by AF4K
From richard_hankins@nortel.com Wed Oct 22 Recently, Jack, GM0RWU, posted on the UK vintage radio mailing list, the following comment about army cadet HF net operation back in the 50s, 60s and 70s (with my additions in brackets): ] In retrospect I'm still astonished by the distances we worked ] with this low powered kit (less than 10 watts carrier, AM). ] We had regular lunchtime skeds (from Edinburgh) down ] to the midlands, and contacts to the South coast were, as I said, ] not unusual. We used long wire antennas, no one had heard of SWR, ] so you just tuned up for max RF current. Clearly, around 5MHz is a ] very desirable piece of spectrum real estate. I know that ] an allocation around there has been talked about. Based on this ] experience, I'd say it was well worth pushing for. What can we do ] to help our reps. here? I can certainly confirm the much better conditions around 5MHz for contacts within the UK using low power (on WS19 and the like), compared to say the current 80 metre band. I admit the general increase in QRM levels over the last 20 years may also be a factor, but I recall at the time (early 70s) that 5.3 MHz was a great deal better than 4 MHz and vastly better than 2.3MHz (these freqs are approximate), so there obviously is a frequency related effect. Does anyone know if any serious work has been done on getting a new allocation around 5MHz? Richard Hankins G7RVI
From: JACKSON Andy = ajackson@cellnet.co.uk Subject: Re: The (still) good old days Date sent: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 Mk 2 and Mk 3 WS 19's did have an integral VHF set operating around 235 MC/s. The normal HF section of the set was designated the "A" set and the VHF section the "B" set. They operated completely independently. The B set was intended for inter-vehicle working in armoured squadrons with a design range of up to 1000 yards ore so. They were not very successful and had stability problems and were prone to causing interference with other services. They were usually removed during post-war overhaul programs. The Larkspur family equivalent of the WS19 "B" set was to be the WS B45 which was physically identical to the B47 & B48 but with a tuning range of about 48 - 50 MC/s (the filmstrip scale was marked in simple channel numbers not frquency) and feeding directly to a simple rod antenna with no intermediate ATU. The B45 did not make it to production but a quantity of pre-production "C" models were sold off through a surplus dealer called Tom Huggett of Thornton Heath, Surrey in the late '60's. (The back room of this shop was crammed with WW2 vintage airborne RADAR kit, GEE etc but that's another story!) The WS19 also contained an audio amplifier used primarily for the tank commander to instruct the driver and other crew members. Many Mk 3 sets were manufactured in Canada by RCA but not exclusively. RCA Canada manufactured many Mk 3's with English/Cyrillic panel markings for supply to Russia which these days are very highly prized by collectors and military vehicle restorers. As far as I know, proximity fuses were designed in the US for anti-aircraft applications to improve the hit rate. Andy G8JAC
NOTE: To BUY Wireless Set 19 and Accessories, you can contact:
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From: Jack Ponton = jwp@chemeng.ed.ac.uk Date sent: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 Subject: Re: The (still) good old days Andy wrote... ]Mk 2 and Mk 3 WS 19's did have an integral VHF set operating ]around 235 MC/s. The normal HF section of the set was ]designated the "A" set and the VHF section the "B" set. They ]operated completely independently. The B set was intended for ]inter-vehicle working in armoured squadrons with a design range ]of up to 1000 yards ore so. They were not very successful and ]had stability problems and were prone to causing interference ]with other services. This explains why I never found anyone who'd used it, and why it mas missing from most of the sets I encountered. Presumably it was some sort of super-regen, like current car alarm systems! Not really suitable for modern conditions even if it could be moved to an amateur frequency, I suspect. I think you are correct about the VT fuse being primarily for AA. They were in the book for 25 pdr field artillery in the 50s as an airburst fuse, though I never actually saw them used. A bit expensive to have let us play with... Jack, gm0rwu
Date sent: 22 Oct 1997 From: Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com Andy Jackson wrote............. ]Mk 2 and Mk 3 WS 19's did have an integral VHF set operating ]around 235 MC/s. The normal HF section of the set was ]designated the "A" set and the VHF section the "B" set. Some further info to add to Andy's comments. This B set was tunable over 229 to 241 Mc/s approx, and used a 4 valve circuit as follows: On Rx it had a super-regen circuit with a low capacity triode (DET20) as oscillator, quenched by a separate oscillator (6K7G) running between 158 and 228Kc/s. The latter was actually user adjustable "to avoid interference between users on the same net due to beating of these quench frequencies or their harmonics". The other two valves form a standard two stage audio amp with 6V6 as output. On Tx, the DET20 oscillator runs continuously (non-quenched) and is anode modulated by the two audio stages, which now form the mic amp. Curiously the aerial is a *half-wave* rod (20 inches long), which is connected to the set by a coax feeder an integral number of halfwaves long. This means it presents a high impedance to the set rather than the now standard 50 ohms (I've no idea why they came up with this scheme - other than avoiding loading the oscillator and avoiding the need for VHF impedance matching - which might have been somewhat of a challenge back in 1940!). For those wot know about super-regens, this is quite a sophisticated circuit (the simple ones use one valve/transistor and are self-quenching) and it really ought to have worked very well - at least on Rx. If they had stability problems as Andy says below, this was probably due to insufficient testing in the design stage - after all its not easy to replicate the heat and vibration levels of a WWII tank in a lab. If I remember rightly the WS19 was designed initially by Pye in Cambridge, and AFAICR Pye was strictly a non-military, broadcast Rx type of manufacturer before the War. In which case, one can surmise that did not have either the equipment or the expertise to design for the tank environment properly. Pye was probably selected because they understood about mass production (the WS19 was meant to replace the earlier hand-made WS9 which couldn't be made fast enough) and were some way from the main bombing centres of London, etc (i.e. in Cambridge). As an aside, I used to work for Pye in the late 70s, and even then they had no equipment for high vibration testing - so that fits with my comments above. ] They operated completely independently. ]The B set was intended for inter-vehicle working in armoured ]squadrons with a design range of up to 1000 yards ore so. They ]were not very successful and had stability problems and were ]prone to causing interference with other services. It was said to be easier to shout to the guy in the next tank than call him up on WS19 B-set! ]They were usually removed during ]post-war overhaul programs. The Larkspur family equivalent of ]the WS19 "B" set was to be the WS B45 which was physically ]identical to the B47 & B48 but with a tuning range of about 48 ]- 50 MC/s (the filmstrip scale was marked in simple channel ]numbers not frquency) and feeding directly to a simple rod ]antenna with no intermediate ATU. The B45 did not make it to ]production If the B45 did not make it to production, what replaced the WS19 B-set in WWII and immediately afterwards, when it was realised that it didn't work too well? There seem to have been a variety of combinations of WS19 with WS38AFV, WS88AFV and WS31AFV - but I understand from Louis Meulstee writing in Radio Bygones that the WS38AFV add-on was introduced so guys in tanks could talk directly to the infantry guys on the ground. He doesn't say anything about the tank-to-tank problem. Did they actually use these add-on sets for this purpose, or did they just not talk to each other? Andy G8JAC
Date sent: 22 Oct 1997 From: Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com Subject: Re: The (still) good old days Jack Ponton wrote........... ]Talking about the WS19........ ]This explains why I never found anyone who'd used it, and why ]it mas missing from most of the sets I encountered. Presumably ]it was some sort of super-regen, like current car alarm ]systems! Not really suitable for modern conditions even if it ]could be moved to an amateur frequency, I suspect. Probably correct that you really wouldn't want to move the WS19 B-set to the nearest amateur band, i.e. 2 metres, if only because there isn't much AM on this band these days! Might well be stable enough in the nice stable conditions of the average shack. Being a Class B licensee myself at present, I have given some thought to getting old sets on the VHF amateur bands. There isn't any set I know of absolutely suited to modern conditions, and modulation norms.......the world moves on, of course. There are a number of sets from the 60s that cover 6 metres directly, such as the British A41, C42, and B47 from the Larkspur range, and quite a few equivalent Nato sets probably of US origin, such as the AN/VRC-10/15/18, and AN/GRC-7 and 8 series. A fairly minor problem with these sets is the highish FM deviation (about 15Khz) and the correspondingly wide IF bandwidth, which means their sensitivity is not too good. About 0.5 microvolt for 30dB S+N/N is the spec on the VRC-10. Probably not too good for working DX ! Anyway, I am in the middle of putting a VRC-10 - recently acquired from the continent - on the air. I've yet to put up a 6 metre antenna, and having never been on the band, I've no idea how much activity there is around Herefordshire or how well it will work. Will re-post when I get my first 6-metre contact. Richard
Date sent: 22 Oct 1997 From: Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com Jack Ponton wrote......... ]In retrospect I'm still astonished by the distances we worked ]with this low powered kit. (I'd assumed anything that big had to ]put out at least 100W!) We had regular lunchtime skeds down to ]the midlands, and contacts to the South coast were, as I said, ]not unusual. We used long wire antennas, no one had heard of ]SWR, so you just tuned up for max RF current. Clearly, around ]5MHz is a very desirable piece of spectrum real estate. I know ]that an allocation around there has been talked about. Based on ]this experience, I'd say it was well worth pushing for. What can ]we do to help our reps. here? Agreed on the astonishing performance of the old sets on 5MHz. Any QRPers on this list, will write this off as nonsense, I expect, but what I find amazing about it, was that we were able to chat away - with ease - day in day out. In other words we had reliable comms, on old low power AM sets, many of which had pretty poor modulation (e.g. WS19) on ropey aerials (the best we had was half-wave dipole about one tenth of a wavelength above the ground). Interestingly, I vaguely recall an article in RadCom some time back, written by an amateur who had set up comms links to cover reliably distances up to a few hundred miles in Africa (AFAICR). He had more or less a free hand to choose the operating frequency (this wasn't an amateur operation, I think it was for some charity/rescue operation). He chose 5.0 to 5.5 MHz as the best spot. When you compare 5330 (admitedly in the 70s- possibly less QRM everywhere then) with 80 metres now - well you only have to (struggle to) listen to the MWARS net on 3625 on Sat mornings to realise that it ain't too good. I am sure the sets haven't changed - the QRM levels are usually horrendous - and the fading severe. Really, only sets pushing out around 100W carrier can communicate with the ease I remember from 5330, and no-one has yet covered the distance of Edinburgh to the S.Coast (as far as I know). So agreed 5MHz is pretty desirable. No idea what we can do to get a new allocation here, but have just posted the same query to the uk.radio.amateur newsgroup to see what the guys there come up with. Richard G7RVI
From: Jack Ponton = jwp@chemeng.ed.ac.uk Date sent: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 Richard wrote... ]Anyway, I am in the middle of putting a VRC-10 - recently ]acquired from the continent - on the air. I've yet to put up a ]6 metre antenna, and having never been on the band, I've no idea ]how much activity there is around Herefordshire or how well it ]will work. Will re-post when I get my first 6-metre contact. Good luck! When I was last on 6m, a couple of years ago, there was nothing happening on FM around here, nor on SSB/CW between openings (which mostly happened when I was at work!) However, there is likely to be more FM activity in your part of the country, and 6m repeaters are coming in. During openings you can certainly work the world with very little power and any sort of antenna. I managed all over Europe with less than 10W SSB and a 1/4 wave VERTICAL when I hit the right times. I heard of someone working VK on FM with a similar setup. There's no reason why we shouldn't use AM too on 6m. There's lots of underused bandwidth most of the time. PW even published an AM design a few years back. Re: the WS19 B section, this was certainly a pretty sophisticated superregen design. I remember building a s'regen for 10m using an `acorn' valve. I never heard anything, but it made interesting patterns on my Granny next door's TV set... Was the DET20 the funny looking fellow with `horns': both the anode and grid brought out to caps on the top? 73, Jack, gm0rwu
From: Jack Ponton = jwp@chemeng.ed.ac.uk Date sent: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 Subject: Re: The good old days in UK Richard wrote... ]Agreed on the astonishing performance of the old sets on 5MHz. ]Any QRPers on this list, will write this off as nonsense, I ]expect, but what I find amazing about it, was that we were able ]to chat away - with ease - day in day out. I'm also a QRPer. With CW you have a huge advantage, and so it's scarcely a challenge above the milliwatt level... (I exagerate!) I've used SSB 5-10W quite a lot on HF, mostly 17m, with a dipole, and when the cycle was up, fairly regularly worked E. coast US. In fact I've had QRP SSB HF contacts with all continents except Australasia. But QRP phone SSB on lf/mf is very hard. With ~1W homebrew to a fullsize G5RV (much more than we ever had for 5530MHz) I've managed from the Scottish borders to GI and the Cheshire/Derbyshire area, but this has certainly not been a regular event, unlike the AM nets. However, did you see G3RJV's QRP column in the last Radcom, where he reported that UK low power (under 1W and restricted aerials) medium wave AM stations were being received in Scandanavia? I think the main problem is QRM rather than propagation. The signals are there, but people would have to try much harder to hear them through the noise. 73, Jack gm0rwu
Date sent: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 To: af4k@earthlink.net From: Trevor Day = trev@southwestuk.demon.co.uk Subject: CCF Radio Hi Bry, Just had a nostalgic look at your CCF page. I used to operate as call- sign 9C from school in Portsmouth during 1967/68. Best radio fun I ever had using either a 19 set or occasionally the 62 set which sat in the corner. We used 5.33 MHz which was designated as 'Delta Oscar'. The sequence used to be: First station on frequency called Delta Oscar over and over again for a minute followed by "all stations Delta Oscar this is 9C radio check over" Then the fun would start. Happy Days... Trev G3ZYY ...-.- -- Trevor Day (Note from Bry - here's a picture of Trevor at the rig in the old CCF Days:)
From: David Gordon-Smith, G3UUR = esdgs@eng.warwick.ac.uk
Date sent: Fri, 24 Oct 1997
Subject: G3LYW and the good ol' days - really!
Bry,
I took a look at the CCF radio web pages and was frustrated
to find message after message with the subject purporting to be
about 'G3LYW and the good ol' days' with nary a mention of G3LYW
until I got well down the list. I wish these guys would take the
trouble to find out how to change the subject in their message
header/take the trouble to do it if it's not appropriate.
As an active 160M afficionado in the mid to late '60s and a
resident of Bath in the '70s I also have fond recollections of
John and the large nets that used to form around him. Living
only a mile or so across the valley from him at one time, I
spent a considerable amount of effort developing receivers that
did not sound as if the air was being ripped apart when he was
on 160M!!
I worked John about a year ago on 160M. It was a Sunday
afternoon and he was the usual thundering great signal despite
the fact he was using the half-wave rather than his full-wave
antenna.For those that still care and would like to renew their
acquaintance with him, he can be found on 80M on Sunday mornings
between about 8.30 and 10.30. He does have a favourite
frequency, but I forget what it is for the moment. Perhaps you'd
like to post this information on your website, Bry. I'll email
you next week with a report on the National Vintage Comms Fair
which I'm going to at the NEC on Sunday. Hope all is well at
Gaithersburg.
73 de Dave, G3UUR.
Dr Dave Gordon-Smith
Materials Science
Dept. of Engineering Sciences
University of Warwick, UK.
Date: 13/8/97 10:37 am
To: Richard Hankins
From: jlivingston@cix.compulink.co.u
Can anyone give me some idea where to start looking for a WS62
HF transceiver ? There were loads of these around in the 50s and
60s in the forces and some civilian areas.
I am looking for a complete and undamaged set - with a view to
using it as a 160 and 80M CW Qrp rig to accompany my Eddystone
680X.
John
G4FDD
Note: Visit the G3LYW Network here!
Date sent: 18 Aug 1997 From: Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com Subject: Re: WS62 To: John Livingston = jlivingston@cix.compulink.co.uk John (and the rest of the group), Being a collector of such sets, I have some ideas where to look. Finding any particular set of this vintage these days is not easy - particularly "complete and undamaged" - though I swapped one last year, so they *are* about. If I were looking for one, and was unwilling to pay "silly" money, I would settle down for at least a 6 month search. You may ask: what is silly money ? Just the transceiver in a complete, unmodified but not necessarily 100% performing state (i.e. needs re-alignment, possibly some caps replaced, some new valves, etc) is likely to cost 70 - 100 ukpnds. If you want it really complete as well (i.e. mounting trays, aerial, original h'book, headsets, remote control equipment and so on) expect to pay 200 ukpnds and up). You can easily end up paying as much for the "bits" as for the basic set. The simple reason being that those who value the set and thus keep all the bits, know perfectly well how rare they are now - those who don't (often amateurs turning out the attic) chucked the bits long ago anyway, but may be persuaded to sell the basic set at a lowish price. Anyway, suggestions where to hunt down a WS62: (Read no.6 first, as it contains details of one recent ad) 1. Ads in the back of Radio Bygones Naturally this is a favourite ad spot for such sets. Contact G.C.Arnold & Partners at: Radio Bygones, 9 Wetherby Close, Broadstone, DORSET BH18 8JB for sub info, if you don't already know about it. Can also see them at various amateur rallies. Warning under item 2. applies to some extent - though prices here will be higher, cos the sellers know what they are selling ! 2. Ads in the back of Radio Bygones, Practical Wireless, RadCom, etc. There are nearly always a few ex-military vintage items tucked away in these ads. They are often a minor item in amongst those headed "Yaesu" or "Kenwood", so a careful search pays off. Often used by those with "junk" to dispose of, so prices can be low, but unfortunately there is now a breed of collector/dealer around who also knows that are rich pickings to be had here. They are more than happy to clear out some amateur's loft if given the chance, and will happily buy up everything for the chance of one rare item. To compete with such characters, you need to be very quick. Ring up immediately - don't haggle about price on the phone (unless quite ridiculous) - and arrange to go and see the stuff as soon as poss. All obvious, I guess, but this is a competitive aspect of the hobby I dislike. 2. Go to the Vintage Communications Fair This is held in the NEC every May and October, the next one being on 26th Oct. Past events have shown a very varied stock of stuff. Military gear is represented, though has not been a major feature of those I have attended. 3. Join the Military Wireless Amateur Radio Society (MWARS) This has some 250+ members, and bi-monthly newsletter with For Sale and Wanted ads. Cost is 7 ukpnds p.a. if in UK, and contact for joining is John Taylor-Cram tel 01705 - 250463. See also the MWARS web page at URL: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Jeep_Man/MWARS.htm. 4. Join the MWARS 80m net and ask if anyone has WS62 for sale. Any (suitably licensed) amateur can call into the net on 3625KHz, 0930 Saturday mornings, using AM (likely to be ignored if you try SSB). You don't need to be a MWARS member to join the net, nor do you need old gear (just something putting out an AM signal). If you prefer CW, try the MWARS net on 3??? KHz, 0900 Sunday mormings. 5. Attend the various Military Vehicle rallies around the country. The military vehicle collectors are avid buyers of radios, unfortunately paying very high prices for any old box that looks good (but may be full of old socks as far they know). The good bit - if you are really after the "complete" set - is that they also want the externals to look just right, and thus tend to insist on having all the add-on bits. 6. Contact one of the military wireless dealers. This is a route I have only tried once (with success), though I am told they usually have examples of everything stashed away, or know a man who does! Prices again tend to be high. People I would try are: ** Ben Knock G4BXD email: G4BXD@compuserve.com tel: 01562 - 743253 (Try him straight away - has been advertising 2 WS62s recently, from £70) ** Mike Spicer tel: 01273 - 508573 Ken Champion tel: 01460 - 62658 John Lines: tel: 01705 - 268318 Bob Egerton: tel: 01608 - 642429 7. Final suggestion: try something else! This isn't as silly as it sounds. Waiting for a particular vintage set to turn up, in the condition you want, at a price you are willing to pay can be a long job. Unfortunately there are no sets (at least used by UK forces) that go below 2 MHz, of the same vintage as the WS62, that are not rarer still (e.g. WS12, WS52, WS68P, and only the last qualifies as QRP). If you are willing to consider something slightly newer (50/60s era), then the C12 or C13 could readily suit you. Being somewhat later than WS62 they tend to have somewhat better performance, and thankfully are not quite so rare. Both go down to 1.6 MHz. Prices are much the same as for WS62 though: I paid 130 ukpnds for my C12, and about the same for a C13, though you could still easily pay 250pnds for a complete set with all accessories. Obviously, if you widen your scope further, and consider old amateur or US/ European kit then there will be much more to choose from, but I know very little about this stuff. Hope this is of some help: let us know when you succeed ! Richard G7RVI richard_hankins@nortel.com Well, that's it for now until there is some more discussion on these fascinating topics! A Great Big THANK YOU to all whose informative messages are posted herein! Cheers - Bry, G3XLQEND OF PAGE 3
