Dialogue 1
Back to contents
Namaste Vinita - Wednesday 28-Jul-1999
I hope that you will continue to help spread the truth through your homepage
Vj ~ Is there any sign of me letting up somewhere? Please let me know when this occurs.
but also be ready to humbly acknowledge and openly accept a better reasoned argument based on the Vedas if and when it arises.
Vj ~ Whenever it reaches that stage, then I will humbly become your student.
(Which I'm sure you have already done and will continue to do. I'm convinced that one of the reasons why you set up this discussion forum was so that your knowledge could be cultivated too.)
Vj ~ In all respects, yes it is very true if there is a master I will become his/her student and if there are fools even then a wise man can draw wisdom (nectar) from a fool (poison).
There are a few questions that I would like to ask about your reply. Firstly, could you tell me what you meant by your comments about having doubts about the Arya Samaj movement and it having run out of intellectual critical steam?
Vj ~ I had been associated with Arya Samaj from childhood days and some how because of the wrangling among them I chose to become an atheist. Their behaviors must have been somewhat disturbing to have affected a fifteen year-old, but as I return to the fold some fifteen years later there didn’t seem to be any change as I soon found out through thorough studies and practice of this knowledge. It is with profound regret that I have found them to be distancing Samaj from its early origin of critical thinking, and trying to change them was hopeless. Again I beseeched you to read all my posts with Bhai Ashegan below as I have answered all these questions in my discussions with him.
I am very interested to know about the current philosophy and activities that the movement is engaged in.
Vj ~ Their activities are not geared to attract young people mostly because they are organized by those who have no proper training through a gurukul system. In this way they are slowly loosing our younger ones, while being helpless to those outside.
Who are the leading lights? What impression if any have we made on the 'non-Aryan' world at large?
Vj ~ We can be of little help to the inquisitive minds of our own much less those outside the Aryan fold, if we are not geared to have rational discussions of this philosophy, and without any compromise.
If you could draw up a list of areas for improvement what would it consist of?
Vj ~ There is no long list just applying thE 9th principle of the Arya Samaj with conviction.
Secondly as you may have noticed I've just used the term 'non-Aryan' to describe non-Arya Samajists. It is used often by us to describe anyone outside the movement. However many of these people (including myself) are Arya Samajists by birth only and practice very few of the Vedic ideals.
Vj ~ It is quite alright in making the distinction but we must always strive to become distinct not by affiliation but the knowledge itself.
I have met some 'non-Aryans' who seem more 'Aryan' then the aforementioned kind of people due to their kind deeds and words.
Vj ~ Deeds and words don't make an Aryan but the correct knowledge when practiced. I have also seen good people in my life giving all what they have to help the poor, but to what avail in the absence of true knowledge.
So don't you think that one step in the right direction for the movement would be the proper acquisition of the title 'Arya' through a formal examination assessed by a body of venerable Aryas?
Vj ~ They said, a little knowledge is very dangerous and this is the problem of Arya Samajists today. The more one practice the more one is apt to become humble and when this state is attained the ego is suppressed.
This could be judged perhaps on the following criteria: a) the daily performance of the five yajnas b)engagement in regular individual or community based philanthropic work alongside striving for material wealth by honest means. c) regular preaching and teaching of the Vedas to others d)mastery and/or diligent study of the Vedas Upanishad and the Sanskrit Hindi languages e)renunciation of pride lust greed egoistic tendencies gluttony and anger i.e a person with pronounced 'Sattvic' tendencies (I am sure that their are other criterion that I've forgotten to mention.) I think that until such a formal status is properly established as you quite rightly point out our movement will continue to be in disarray.
Vj ~ All these are good for sustenance and it is by the little of these that Arya Samaj is alive, but we seem to miss the real message of the Reformer. Since we are not born in a Gurukul system, we must strive diligently to become more and more inquisitive so that we can discuss our philosophy without fear. This means the "Light of Truth" and any other books pertaining to the life and teachings of Swami Dayanand must be our first priority. Reasoning guided by the practice of the correct knowledge is the rational base for logic needed for this goal.
Before we can honestly and openly preach to others reform must come from within. I was born in an 'Arya Samajist' family so I thank God that my parents have at least shown me part of the way. But I would be the first to admit that I would have great difficulty in passing such an examination.
Vj ~ Souls come with good inclinations (righteous actions of parents) ours seem not to be of the greatest inclinations but can be nurtured if taught the right way. On the other hand, there are those (the majority) who will never accept it. Compulsion being so.
So although I earnestly strive I am ashamed to say that I am not an Arya. Is there any hope for people like me, who want so badly to better themselves but are groping in the dark due to a lack of proper guidance?
Vj ~ Well here is your chance. Until now there is nothing to be ashamed of since you can look at it as the journey of trivialities in the absence of proper guidance. The past is destiny we can't change that, but activity is superior to destiny so your present activity to strive through this practice can best decide your future.
You may say read the Satyarth Prakash or other books by the Swami but what I think is badly needed for people like me is practical hands-on guidance in conjunction with the intellectual kind.
Vj ~ It is not only reading that makes us rational, but practice through contemplation of what was read. This knowledge requires moments of peace and tranquility (lots of time on a regular basis) to sit in communion to reason from what is right and what is wrong; after reading, asking questions to remove doubts is necessary. In other words, from a functional intellect we are striving for a discriminating one knowing truth from falsehood.
How did you obtain your Vedic knowledge in order to become a true Aryan?
Vj ~ I am yet to call myself a true Aryan, but it is my foremost quest at this time to become one, if not this birth, then most certainly the next.
Thirdly in response to my comment on the tendency for people nowadays to run to spiritual movements like the Hare Krishnas in search of spiritual mystical solace rather than resorting to liberating intellectual discrimination. You said that this was as a result of the intellect becoming static and that we could expect little else in Kaliyug. Again pardon my insolence I am sure you have a better grasp of what the Swami said then I have but didn't he say that time could not be classified.
Vj ~ Yes, he said that Kaliyug does not mean we are destine to failure, it is only a time for an age and that this knowledge is for all ages. He also said that if all follow this Dharma we can again achieve universal peace again. All this is true, but his ninth principle speaks of an individual prosperity also which means it is the only way we can experience Satyug in Kaliyug. When such a state is experienced by the individual he views the rest of the world and its adversities as God's Divine justice. Either way the wise finds contentment and this is what the Swami meant.
In this respect he leveled a lot of his criticism at the Sanatanists for being indolent and corrupt in their religious practices. By conveniently proclaiming that it was Kaliyug they duped(and still do)the gullible into such evils as idolatry on the basis that the formless worship of God was for people in 'Satyug' only.
Vj ~ The credulous ways of mankind must serve as a great lesson to the validity of the Vedic Dharma instead, in that, it is in conformity with the immutable laws of nature that even righteousness (Satyug or universality) is subjected to decay (Kaliyug or individual).
Don't you think that we should be wary of falling into the same kind of fatalistic trap and make every active effort to dispel ignorance? However granted this cannot be done until we are fully fledged Aryas ourselves. (See comments made above.)
Vj ~ Very true, active individual effort must begin with us first, only then we can be of benefit to others.
So less talk about other religions the semantics and the hair splitting.
Vj ~ Other religions fall into one category – false, and if we must ascertained truth by proper reasoning then it is necessary to discuss them.
Let's concentrate on making Indians from the Indian diaspora who have at least a vague notion of their Vedic heritage more Aryan. Then we can truly and sincerely talk about reforming this world.
Vj ~ It is better for you to concentrate on your own individual progress then you will have the wisdom to know that this knowledge is for all mankind and that none is first or last and if they are, it is their own fault. Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 2
Back to contents
Namaste Vinita - Thursday 29-Jul-1999
Thank you for you illuminating reply. I can't express how liberating it feels to be able at last to discuss such matters with another person that cares as passionately about the future of Vedic Dharma as I do.
Vj ~ The Vedic Dharma will always stand in its pristine glory, it is our future that is at stake here.
You wrote that we should concentrate on our own individual progress before attempting to help others.
Vj ~ This seems to be valid as the partially sighted should not attempt to lead the blind as there is the likelihood that both will fall into the abyss of confusion due to a lack of true knowledge. A good example of it, is asking one who is learning to swim to teach another to swim. Arya Samaj has gone cold by an attack of a plague called religious tolerance.
I continue to act meditate over my actions and then act according to the dictates of my conscience which eventually leads me to the right path.
Vj ~ My discussion boards are geared to help such aggressive individuals as yourself to acquire good reasoning habits. Make it a habit to read everyone of my posts, they are thought-provoking and very constructive, all under the good direction of the Light of Truth
But this is often after so much heartache and other trials and tribulations. Are there any true Gurus in this day and age who I could approach to help me avoid these life traps as best as possible? Do you have a Guru who teaches and helps you? Or is one's individual conscience our only true 'Guru' in these un Vedic times?.
Vj ~ The Guru is not the problem, but those who are lacking the will to seek this knowledge.
I am particularly interested in what you have to say on this subject as I am a 'teacher' and am ever mindful of the relevance and appropriateness of what I am 'teaching' my students.
Vj ~ There is a difference in being a teacher (professional or occupational) and an altruistic teacher. As the latter, there is no fear in expounding truth even though it might offend and bring you hardship. The reward is non-material. Namaste
Dialogue 3
Back to contents
Namaste Vinita - Sunday 1-Aug-1999
Thank you for your advice on one's individual conscience and Gurus.I'd like to continue corresponding with you by this forum in a few months time.
Vj ~ You are most welcome.
I'm going to be out of the country for a few months (I live in Japan and I'll be returning back to see family in the UK).There is one thing that I'd like you to mull over while I'm away.
Vj ~ Actually there is nothing to mull about since I have already given the answers. It is necessary to read it over again and ponder over it before coming to a conclusion. It is the only way to ingraining the proper reasoning.
I've read all your posts with Ashegan as you advised me to do. You both make many good points. With regards to race and karma I must say that although I agree that we acquire a particular body in accordance with the laws of karma the dictates of natural justice I cannot agree that people of African descent or other races apart from the Indian are inferior and have assumed their 'hideous' looking bodies due to their Karma.
Vj ~ Isn't the mentally retarded hideous also? Have you seen beautiful people scar for life by fire, acids, etc.? Besides being born of a hideous character, one can also acquire it in one's life time. It is all the punishment of sinful (karmic) actions (sinful). Hideous looks of people are not only common among Africans but also people of India and other continents and the truth is it is painful to those who are. Any looks or actions that causes pain, is the result of sin. (karma).
Remember real beauty (virtue) is in the eye of the beholder. It can be acquired by any race. God has endowed on all human beings the qualities of Sattva Rajas and Tamas.
Vj ~ And why can't you not infer that the same was done when it come to races also?
Through yoga anyone at any time in this or any creation can cultivate and sustain the sattavic qualities necessary to be deemed an Arya.
Vj ~ I never said they couldn't but they have fallen to the lowest and they must strive the hardest to be an Arya. The same for an Eskimo, born in a region where there are no vegetables. How is he going to be an Arya when survival requires killing? They are born in such conditions because of sinful karmic actions and has a longer or tedious journey to become an Arya. It would make perfect sense that this truth can be the only established reason to relieve them of their misery.
Now if it were not so why would Arjuna have married Ulopi from Paatal (North America) Dhritrastra Gandhari from Kandahaar (Afghanistan) and to refute your argument about Africans - Bhima Hidimba who was African. These people were more Aryan than you or me can ever hope to be in this lifetime so if they saw merit in marrying fellow Aryans from other races and didn't treat them any worse than their 'own kind' this is evidence of their magnanimity and dare I say it perhaps evidence against your too literal reading of the Swami's words.
Vj ~ At that time they were probably darker but had not fallen to their present hideous state (cannibalism). They could not have, because they were Aryas, still the conditions of righteousness.
Marriage being the ultimate test of acceptance of other races was in Vedic times conducted with frequency with people of different races. The Swami as you well know encouraged it to further understanding and knowledge of other parts of the world and ultimately to spread Vedic Dharma.
Vj ~ In the earliest Vedic age there could have been only one race since the different races came about by climatic conditions and sinful actions of this age. Swami Dayanand, on his subject of Dwijas (twice-born) even opposed inter-class marriages even among one race, not to mention inter-race marriages. And, it makes perfect sense too, since only a Brahmacharya, if he considers marriage, would wed a Brahmacharini. The purpose of such a marriage would strictly be to procreate and the offspring would be one of very high inclination.
I hope for the sake of making this world peaceful and Aryan once more that this practice will be taken up once again and adopted vigorously by the Arya Samaj especially in the 'developed' world.
Vj ~ It is not the practice of inter-race marriages that would benefit the world but the dissemination of theVedic philosophy.
If accompanied with the proper 'Shuddhi' (I shudder to use the word conversion. Too many bad connotations involving force here) ceremony to initiate the boy or girl into Vedic Dharma and education in the fundamentals of Vedic Dharma: Sandhya Homa and family/child rearing values this can be done.
Vj ~ Of course it can be done, but which boy or girl can be, if the parents lack the correct knowledge. There must be some righteousness to produce a soul with the right inclination to even begin the search for this truth.
If we are trying to reach out to our Indian 'Westernised' brethren we should also be trying to reach out to their non Indian friends with whom they probably share more in common and are more apt to want to marry.
Vj ~ We should first try with ourselves personally or individually before reaching out to anyone else. While you learning to swim never attempt to teach another how to swim. You may both drown.
I would advise that before we do this however that we abandon this warped and antiquated view that Indians by virtue of their birth are inherently superior.
Vj ~ I have never heard of an African Caucasian or Chinese Rishi yet have you? Let me know when you do. No sensible person would deny India its rightful place as the cradle of civilization and if you can't see the people (rishis, munis, yogis etc.) as superior to all then you also need to be educated. The ego of superiority is for the ignorant who uses it for selfish ends. But when one becomes wise one sees superiority in wisdom first to his own benefit and then to the world at large.
The soul has no label no nationality imprinted on it distinguishing it from others.
Vj ~ Far from the truth, the soul is labeled by virtue and sin and wherever the conditions of nationality, race, creed class, species, etc.) , rich or poor, healthy or diseased, etc. are best suited they are embodied as a result of those actions.
So please let's drop this irrational argument and adopt the truth that this whole world is God's creation and has the potential to achieve liberation.
Vj ~ The truth must be expounded, when what is false is exposed without fear of emotions or compromise, it is for the good of everyone, even though it may offend them. Only then, the potential of the soul to achieve liberation exists. Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 4
Back to contents
Namaste Ashegan - Friday 6-Aug-1999
i cannot express the joy of seeing another defend the vedic truth when so utterly surrounded by the idolaters...
Vj ~ It is this joy that becomes the motivational force for a rational mind, in its relentless search for this wisdom.
the isolation i felt with all these sanatanists must have been similar to what swamiji felt more than a century ago... it is indeed sad that we his heirs face the same clouded ignorance that he fought and died to destroy...
Vj ~ Absolutely, and yet there is so much joy in continuing his work. It shows that Vedic wisdom has no mercy for those who would reject it.
i realise it must be difficult vj to remain calm and collected when so many of these nastiks pour out their barrages of idolatrous insult...
Vj ~ A wise man is always calm and collected in spite of whom he may have come in contact with, but only fools may see it differently.
i admire you for your courage vj.. to defend what you believe in.. i pray that someday i will have the same fortitude to fight falsities as you do...
Vj ~ I have read all your posts and you are doing splendid also , more so your command of the English language is fantastic. Tread this path of reasoning by daily communion and Aasanas before sunrise and before you know it you will be there my friend.
namaste and dhanyavaad for coming to my rescue.
Vj ~ You are already saved, it is those idiots who must worry. Namaste.Namaste Ashegan - Friday 6-Aug-1999
'swami' vishal listed a number of swamiji's works in his post... have you also read them?
Vj ~ No I have not, but it is not necessary to know them to argue an idiot. And reading it without reason you can easily become a Hindu, as it did to ‘nastik’Vishal.
he claims the 'pratima' is supposed to be 'measure' and not idol... he quotes swamiji on this (yajurvedabhasya)... is that true?
Vj ~ Even though he is not a follower of the swami anymore, where would he have been without him? Swami warned of how dangerous a little knowledge can be without practical reasoning. Even if you prove him wrong on this point he would still find another million things to argue against.
do you yourself know any of the vedas by heart to confront them with the sanskrit they (idolators) throw around without understanding?
Vj ~ The mantras are meant for the soul's upliftment and it is foolish to argue over them without the proper reasoning habits especially with those who are void of it. The power of a discriminating intellect is good enough for now. On the other hand, if they could do any better than “throwing around” they would not have continued to worship idols.
it is an honor to count one of your learning as a teacher and a friend..
Vj ~ I am happy that you have made the effort to come instead of the teacher. Many like Vishal belong to the Arya Samaj and they are the ones who are responsible for the chaos within it. I am now memorizing or studying the Yoga Darshan because only now I consider myself ready for it. Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 5
Back to contents
Namaste Ashegan - Sunday 15-Aug-1999
i'm sorry i haven't posted for a while!
Vj ~ No problem whenever you can is fine with me. Have you tried the Aryasamaj board that I have linked to this site yet?
i have a question thats been bugging me lately -
Vj ~ It was a question I had also asked at one time in Arya Samaj, but never got the answer that I am about to give you.
we say we are followers of the vedas but none of us ever really reads the holy books themselves.
Vj ~ Let Vishal, an ex-arya samajee, be a good example of what can happen to the soul by reading a lot of our holy books. Right now, his only interest is showing the world how much he has read, enjoying his egoistic dream while depriving the soul. It is pretty obvious that without a discriminating intellect no holy book can be of benefit to the soul.
as christians do their bible or muslims the quran...
Vj ~ If we do like the Christians and Muslims then we become false like them. They have got nothing else and their scriptures breach natural laws where it shows neither righteousness in the beginning nor now, but sometime in the hereafter. In them, even a fool gains salvation, which leaves one to wonder what was the necessity for revelation.
perhaps it is the inaccessibility of the vedas that causes people to be devoid of true knowledge
Vj ~ Righteousness or Dharma in our faith has been subjected to decadence. From the beginning (realized intellect), where the Vedas was in liquid form and where mankind were already immerse in wisdom, to the periods (discriminating intellects) of the Brahmanas, Shastras, Upanishad, etc. where mankind required them because of further decay in intellect (leaving man to become inquisitive). From the ritualistic age (functional intellect), we have now come down to the age of aesthetics (perverted intellect) where art (idols), sports, music and other material entertainment become man’s craving for the relief of banality. So perverted our intellects have become that we were in need of a reformer to show us the way again. It is here we must start doing the reverse to get to the Vedas and then to self-realization for mukti. As long as we are on that path with a strong desire, then our future births will guarantee us mukti
shouldn't good translations of the veda be distributed to the public so people know what they actually teach?
Vj ~ All the mantras recited at yajnas etc. are Vedic which is enough to practice physical moral disciplines. The main objective is to ingrain the proper reasoning habits otherwise whatever few mantras we know can be useless to us.
and why don't arya parents start their children on memorizing the hymns from early on?
Vj ~ Arya parents are themselves at a lost to produce children with high inclinations, which only demonstrate how much we lack in practicing the knowledge we have attained. I am also guilty of the lack of such practice when my children were young, in spite of the effort my dad made to teach me in my childhood days. We are indeed in a genuine battle to keep Dharma going amidst the conditions (trials and tribulations) of Kaliyug; how far is total deterioration we in this generation face is not difficult to imagine by the learned. This is why I will continue to take whatever comes my way in a sensible and relaxing way, without being forceful in trying to grasp as much as I can without any benefit.
... is there anywhere on the net we can find arya translations of rigveda / yajurveda?? i'm sure there must be some veda bhashyas out there...
Vj ~
Vj ~ Not that I know of any, but right now it shouldn't be a priority since it (Vedas) is the last step (path) on our way up. Namaste, Vijai.
Dialogue 6
Back to contents
Namaste Ashegan -Monday 16-Aug-1999
i agree wholeheartedly that knowledge without a discriminating intellect can be pretty dangerous...
Vj ~ Then we are in agreement in what one must first do to become a true Aryan.
but how can we be misled when the veda has none of the untruths that are to be found in the puranas.
Vj ~ Very simple just ask Vishal who have read every works of Swami Dayanand, the shaatras, Upanishads and Vedas and yet on reading the Vishnu Purana, he became a Hindu again.
surely daily swadhyaya of the vedas or their bhasyas will be of immense benefit to one...
Vj ~ Certainly it would be, but one must be ready at that stage for self-realization where the Vedas is of benefit to the soul and not solely for debate.
i'm currently learning the rig veda by heart (i hope for your support in this venture)
Vj ~ I also have the Rig Veda in my possession but I haven't found the desire to memorize it. Simply because it would do me, an injustice since I have no knowledge of the Sanskrit language itself. You are quite young my friend and whatever is your desire follow it but always seek the true guidance of the Light of Truth or wise men.
but how will i know when my discriminating faculties are developed enough?
Vj ~ When the intense desire is there to wake up regularly at four or three or two O'clock in the morning in the practice of Yoga know that your discriminating faculties are developed enough. The logic of the Darshanas can be of greater help to one as young as you are in developing the faculties at a quicker pace. Namaste, Vijai.
Namaste Ashegan - Wednesday 18-Aug-1999
Vj ~ Well now that I have been banned from the "nastiks" message boards you are on your own. Good luck with the infidels. Oh what patience did our Swami excercise when his remaining years were surrounded with such idiots. No wonder he sought liberation of his soul before coming out to the world.
do you have any of the veda bhashyas in your possession also vj? i am trying to get the proper translations but having a bit of a problem right now... can you help
Vj ~ Yes the Rig Veda by Swami Dayanand. Need not worry my friend I don't see it as desperation. Try Arya Samaj Head quarters in New Delhi. Namaste Vijai.
Dialogue 7
Back to contents
Reply to 'hindu' by Ashegan - Thursday 19-Aug-1999
Hindu: Since when best help started to be offered in terms of insults and abuses?
A~ i might argue differently from vj... you are wrong to assume we would both have the same approach to our discussions.
Hindu: There was no satyuga during Swami Dayanand's time either. Your failure is due to your arrogance that only you understand Vedas only you know what is good for others. The moments anyone begins to think that he knows what is good for all, he becomes dictatorial.
A ~ since when is the sacrifice of harmless animals to a mother goddess good for others? since when is the belief that caste is determined by birth good for others? since when are decrees that sanction the godhood of priests human beings semi-humans etc be good for others? it is not i that think i know what is good for all. it is the rishis who came before me and whom i follow.
Hindu: If a dharma cannot be defended spiritually and philosophically on its own it must be de devoid of truth and hence cannot be defended with or without Vijai.
A ~ again a terribly misconstrued statement.. bhai you aren't understanding the spirit i'm writing in... if you know anything about me at all you will know that i'm a learner and still to fathom arya knowledge... i feel sorry for one who thinks the want of help by a youth in search of truth is a sign that his dharma is devoid of truth... less than 10% of the hindu teens i know have any idea of their religion.. is their faith also devoid of truth??
Hindu: There is no wisdom in admiring the courage used for unfairly attacking others. This is called prejudiced outlook and unholy alliance.
A ~ please give me an example or two of such 'unfair attacks' and i will comment
Hindu: The lesson is that ignorance can only be fought with knowledge not with abuses rhetoric and holier than thou attitude.
A ~ couldn't agree with you more... too bad we don't share the same idea of knowledge.
Hindu: There are many great arya pundits. But before you go to check the authenticity of Vishal's claim you must get rid of your prejudice that Vishal must be wrong. You must also be ready for the possibility that Vishal may be right. Otherwise you might just continue checking authenticity of one pundit by another until you find someone who satisfies your preconceived notions rather than telling the truth.
A ~ i am always ready to embrace truth and reject untruth... but right now i've only been given the sanatani side of the story and not the arya... how do i draw conclusions... is there any allusion to my lack of readiness to accept another possibility? as far as i know there can be one truth - lets see which one holds out...
Hindu: It is pathetic that you must confirm your loyalty whenever you raise a doubt. This is not Vedic/Upanishdic way of learning. Incessant and courageous search of Truth requires that one is willing to sacrifice even most dear false notions for truth. Are you ready to accept the possibility that your teacher may be wrong? Or you will sacrifice Truth for your loyalty to your teacher?
A ~ then would you sacrifice idolatry if you found out it is false? namaste
Dialogue 8
Back to contents
namaste hindu - Friday 20-Aug-1999
(why don't you use your real name instead of hiding behind your religion?)
Hindu: I referred to Vj. I do feel that a discussion with you might be more productive
A ~ glad to hear it... your resilience on this arya forum to our viewpoint will determine your truth as well.. you are brave to venture out without the rallying band of your fellow hindus...
Hindu: I am not particularly in favor of animal sacrifice. It makes sense if one campaigns against killing and torturing of animals altogether. It doesn't make sense to kill animals for food but oppose it if someone kills it for one's religious belief.
A ~ then you do not share the practices or beliefs of many who claim to be hindu... do you follow the same religion that they do? personally i think killing animals for food it is not in essence a sin as mankind has been doing it since ancient times but as manu writes :' there is no sin in eating meat... but its abstinence brings great fruit'.. i am vegetarian because it is tradition in my family not because of animal rights activists... the killing of animals in sacrifice to god is like returning a slain child to its mother in tribute... god already owns the animal and ourselves hence the killing of a creature to secure divine help or appease an angry god or just for tradition's sake is terribly faulty.
Hindu: Following the Law of Karma birth in a particular family in a particular situation with a particular samskar is due to the accumulated Karma of the jeeva prior to that birth. So even if the varna seems to be determined by birth birth itself into a particular varna is determined by one's own accumulated deeds. However if someone fails to live up to one's responsibility one must not continue to enjoy the benefits of his birth alone. That is where distortions entered the varna vyavastha.
A ~ by deeds one is a brahmin by deeds is one an outcaste... take birth out of it. one may be born to wicked parents but that doesn't mean one is destined to be wicked oneself... and vice versa. i thought the ideology above died out in swamiji's time...
Hindu: No such decree exists anymore.
A ~ tell that to your hindu brothers who pray to sai baba and other gurus and half-humans like narsingh and the pig-man in the puranas...
Hindu: Do you agree that the moment anyone begins to think that he knows what is good for all he becomes dictatorial?
A ~ as vj said then that'll have to apply to god himself...
Hindu: Then you should focus more on learning and less on defending what you are yet to learn.
A ~ i'm trying to do that... but there's little to learn from those that reject the veda.
Hindu: I didn't say that. I said that Truth can be defended on its own. If you can't defend truth it means you don't know it. Seek whatever help you can to know the truth. Seeking help to defend the truth while struggling to know what Truth is not going to work.
A ~ true... face me when i have mastered this truth if you don't wish to discuss now..
Hindu: if you see no unfair attacks no insulting attitude then you are fully awake and challenging me to wake you up.
A ~ do you mean the "idiot" references? that is his style of answering.. i cannot change that.
Hindu: We haven't started talking knowledge yet and you are already arming yourself with prejudices.
A ~ prejudice against what my teachers have proved to be ignorance
”as far as i know there can be one truth - lets see which one holds out..” Hindu: Let go all assumptions until you know the Truth.
A ~ assumptions that god is real and blissful that the veda is his word that doing good unto others is the noblest dharma?
“then would you sacrifice idolatry if you found out it is false?”
Hindu: Let me remind you that you didn't answer my question. To answer your question I have a completely different concept of Murti Puja than you. To me murtis are an intellectual and emotional aid to something that is most abstract reality easier to intellectualize but extremely difficult to realize. I have never considered murtis as an end in themselves. The day I come to the stage when I don't require murtis anymore I will have forgotten about them. In any case if I ever realize (note that realization involves reason and something higher perception) that murti puja is useless (the word false is absurd) I will not hesitate for a moment to get rid of them. And I will not call that a 'sacrifice' either.
A ~ when you look at the world the bounty of creation the precision in which each living thing exists and functions - don't you get the thought of the almighty? why does a small metal statue with four hands and jewelry remind you of something which is always right before you? hindu it is good you have decided to air your views on this forum where you cannot be banned for disagreeing with us... i wish you luck if your intention in coming here was to learn as well...namaste
Dialogue 9
Back to contents
namaste 'hindu' - Saturday 21-Aug-1999
(i still think it would be real courage to show who you really are instead of going under a pseudonym... i respect your viewpoint as i'm sure you do mine so why is there a need to fear your identity?)
I don't share many beliefs of what you understand to be a Hindu. You should understand that Hinduism is not a tightly knit monolith system of beliefs and practices that everyone calling oneself to be a Hindu must adhere to or else be excommunicated."
A ~ take no offence but this is exactly the warped thinking that arya samaj was founded against... the man who rapes his dalit servant and burns his wife with kerosene because of a low dowry claims he is hindu and just following the rights given to him by his religion. the landowners who burn down the villages of harmless dalits say they are hindus defending their religion. and the thugees who murdered travelers in their piety also claimed to be good hindus... the reason you are so disunited is that you do not share any common beliefs. except being indian what else ties you and another hindu hold together? it can't be acceptance of the veda as many don't fulfil that... it obviously can't be ahimsa or tolerance... definately not belief in a god. there is no common thread that ties hindus together. they are all just fumbling in the dark trying to find their own separate truths.. .
"You might believe that killing of animal for eating meat is good although the reasons such as mankind has been doing it since ancient times or Manu declares meat eating to be less meritorious but not a sin are hardly convincing. However I understand that if one can kill an animal for one's physical need others are equally justified to kill animals for physical as well as emotional and spiritual need."
i don't think you read my whole post. go back and read what i wrote about the validity of killing for "emotional and spiritual need"...
A ~ if killing an animal will get you to the doors of heaven why not offer up your family instead that'll get you even further. eating animal flesh is in the level of tamas and vegetarian diet (satva) is always preferable but in many conditions one must kill in order to have food for that day... do you accept that? that form of eating benefits the body through the introduction of nutrients so that it can live and grow... now how does animal-sacrifice benefit you? unless you believe like the hebrews in a scapegoat for one's sins...
"You are absolutely right that 'by deeds one is a brahmin by deeds is one an outcaste.' Do you believe like Christians and Muslims that each one of us get only one birth or you believe that we pass through series of birth and death until we obtain Moksha. If you believe that this is not our first birth ( it may or may not be the last one) you would agree that we were not born with a blank record. Consequently shouldn't our past actions determine in which state place and time we take birth into? Otherwise how can you explain varieties of situation people are born into in this world. Now this does not in any way mean that your actions since birth become inconsequential to your status at birth. What you are at birth is the result of actions until that point of time and what would become of you would be determined by your actions from that point onward. That is why Manu calls one a Brahmin by birth but if he/she fails to live up to his/her birth status manu declares such an individual equal to Shudra and denies him most benefits due to his status by birth. You can't simply say "... take birth out of it. " and still believe in rebirth and Law of Karma."
A ~ i can tell you is already in the satyarth prakash and i'm not ready to start regurgitating pages and pages of the book on this post... obviously the condition you are born in (wealth or poverty) is determined by our deeds BUT there is no such thing as one born a brahmin or one born a shudra that is a priestly lie that should've been buried in swamiji's time.
"You have said that you are trying to learn but "there's little to learn from those that reject the veda." You can always learn from those who accept the authority of Vedas. At the same time you should have open mind for every possible source of knowledge. Vedas do say that let the noble thought come to us from all direction."
A ~ from the depths of ignorance like idolaters? what sort of knowledge can they give me? an example please... something that the vedas have not already taught me.
What I said was that you should focus more on knowing than defending and winning or loosing."
A ~ i will only be satisfied when both of us are winners (ie when both of us can accept the knowledge of the vedas)
suggested you to let go prejudices and assumptions and you shoot back "assumptions that god is real and blissful that the veda is his word that doing good unto others is the noblest dharma?" Why do you jump to extremes? Nevertheless make sure that even assumptions that god is real and blissful that the veda is his word that doing good unto others is the noblest dharma are nothing but assumptions. We accept them on the authority of scriptures and sages but until you verify it yourself these will remain assumptions. Having made the most sensible assumptions the goal should be to verify them not to accept them as an end in themselves."
A ~ what the veda tells me can never be assumption since it is the word of the almighty... it is only a mortal man that can give assumptions.
"I told you what murtis mean to me. It does not matter how much you insist to the contrary I can't give up what is useful to me. It is least important to answer your question "why does a small metal statue with four hands and jewellery remind you of something which is always right before you?" The important thing is that the "small metal statue with four hands and jewelry" does help me relate to that which I must conceive only in a most abstract way."
A ~ bhaiji that is no reply to my question... how can that finite concrete statue lead you to the infinite abstract? both are leading in opposite ways. why can't the manifold universe be evidence and reminder enough of a supreme loving god? sorry that i am replying in this 'quote and comment' style but right now it seems to be the most comprehensive way and i don't leave out any of your points. shubhamastu.
Dialogue 10
Back to contents
namaste - Sunday 22-Aug-1999
(be it as you wish... but revealing yourself will be liberating to you)
{What you consider as "warped thinking" of Hindus is the strength of Hindus. It might be difficult for you to appreciate that with your one prophet one book one faith attitude resembling those of Abrahmic religions}
A ~ is universality then a bad thing? for all men to hold unity in faith and belief in a single god? Where there is disunity there is suspicion war and suffering... take india as a good example.
{religion is not what some of its perverted adherents declare that to be.}
A ~ i agree... even in arya samaj we have bad apples... but they cannot base their actions in our scripture... a fornicating man might refer back to krishna's orgies with the gopis and an aristocratic landlord will base his claim in the hindu law books. in hinduism there is sanction for many evil things and i know these are the interpolations of corrupt people throughout the ages... there IS some truth in your scriptures i don't deny that the same way there is some truth in the bible or the quran... but what swamiji describes this as is food mixed with poison... and sorry to say but hindus have been gluttons for it..
{A religion is what its scriptures and theology explains it to be and what majority of its adherents believe in.}
A ~ then hinduism is idolatry caste division women suppression pigs emerging out of nowhere to pluck the earth from an unsupported sea gods sending prostitutes to tempt holy men krishna gawking at naked women and committing adultery the ganga falling from the sky the worship of animals trees and evil spirits to avoid calamity horoscopes and corrupt priests the monkey hanuman swallowing the sun the penis of shiva stretched to eternity the sun being drawn by a seven-headed horse an all-powerful god having to become flesh to kill a petty demon demons that pray and are rewarded for their piety oceans of milk and rum surrounding the world a god asleep on a mutant snake floating on milk idols in temples coming to life to help devotees pay off loans gods who join forces to conjure up a warrior lady to kill a buffalo devils whose blood spawns a thousand of their kind a god who shoots sperm into a fire and creates a son.... since the majority accepts the puranas and popular hinduism...all these are to be found in hindu books.. now you say you accept the validity of these 'scriptures' but not the wierd stories because science and common sense proves them wrong... what logic is that? why not reject those books entirely since whatever truth there is in them is already to be found in the veda? why do you still profess faith in something you know to be untrue? the vedas already say the world revolves around the sun and whatever is in them is perfectly in accordance with reason and common sense... instead you turn to later imaginary stories like those in the wretched bhagvat...
{Hindus are disunited they don't have common beliefs (as you understand them) and blah blah. That is not your problem. That is Hindus problem.}
A ~ and how are they solving it? please let me know... then i'll back
{I am here to discuss Hinduism its philosophy and beliefs (whatever that may be). If you are interested in that, it is fine. Otherwise let me know and I will find something better to do.}
A ~
i am not so close minded that i am not willing to listen to your ideas and philosophy but when you cross the line as to what the vedas teach (eg. idolatry) you are asking for written confrontation... otherwise our discussions are free for a two-way flow of knowledge i will accept what truth you have to give and i hope it is likewise...
A ~
{I have already expressed my views on killings of animals and I will stick to that. If you can kill to eat I can kill as offering to god and then eat.}
A ~ still aren't getting my point.... answer this: does the almighty god possessor of every existing thing really want your goat with its head lopped off? how is that going to benefit you in any way? none of your sins can ever be atoned by the sacrifice of animals or grain or whatever for that'd be contrary to the law of karma... where is the end you seek by your sacrifice??? the end of killing for food is obvious... but where do you slot in your erroneous belief that slaughtering an animal and then eating it will make the meat any tastier or holier or persuade the almighty to turn a blind eye to your sins?
{To say that if killing of animals as sacrifice to God brings merits then why not sacrifice humans again shows your extremist thinking.}
A ~ extremist?? doesn't it make any sense to you? the human is more developed and the highest of all creatures... if a decapitated chicken can appease the wrath of god a human will make him love you even more!
{The answer is that killings of humans is not approved by scriptures as a means to earn any merit.}
A ~ and the slaying of an unsuspecting harmless animal is? what scriptures have you been reading?
{Moreover if you apply your logic to your views: if eating of animal can be justified in some cases eating of humans can also be justified in another case!!}
A ~ please use some common sense bhai... yes if you're stranded on some frigid alpine netherworld with no other source of nutrition you will have to turn to cannabalism to survive (watch some plane crash movies to find out how)... but coming back to sensical thought our digestive systems are suited more for the consumption of animal flesh even though vegetarian diet suits it even more... you don't see lions tigers or omnivores naturally eating one another under normal circumstances do you??
{You say "obviously the condition you are born in (wealth or poverty) is determined by our deeds BUT there is no such thing as one born a brahmin or one born a shudra" Why not? Because Satyarth Prakash does not say so?}
A ~ the satyarth prakash does not have to mention every vedic commandment for it to be authoritative that we use our thinking faculties for...
{Being born brahmin means being born in a situation that is conducive to learning and spiritual development. Why shouldn't this privilege be determined by one's Karma? That is not a priestly lie. The priestly lie is to say that once born into a varna one remains so irrespective of one's deed during the lifetime. Try to understand Law of Karma and rebirth better.}
A ~
i agree with you on this point hindu... this is what i was trying to get to in my post... one may be born to shudra parents but that does not mean one is declared shudra at birth! as one grows and matures one's mental and moral leanings are noticeable and if one is born in an environment conducive to leaning then that usually works to one's advantage... where discrimination is based on birth is where i definitely draw the line.
{You are asking me to tell you "something that the vedas have not already taught me." I wonder why are you wasting your time here if Vedas have taught you everything and you don't need to learn from any other source. Don't tell me you are here to help me learn because I am more interested in two-way communication not one way learning from you. I also wonder why you are going to school. Can you learn there anything that Vedas haven't taught you?}
A ~ my teachers at school are nastiks jews a muslim and christians but i am still learning from them! you seem to constantly mistake my intention in writing... the vedas are the source of all knowledge that is true but based upon that knowledge man has made progress in discovering the workings of nature etc and that is the learning that i am acquiring at school. do not confuse my intended reference to spiritual wisdom with school-knowledge as these are seperate issues... and how i wonder do you relate the phrase 'what the vedas have already taught me' to mean that i've mastered the vedas and have no need for further education?.. please reread your posts before sending them..
{You say "what the veda tells me can never be assumption since it is the word of the almighty... it is only a mortal man that can give assumptions." It is an assumption FOR YOU until you realize what is taught in Vedas. Think about it without being too emotional.}
A ~ true but that is why the vedas have elucidated for us by swamiji and the rishis before him... are their teachings on the true meaning of the veda then 'assumption'? i would take the knowledge given by a realised soul anyday since they cannot give mere assumptions being in intimate communion with the almighty.
{There is no point in discussing murti puja because we both hold uncompromising position on this. We can only discuss if you wish to discuss despite this understanding.}
A ~ that is still no answer to my question... do you fear its validity? i'm impressed that you've lasted this long on this forum hindu and i praise your determination to 'enlighten' us on your beliefs... and not run back to the comforting lethargy of your hindu boards...namaste
Dialogue 11
Back to contents
Namaste Ashegan - Sunday 22-Aug-1999
please use some common sense bhai... yes if you're stranded on some frigid alpine netherworld with no other source of nutrition you will have to turn to cannibalism to survive (watch some plane crash movies to find out how)...
Vj ~ Then again if one is truly righteous (Vedic wisdom), God would never place him in such a condition. It is unrighteousness that leads to meat-eating and cannibalism.
but coming back to sensical thought our digestive systems are suited more for the consumption of animal flesh even though vegetarian diet suits it even more... you don't see lions tigers or omnivores naturally eating one another under normal circumstances do you??
Vj ~ Here is a logical thought, the carnivores as tigers, lions, cats, dogs, lick water up with the tongue whilst the herbivores like cows, horses, sheep, etc. all suck water up meaning human belongs to the latter since they also drink water the same way. Namaste.
Dialogue 12
Back to contents
namaste Hindu - Monday 23-Aug-1999
{{Liberate yourself before suggesting what will be liberating to others. Let us not jump to liberation while barely scratching the peripheries of spirituality.}}
A ~ did you honestly think i was referring to spiritual liberation?
{{There is nothing special in universality of faith. Rather it is a frightening concept which has caused a lot of suffering and war in the world.}}
A ~ to the ignorant yes it is frightening... what would happen to all those stodgy priests that are making a killing out of them... anyway it is in accordance with the natural law of decadence that we deteriorate from universal righteousness in the beginning (satya yuga) to the situation now...
{{Try to understand the practical implications of what you consider such a noble thought. Faith cannot be imposed upon cannot be derived from such rational considerations as avoidance of war and unity. Faith comes from within without any reason.}}
A ~ there can be no compulsion in faith... in the satya yug people didn't have to be compelled to believe in truth..
{{It is your total lack of understanding of India's past and present that you continuously make erroneous conclusions}}
A ~ is it my lack of knowledge of india's past? it's you who thinks her civilisation only goes back 5000 years...
{{- such as blaming the existence of several faith among Hinduism in India for whatever is bad in India.}}
A ~ that is not the only reason... they are manifold but disunity is one of them.
{{Well why don't you consider regions with uniformity of faith such as Arabia Afganistan Central Asia Eastern Europe Burma Cambodia Vietnaam and parts of Africa.}}
A ~ uniformity of true religion?
{{Sri Ashegan I have just replied to Vj saying it is said in Ramcharitmanas Ja ki rahi bhavana jaisi prabhu murat dekhi tin taisi.[Each one saw in Lord Ram what his/her own reminiscent impression reflected.] It is your own samskar your own bhavana your own reminiscent impression that brings out only vulgarity and obscenity from Purans.}}
A ~ dear hindu please show me an unbeliever in your holy puranas how the myths i described in the last post reflect on you?
{{Perverted persons has even distorted Vedas and Upanishads and if you say that that is why you read Swami Dayanand believe me it is not that difficult to distort what Swami Dayanand meant either (Vj is an example of that).}}
A ~ in what way has he distorted it? it is sophists who read his work and then go against everything swamiji stood for who are distorting his message.
{{One can only try to help others understand but without proper mindset there is no way to stop distortions.}}
A ~ what is wrong then with my mindset that you do not understand?
{{You like to quote Swamiji's description of 'food mixed with poison' but it does not fit everywhere. I can say that one does not burn one's house to kill the rats.}}
A ~ no one refurbishes the house and returns it to its former glory..
{{I can also say that wise know how to take out food without touching the poison just as Swamiji did with Vedic interpretations. I can also say that a swan (wise) has no problem drinking milk and leaning water aside even from the mixture of water and milk. If you get overawed by the oceans you cannot take out pearls.}}
A ~ "the wise can extract nectar even from poison" – manu. There is definitely some truth in the puranas and the other hindu scriptures... a person with a discriminating intellect can read them all and still be unmoved by their falsehoods.. but how many of your fellow hindus have that discriminating intellect?
{{Also Hinduism's scriptures does not only include Purans and Bhagwatam and you and Vijai are repeating endlessly. Hindus scriptures include shruti smriti itihaas purans dharmashashtras and many more.}}
A ~ what is the use since you ignore what the shruti teaches?
{{The rules for their interpretation are clearly laid out in Mimamsa and you should study these rules for better understanding. For that you will have to get out of I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong mode.}}
A ~ i'm sorry if you think i'm in that mode.. all i've done is give my comments on what you've written...
{{In reply to my suggestion that a religion is what its scriptures and theology explains it to be and what majority of its adherents believe in you should have talked out Hinduism's scriptures with due reference to rules of interpretation as mentioned above. Instead you have chosen to go crazy with your lack of understanding of Hinduism. Your understanding of Hinduism reminds me of those westerners who think that India is nothing more than a country of snake charmers. Please help yourself grow-up.}}
A ~ i will give a lengthy reply to this soon...and what follows...
Dialogue 13
Back to contents
Namaste Hindu - Saturday 21-Aug-1999
You say that calling others idiot and using other derogatory adjectives is Vj's style.
Vj ~ It is more like the nature of wisdom to weed out the incurable fools since a wise man knows where best his time should be spent. I have always wondered until now that "derogatory adjectives" must have some significant benefit to mankind, otherwise what other reasons were they created for?
That is no justification at all.
Vj ~ It is enough of a justification rather than wasting valuable time over a fool. Bhai Ashegan is a very polite individual as you would want him to be, but in spite of it, you would not abandon your false practices either. So we have tried both ways and it is enough justification that neither would work for the benefit of a fool.
You should see that hardly anybody coming to these message boards isn’t comfortable with Vj's style.
Vj ~ It is most appropriate since even Lord Krishna said in reference to Kaliyug "the company of the wise are few". Follow the life of Swami Dayanand and you will see that truth is not simple to come by even if the only books you have on your shelf are the Vedas.
The result is that Vj has frightened more people away from Vedic wisdom than enlightening them.
Vj ~ The result is clear that no "frightened" fool can be enlightened and that includes even those with no names or aliases.
Dialogue 14
Back to contents
Namaste Hindu - Thursday 19-Aug-1999
Vj ~ There isn't much one can teach a Hindu who is ashamed of using his own name.
Ashegan: it is sad indeed that they don't have the wisdom to recognize help when it comes to them...
Hindu: Since when best help started to be offered in terms of insults and abuses?
Vj ~ Since a serious disease (ignorance) requires as surgical incision. It is not meant to inflict pain but it is necessary for the good of the patient.
Ashegan: but such is the age of kaliyug..
Hindu: There was no satyuga during Swami Dayanand's time either.
Vj ~ If it were (Satyuga), there would have been no Hindu.
Your failure is due to your arrogance that only you understand Vedas only you know what is good for others.
Vj ~ So if the higher stage of worshipping the formless is called arrogance, why are you striving for it?
The moments anyone begins to think that he knows what is good for all he becomes dictatorial.
Vj ~ Then, that would include God who knows “what is good for all”. He alone stands guilty of revealing the Vedas which tells us what we must do.
Ashegan: i wonder how i will be able to properly defend our dharma without your help...
Hindu: If a dharma cannot be defended spiritually and philosophically on its own it must be de devoid of truth and hence cannot be defended with or without Vijai.
Vj ~ I agree with you, then how would you explain why the Hindus could not defend their Dharma "spiritually and philosophically" instead of banning me from their forum? You would have to agree, that your Dharma is void of truth since it cannot withstand abuse and insults. My forum stands for truth, since all are welcome and no one is ever barred or banned in spite of his or her attitude abusive or offensive, because truth is truth and it fears no one.
Ashegan: anyway vj i admire your courage for going to that board in the first place and speaking your mind whatever the consequences...
Hindu: There is no wisdom in admiring the courage used for unfairly attacking others.
Vj ~ And what wisdom was there, in assassinating a Rishi for what was thought to be "unfairly attacking others'?
Hindu: This is called prejudiced outlook and unholy alliance.
Vj ~ That was called ignorance and there is no excuse for it holy or unholy.
Ashegan: is there a lesson in this experience for the next time we team up to battle ignorance on another forum?
Hindu: The lesson is that ignorance can only be fought with knowledge not with abuses rhetoric and holier than thou attitude.
Vj ~ How can it be fought with knowledge when ignorance has no respect for those who propagate the knowledge? Killing the propagator (the Swami) is killing the knowledge. Is any of this starting to make any sense to you lame-brain?
Ashegan: btw do you know of any arya pundits who are as well-read as vishal - i would like to check the authenticity of his claims.
Hindu: There are many great arya pundits.
Vj ~ Beginning with the great Swami Dayanand that Hindus murdered. Leaves one to wonder which Hindu is truly in need of an Arya Pandit.
Hindu: But before you go to check the authenticity of Vishal's claim you must get rid of your prejudice that Vishal must be wrong.
Vj ~ If he does that, then what hope is there in curing the Hindus of their ignorance.
Hindu: You must also be ready for the possibility that Vishal may be right.
Vj ~ It is obvious if he was anywhere near right, attempts would have already been made on his life.
Hindu: Otherwise you might just continue checking authenticity of one pundit by another until you find someone who satisfies your preconceived notions rather than telling the truth.
Vj ~ There is never any difficulty in finding an authentic Aryan Pandit, just take a good look at the ones who are constantly being threatened with death by the Hindus. The Hindus themselves have established by hatred and prejudice (ignorance) such a wonderful example of defining great Aryan Scholars, when they assassinated Swami Dayanand. And even if go as far back as 2,400 years ago, they did the same to Shankarcharya.
Ashegan: (please note i'm in no way swayed in my faith in swamiji.. in fact it has grown)
Hindu: It is pathetic that you must confirm your loyalty whenever you raise a doubt.
Vj ~ There is actually no doubt of what ignorance is capable of, when Hindus are able, willing and ready to commit the act of murder on one who embraces the true religion of the Vedas.
Hindu: This is not Vedic/Upanishdic way of learning.
Vj ~ But murdering a Maharishi is.
Incessant and courageous search of Truth requires that one is willing to sacrifice even most dear false notions for truth.
Vj ~ You are an idiot condemn to many, many births of misery like all other Hindus who wanted the death of a Swami so badly, and you call that sacrifice and courage.
Are you ready to accept the possibility that your teacher may be wrong?
Vj ~ Besides the Vedas, we have not only reasoning and science on our side, but the immutable laws of nature. No one can go wrong with this knowledge with those in mind. You haven't proven me wrong yet so how can he accept that I am wrong.
Or you will sacrifice Truth for your loyalty to your teacher?
Vj ~ The hindus were the first to sacrifice Truth (Swami Dayanand) for loyalty of Hinduism (ignorance). Namaste Vijai.
Dialogue 15
Back to contents
Ashegan’s reply to Hindu - Friday 20-Aug-1999
Hindu: I don't accept Vedas as God's final revelation commanding us what we must do.
A ~ that was a bit surprising... the vedas are an eternal revelation not a final one.. they were not revealed at some point in history they have existed always in every succeeding creation... hence the lack of reference to people places or events.
Hindu: It is obvious that Hindus don't kill wise people because Hindus like Vishal are very well respected.
A ~ there's a difference between knowledgeable and wise
Hindu: Substantiate your claim that Hindus are or ever have threatened Arya Pandits. Take legal action instead of spreading lies here.
A ~ sri jha claimed the aryas were to be suspected and that "we must seek them out and defeat them physically mentally and spiritually".. i think the 'physical' part is where the threats come in.. and someone else posted that vj would 'not return in one piece'namaste - Saturday 21-Aug-1999
My comment on Vedas was intended to clarify that Vedas to me is not what Bible is to a Christian, Koran to a Muslim and Light of Truth to Vijai. Vedas is authoritative for Hindus as well as for Arya Samaji not because it is eternal or the way it is delivered to succeeding creation but because it is Truth."
A ~ if it is truth why do you not accept it as revelation? do you think the vedas that are apaurusheya have been written by human hands?? you wrote earlier that you felt it was 'not a final revelation commanding us what do'... then what is the veda? is it not a spiritual guidebook the almighty has given us in his mercy and his will for us to become enlightened?
"With names of so many rishis kings rivers countries etc. please check the correctness of your assertion that Vedas lack references to people places and events. I hope you understand that Vedas are primary source for constructing ancient history of India."
A ~ i'm afraid you've been reading the corrupted versions of western fools who think they can understand and translate the timeless knowledge of the veda with their own petty research. they translated these books so imperfectly that by reading them now one can barely make out the original thought... if the vedas do contain references to "rishis kings rivers countries etc." this refutes your earlier comment that they are truth for truth is eternal and lasts forever... the reason the bible and the quran are false is that they are full of historical stories and figures which means they were not revealed or eternal. and it is the apocryphal puranas that are being used to recreate ancient indian history rather than the vedas... it is with conjunction with the brahmanas and other true shastras that the real meaning of the veda is realised thus i suggest you read an arya translation before making your judgements. it was many people that hated the swamiji in his time not just the hindus.. but what is saddening is that the people he struggled to liberate with knowledge of the veda (hindus) were the very ones that plotted for his death and stoned and attacked him. the machinations of a christian or a muslim can be justified in their sense but for a hindu to despise and conspire against one who had come to teach true religion for their benefit that is a terrible crime and shall not be forgotten by aryas. namaste
Dialogue 16
Back to contents
Namaste Ashegan - Saturday 21-Aug-1999
"My comment on Vedas was intended to clarify that Vedas to me is not what Bible is to a Christian, Koran to a Muslim and Light of Truth to Vijai. Vedas is authoritative for Hindus as well as for Arya Samaji, not because it is eternal or the way it is delivered to succeeding creation but because it is Truth."
Vj ~ It still does not explain what the Vedas is to him. You are a marvelous friend to have on my boards. You are indeed a true Veer of the Rishi. Together we will put the Hindus to shame since they are the source of false religion. Tolerance has no place in our philosophy and we must adhere to this rule with all the resources available to us. Thank you again my friend you are doing a majestic favor to Vedic Dharma while enlightening your soul. Namaste Vijai.
Sunday 22-Aug-1999
again sadly you accuse me of charging hindus of killing swami dayanand... all i gave you was the truth of what happened.. do you think i have restless nights in depression and hatred for evil idolworshippers that killed the rishi?? i have better things to do with my time...
the swami has passed away nothing can be accomplished by moaning about his death as tragic as it was... but it is his message that will survive and that is what i am propounding not to give hindus a guilt complex over his death.
{I hesitate to use the word revelation because it's meaning has been corrupted by two religions Islam and Christianity based entirely on prophetic revelation. Revelation is automatically taken to mean exclusive revelation that is God revealed to Mr. X and not to Mr. Y or to all. Revelation of Vedas are inclusive in that sense and must be understood as such.}
the vedas where revealed at the dawn of creation to four great rishis (muslims or christians would say prophets) for they among all men (and note there weren't many around back then) were the purest and noblest in heart with their minds immersed totally in contemplation of god.. and to them for the dissemination to all mankind.
"in the beginning god revealed the four vedas rig yaju sama and atharva to agni vayu aditya and angira respectively"
shatpatha brahmana XI 4/2/3
"in the beginning after humankind was created the supreme spirit made the vedas known to brahma through agni and the other rishis"
manu 1/23
{Secondly in case of the Abrahmic religions there is no way for anyone to verify the authenticity of revelation because God is never going to talk to anybody anymore - finality of to all those revelation. Vedas have been and will be (in the next cycle of creation) revealed who seek and its truth can be ascertained by anyone who are courageous enough to strive.}
that is why the books of the christians and the muslims are false when they claim to be revealed but strangely while you say the vedas are "revealed" you maintain afterwards that they mention all sorts of historical references which refutes the present comment. revelation can only be true if it is revealed from the beginning for the benefit of all... if you believe that the vedas date back only 5000 yrs then god would have to be injust to deprive all the souls that were born before that period of the true knowledge... unless you belive like christians that the world has just been around for 5000 years...
{As you wonder yourself "is it not a spiritual guidebook the almighty has given us in his mercy and his will for us to become enlightened?" Yes it is a guidebook not a rigid and unforgiving command.}
the vedas point out right from wrong and leave us to make a moral choice.. too bad most of the choices hindus have made (idolatry and avatars over the formless unborn god) have been on the wrong side...
{And you are mistaken to think that I have been reading translations of Vedas by 'western fools'. Don't say that Saraswati river is not mentioned in Vedas but to insist that one must pray on the banks of this river would be absurd as this river does not exist anymore.}
if not western fools then indian fools who still pander to the west and believe that aryans invaded india and that soma was a liquor and that early indians were primitive... if the river saraswati is mentioned in the veda which is not true then can it cannot be eternal truth because it records the status quo at a certain point in history and therefore cannot as you assert earlier be "revelation" or that "Vedas have been and will be (in the next cycle of creation) revealed" - how can a historical record stuck in time refer to future and present situations?
{I have repeated several times that our scriptures deal with both eternal and temporal.}
if the vedas deal with the temporal then they cannot be eternal
{When people fail to make this distinction and apply what was true 5000 years ago to the present society that distortions creep in. On the other hand eternal teachings for instance nature of Brahma Atma Purush and Prakriti etc. are true for ever.}
there's that '5000 yrs' thing again... i've already explained the faultiness of this statement
{Thus simply because Vedas contain names of rishis kings rivers etc. the Truth in it does not cease to be so. You think so because of your conception of Vedas on the line of Koran and Bible - word of God.}
oh no the references could be true alright but then it ceases to be eternal and then ceases to be revelation... maybe you're getting confused with the brahmanas that contain biographies of rishis and kings...
let me ask you.. do you think it was mortal men that composed the holy vedas?? namaste
|