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Congratulations! This is how this debate started. It is one of the debates that generated a deep interest. A wide spectrum of participants , 23 messages (arguments & counter arguments) that created a heated scenario for almost one week, so much so that the moderator had to step in to close the debate! All in all, a good experience of what people think about the 'hype' that bureaucracy used to enjoy in our state. And what 'comfort feeling' the NRIs have. As a forward looking society this is certainly a sign of a much desired change.Msg: 1632 ,May 17, 2002 Congratulations : Alok Ranjan Jha!Since this group is about Bihar & Biharis, i'd like to Congratulate Alok Ranjan Jha who's the IAS topper this year. I heard this on Zee TV and was overjoyed to learn that he hails from Patna and is a Michalite and a JNUite!I believe he's the second person from Bihar to top the civil services in recent years. A couple of years back R.Barnwal was the topper. I happened to meet Barnwal in Patna just after the results were announced (in a family function of ours). Don't know where he's posted and how's he performing .. But achievements should be applauded. And i take this opportunity to Congratulate Alok for his achievement. He's now in Bihar's 'Hall of Fame' and sincerely hope & Wish that he continues to be there and do good for the state... Its just a wish ! On second thoughts, do we add Civil Service officers in the 'resource list of Bihar' Pritam Msg: 1645 , May 18, 2002
My heartiest congratulations to sri Alok ranjan Jha. He is not the second person who has topped the civil services examination. Amir Subhani topped the examination in the late 80s. By the way Barnwal is posted at Patna. I have got his conatct number. it would be a good idea to invite him to become a member of this group. NEERAJ Msg: 1660 Sun May 19, 2002 Though late yet sincere My congratulations to Sri Alok Ranjan Jha.Of course not he is the second person to scale this height. Besides Mr. Amir Subhani (1987), Mr Prasant Kumar (1988)and Ms Anu Agrawal (1989)(First Among Girls)who scaled this height.Besides many more have had positions in the top ten.I am very very thankfull to all those who contribute towards making Bihar"Pride" Bikash Msg: 1671, May 20, 2002
It is very good to learn that Biharis are maintaining their good reputation( in qualifying the civil services in large numbers and also securing higher ranks). However, I would like to make one correction.Amir Subhani was not the first Bihari to top the Civil Services Examination.Nigam Prakash who is currently the Indian ambassador in Argentina was infact the first one to do that. He topped in 1967 in all the I.A.S , I.F.S and I.P.S examinations held separately then.He was a student of St. Stephens college, Delhi and did his schooling from St.Michaels, Patna . He is the son of late. Sri. Krishna Prakash Sinha who was himself an eminent lawyer.Infact, I learnt from one of my friends' mom that his topping the Examinations had created a sensation in Bihar and especially in the Kayastha community.Mr. Prakash whom I know very well was a topper in the Senior Cambridge examinations too and was a very popular Doordarshan personality active in both dramatics and hosting programmes. Divya Msg: 1672 May 20, 2002: When does Bihar/Biharis have the right OGSM? Dear all- I couldn't stop myself writing this time (although I had decided
sometime back to restrain myself from responding/posting on this group) in
response to note on congratulating Mr. XX for his "achievement" in
topping the civil services exam. I don't want to be mean by depriving anyone from recognition. But, the
fact is recognising someone for wrong reasons will prompt huge amount of
further waste by Bihar/ Biharis. It is not a secret that for this kind of
recognition, thousands (or rather I say lakhs) of Biharis every year waste
their prime period of life-which could have been devoted in more meaningful endevours. I am sure many folks on this group might have spend a good amount of thier life living in lousy conditions in jiyasarai or JNU or Laksminagar or Indira Vihar for the so-called better future (or a momentary glory). Some of you might have realized it was a seer waste after failing to achieve your so-called achievement while some others might have realized the same after putting some years further in the so called elite service. And, by the way, do you think passing an exam is real achievement? If that was so, shouldn't Bihar be the most advanced state as Biharis qualify all kind of exams in huge numbers (whether it is railways/bank clerks throughout the country, or IIT-JEE or PO or IES or IFS or what not)? This is why I ask when will Bihar/ Biharis have right OGSM (Objective, Goal, Strategy & Measures)? Now, for some of you this question might seem like a corporate jargon (or for some, republican thought or for some a project management fundas- No sarcasm intended over here!). But, the fact is if you look around for the real winners in the world - corporate, nation, or individual -all of them have these right. And by the way, what has civil services achieved for the
country/coutrymen in last 50 years? (Again this is not intended to hurt
anybody feeling over here-I know there are many civil services member on this
group). Take for example the foreign
service- one of the most elite service among civil service- any of you living
abroad know that how pathetically they have performed as Indians are treated worst by other Govts/ countries. We
are the one who require visa for almost going to every country in the world.
We are the one whose visas takes maximum number of days to get processed. We
are the one who are checked at the airports maximum number of times. We are
the one whose embassy is so
intimidating that many fear to register themselves with their embassies. We are the one who need to fight on
ourselves as an individual without any backing (although we belong to a group
of one billion people) for putting a small
company in other country. Some of you might get tempted to argue that it is because of Indians behaviours and
their selfishness to immigrate to
other foreign country by hook or crook. But, the fact is even countries
having similar citizens behaviour or economic conditions are treated better.
Even a Malaysian, or a Thai, or an Nigerian is treated better than Indian
although their behaviors or economic condition are not better than us. So, who has failed? Whom do we pay to get
these things straightened up? Who has not delivered? Okay, take administrative services- what have they done in last 50
years? They created a baburaj
which deprived everybody. Today also we are riding on a lousy ambassador (including our Prime Minister) which should have
been thrown to junk 40 years back. Who created these policies in which these
kind of industries could survive and stop others (Indian or foreign) to even
enter the market. The only industry which grew in India- the software- is because these babus didn't understand it and they didn't put any of
the great plans and their geniuses to take it to heights!!!!. So, collectively this service is very mediocre. A few of those who are
good (forward looking, risk taking) were maimed, frustrated and succumbed to
this system of medoicracy. Those who didn't were forced out (willingly or
unwillingly). So, there is no point glamorizing a service or the people craving for this service, which didn't deliver. Yes, of course I am all for recognizing someone who delivered in this
service- Like TN Sheshan or KPS Gill-like in any other profession. But even
their recognition will be the recognition among the servicemen. And, their
service is no greater than a man who puts a rice mill in a remote village and
provides jobs and livelihood to their fellow people. I am not saying all this because I am frustrated and didn't get
through all these exams. But I am saying this because I wasted a good amount
of my life working on wrong OGSM. And, there were my fellow people (Family,
seniors, neighbours, gaon wallahs, and also well-qualified/ well-placed
biharis) who made me realize a wrong OGSM as the right OGSM. I wish there was
someone 15 years back who might have stopped me rather than praising my
bull-shit successes. I recall a very funny example. On the exit of my hostel during my college years, there was a big bill-board saying "Go out to serve your country and countrymen" and giving a message to stay in the country. I was one of those who followed it as a young boy. 10 years later I realized how foolish it was as staying in the country doesn't guarantee that you serve the country and country men better!!!! With regards, Rakesh. Msg: 1673 May 20, 2002 Rakesh, I agree with you 80%. But I didn't know how to intervene when everybody was seeing this as a great event so i kept quiet. I too wish that I hadn't wasted my time with the wrong OGSM. I wish I had the time for this discussion but I don't so kudos to you for stating your perspective and hope you will answer the queries of others who respond to this mail of yours. Harsh Msg: 1674, May 20 2002: One more fact ! Hi Syed Shahabuddin of Gaya and from Patna Science College was yet another topper in the year, I guess, 1954. He resigned prematurely retired and joined politics at the behest of Vajpeyee in 1977 and had been MP for few terms. Bhuwan Msg: 1676, May 20, 2002 hi everyone, i agree with what Rakesh says. i will like to ask a question to everyone here. what will yr reaction be if Shri Alok Ranjan Jha becomes one of the corrupt officers plus maybe takes a crore of Rupees in Dowry? the chances of which are very high. just making it into Civil services is not enough, u have to prove yourself to be an able and competent officer. someone who can make a difference. if civil servants were effective then Bihar wouldn’t be in this state as the no. of officers from Bihar is very high. but that’s not the case. if outsiders come and milk the state dry, at least one can say that they don’t have any feelings for the state. but when Biharis do so, what do u call it? however Rakesh, being a Civil Servant myself, i am bound to defend the services. u all may not agree but the civil services is one mode through which one can contribute the maximum towards development. one can be an engineer and Management graduate from an Ivy League univ and have a job in Silicon Valley earning Millions (or is it Billions?)but what difference can that person make to his/her state? if one really wants to do something, get into the civil services and be fearless, stand straight, look into the eyes of all politicians and do yr job. if this group can influence the younger generation entering the services then it will be a major achievement. but i think its a loosing battle against years of indoctrination about power and money. Reema Msg: 1677, May 20,2002 Hi Everyone, Rakesh's words are like wakeup call for us. I do agree that being an Indian we face lots of problems outside. Especially with immigration and embassies. Being Bihari itself creates a problem for us when we are in India. Take any state including our neighbouring state West Bengal, Biharis are treated in a different way there. Surprisingly this trend has started in the newest and the part of state which used to be in Bihar. Yeah am referring to Jharkhand. Looking at these none of the officers (either IAS or IPS or any civil service) has done anything to correct the situation. The morale of few of my friends from Bihar has gone down so much that they don't want to call themselves Biharis. May be because they feel that if they say they are Bihari, they will be ill-treated or rather will not get proper response. I see Mr. Jha being 1st in IAS as any other event which passes without anybody caring a damn about it. It will be fortune for the state if he does something for the betterment of the state. Now a days in simple terms civil services means a job that gives you all government provided facility + power + lots of money (bribe). I'm sure 95 out of 100 aspirants have that in mind rather than doing something for the country/state. Harsh how about bringing the person in discussion on board. I'm sure at least one of us will be in a position to contact him and explain him about the group and giving him a choice to become a part of the group. Cheers :-) Samir Kumar Mishra Msg: 1679 May 20, 2002 Rakesh has initiated a healthy debate. The hype associated with civil services has its roots in the licence-quota-permit raj of Nehruvian socialism that systematically destroyed the work culture of the country. So much power got concentrated in the hands of the bureaucrats that they were (and still are) traditionally viewed as heaven-born. Hundreds of millions of people who could otherwise blossom according to their own aptitude got disoriented because of the excessive publicity that went with IAS and IPS. There are excellent reasons why countries in the West are so far ahead of us. An individual in the government service is yet another person next door. In any event, a bureaucrat in the West will not be able to subjugate the civilians the way a BDO in India can. Post-1991 liberalization has somewhat mitigated the exaggerated importance associated with bureaucracy, still the mindset of the people (particularly in the rural areas) remains practically the same. Let everybody discover their natural aptitude and choose a profession based on their genuine inclination. The task is tough, but it is the only way out. Amen! Pranava K. Jha PS: In case I did not tell you about myself, here are some of the relevant particulars: Place of birth: Shirnia (Dist. Khagaria) I.Sc. from T.N.B. College, Bhagalpur B.Sc.(Eng.) in Electronics & Communication Eng. from B.I.T. Sindri M.Phil. in Computer Science from JNU, New Delhi Ph.D. in Computer Science from Iowa State University Presently teaching Computer Science at St. Cloud State University (Minnesota). Msg: 1680, May 21, 2002 A commendable effort Rakesh! The social hype associated with civil services must be busted off. It should not be glorified more than its share. As far as, wasting time in preparation for entering into civil service is concerned, I would leave it to the person, as it is a question of priorities and wisdom, and self analysis (by the way, I have not wasted a day for it, though no doubt was sort of victim of media and social generated hype while was quite youg). I would not say that chosing it as a carrier is not a good idea, but thing is other carriers may be equally fulfilling, demanding and contributing to the society. It is this factor which must be highlighted, and promoted in the society. Regards, Arun Msg: 1695,May 21, 2002 Reemaji I don't quite agree with your statement, "being a Civil Servant myself, I am bound to defend the services". Just being there does not mean that you need to defend, you need to defend only if you really feel in your hearts of hearts, in fact, you can be more critical and suggest reforms as you can have the first hand information. In fact, I was vehemently critical of elite character of IIT when I was in IIT Kanpur and when I was in the job in Delhi. As regards to guys going to abroad, I was equally critical in my early years but I have completely changed my opinion after coming here (I wish, I had come here soon after my graduation but then that time I was 'commie' type). Let me tell you the advantages, which the country gets by a person working abroad: It
is no longer a brain-drain as thought in Nehruvian times, it is really a
brain-bank. · By coming here, the person has vacated his seat of job to be
taken over by another guy who would have remained unemployed or
underemployed. In my case and like many others, we don’t think, our coming
out from there made any difference to the job at all—most of us were simply
gossiping and enjoying all the perks. · By visiting India, NRI spent lots of
money thus contributing to the economy whatever little that may be. · I know, many NRIs who help their family members and friends in dire needs like marriage of the girls, education of their kids. They are really ambassadors in the true sense. By being here in large number, they create a market of deshi stuff here whose only beneficiary is India. · In calamities, they raise funds to be sent to India. The last time we raised a substantial fund was during Gujarat earthquake. · They help their friends and relatives coming to abroad (which is not so easy as many of Is may assume) thus relieving the shrinking Indian employment market and giving opportunities to those who cannot/do not want to go abroad. Hope, I have not hurt anybody’s feeling. Regards, Bhuwan Mohan Prasad Msg: 1696, May 21, 2002 Namaste Bhuwan, Reemaji and Group, I also wanted to express and/or add my feeling about what Bhuwan and Reemaji are quizzing over.. Reemaji's comment: "Being a Civil Servant myself, I am bound to defend the services" Reemaji, services is not a kind of India Pakistan game where you are defending India just because you are an Indian irrespective of the proven fact that Indian team is a weaker side and lacks killer instincts, determination, and great team work. Services is perhaps an area considered to be most elite (still ????) and most responsible. Today, 7-8 officers out of 10 are a corrupt and dances to the tune of bihari politicians? Whom you are defending anyway and what for? Bhuwan is right, if you have to do good (Definitely you want to..) for services and people, bring reforms and become critical for your own good. You remember KABIR's doha .."Nindak Niyare rakhiye.." which talk exactly the same thing which we forgot long back. I am based in USA and whenever I go to India or when my friend's share their experiences at the airport. You may not want to hear that. I give you an instance. Officer's st the airport or check gate keeps shouting..passport..passport like they are asking for Billa number from elite NRI's and when they see a white skin..they become very sophisticated and words will be "May I have your passport Sir/Mam. Are you defending these officers? Me..forget about it ? Mind you guys , I am talking about officers (Supposedly class 1) at the gate and not screener. Bhuwan's second issues (Guys coming to USA or abroad): ----------------------------------------------------- This is the best that could have happened to India ? I wish, this would have happened 50-100 year back then we would be stronger and richer like Jews (Please don’t take Jews for their mideast strategy. I am just talking about how they get Israel funding and arms supply pumping from USA because of their lobbying in Washington and most law firms, financial institutions, insurance, hospitals and colleges in USA are a sanctuary and owned by Jews). I would not repeat what Bhuwan has already counted as benefits to india and indian people but I will simply add to it on bigger scale. The benefits are clearly seen from growing foreign reserves, global indian presence on world forum. At least world today knows that there is brown skin as well. If those officers in India want to do good for India then they should have a coordinated effort with thousands of high profile Indian Americans and get all the investment they can. We got to learn a lot from Chandra Babu Naidu who is a regular visitor in here. We need to build a very very strong lobbying in United States and UNO for prosperity of India (These are the practical aspects why some country fetches the bigger investments in trillions and some gets candies ). I give you one more instances of benefit of more and more quality Indians being here rather than attempting for IAS 1-4 times (For people, who just to become an IAS just for power, money and social and family pressure). Pakistan used to pump lot of money in American media to create a negative impression of what's going on in Kashmir and stuff and used to bribe Republicans to go verbal in media interviews against India and Indians here. Now since the Indian lobby becoming increasingly effective, this has subside and Pakistani are sweating over what to do next to harm Indian interest ?? Hey..hey ..I am not a foreign matter expert. Just want to flash on what I see and read actively with my eyes and analyzed Indian officers, their temperament and Indians doing good for India ? But definitely we should expect positive from Alok Ranjan Jha and these kinds of officers and wish from god to give them temperament to act like an IAS or IFS or IPS ..word by word (Akchcharsah palan karoonga like moveu by Manoj Bajpei "SHOOL"). These kinds of discussions are definitely a positive sign of desperation of us Biharis to be reformed and reform Bihar. Let's keep the hope and work towards it in our own capacity. Cheers. Ooooooooops did I hurt anybody ? Sooooooorry........guys. Comments are always welcome. Regards, -Deepak Msg: 1706, May 22, 2002 Dear Friends, I think a useless debate has started regarding the civil services. Anyway, since the debate has started, and I belong to the category of civil servant who has wasted(!) a couple of years to get through the examination, so I think I can also contribute in this debate. It is a fact that u can truly participate in the development process only through civil service. All the NGOs are also heavily dependent on the civil servants. Reema ji has stated the fact u can earn millions in US, but how can the country which has given u highly subsidised higher education (It is a fact that the higher education is one of the cheapest in INDIA), benefits from that. U pay your taxes there. U use your skills there. The only benefit that the country gets it the foreign remittances from them which is a peanut compared to the foreign exchange which INDIA normally receives from other sources. The loss of highly skilled and trained manpower after helping him/her to acquire skill and training is incomparable, which can not be compensated by few millon dollars. I can not deny the fact that the bureaucracy in general is very corrupt. But that is true for all of us. Corruption is prevalent in all spheres of life. It is only that in bureaucracy opportunity of corruption is more than the private sector. It is well known fact that all the deals between bureaucrat and businessman representing big Induatry houses are fixed by the executives of the company. That is not corruption? Now the bureacracy is heavily dominated by the Engineers especially from IITs. What happened? I am ashamed, but the fact remains that Indians in general and Biharis in particulars are very corrupt. The mentality of all of us is required to be changed.There is no point in blaming only the civil servants. I have observed that some of the bureacrats are very honest and hardworking and they have really done for the general public. It is a fact that an honest hardworking bureaucrat can change the future of many lives. In any case the govt. of bihar is still running only because of the civil servants as they still maintain some dignity, otherwise the politicians would have looted everything by now. Instead of blaming civil servants, more and more good people should join them becoz future of INDIA is in their hands and which is not looking very bright now. No country has developed only on the basis of the foreign aid. U can send billions of dollars from US but that would not make any difference at all, except clearing your conscience. As far as Alok Jha is concerned, I think he has opted for IFS(correct me if i am wrong) so discussion of his role in the development of Bihar is meaningless. I am extremely sorry if I have hurt anyone's sentiments. NEERAJ Msg: 1697, May 21 2002 Hi All, Little did I know that a "Congratulatory Note" will lead to such a healthy discussion on bureaucracy. I would like to present my viewpoints: A congratulatory note should not be construed as `glamorizing'. It was my personal way of acknowledging an individual's hard work, grit & determination. Period . At least he deserved that and I did that by saying "Well Done, Keep it it up". I won't shy away from doing it again if I believe a person has done that in a fair manner on his/her own merits. If I congratulate an IIT-JEE topper , will that be adding hype to the fact that he topped the exams?? The Achievement: According to me this is certainly an "academic achievement". Is it inappropriate to acknowledge this. Or is it perfectly proper to shrug it off `What's the big deal' ! Wasting Time to become a Bureaucrat who failed us: True they failed us. So what is the option left for us to correct this. Run away from these services or grab these jobs and do what needs to be done. When we talk of "wasting" time in preparing for these exams I am a little bit confused. We know very well - To secure an admission or a job in India is not very easy. It's the case of survival of the fittest. There is a cut throat competition everywhere. Even after doing a B.E or an MBBS you need to clear an exam (in most cases) to get a placement. We should realize that opportunities in India are not lying on the streets waiting for us in a silver platter. We need to grab them. Whether we grab the PO , the IAS , the Railway, the Engineer job, the fashion designer, the actor, the model or the architect's job we need to struggle to get them. And this struggle lies in the risk of "wasting your time" for an opportunity that you may or may not get. It's a question of clear cut strategies and plans in place. We get frustrated because a time bound plan and alternatives are not in place. Our failures should be a pillar of success and not the reason to justify things. Profession – the way we look at it: In my opinion, brick batting and dumping a complete job/profession is not fair. There are black sheep in all professions. I would go a step further and appeal to everyone that we look at all jobs/professions with respect. I'm particularly not happy with the way we attach importance and categorization to jobs. How many people do we come across who say confidently , " I'm a clerk in a bank " . "I'm an Electrician" , "I'm a nurse" Very few … And why does this happen? The truth lies in the fact that we tend to treat them as non entities. Their presence and contribution needs to be acknowledged in society. We need to tell our children and the younger generation that these are the jobs which are necessary for the society. Without any one of them the society cannot exist and hence they are all good & important. A job well done with integrity and honesty is good. A person should be free to choose his job as per his liking, aptitude and skills. And we should learn to honor the likings of the coming generation and not kill them with our prejudices and pre-conceived notions. The moment we do that we will again be falling in the trap of the people who talked to us about civil services alone! Remarks: Rakesh : Congratulations for bringing up this topic for discussion. Indeed you initiated a healthy discussion. At one point, I was also pressurized by my family to take the civil services exams. Fortunately, I never wasted a single day because I was able to do a self diagnostic analysis of what I should and can do. I hope you'll take my arguments in the proper spirit. There's absolutely no intention of framing a reply. Dr P.K.Jha: Sir, Thank you so much for your balanced opinion. I'm also a BIT Sindri alumnus (Electrical Engg : 1986-1990) . If I'm not mistaken you passed out in 1977. (Samir, this should answer your question) I know quite a bit about you now coz I managed to go thru' the alumni list and navigate to your personal homepage. I liked the one liners that you have in your web page – it made me stop for a while and read those lines again & again! Reema: What if he accepts a dowry….. Well, my reaction would be similar to the one when I learnt that Azhar was involved in match fixing. Mr. Krishnamurthy as the CEO of SAIL brought the organization to a level of profit making PSUs. Later on he was behind bars for his misdemeanors in the hawala scam. Who knows the future, so why to diminish the hope because some of his predecessors have followed an unacceptable path. Is it not proper on our part to keeps our hopes alive? Skepticism is based on prejudices which again in not a wise thing. Who knows he might turn out to be a Kiran Bedi or a TN Sheshan? Harsh : I agree with you 20% so that makes it a complete 100 %. By the way, you should not shy away from putting your viewpoints coz 3-4 people responding to my congratulatory message does not constitute a group opinion. There are people here who do not express themselves for various reasons (paucity of time/relevance/interest etc..)Is there a way we can get some of these civil servants on board so that we get a chance to hear their point of view too! Arun: I will agree with you in toto ! Final Word: I agree to a great extent with Rakesh & Dr PK Jha that these civil servants damaged the very fabric of a forward looking social order in India. What annoys me is their attitude – Most of them lack innovative ideas, there is absolutely no sense of `customer service' which is so important during these times. Msg: 1707, May 22, 2002 Neeraj You have stated some excellent points. I plan to write a mail titled "NRIs - A Reality Check" this weekend. A lot of people may not like it but since so much praise has been heaped on NRIs, I think that the views of the other side should also be known. Will write in the weekend. Harsh P.S - I'm getting fed up of people writing defensively and apologizing that they did not want to hurt feelings. Some extreme versions have seen people loudly saying that the views stated were theirs and that anyone who wanted to oppose them could contact them personally. I think that this turn of events is extremely unhealthy. No one here intentionally wants to hurt anyone. Those who did were turned out. We are exchanging views and we need to exchange them frankly but taking care not to direct and target our mails at specific members. My mail on NRIs is going to prickle and raise the hackles of every NRI here but it is not targeted at any individual member. I must state what I see as the truth and people who who do not agree should reply similarly. That is how a healthy debate and exchange of views begins. There cannot be a healthy exchange if members keep on apologizing and wondering whether their words contain any unintended harm. Msg: 1709 May 22, 2002 Hi All Neeraj has raised some of the most pertinent points and I must respond to some of these. How come engineers from IIT and elsewhere (now even doctors) after gaining highly subsidized education going into Civil Services and allied jobs are different from those who 'run' away from the country? At least those who have run away from the country are doing something for which they have been trained. No matter how bad the politicians may be and how corrupt they can be, they are the ones who rein in the bureaucrats, army and other organs of the society. Democracy is the least worst system of all the system of governance so far tried. Unlike bureaucrats and other officers who make money, spend only on themselves or on their relatives, politicians who make money spend on some of their jantas of their constituencies (I am no way condoning corruption of politicians as opposed to others). Just because of democracy, the corruption of politicians and others to some extend, come into light. I need not detail the level of corruption and governance in the countries where there is no democracy. I think, no matter how corrupt the polity of India is at the present moment; one of the greatest achievements of independent India has been a thriving democracy. It is the time of maturing of democracy and it has to go through labor pains as it is going now. Democracy has to penetrate to grass! s-root level and the services which were created by British to serve themselves have to undergo a sea change so that they serve the people. One needs to read Amartya Sen to gain more insight. Harsh has exhorted us not to be apologetic so I have no option now. Regards, Bhuwan Msg:1711, May 22, 2002 Dear friends, Yes, I am talking about the group discussion about civil services. Slowly (and it will be disappointing and dangerous!) it is turning out to be pro or anti civil services vs. pro or anti technocrats (more specifically, NRIs). Anyway, it is fruitless, nonproductive at all, and mostly never ending. What Rakesh, I guess, wanted us to note that civil services should not be singled out for glamour. And what, Pritam responded was also valid that "black sheeps are in every profession". Reemaji was bound to justify (and let us not be too idealistic while judging her stance. I think majority of us will do the same thing. I mean, ask any NRI and he can site many wonderful reasons about his being and doing right thing. Bhuwan is not an exception!). Today, Neeraj has written his views, which I suppose will get further reactions (include me, as well!). Though it is premature to speculate anything about the content of Harsh's next mail on NRI, but if summery is indicative of the real content, then it is going to invite further debates. The list probably goes on! Let us put it straight, MAJORITY of the people including us choose the profession/carrier not to serve the country or state, but do so for securing economic stability, earning social respect, and probably serving country or state in more meaningful way comes only at the hindsight. Had it not been so, most of the academically talented (if that is the best criteria to judge BEST or most CAPABLE person) would have been in the politics. SO, most of the time, if an IAS or IPS/IFS says that he selected it to serve the country/society,,, take it with a bucket (not pinch!) of salt (because many of them are victim of social and media generated hype). NOW! ...our attention should be focused mostly AFTER one has decided his/her carrier, and our respect MUST be based on tangible fact describing his/her performance and in carrying out his/her duties associated with the position. Thus to say, a corrupt IAS must not be considered a great personality in a society, and an honest peon should get more of our respect. IT is this kind of attitude probably which we need to evolve and spread as a group of educated Bihari. Let us try our bit. Want to write quite a lot in response to Bhuwan's (feel good) and Neeraj's and Reemaji's critics of being a NRI. I think both of the parties have valid points and evident by a very simple fact that ANY society does need not only able administrator but apt and intelligent technocrat. You can take any country, US, JAPAN, or UK in perspective. Both serve the society, the former more directly but the latter little bit indirectly. Can you imagine today's US with development of car (Ford?), rocket (who?), nuclear power (Einsteen) and of course IT (Bill gate)? Same is true for other societies. NOW, let us look back home, is contribution of honorable Abdul Kalam is comparable to even the most successful civil servicer? Contribution of non residents in development of country is not a secret (think of especially smaller countries like Taiwan, South Korea, even in china. BUT, then NRIs had better prove this in India, rather than citing dumb reasons like economic support to nears and dears and vacating the position for others and their contribution to foregin exchange reserve (most of them deposit money in India mostly due ot high interest rate as well as tax benifits, anyway).. they (including me, I have been out India for more than 10 consequitive years) owe a lot more than this to the country, society in general and state in particular. SO, finally, it is not what you are but what you do should be our criteria to bow our head and praise. And, let us be bold about it. We can start it individually and by doing so can influence the people in surrounding. Hope, mail was not too boring.. For now, Arun Msg:1714, May 22, 2002 This is exactly what I have wanted to write about. But Arun has pipped me to it. NRIs relate to India only because of the benefits India gives them. I do not see NRIs doing anything for the social good except throwing a few coins at the times of calamities to ease their conscience. India is served by many NGOs who get aid from foreign agencies who in turn get their funds by raising it from common people in the west who genuinely aim to help starving and poor people. In contrast NRIs do nothing if it doesn't fill their private coffers. In the 1991 BOP crises, the NRIs were the first ones and the only ones to withdraw their money from India. That this withdrawl could lead to a BOP collapse weighed nothing on their minds. The country could go to hell but their private riches had to be maintained. The Chinese , South Koreans, Japanese do not behave like this. The Chinese are quite active in philanthrophic efforts in their country but I see few NRIs working to contribute to the social good in India. And some even disparage volunteerism. The reason is not hard to discern. How can they support something which calls upon them to fulfill a responsibility without getting anything personal in return? NRIs need to clean up their act. This mail is only to point out the truth about NRIs and hope that in future NRIs will do more to contribute and not be enconsed in their own private worlds where everything revolves around "me" and "mine". More on this later. Harsh Msg: 1716 May 23, 2002 very well summed up, i must say. harsh...what say u to having arun as another moderator??/ folks...one last comment on civil servants...dont be so eager to write them off...though majority is corrupt...even they are doing a lot..at a cost and at extremely adverse circumstances. my intention was never to criticize NRI's...but as far as development of bihar is concerned....1 IAS is capable of doing what 10 NRI's cant do in their lifetime. that beauracracy is not doing its bit....was the reason why some of us were apprehensive abt being euphoric abt alok ranjan jha topping the civil services. it was something like sushmita sen winning ms. universe being equated to the rise of women empowerment in india. hence...we have come full circle. and yes...one more word...."bound"... added besides "help" in the censor list. hahahahaha. have a nice weekend folks reema. Msg: 1717 , May 23, 2002 Hello,
I could not hold it further. Just to make everyone aware of the fact:
This group is being founded with the aim of enabling Biharis help .……. Based on the that can I request all to stop debating on things that are not going to help this group and Bihar. Already some have exprssed the similar things. What is good or what is bad? Who contributes what to what extent and how are things to be analysed by agencies. PLEASE STICK TO...... WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR BIHAR? Regards Rajive Msg: 1720, May 23, 2002 Agreed. Thanks for bringing us
back to the Vision/Mission of the group. Both sides of the NRI debate have
been represented so the issue may be closed without any protests from either
side. Harsh Msg: 1722, May 23, 2002 Dear all- First- this is NOT a response
to the messages posted on the subject matter. Experience has shown that
arguments are "not often" unproductive but it is "always"
unproductive. However, I must say that I am
pained to see the way topic got degenerated so fast and the way people took
it personally (However, this was not unexpected and that is the reason I
restrain myself from posting on this group). In the whole argumentative process,
the crux of the topic was lost. The larger issue is "Do Bihar/ Biharis
have right OGSM?" And, here the topic was whether passing an exam like
civil services is a right measure? And does this measure help us to achieve
our goals and objectives as a bihari society? Obviously, my intention was not
to start a debate on paraphernalia- of whether civil services or engg or
management or entrepreneurship or farming is better for an individual? Of
course, civil services was used as a means to discuss the larger issue.
Unfortunately, the means became an end. I wish I had a better communication
skill to keep the folks to the topic. Now please allow me to address
a question posed several times, which I deliberately avoided- "What can
you do for Bihar/ Biharis?" Again this is not to argue with anyone
(everone has every right to believe what he believes). But, just to let you
know my belief/conviction. I think taking the "Bucket and Fawra"
and go and dig the bihari land is just one of the way of serving Bihar/
Biharis. But, this is not the only way neither past result has shown that
this is best way. (Again,I don't want this group to start discussing about
the "Phawra and bucket" but to understand the context). Execution
is important. But, history has shown that it is not the execution but the
design based on certain principle-based OGSM and direction setting which
makes the biggest difference between a winner and looser (for any nation, or
any society). Now, don't tell me to define the OGSM for Bihar. Beacuse, it is
not written by one person but evolves. And, personally I don't think today we
have correct OGSM and that's why I will do everything to influence this
evolution process as much as I can. (And let me tell you this is not an
utopian thought, but my conviction that this is the right thing to do). With malice towards none- Rakesh. (PS- Harsh- I don't think
over-moderating is the right strategy. Over moderation is like a central
planning process. History has shown it doesn't work- No need to respond to me
on this. Think and if doesn't make sense, pl. ignore). |
