requirement for belief, is better off than a materialist who constantly strive for wealth and as a result can contribute more to society?
By "God" I mean a supreme being with a personality character etc.
Vj ~ There are many Gods of such "personality character etc" which one are you referring to?
(In short one who believes in the common concept of God.)
Vj ~ What is this common concept of God?
By this definition the "one true God" of the Vedas Upanishads etc. is indeed not a "God."
Vj ~ Really but the knowledge of Yoga which you earlier state one must practice for enlightenment was revealed by this God.
So true Vedists are not theists in this common definition. By God it is that simple!
Vj ~ What you have now made simple is that you are a confused idiot.
The necessity of revelation is to find (i.e. uncover) the truth within and without us.
Vj ~ How can you find truth without yourself? Then by your reasoning even a mad man, who is not himself, can find truth.
The methods by which to come closer to revealing this truth is found in our scriptures (Veda Upanishad etc.).
Vj ~ How can it be when one is not a theist by this scripture?
Finding the knowledge by which to find the knowledge that leads to finding the truth.
Vj ~ You must be a full fledged Yogi by now since you know how to find this truth.Hello Ananthan - Friday 23-Jul-1999
One more thing...&
Vj ~ I hope for your sake it is not the final question.
Do you really believe that God (Brahman Vedic God) actually "acts" and/or "does"?
Vj ~ How else can you explain the adversities (pain and misery) all around us? It is His Divine act of dispensing justice as punishment for all those who have rejected the true religion of the Vedas. Even those who are enjoying great wealth (luxury) must also wonder why they are so well rewarded otherwise they too will suffer the consequences.
Dialogue 19
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Hello Ananthan - Saturday 24-Jul-1999
No no; you misunderstand.
Vj ~ Obviously I shouldn't expect you to understand.
you believe that Brahman "DOES" things.
Vj ~ If you mean the murti (idol) Ganesha drinking milk or virgin Mary weeps blood no. Any action that breaches the immutable laws of nature cannot be an act of God.
This question came up as I was reading "Satya Prakasha.
Vj ~ The answer should also be there, but if you are seeking an answer from me, it simply means you didn’t understand what you were reading.
And for both our sakes it will not be my last question.
Vj ~ I see it as for your sake and not mine.
(Instead of "hoping " a more effective POE would be to think and answer and discuss. Make certain through your actions.)
Vj ~ So far my actions are in harmony with my knowledge and if they are otherwise I certainly hope you can point it out to me.Hello Ananthan - Sunday 25-Jul-1999
Actually no. I did on the other hand expect you to understand
Vj ~ Expect me to understand that Ganesha drinking milk is some divine act of God. This is how your conversation started.
but allow me to clarify.
Vj ~ Well now your shifting to being sensible.
By my question as to God "doing" I was refering to many passages in the Swami's and your writing such as "God punishes..." and "God loves..." and "God desires for his creation...".
Vj ~ God punishes - His justice for sinful actions; God loves - His justice for virtuous actions and that no one gets more or less than what they deserve; and God desires - like a Father and Mother who desire the best for their children, so is God the Great Father or Mother of all creation desires good for all. God is All-bliss and as such He has no desire meaning that desire or not it does not affect His blissful state.
This type of language--more so in your rhetoric than the Swami's--seems to lead the reader away from the Vedic concept of a unified truth that is "God."
Vj ~ Then again if the reader does not ingrain the proper reasoning habits (by the correct knowledge) he will never come out of ignorance to recognize whether he is misled or not.Monday 26-Jul-1999
I see. Interesting. Well I don't think God "does" things. But shall we pick that point up later. Well I must say that I have enjoyed our discussion a great deal. I always enjoy learning. I will be out of country starting tomorrow so I will have to sign off from the conversation at this point. But I would like to thank you for indulging me with your time. When I return may we start up again. Best wishes to you Vijai
Dialogue 20
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Namaste vinita - Wednesday 28-Jul-1999
Om. Nameste Vijai Bhai your home page is an inspiration. Keep up the good work!!
Vj ~ Thank you Vinita, I had no intention of it doing otherwise.
There is however one thing that bothers me about it and our movement in general.
Vj ~ There is a lot of things that bothers me of the movement itself, but from where I am standing, I far above them.
This may well be because of a lack of true understanding so please enlighten me
Vj ~ It will be a pleasure.
Relentless criticism soul searching leading to the awakening of the soul and the intellect has done much to edify and improve the world in which we are living in.
Vj ~ In my opinion the relentless criticism that exists in earlier years of this movement has completely lost its strength except for a very few like myself.
Swami Dayanand and people like you should be lauded for your invaluable service to mankind.
Vj ~ Only the wise though, would recognize the virtue in such good works.
However the reaction I often get from non Arya Samajists about our ideals and philosophy is more often than not negative rather than positive.
Vj ~ If you mean positive, then either a compromise has been made or those non-aryas are somewhat intelligent. I am truly in doubt of the latter.
Alongside being branded as 'fundamentalists' and 'bigots' our movement is judged to be too cerebral.
Vj ~ It only shows that a better life to come or emancipation is not just a simple gift, but an obvious demand of continuous and strenuous individual practice through Yoga.
Those used to equating Eastern spirituality with irrational but comforting mysticism are turned off by the cold (but correct) reasoning of the Swami in Satyarth Prakash.
Vj ~ Compulsion being so, we cannot change that. It will be an ideal time for you to read the other comments to Ashegan on this board. We are also dealing with the same subject.
It's no wonder that these people find solace instead in the Hare Krishna movement and the like which purport to offer a 'vedic' place of rest in a realm beyond the intellect i.e one dictated by the heart.
Vj ~ Very true, these intellects have become static and a very few can be nurtured back to our truth. It is a very slow process but don't savor high hopes of freeing the whole world in Kaliyug.
Our philosophy in it's harsh realism smacks too much of the 'cold' 'heartless' even (what they perceive to be)'Godless' world that they are trying to run away from.
Vj ~ It is more like purity and conviction of the soul, what is good for you is good for the world and what is painful to you is painful to others. This may seem selfish but if one cannot experience perpetual happiness, there is nothing one can do make others happy.
Now I am not calling for a watering down of any of the tenets of our movement.
Vj ~ I would see it as a compromise or tolerance and it is even more harmful than not doing anything at all. Truth is one, and it can only be disseminated by exposing what is false.
The Satyarth Prakash should continue to be it's foundation.
Vj ~ It must always be the foundation; it is the sole purpose of a reformer and we must never deviate from his way.
But I really feel alongside incisive rational criticism (both very healthy and necessary to improve this world) our movement should place equal emphasis on the eternal Vedic message of love compassion and magnanimity that permeates and helps sustain the natural order that God has created.
Vj ~ In fact it does, there is no greater compassion and love for this creation (humans and animals alike) when the truth is expounded in such a vigorous way even though it may offend.
More references to Vedic scripture reflecting this message and how we can practically apply it so that we can lead more wholesome lives i.e through meditational and yogic techniques doing yajna etc would paint a more accurate picture of what it means to be an Aryan and to follow true Vedic principles.
Vj ~ This application requires the effort to strive for the proper reasoning guided by practice of the correct knowledge. Today the movement of Arya Samaj is in disarray in the absence of this practice. If they are themselves a failure of their own culture, what can be expected for others.
We must continue to be ever vigilant and ready to dispel ignorance but let's not forget that our motivation should always be the love of God and everything that he created.
Vj ~ Truth has no other meaning and if God cannot cure a fool, don't expect the Swami's message do it.
I hope your homepage will place more emphasis on such motivations in the future lest we be branded as 'haters' rather than 'lovers' of God.
Vj ~ True knowledge and those who have atttained it have nothing to fear from those who want to do the branding. It is not subjected to blasphemy or desecration. It is pure and pleasantly rewarding for those who expound it without fear, comprise, emotion or sentiments for friends, family and the gullible.
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