by AF4K

PAGE 4

From richard_hankins@nortel.com Wed Oct 22

Recently, Jack, GM0RWU, posted on the UK vintage radio mailing list, the
following comment about army cadet HF net operation back in the 50s, 60s
and 70s (with my additions in brackets):

] In retrospect I'm still astonished by the distances we worked
] with this low powered kit (less than 10 watts carrier, AM).
] We had regular lunchtime skeds (from Edinburgh) down
] to the midlands, and contacts to the South coast were, as I said,
] not unusual. We used long wire antennas, no one had heard of SWR,
] so you just tuned up for max RF current. Clearly, around 5MHz is a
] very desirable piece of spectrum real estate.  I know that
] an allocation around there has been talked about. Based on this
] experience, I'd say it was well worth pushing for. What can we do
] to help our reps. here?

I can certainly confirm the much better conditions around 5MHz for
contacts within the UK using low power (on WS19 and the like), compared
to say the current 80 metre band. I admit the general increase in QRM
levels over the last 20 years may also be a factor, but I recall at the
time (early 70s) that 5.3 MHz was a great deal better than 4 MHz and
vastly better than 2.3MHz (these freqs are approximate), so there
obviously is a frequency related effect.

Does anyone know if any serious work has been done on getting a new
allocation around 5MHz?

Richard Hankins
G7RVI

From:             JACKSON Andy  = ajackson@cellnet.co.uk
Subject:          Re: The (still) good old days
Date sent:        Wed, 22 Oct 1997

Mk 2 and Mk 3  WS 19's did have an integral VHF set operating
around 235 MC/s.  The normal HF section of the set was
designated the "A" set and the VHF section the "B" set. They
operated completely independently. The B set was intended for
inter-vehicle working in armoured squadrons with a design range
of up to 1000 yards ore so.  They were not very successful and
had stability problems and were prone to causing interference
with other services. They were usually removed during post-war
overhaul programs.  The Larkspur family equivalent of the WS19
"B" set was to be the WS B45 which was physically identical to
the B47 & B48 but with a tuning range of about 48 - 50 MC/s (the
filmstrip scale was marked in simple channel numbers not
frquency) and feeding directly to a simple rod antenna with no
intermediate ATU. The B45 did not make it to production but a
quantity of  pre-production "C" models were sold off through a
surplus dealer called Tom Huggett  of Thornton Heath, Surrey in
the late '60's. (The back room of this shop was crammed with WW2
vintage airborne RADAR kit, GEE etc  but that's another story!)
The WS19 also contained an audio amplifier used primarily for
the tank commander to instruct the driver and other crew
members. Many Mk 3 sets were manufactured in Canada by RCA but
not exclusively. RCA Canada manufactured many Mk 3's with
English/Cyrillic panel markings for supply to Russia which these
days are very highly prized by collectors and military vehicle
restorers.

As far as I know, proximity fuses were designed in the US for
anti-aircraft applications to improve the hit rate.

Andy G8JAC

From:             Jack Ponton (E-mail:   jwp@chemeng.ed.ac.uk  )
Date sent:        Wed, 22 Oct 1997
Subject:          Re: The (still) good old days

Andy wrote...

]Mk 2 and Mk 3  WS 19's did have an integral VHF set operating
]around 235 MC/s.  The normal HF section of the set was
]designated the "A" set and the VHF section the "B" set. They
]operated completely independently. The B set was intended for
]inter-vehicle working in armoured squadrons with a design range
]of up to 1000 yards ore so.  They were not very successful and
]had stability problems and were prone to causing interference
]with other services. 

This explains why I never found anyone who'd used it, and why it
mas missing from most of the sets I encountered.  Presumably it
was some sort of super-regen, like current car alarm systems!
Not really suitable for modern conditions even if it could be
moved to an amateur frequency, I suspect.

I think you are correct about the VT fuse being primarily for
AA. They were in the book for 25 pdr field artillery in the 50s
as an airburst fuse, though I never actually saw them used. A
bit expensive to have let us play with...

Jack, gm0rwu

Date sent:        22 Oct 1997
From:             Richard Hankins  = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com

Andy Jackson wrote.............

]Mk 2 and Mk 3  WS 19's did have an integral VHF set operating
]around 235 MC/s.  The normal HF section of the set was
]designated the "A" set and the VHF section the "B" set.

Some further info to add to Andy's comments.  This B set was
tunable over 229 to 241 Mc/s approx, and used a 4 valve circuit
as follows:  On Rx it had a super-regen circuit with a low
capacity triode (DET20) as oscillator, quenched by a separate
oscillator (6K7G) running between 158 and 228Kc/s.  The latter
was actually user adjustable "to avoid interference between
users on the same net due to beating of these quench frequencies
or their harmonics".  The other two valves form a standard two
stage audio amp with 6V6 as output.  On Tx, the DET20 oscillator
runs continuously (non-quenched) and is anode modulated by the
two audio stages, which now form the mic amp.  

Curiously the aerial is a *half-wave* rod (20 inches long),
which is connected to the set by a coax feeder an integral
number of halfwaves long.  This means it presents a high
impedance to the set rather than the now standard 50 ohms (I've
no idea why they came up with this scheme - other than avoiding
loading the oscillator and avoiding the need for VHF impedance
matching - which might have been somewhat of a challenge back in
1940!).

For those wot know about super-regens, this is quite a
sophisticated circuit (the simple ones use one valve/transistor
and are self-quenching) and it really ought to have worked very
well - at least on Rx.  If they had stability problems as Andy
says below, this was probably due to insufficient testing in the
design stage - after all its not easy to replicate the heat and
vibration levels of a WWII tank in a lab.  If I remember rightly
the WS19 was designed initially by Pye in Cambridge, and AFAICR
Pye was strictly a non-military, broadcast Rx type of
manufacturer before the War.  In which case, one can surmise
that did not have either the equipment or the expertise to
design for the tank environment properly.  Pye was probably
selected because they understood about mass production (the WS19
was meant to replace the earlier hand-made WS9 which couldn't be
made fast enough) and were some way from the main bombing
centres of London, etc (i.e. in Cambridge).  As an aside, I used
to work for Pye in the late 70s, and even then they had no
equipment for high vibration testing - so that fits with my
comments above.

] They operated completely independently.
]The B set was intended for inter-vehicle working in armoured
]squadrons with a design range of up to 1000 yards ore so.  They
]were not very successful and had stability problems and were
]prone to causing interference with other services. 

It was said to be easier to shout to the guy in the next tank
than call him up on WS19 B-set!

]They were usually removed during
]post-war overhaul programs.  The Larkspur family equivalent of
]the WS19 "B" set was to be the WS B45 which was physically
]identical to the B47 & B48 but with a tuning range of about 48
]- 50 MC/s (the filmstrip scale was marked in simple channel
]numbers not frquency) and feeding directly to a simple rod
]antenna with no intermediate ATU. The B45 did not make it to
]production

If the B45 did not make it to production, what replaced the WS19
B-set in WWII and immediately afterwards, when it was realised
that it didn't work too well?  There seem to have been a variety
of combinations of WS19 with WS38AFV, WS88AFV and WS31AFV - but
I understand from Louis Meulstee writing in Radio Bygones that
the WS38AFV add-on was introduced so guys in tanks could talk
directly to the infantry guys on the ground.  He doesn't say
anything about the tank-to-tank problem.  Did they actually use
these add-on sets for this purpose, or did they just not talk to
each other?

Andy G8JAC

Date sent:        22 Oct 1997
From:             Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com
Subject:          Re: The (still) good old days

Jack Ponton wrote...........

]Talking about the WS19........

]This explains why I never found anyone who'd used it, and why
]it mas missing from most of the sets I encountered.  Presumably
]it was some sort of super-regen, like current car alarm
]systems! Not really suitable for modern conditions even if it
]could be moved to an amateur frequency, I suspect.

Probably correct that you really wouldn't want to move the WS19
B-set to the nearest amateur band, i.e. 2 metres, if only
because there isn't much AM on this band these days!  Might well
be stable enough in the nice stable conditions of the average
shack.

Being a Class B licensee myself at present, I have given some
thought to getting old sets on the VHF amateur bands.  There
isn't any set I know of absolutely suited to modern conditions,
and modulation norms.......the world moves on, of course.

There are a number of sets from the 60s that cover 6 metres
directly, such as the British A41, C42, and B47 from the
Larkspur range, and quite a few equivalent Nato sets probably of
US origin, such as the AN/VRC-10/15/18, and AN/GRC-7 and 8
series.  A fairly minor problem with these sets is the highish
FM deviation (about 15Khz) and the correspondingly wide IF
bandwidth, which means their sensitivity is not too good.  About
 0.5 microvolt for 30dB S+N/N is the spec on the VRC-10. 
Probably not too good for working DX !

Anyway, I am in the middle of putting a VRC-10  - recently
acquired from the continent - on the air.  I've yet to put up a
6 metre antenna, and having never been on the band, I've no idea
how much activity there is around Herefordshire or how well it
will work.  Will re-post when I get my first 6-metre contact.

Richard

Date sent:        22 Oct 1997
From:             Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com

Jack Ponton wrote.........

]In retrospect I'm still astonished by the distances we worked
]with this low powered kit. (I'd assumed anything that big had to
]put out at least 100W!) We had regular lunchtime skeds down to
]the midlands, and contacts to the South coast were, as I said,
]not unusual. We used long wire antennas, no one had heard of
]SWR, so you just tuned up for max RF current. Clearly, around
]5MHz is a very desirable piece of spectrum real estate.  I know
]that an allocation around there has been talked about. Based on
]this experience, I'd say it was well worth pushing for. What can
]we do to help our reps. here?

Agreed on the astonishing performance of the old sets on 5MHz. 
Any QRPers on this list, will write this off as nonsense, I
expect, but what I find amazing about it, was that we were able
to chat away - with ease - day in day out.  In other words we
had reliable comms, on old low power AM sets, many of which had
pretty poor modulation (e.g. WS19) on ropey aerials (the best we
had was half-wave dipole about one tenth of a wavelength above
the ground).  

Interestingly, I vaguely recall an article in RadCom some time
back, written by an amateur who had set up  comms links to cover
reliably distances up to a few hundred miles in Africa (AFAICR).
 He had more or less a free hand to choose the operating
frequency (this wasn't an amateur operation, I think it was for
some charity/rescue operation). He chose 5.0 to 5.5 MHz as the
best spot.

When you compare 5330 (admitedly in the 70s- possibly less QRM
everywhere then) with 80 metres now - well you only have to
(struggle to) listen to the MWARS net on 3625 on Sat mornings to
realise that it ain't too good.  I am sure the sets haven't
changed - the QRM levels are usually horrendous - and the fading
severe.  Really, only sets pushing out around 100W carrier can
communicate with the ease I remember from 5330, and no-one has
yet covered the distance of Edinburgh to the S.Coast (as far as
I know).

So agreed 5MHz is pretty desirable.  No idea what we can do to
get a new allocation here, but have just posted the same query
to the uk.radio.amateur newsgroup to see what the guys there
come up with.

Richard
G7RVI

From:             Jack Ponton  = jwp@chemeng.ed.ac.uk
Date sent:        Thu, 23 Oct 1997

Richard wrote...

]Anyway, I am in the middle of putting a VRC-10  - recently
]acquired from the continent - on the air.  I've yet to put up a
]6 metre antenna, and having never been on the band, I've no idea
]how much activity there is around Herefordshire or how well it
]will work.  Will re-post when I get my first 6-metre contact.

Good luck!  When I was last on 6m, a couple of years ago, there
was nothing happening on FM around here, nor on SSB/CW between
openings (which mostly happened when I was at work!) However,
there is likely to be more FM activity in your part of the
country, and 6m repeaters are coming in. During openings you can
certainly work the world with very little power and any sort of
antenna. I managed all over Europe with less than 10W SSB and a 1/4 wave
VERTICAL when I hit the right times. I heard of someone working
VK on FM with a similar setup.

There's no reason why we shouldn't use AM too on 6m. There's
lots of underused bandwidth most of the time. PW even published
an AM design a few years back.

Re: the WS19 B section, this was certainly a pretty
sophisticated superregen design. I remember building a s'regen
for 10m using an `acorn' valve. I never heard anything, but it
made interesting patterns on my Granny next door's TV set... Was
the DET20 the funny looking fellow with `horns': both the anode
and grid brought out to caps on the top?

73, Jack, gm0rwu

From:             Jack Ponton  = jwp@chemeng.ed.ac.uk
Date sent:        Thu, 23 Oct 1997
Subject:          Re: The good old days in UK

Richard wrote...

]Agreed on the astonishing performance of the old sets on 5MHz.
]Any QRPers on this list, will write this off as nonsense, I
]expect, but what I find amazing about it, was that we were able
]to chat away - with ease - day in day out. 

I'm also a QRPer. With CW you have a huge advantage, and so it's
scarcely a challenge above the milliwatt level... (I exagerate!)
 I've used SSB 5-10W quite a lot on HF, mostly 17m, with a
dipole, and when the cycle was up, fairly regularly worked E.
coast US. In fact I've had QRP SSB HF contacts with all
continents except Australasia.

But QRP phone SSB on lf/mf is very hard. With ~1W homebrew to a
fullsize G5RV (much more than we ever had for 5530MHz) I've
managed from the Scottish borders to GI and the
Cheshire/Derbyshire area, but this has certainly not been a
regular event, unlike the AM nets.

However, did you see G3RJV's QRP column in the last Radcom,
where he reported that UK low power (under 1W and restricted aerials)
medium wave AM stations were being received in Scandanavia? I
think the main problem is QRM rather than propagation. The
signals are there, but people would have to try much harder to
hear them through the noise. 

73, Jack gm0rwu

Date sent:        Fri, 24 Oct 1997
To:               af4k@earthlink.net
From:             Trevor Day  = trev@southwestuk.demon.co.uk
Subject:          CCF Radio

Hi Bry,
Just had a nostalgic look at your CCF page.  I used to operate
as call- sign 9C from school in Portsmouth during 1967/68.  Best
radio fun I ever had using either a 19 set or occasionally the
62 set which sat in the corner.  We used 5.33 MHz which was
designated as 'Delta Oscar'.  The sequence used to be: First
station on frequency called Delta Oscar over and over again for
a minute followed by "all stations Delta Oscar this is 9C radio
check over"  Then the fun would start. Happy Days... Trev G3ZYY
...-.- -- Trevor Day

(Note from Bry - here's a picture of Trevor at the rig in the old CCF Days:)

From:              David Gordon-Smith, G3UUR = esdgs@eng.warwick.ac.uk
Date sent:        Fri, 24 Oct 1997
Subject:          G3LYW and the good ol' days - really!

Bry,
     I took a look at the CCF radio web pages and was frustrated
to find message after message with the subject purporting to be
about 'G3LYW and the good ol' days' with nary a mention of G3LYW
until I got well down the list. I wish these guys would take the
trouble to find out how to change the subject in their message
header/take the trouble to do it if it's not  appropriate.

As an active 160M afficionado in the mid to late '60s and a
resident of Bath in the '70s I also have fond recollections of
John and the large nets that used to form around him. Living
only a mile or so across the valley from him at one time, I
spent a considerable amount of effort developing receivers that
did not sound as if the air was being ripped apart when he was
on 160M!!

I worked John about a year ago on 160M. It was a Sunday
afternoon and he was the usual thundering great signal despite
the fact he was using the half-wave rather than his full-wave
antenna.For those that still care and would like to renew their
acquaintance with him, he can be found on 80M on Sunday mornings
between about 8.30 and 10.30. He does have a favourite
frequency, but I forget what it is for the moment. Perhaps you'd
like to post this information on your website, Bry. I'll email
you next week with a report on the National Vintage Comms Fair
which I'm going to at the NEC on Sunday. Hope all is well at
Gaithersburg.

73 de Dave, G3UUR.

   Dr Dave Gordon-Smith
   Materials  Science
   Dept. of Engineering  Sciences
   University  of  Warwick, UK.

 

Date: 13/8/97 10:37 am
To: Richard Hankins
From: jlivingston@cix.compulink.co.u
Can anyone give me some idea where to start looking for a WS62
HF transceiver ? There were loads of these around in the 50s and
60s in the forces and some civilian areas.

I am looking for a complete and undamaged set - with a view to
using it as a 160 and 80M CW Qrp rig to accompany my Eddystone
680X. 

John
G4FDD

Date sent:        18 Aug 1997
From:              Richard Hankins = Richard.Hankins.3310463@nt.com
Subject:          Re: WS62
To:               John Livingston  = jlivingston@cix.compulink.co.uk

John (and the rest of the group),

Being a collector of such sets, I have some ideas where to look.
 Finding any particular set of this vintage these days is not
easy - particularly "complete and undamaged" - though I swapped
one last year, so they *are* about.   If I were looking for one,
and was unwilling to pay "silly" money, I would settle down for
at least a 6 month search.  You may ask: what is silly money ? 
Just the transceiver in a complete, unmodified but not
necessarily 100% performing state (i.e. needs re-alignment,
possibly some caps replaced, some new valves, etc)  is likely to
cost 70 - 100 ukpnds.  If you want it really complete as well
(i.e.  mounting trays, aerial, original h'book, headsets, remote
control equipment and so on) expect to pay 200 ukpnds and up). 
You can easily end up paying as much for the "bits" as for the
basic set. The simple reason being that those who value the set
and thus keep all the bits, know perfectly well how rare they
are now - those who don't (often amateurs turning out the attic)
chucked the bits long ago anyway, but may be persuaded to sell
the basic set at a lowish price.

Anyway, suggestions where to hunt down a WS62:  (Read no.6
first, as it contains details of one recent ad)

1.  Ads in the back of Radio Bygones

Naturally this is a favourite ad spot for such sets.  Contact
G.C.Arnold & Partners at:  Radio Bygones, 9 Wetherby Close,
Broadstone, DORSET BH18 8JB  for sub info, if you don't already
know about it.  Can also see them at various amateur rallies.  
Warning under item 2. applies to some extent - though prices
here will be higher, cos the sellers know what they are selling
!

2.  Ads in the back of Radio Bygones, Practical Wireless,
RadCom, etc.

There are nearly always a few ex-military vintage items tucked
away in these ads.  They are often a minor item in amongst those
headed "Yaesu" or "Kenwood", so a careful search pays off. 
Often used by those with "junk" to dispose of, so prices can be
low, but unfortunately there is now a breed of collector/dealer
around who also knows that are rich pickings to be had here. 
They are more than happy to clear out some amateur's loft if
given the chance, and will happily buy up everything for the
chance of one rare item.

To compete with such characters, you need to be very quick. 
Ring up immediately - don't haggle about price on the phone
(unless quite ridiculous) - and arrange to go and see the stuff
as soon as poss.  All obvious, I guess, but this is a
competitive aspect of the hobby I dislike.


2.  Go to the Vintage Communications Fair

This is held in the NEC every May and October, the next one
being on 26th Oct.  Past events have shown a very varied stock
of stuff.  Military gear is represented, though has not been a
major feature of those I have attended. 

3.  Join the Military Wireless Amateur Radio Society (MWARS)

This has some 250+ members, and bi-monthly newsletter with For
Sale and Wanted ads.  Cost is 7 ukpnds p.a. if in UK, and
contact for joining is John Taylor-Cram tel 01705 - 250463.  See
also the MWARS web page at URL: 
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Jeep_Man/MWARS.htm. 


4.  Join the MWARS 80m net and ask if anyone has WS62 for sale.

Any (suitably licensed) amateur can call into the net on
3625KHz, 0930 Saturday mornings, using AM (likely to be ignored
if you try SSB).  You don't need to be a MWARS member to join
the net, nor do you need old gear (just something putting out an
AM signal).  If you prefer CW, try the MWARS net on 3??? KHz,
0900 Sunday mormings.

5.  Attend the various Military Vehicle rallies around the
country.

The military vehicle collectors are avid buyers of radios,
unfortunately paying very high prices for any old box that looks
good (but may be full of old socks as far they know).  The good
bit - if you are really after the "complete" set - is that they
also want the externals to look just right, and thus tend to
insist on having all the add-on bits. 

6.  Contact one of the military wireless dealers.

This is a route I have only tried once (with success), though I
am told they usually have examples of everything stashed away,
or know a man who does!   Prices again tend to be high.  People
I would try are:

** Ben Knock   G4BXD    email:  G4BXD@compuserve.com   tel: 
01562 - 743253  (Try him straight away - has been advertising 2
WS62s recently, from £70) ** Mike Spicer    tel:  01273 - 508573
Ken Champion    tel:  01460 - 62658 John Lines:   tel:  01705 -
268318 Bob Egerton:  tel:  01608 - 642429

7.  Final suggestion:  try something else!

This isn't as silly as it sounds.  Waiting for a particular
vintage set to turn up, in the condition you want, at a price
you are willing to pay can be a long job.  Unfortunately there
are no sets (at least used by UK forces) that go below 2 MHz, of
the same vintage as the WS62, that are not rarer still (e.g.
WS12, WS52, WS68P, and only the last qualifies as QRP).  If you
are willing to consider something slightly newer (50/60s era),
then the C12 or C13 could readily suit you.  Being somewhat
later than WS62 they tend to have somewhat better performance,
and thankfully are not quite so rare. Both go down to 1.6 MHz. 
Prices are much the same as for WS62 though:  I paid 130 ukpnds
for my C12, and about the same for a C13, though you could still
easily pay 250pnds for a complete set with all accessories. 
Obviously, if you widen your scope further, and consider old
amateur or US/ European kit then there will be much more to
choose from, but I know very little about this stuff.

Hope this is of some help:  let us know when you succeed !

Richard
G7RVI
richard_hankins@nortel.com

Well, that's it for now until there is some more discussion on these fascinating topics!

A Great Big THANK YOU to all whose informative messages are posted herein!

Cheers - Bry, G3XLQ

| PAGE 1 | PAGE 2 | PAGE 3 | PAGE 4 | PAGE 5 | PAGE 6 |
| PAGE 7 | PAGE 8 | PAGE 9 | PAGE 10 | PAGE 11 | MAIN |