Space, Time, Labour, Emancipation
16th January, 2001
(Final, Corrected Version)
WELCOME ....
You have just
entered room "panta98 Chat 85."
CarlzimC has entered the room.
Einai2000 has entered the room.
naranjahit has left the room.
panta98:Hi! Carl.
Invited the others.
CarlzimC:Hi, Franz, Iris, Stella
CarlzimC:And
Jutta?
naranjahit has entered
the room.
CarlzimC:Where's Stella?
panta98:Stella just flew
out. Jutta is signing in.
CarlzimC:OK
Einai2000:Carl,
good evening! Glad you could make it!
naranjahit:
hello
Einai2000:Hi,
Franz!
Einai2000:Stella!
Hello!
naranjahit:
Hi all
CarlzimC:Glad to be here. I
must limit typing and must leave at 8:30 pm Venezuela time
Einai2000:all
right, Carl!
Einai2000:Franz,
is Jutta having problems to sign on?
Einai2000:Okay...
naranjahit:
ok
panta98:No, problem,
just wait.
CarlzimC:OK
naranjahit:test,
can you read me?
juttaschmi has entered
the room.
Einai2000:I
read you perfectly well, Stella.
CarlzimC:Yes, Stella
naranjahit:thanks
CarlzimC:Hi, Jutta
Einai2000:Jutta!
Hi!
juttaschmi:Hi
Carl.
juttaschmi:Hi
Iris.
naranjahit:Hello
Jutta!
panta98:There we are, our
"Blue Angel" is with us today!
CarlzimC:Franz, please introduce
the chat
juttaschmi:Stella!
It is a pleasure to see you!
CarlzimC:Un plaisir to see
all!
panta98:Well, for better
or for worse, let's start!!!
juttaschmi:Nice
to have you back, Carl!
panta98:Chat Folk, our topic
is: "Space, Time, Labour and Emancipation".
Einai2000:all
right, Franz. Agreed, Jutta!
CarlzimC:Great to be back.
juttaschmi:Franz,
please start.
naranjahit:yes,
go ahead, Franz.
juttaschmi:*Iris*.
Introduction ...
panta98:We will concentrate
our introduction around the two following issues which were voiced in the
previous chat:
CarlzimC:Yep, Franz
panta98:"juttaschmi: Now,
as we are heading towards another phase of the labour process, time and
also space disappear correspondingly. The question is: How is intellectual
labour being measured, when physical labour was measured in time parameters?
"
panta98:"panta98: I said
it on various occasions, Labour = Man = Labouring Man = Alienation. How
will Labour fade into oblivion? Only when man itself vanishes; the Truth
is as simple as
that! "
panta98:"juttaschmi: Do
we talk about "space" and "time" in phenomenological terms? What appears
in space and time? The very labour process, so called "History"?
panta98:panta98: And, Thanks
God! He, Man, is vanishing at a very high velocity, as far as Motion, Space
and Time are concerned! "
juttaschmi:I
remember this, Franz.
CarlzimC:Yep, Franz
Einai2000:Same
here, please proceed, Franz.
panta98:So, are you all
on orbit --- Take off, Scotty, At The Controls, Dr. Spock!!!
juttaschmi:Beam
me up!
Einai2000:Beam
me "out"...
CarlzimC:I think Man is not
vanishing, but changing.
panta98:Yes, Dr. Watson,
Agatha, and Holmes, are also with us!!! Carl, as Labour, as Alienation,
changing into it's own Nothing. Into Emancipation.
CarlzimC:Homo Hitechnicalis
panta98:Here, we go!!!
juttaschmi:Hunter,
too. Gell, Iris?
Einai2000:...&
Dahl, aber hallo!
CarlzimC:El guapo, also.
panta98:Before we touch
the very crux of the matter, and thereby interpenetrating the very enigmatic
existence of Time, at first, let us look at some fundamental issues concerning
us, our attitude and expression with regard to Science and Philosophy,
and to Labour itself.
panta98:What our Science & Philosophy are all about, see: http://www.oocities.org/juttafranz/eng_1.html . There in 36 lectures, developed between 1998 and 2000 we have posted the fundamentals of Emancipatory Praxis & Theory.
panta98:Although our
Science and Philosophy include, can take into consideration, any form or
whim of official Society, whether it is patrian bare-faced lies, ideology,
newspeak, ignorance or mediocrity, -- and we can identify and understand
all of the above mentioned as irreal, absurd and perverse entities--, ...
panta98:Too fast, Stella?
naranjahit:no
it is ok, thanks
panta98:... nevertheless,
we do not act as sell-outs, turn-coats, lackeys or henchmen, that is, with
them we do not enter into rotten compromises, into gentlemen agreements,
into a "Social Contract" of whatever nature.
CarlzimC:Add religion, Franz.
panta98:Yes, Carl. I must
admit, we were very careful till now, very considerate: we have exercised
"scientific politeness", "philosophic correctness", cyber netiquette. But,
what did we reap all across the globe? I need not portray the reaction,
in everyday life, you all know it all too well.
panta98: Yes, Carl, especially
the Nigerian Muslim variety of religion.
panta98:Proceeding ... The
truth of the matter is that we are sick and tired of "newspeak", of talking
about a "financially challenged", when somebody is simply a "bum", a "wretched
of the earth"; of somebody who is "mentally challenged", when (s)he is
simply an idiot, a moron, is crazy, ...
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Franz.
panta98:... of somebody
who is "physically challenged" when in reality, (s)he is naturally maltreated,
is a physical invalid, a human wreck, a Vietnam vet. In fact, everywhere,
on Internet, in the schools and universities, in everyday gaff, "newspeak"
reigns already since ages.
juttaschmi:Newspeak
is an obstacle to thinking.
panta98:Carl, is it not
like that in the USA nowadays?
juttaschmi:It
probably is like this all across the globe, Franz
panta98:D'accord!
CarlzimC:Islamic fundamentalists
may start a Jihad and the result may be the destruction of the whole Muslim
world.
juttaschmi:If
you don't apply the proper terminology, you are "out like south".
panta98:Excellent, Carl.
panta98:Certainly, in future,
we could spare ourselves the intellectual "time" and mental "space" of
indulging in such "politeness", etiquette and "correctness", in useless,
senseless, absurd consideration and reconciliation. Soon, when we have
our ID's, our "chips", even this will not be possible anymore.
Einai2000:Agreed
Jutta, and it's the inherent aspect of "official" terminology/method/"scientific
approach" at university, too.
juttaschmi:This
is a mayor point and pain for us, Iris! -
juttaschmi:I
changed colour.
CarlzimC:The NWO is starting
to give false sympathy to Iraq, then follow with war
juttaschmi:Franz,
we have to apply our own concepts, I agree.
Einai2000:I
changed my colour and face ;-)
panta98:Yes, Iris,
about that I could sing the "Thousand-And-One-Night" gaudeamus igitur
here at the University.
Einai2000:But
please proceed, Franz -
juttaschmi:Iris
looks like Anthony Hopkins these days, Carl and Stella.
juttaschmi:Proceed,
Franz.
panta98:Proceeding ... Thus,
using our own language, our own expressions, we will now simply get down
to some own urgent tasks, to our emancipatory subjectives, objectives and
transjectives.
panta98:In this "spirit",
we will proceed now. We will call wine, wine; a spade a spade; a bum a
bum. And we don't care, who likes it or doesn't like it.
naranjahit:I
like that!
panta98:On all scientific
and philosophic counts, "space" and "time" are superstructural, ideological
fabrications of ruling ideas, of ruling classes, of all ruling ages. Labour
gave birth to Time and Space, produces them, and reproduces them.
panta98:Even the very philosophic
titans, the gigantic ideologues of Labour, Capital and Reason, Kant, Hegel,
Marx and Engels, had stated this ruling, ideological fact expressis verbis,
in unequivocal terms.
panta98:Me too, Stella!!!
CarlzimC:Time is money
juttaschmi:Exactly
so, Carl (el guapo).
panta98:Yes, Carl.
panta98:Who cannot even
read and understand his/her very own ideologues, and cannot even comprehend
his/her very own ideology, well: May the Good Old Lord, Big Brother, Bless
Her/Him! May (S)He Rest In Peaceful Ignorance!
panta98:May (S)He Enjoy
Grand Education, the Great God, the Great Idea, the Great Man, the Great
Race, Great History! How can (s)he understand anything about "space" and
"time", about Kantian "intellectual categories" or "universals"?
juttaschmi:No
easy road to emancipation, Franz.
juttaschmi:We
have to oil our brains. Oil for the lamps of our own illumination.
CarlzimC:Yep. Today, ineffective
thinking is killing people
panta98:Exactly so, one
must not be a "bum", but must sit on one's bum, and think and study
consciously.
CarlzimC:Hallelujah, I'm a
bum.
juttaschmi:Mine
hurts already!
juttaschmi:No
Carl, you are "financially challenged" (Newspeak). ;-)
panta98:People don't
even know that they are being killed, to be killed, they must first have
lived! Who lives? Do Billions live?
Einai2000:(please
All, save the chat. The message come in here with some delay, I would not
be surprised if I will get kicked out)
juttaschmi:True.
To die, you must live first.
panta98:Yes, I'll save it,
I forgot!!!
juttaschmi:We
will, Iris.
Einai2000:...will
have to read back, please proceed
panta98:Proceeding ... As
far as we are concerned, "Space" and "Time" are and do exist in the "stenchy"
"dark holes", in the obscure, stinking, contaminated "pot-holes" of arid,
vile Patrian Labour, in its putrefied Alienation, in its irreal, irrelational,
irreversible, surreal farce, in its macabre, sordid, perverse "world".
CarlzimC:I've been saving chat
naranjahit:stenchy?
juttaschmi:As
such, they surely do exist, Franz.
juttaschmi:stinkig,
Stella
naranjahit:ok
juttaschmi:
:-)
naranjahit:
:-)
Einai2000:...ok,
back.
panta98:Proceeding ... Hence,
like the billions, Space and Time ARE, in the sense, that they ARE
NOT; they exist in a way that they do NOT EXIST. This is their
monistic "essence", their dualistic "existence".
CarlzimC:
8-)
panta98:They live
in war, and they rest in peace, in their very own formal-logical Non-A,
in their Parmenidean Globe, in their Godly One-And-All. There Time, as
Money, as Capital, devours Space, annihilates Labour itself, alienates
"Man", crushes labouring "Man".
CarlzimC:Time = motion
CarlzimC:Space
= distance
panta98:Yes, Carl. And above,
is your: Time = Money!
panta98:There Space and
Time function, they produce Motion, they reproduce themselves; there, they
prostitute Labour, they whore Capital.
panta98:There they beget
Man Himself, at least, all those who consider themselves to be among the
'chosen few', the creme de la creme, the Men and Wo-Men, who form part
and parcel of His-Story.
panta98:On this level of
identification, essentially, scientifically, naturally, we can handle "Space",
we can touch hell, can live physically "East of Eden", can spatially move
to Mars and back to Earth. On this plane, even Nixon and the kids can play
the "War Of The Galaxies" Game.
CarlzimC:On the Mideast forums,
both sides, even teenagers, mostly talk religion. Get nowhere
juttaschmi:Time
and space do matter in the process of producing profit. Time as the measurable
entity by which to calculate the exchange value of a commodity, and space
as a variable that is important in the distribution section.
panta98:Of course, Jutta,
we'll come to that just now!!!
juttaschmi:ok
CarlzimC:Time and space = marketing
tools
panta98:On this degree of
differentiation, existentially, philosophically, socially, in the Patria,
we can move in "Space and Time" to hell and back, anywhere, anytime, for
that matter.
juttaschmi:Yes,
you could say so, Carl.
juttaschmi:To
hell and back = to work and back. ;-)
panta98:It is not
"Armstrong" who like a madman was jumping spatially around on the Moon,
it is NASA and the Pentagon which spatially-temporally are marauding, pillaging,
colonizing, socializing, galacticizing Luna, for the welfare of future
Lunatics.
panta98:Over the millennia,
the very same thing happened here in slave, feudalist and capitalist geolatry,
in merciless natural exploitation, so, why not also in "future" intellectual
lunatry, that is, why also not elsewhere in the formal-logical galaxy?
CarlzimC:And Mars too
juttaschmi:Hang
on hang on, Franz and Carl. I think the "space" colonization has also to
be analysed in other terms and parameters than time and space.
panta98:Yes, Mars-idolatry
-- Marsatry!
CarlzimC:Yep, Jutta
panta98:Of course, seriously
we can discuss the above, can study Einstein, Max Planck, Tesla, Don Albert;
scientifically and philosophically, we can argue valid issues within the
valid parameters of this specific level and degree of History.
Einai2000:This
is getting most interesting, please proceed. Agreed, Jutta!
panta98:Later, Jutta. In
the discussion period!
panta98:Just don't forget
the theme, please.
juttaschmi:As
you have indicated on various occasions (07/11/2000 for example), the whole
labour process is exceeding itself, and so it won't "galacticize" in the
sense of labour and the production of profits anymore.
juttaschmi:ok
Franz
panta98:proceeding .....
No problem. But this is not the only reality, the only world, our only
private, absolute knowledge.
panta98:Now, coming back
to Jutta's question: "How is intellectual labour being measured, when physical
labour was measured in time parameters?
Einai2000:thank
you, Jutta ;-)
juttaschmi:You
are welcome, my dear Iris.
panta98:Within the Fatherland,
Labour -- and its labour products, of whatever genre, including Man, --
is -- and can only be -- measured, -- valued, whether use-valued or exchange-valued,
-- within socially necessary space-time paraameters.
panta98:It just depends
on what degree -- or on which degree -- we are measuring the exchange values
of unfolding Labour and its manifolding products. Physical, Intellectual
and Rational Labour have different levels and degrees of space-time parameters.
panta98:For example, in
"primitive productions", due to the still social character of Labour, the
degrees of the time parameters for natural exploitation were set by chance,
by trial-and-error, by ancestral habits, customs, rites or magic.
juttaschmi:Exchange
values can only be measured in time/space parameters.
panta98:Just now, Jutta.
D'accord!! Already twelve thousand years ago (in time parameters), in the
Middle East, when professional artisans and peasants had lived side by
side next to each other, primitive, petty commodity production had emerged.
juttaschmi:ok
panta98:There, here, "Time"
-- a certain degree of rotational time -- beecame extremely relevant. The
agricultural products of a farmer's day's work was exchanged for the artisan-type
products of a weaver's day's work.
panta98:As Labour became
more organized, over the centuries, became more capitalized, became a higher
form of its own existence, things changed, hence, also the temporal parameters
changed.
panta98:Ever since the 14th
century, in Europe, Labour became "socially" recognized, that is, it became
Private Labour. This the very "law of value" assured, insured.
juttaschmi:exactly
so, Franz
panta98:Yes, Jutta. Days
of Labour became equivalent to Labour of Socially Average Productivity.
Labour-Time = Social Productivity. Time became Money, Capital.
panta98:Not forgetting that
commodities are goods possessing use-value, and that they are being produced
by human labour for exchange, thus, we know that the value of wares are
measured by the natural quantity (a spatial parameter) of labour socially
( in time ) necessary to produce them.
juttaschmi:And
time and FORCE, labour-force, went together in this labour process, being
the latter one a kind of "energy".
panta98:Yes, now you come
to our central theme. ... Logically, In the industrial epoch of "to produce,
to sell in order to buy", the (exchange) value of any commodity is determined
by the average labour-time socially required for its production. This "labour-time"
is the "time" which we experience. As "labour creatures", as "labouring
men", as labour products, we have no other time.
juttaschmi:Truly
so, Franz.
panta98:The commodities
are changing, they reach higher levels, higher degrees. Even the "space-time"
of NASA is "labour-time", is a certain degree of "Time", is "physical-intellectual-(rational-)labour-time".
juttaschmi:Exactly.
panta98:And how does Labour,
on the degree of Capital, within spatial-temporal parameters, move, produce,
reproduce, eliminate, alienate itself?
Einai2000:...please
slow down a bit, Franz... thanks.
juttaschmi:Perhaps,
at a certain point, commodities won't even be commodities anymore - no
more determined by space and time parameters.
panta98:Yes, Iris. It gets
complex, complicated -- more incisive, more precise! Agreed, Jutta.
naranjahit:interesting
point Jutta
panta98:Firstly,
in spatial terms, in "Big Fish Devours Little Fish" fashion, in Labour
devouring itself, in competition with itself, Labour concentrates, centralizes,
merges, globalizes itself as Capital. In fact, it devours its own space
parameter, destroys it.
juttaschmi:Ever
less TIME is being needed, to produce ever more sophisticated commodities,
with ever less exchange value (as precisely determined by time).
panta98:Secondly,
Labour's Rest and Motion, the Organic Composition of Capital, the Relation
between Constant (A) and Variable Capital (Non-A), in Hegelian Dialectical
Inexorability, as a result of Intellectual Labour and Property, is reaching
absurd "Absolute" standards.
CarlzimC:Yes, Jutta; e.g.,
industrial diamonds can be produced on some planets using their atmosphere
CarlzimC:at
no cost
panta98:Agreed. It (the
relation) threatens to strangle growth, which reaches stagnating giga-heights,
consequently, it is eliminating Space and Time, Motion itself, hence, it
annihilates Alienation, Labour Itself.
panta98: Thirdly,
and what about Nature, about Physical Labour, about the nearly 6 billion
human commodities, the natural resources? Progressively, they are being
destroyed, eliminated, decimated, pauperized, returned to dust and ashes.
Labour begins to devour itself, starting with its own rattish tail.
juttaschmi:Good
example, Carl, and thanks, Stella.
panta98:Yes. Carl.
panta98:Fourthly,
Labour, at its degree of Capital, reaches accumulative limits; is suffocated
by its own spatial parameter of expansion and by its own temporal parameter
of breath-taking technological growth.
juttaschmi:"Growth",
Franz, what exactly is "growth"?
panta98:To say it in a more
simple fashion ...
panta98:In other words,
its average global rate of profit is diminishing; devouring the small fish
and its big counterparts, killing its physical labour reservoirs, destroying
itself, destroying Capital in wars and space exploration, are all just
worsening its death agony. Homo sapiens sapiens is fading away, fading
into Magellanic cloudy oblivion.
panta98:Finally, fifthly,
globalization, the perverse socialization of production, the introduction
of intellectual production, demonstrates the self-decay, the destruction
of the superstructure of Labour, of "society", of Man, of the "labouring
animal", of Alienation itself.
juttaschmi:I
agree to your analysis, Franz. The progressive destruction of labour, capital,
commodities, labouring man - all aspects of the same thing - is in full
swing, so to speak.
CarlzimC:Homo sapiens may form
cyber-colonies
panta98:With that, we have
completed the verification of my previous statements: ....
CarlzimC:Internet communities
to survive
juttaschmi:-
This would already be another kind of "homo" then, Carl. Homo planetaris.
juttaschmi:Homo
community.
panta98:.... I said it on
various occasions, Labour = Man = Labouring Man = Alienation. How will
Labour fade into oblivion? Only when man itself vanishes; the Truth is
as simple as that!
CarlzimC:Yep, Jutta. It's starting
today
naranjahit has left
the room.
juttaschmi:(Iris!
- How are you?!)
panta98:And, Thanks God!
He, Man, is vanishing at a very high velocity, as far as Motion, Space
and Time are concerned! And, now, let's chat!
THE DISCUSSION ...
juttaschmi:Reinvite
Stella please.
CarlzimC:Yes, please.
Einai2000:I
tried to reinvite her.
Einai2000:yes,
I'm trying to contact her. At least, she's listed, Franz.
CarlzimC:Hey, guys. The President
of the Congo was just killed.
juttaschmi:What?
Einai2000:Stella
just told me that she is trying to rejoin us. Hang on...
juttaschmi:Ok,
Stella will join us in a minute. Franz, please proceed.
CarlzimC:I sent Stella a message
on ICQ
juttaschmi:Or
do we start the discussion now?
panta98:Which Congo, Carl?
panta98:Kabila?
CarlzimC:I'll check the news.
Please wait
panta98:OK! Carl.
CarlzimC:Kabila
juttaschmi:Kabila
was killed?!
CarlzimC:Yep.
CarlzimC:Yep.
Coup
panta98:Jutta, please continue
here ....
panta98:juttaschmi:As
you have indicated on various occasions (07/11/2000 for example), the whole
labour process is exceeding itself, and so it won't "galacticize" in the
sense of labour and the production of profits anymore.
CarlzimC:What will it do -
Kill Congo Presidents?
juttaschmi:Okay.
The problem is, that the only thing I can further state is, that we would
be talking about a process that is not to be captured in space/time parameters,
and also not in "production", "labour", "capital", "nature" and "society"
parameters either. ...
naranjahit has entered
the room.
CarlzimC:Or trivialize
itself?
CarlzimC:Hi,
Stella
Einai2000:Back
again, Stella!
naranjahit:
hi all
juttaschmi:Hi
Stella.
panta98:Let's continue, guys!
With all due respect for revolutionaries and the African 'deceased", nothing
out of this world really happened; probably, only a killer was killed ---
Hegelian Double Negation, back to the Synthesis, a new Affirmation of Global
Political Domination!
juttaschmi:I'm
afraid you are "right", Franz.
CarlzimC:The issue is the system
of killers as the heads in Africa
naranjahit:
What
were you talking about?
panta98:I see nothing, Stella.
Change your colours, please, not your philosophy!!!!
juttaschmi:Stella,
I said: "The problem is, that the only thing I can further state is, that
we would be talking about a process that is not to be captured in space/time
parameters, and also not in "production", "labour", "capital", "nature"
and "society" parameters either. ..."
CarlzimC:I think it's related
to your discussion, Franz
juttaschmi:Stella,
be a Chameleon and change your colour, please.
naranjahit:yes
juttaschmi:Please
explain further, Carl.
panta98:Stella, Kabila in the
Congo, the President, just got killed, in a failed military coup!
CarlzimC:Death squads at the
top
juttaschmi:What
we call the "New World Order" -how many have there been? - is just setting
the stage for the process to go into another stage.
panta98:Continue, Carl &
Jutta, please. Iris, where are your 'famous" questions, we are in your
region!
juttaschmi:Africa
is but a horrible field of experiments in order for the "new homo" to take
off.
CarlzimC:NWO = death squads
= the new labor = alienation. Correct?
panta98:Homo what, Jutta? Homo
who?
juttaschmi:Correct,
Carl.
juttaschmi:I
don't know if it is homo at all, Franz. A matter of definition, I guess.
panta98:No homo anymore, after
this all, there won't even be an "after", no "the day after".
Einai2000:The
problem is, Franz, I don't know how to put the question - maybe, by which
parameters could we possibly talk about a "transformation" process? Transformation
"into" "what"? Sorry, I don't know...
CarlzimC: Homo dummkopfalis
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Carl. Homo destructionis.
juttaschmi:dumbfolks
and dummkopfs.
CarlzimC:=destructionalis
Einai2000:Excellent,
Carl and Jutta :-)
juttaschmi:Thank
you, Iris.
juttaschmi:This
is the big question: TRANSFORMATION INTO WHAT?!
panta98:"Trans" surely, Iris.
Trance, no. Form, Formation, no. Another Bezug, Relation, Iris, a bit of
"-cending".
juttaschmi:Do
we get any clues from the current destruction process as to what other
kinds of processes "exist"?
panta98:A bit of "sense", "incense".
Transincense!
CarlzimC:Transformation into
mind controlled robots with a few exceptions
Einai2000:Or
maybe we would have to analyse "more" or "other" than "another" kind of
process?
juttaschmi:There
are clouds in my brain tonight - too many cigarettes and incense sticks,
Franz.
panta98: Trans-in-sense, Transcendence.
juttaschmi:But
Carl, the mind controlled robots have been there all along the process.
They have just "improved", we might say.
CarlzimC:Jutta, do you smoke
cigarettes?
Einai2000:I
spare you any comment on the clouds in my brain, dearest Jutta.
juttaschmi:I
actually do, Carl.
panta98:OK, jokes aside.
CarlzimC:Please quit. Critical.
panta98:Your question is very
serious, and complex.
juttaschmi:I'll
give it a thought, Carl. Please proceed, Franz.
CarlzimC:Yep, Franz. Carry
on
Einai2000:Ok,
Franz, please comment on Jutta's observation above, please, on the possible
clues we could perceive from the "current" destruction process...
panta98:Form, morphe, is an
idealist, spiritual category. To transform, is to change the form, logically
changing Form A into Form Non-A, that is, Alienation, Labour.
juttaschmi:What
other kinds of processes are we dealing with, Franz?
CarlzimC:Natural processes.
e.g., Tesla free energy
juttaschmi:Transformation
remains within the boundaries of a given process.
panta98: Existential, qualitative,
superational, rational, relacional ones, for example, just to mention a
few.
panta98:
Labour cannot change its form, embedded in Space and Time; it cannot transform
itself
radically, it cannot change beyond the limits of A and Non-A.
CarlzimC:Examples, Franz?
juttaschmi:The
problem is, that I am still stuck with the labour/space/time parameters,
and it is hard to transcend them, indeed.
CarlzimC:It can change its
form in cyberspace
juttaschmi:Probably
NASA could help here ...;-)
CarlzimC:Cyberspace
= No space and time
panta98: It can only transform,
develop, grow, become bigger, greater, --- nothing else.
CarlzimC:Not in Cyberspace,
Franz
juttaschmi:And
Hegel: Alles was entsteht, ist wert, daß es untergeht - all that
comes into being, is worth vanishing.
juttaschmi:No
problem with that one.
panta98:Even on TV, on Internet,
Larry King has a Cyberspace, telling us that he must now go to commercials;
also that his Time, in terms of Cybertime is up, and that Greta will soon
be there.
CarlzimC:Larry King's illusion,
Franz
CarlzimC:He
was on TV, not true cyberspace
CarlzimC:e.g.,
there is no difference in space and time on this chat
panta98:Yes, Carl. Larry fits
somewhere in Cyberspace, with his programme in CNN, and he is limited by
some Cybertime. On Internet it is the same. You buy a "space" -- a .com,
and your time on Internet is up, when you don't pay the annual fee.
panta98:On
Internet, also Space and Time are Money!!!
juttaschmi:You
seem to have a point there, Franz. How can we truly be/exist/transcend
as space- and timeless?
CarlzimC:Now I understand.
That can be overcome. There are true free ISP's
CarlzimC:But
their service is not free, so you gotta be a tekkie
panta98:They will soon give
up the Cyberghost too -- when Big Brother has taken complete control of
the Net --- after all, he created it, Big God!
juttaschmi:Simon
might be the first one of the Crew to transcend in this sense, Carl ...
panta98:Probably, jutta.
CarlzimC:Jutta, we all have
to some degree
juttaschmi:He
is everywhere and nowhere in "milliseconds", in fact, he is omnipresent
and omniabsent at the same "time".
CarlzimC:Same with us, Jutta
panta98:Carl, to transcend,
we have to surpass capitalist, global wares, goods, and the Internet is
produced by Labour, and it is a merchandise.
CarlzimC:Not the entire Internet
panta98:I saw a film, The
Sphere, there three people had their own Internet.
panta98:What
they thought happened, and they could communicate with hell, heaven and
purgatory, all at once, all together.
juttaschmi:Franz,
if this whole thing is going to make sort of a "qualitative jump" into
something else, without labour/profits/space&time, would we still have
to say, that the latter ones are "contained" in it (aufgehoben, as Hegel
says)?
panta98:Which Internet not?
Ethernet?
CarlzimC:All are the same,
anyway
panta98:Ether Physics Net?
panta98:Well,
Bill will have to introduce us to that transcending net!
CarlzimC:In Mideast chat rooms,
there are encounters between Israelis and Palestinians - impossible otherwise
panta98:Iris, coming back to
your question, now covered by a smoky blanket.
CarlzimC:otherwise
Einai2000:Yes
Franz, the movie... And what they thought was or corresponding to reality,
however, finally they came to the conclusion that them, the "human Being"
must reject the "Sphere"... Ok Franz, please proceed...
CarlzimC:Barriers are becoming
a joke
juttaschmi:Agreed,
Carl.
CarlzimC:Franz, please continue
panta98:Your question is complex,
because it cannot be asked in spatial-temporal terms.
Einai2000:Excellent
question, Jutta!
panta98:Our brains are so concocted,
so compact, so consolidated, that we can only think and ask questions in
such terms.
juttaschmi:Capital
at this stage does not know any barriers, neither economically, nor politically,
nor socially - space and time parameters are changing in this respect,
too.
Einai2000:...Unfortunately
so, Franz.
CarlzimC:Agreed, Jutta
panta98:There is where we go
along, Jutta.
juttaschmi:Of
course, I know, that we are dealing with something neither aufgehoben nor
not aufgehoben.
juttaschmi:But
how do we "think" or grasp this?
panta98:We can only imagine
any change, motion, growth, development, in spatial-temporal categories.
CarlzimC:How can we change
this?
juttaschmi:(For
Carl: "aufheben" = sort of being contained and negated "at the same time")
panta98:Anything else, for
us, generally, belongs to nothing, to nothingness, to the unthinkable,
to craziness.
CarlzimC:Thanks, Jutta
juttaschmi:You're
welcome, Carl.
Einai2000:Yes,
most probably we don't "think" it either, Jutta.
juttaschmi:We
have reached the limits of thinking, definitely.
panta98:Your problem, Iris,
is first to transcend the spatial-temporal barriers, and then ask the question.
juttaschmi:Thinking
has to do with Intellect (& Reason), and is bound to the limits of
the labour process and it's parameters.
panta98:Not, in cowboy, Texan
style, first shoot and then ask questions!
juttaschmi:*booooomm*
juttaschmi:?
Einai2000:Well,
then I fear it will take me some time to ask any question which might make
some sense, Franz. Terrible.
juttaschmi:Have
I shot and then asked the question, Franz?
juttaschmi:I'm
afraid so.
Einai2000:No,
it was me, Jutta.
juttaschmi:You
can call me "the Texan" from now on.
juttaschmi:
;-)
Einai2000:Call
me by any name, I can take it...
juttaschmi:Anthony.
panta98:"Thinking", yes, Jutta.
Our Philosophy has no problem in asking non-spatial-temporal questions.
I could ask Iris' question!
juttaschmi:Hopkins.
Einai2000:for
instance.
panta98:And it would be even
an answering question!
Einai2000:Do
so please, Franz
Einai2000: fine
panta98: The emancipatory,
transcendental Answering Question is: What
is NEITHER Labour (A) NOR Capital (Non-A)
?
panta98:The
Questioning
Answer: What is!
panta98: Identified, in other words, "What is" = HISTORY ! This is what comes "after" the "Patria", "after" Labour; What is = HISTORIC EMANCIPATION.
Fading Out --- Bye .....
CarlzimC:He guys. Gotta leave
for a while. I'll return.
Einai2000:
All
right, Carl. See you later on.
juttaschmi:Please
come back later, Carl.
juttaschmi:We
need your input!
panta98:But, let's explain
all these much simpler, so that we all could also enrich each other!
panta98:
It's too complex for a chat!
Einai2000:I
fear so, Franz.
naranjahit:the
problem is I am dead tired!
juttaschmi:I
am having difficulties, too, Franz.
juttaschmi:And
Stella is falling asleep. It is late.
naranjahit: ... clouds
and nothing else...
panta98:Yes! Poor Stella.
juttaschmi:I
would like to make a suggestion:
Einai2000:Shall
we resume then next Tuesday? What do you suggest?
panta98:I myself have immense
difficulties, due to exactly the space - time barriers.
juttaschmi:I
will give this all another thought, and prepare a little introduction for
next 'time".
panta98:Could we stop here,
and Jutta introduced this topic next time
Einai2000:This
is fine with me, JuttaFranz&Stella.
juttaschmi:Agreed.
I would resume the time/space problematic within our general context, "labour".
juttaschmi:Carl,
what do you think?
naranjahit: Ok,
that sounds interesting Jutta
panta98:Carl, agreed?
Einai2000:Carl
has gone already?
panta98:OK!
juttaschmi:Perhaps
we all can give "time and space" another thought, and continue next Tuesday.
juttaschmi:I
think Carl is not at his computer, he said he will be gone for a moment.
Einai2000:Probably
he has stepped out and remained online, yes, Jutta.
juttaschmi:Yet
he is still online.
juttaschmi:So,
Iris and Stella: Can you help me next Tuesday with the introduction?
naranjahit: Ok,
then have a good night!
Einai2000:Talk
to you tomorrow, Jutta&Franz
panta98:Bye!!!!
juttaschmi:Goodnight,
dear Stella!
panta98:Bye!!!!
juttaschmi: Byebeybyebye
Einai2000: Goodnight
Stella, take care please...
naranjahit: Send
the chat please, I don't have all
panta98:Take Care!!!!
juttaschmi: Byebye
Iris. We'll send the chat, Stella.
Einai2000: And
JuttaFranz, please say goodbye from me to Carl!
naranjahit: Bye!
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