|
Emails
The following
is a summary of the response made by individuals involved in the collaborative
project. The response was mainly emails that were sent through the list:
my webpage
Wed, 24 Apr 2002 23:26:53 +0100 (BST)
Hi guys!
I belong to the UK team.Just wanted to say that I'm very proud to be
working with Austrian students because I feel very close to your ideology.
I just wanted to let you know that I've uploaded your work to my personal
web pageIts not much but I get about 50 hits a month! check it out:
<http://www.oocities.org/ets_ukteam/>
j
P.S I'd
welcome any contributions to my site!
Paul Thomson
AW: my webpage
Wed 24/04 Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:46:05 +0200
hello, mr
or mrs noname
your webpage is a really stupid and primitive statement.nobody of us
agrees with your ideology and it is sad that you make jokes about this
time, where the nazis caused a lot of harm.we all support a multicultural
society and do not agree with
your neonazi stuff. the aim of our project is to show theimportance
of a tolerant and multicultural approach.i want to inform you that your
statement is against several laws (Wiederbetätigungsgesätz)
in austria and it is possible to take legal
steps against you,!!i hope for your, that during the project (if you
are really part of the projectmembers) you will learn, that your ideology
is wrong.
paul
James Colins
RE: my webpage
Thu 2 Thu 25/04 Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:24:25 +0200
Hi ppl,
I'm not willing to include any political discusion in THIS WAY into
the project. I clearly want to stay in distance from any nazi content.
If any chance of reflection is permitted and/or not possible, then including
this portion of sh*** is totally pointless. Who ever included members
of the Ars Electronica Futurelab, which are clearly above any doubt
of any kind of sypatism with the displayed content, may immetiatly post
a statement or stay away from this list, and the project. There is a
chance, that this person wanted to be over smart, and provocative -
at the same time actually very boring - I hope the
names of the Lab members will disapear immediatly from this page, in
order to find any starting point of a discussion. I'm not willing to
start any further exchange before that.
Richard
Richardson
Thu 25/04 Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:28:50 +0200
fuck you! this is not funny at all !!!!!!!!!!
you are stupid and you don't understood what happend in the past
Albert Klein
25-4-2002 (forum)
i wanted to ask Karel Dudesek what he wants to say with his pictures.
i didn't get what they were aiming at and they can be easyly misunderstood.
have you realized that austrian students have been mentioned at a neonazi
site(with the names and a link to our website) .............Albert Klein
Jack Jackson
AW: my webpage
Thu 25/04 Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:00:04 +0200
I forward
this to you in behave of Laura Grey, who is as well on this page ---
i don't know if you wanted to be funny - i can tell you you were not.
in fact, i can't imagine anything worse that you can tell about people.
i feel personally insulted, but more than that i can't understand how
people like you think. no matter what your reasons are, i can't accept
that. and i think, noone should. as a very poor sign for showing my
deepest disgust for your act, i have confronted a lawyer with the matter
in order to take legal steps against you, as far as your personal data
is known now. i can only speak for myself
(and even for that i still can*t the right words), but i want (YOU HAVE
TO!) remove my name from your so very ugly and extremely stupid site!
Laura Grey
@gmx.net
don´t_call_me_white!
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:29:04 +0200 (MEST)
The connotations
wearing my nerves thin
Could it be semantics generating the mess we're in?
I understand that language breeds stereotype
But what's the explanation for the malice, for the spite?
Don't call
me white
I wasn't
brought here, I was born
Circumcised, categorized, allegiance sworn
Does this mean I have to take such shit
For being fairskinned? No!
I ain't a part of no conspiracy, I'm just you're average Joe
Don't call
me white
Represents
everything I hate
The soap shoved in the mouth to cleanse the mind
The vast majority of sheep
A buttoned collar, starched and bleached
Constricting veins, the blood flow to the brain slows
They're so fuckin' ordinary white
Don't call
me white!
-----------------------------------------
and by the way: who the fuck are you anyway? no matter if male or
female,
you´re nothing but a retarded little racist
bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!better put your
head between your legs and kiss your aZZ
goodbye,..
Ed Edison
AW: my webpage
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:32:26 +0200
hi.
i want to stay in distance from any kind of nazism or racism and i don´t
want to see my name on sites containing such content.
.... i don´t wanna see those websites at all.
so remove
my name from the site!
nazi means "NATIONAL socialist"
- did you
know?
peter
Julieta
Leveratto
Feedback
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 18:12:52 +0000
Firstly,
I think there is a missunderstanding on what this project is about.
If you read the characteristics of the project carefully (you can find
it at www.aec.at/swarm) you will see the following statements:
"Characteristic
_ Exploring
Collaborative Authorship is based on an evolutionary system.
Only strong and comprehensibly communicated designs survive. (Survival
of the
fittest)
_ The individual contribution to the project is constantly challenged
and redeveloped
by a collective.
_ The course is based on a self-evaluating mechanism. That is to say,
there are no
teachers who judge the individual work but the collective.
_ Exploring Collaborative Authorship goes beyond world wide webs primary
means
of communication based on test an images by sharing and exchanging
actual 3D-model data.
_ Most importantly, the course replaces individual authorship with collective
authorship - one of the main features of (networked) collaborations.
Pedagogical
Intentions
1. The courses
forces each student to take one of their colleagues work as the
basis of their own design and thereby reveals how the dominance or
relevance of individual authorship in (networked) collaborations can
easily
shift in every design stage.
2. The limited time frame for each design stage forces students to make
their
decisions on the design work quickly - a circumstance evident in
contemporary (networked) societies.
3. Students are constantly asked to communicate their design intentions/
decisions
in a comprehensible way to their colleagues. Contemporary
(architectural) practice reveals that those who are not understandable
will get no commissions."
( March 5th, 2002)
This means that I am entitled to make use of your work as I wish.
j
John Smith
AW: Feedback
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:34:32 +0200
to julietta
i think you are mixing up two points your site insults the participating
students on a personal level. you put them into the context of nazi
activists - anyone who finds your site accidentaly over a search engine
must get the impression that the people listed there with their real
names are activists in the nazi scene this is not an apropriate offer
for
discussion as you call it! after these personal insults, you cannot
expect that people join happy discussion about the program of the project
- everyone was really shocked finding their names and contributions
on this page. after that experience, implying we would want to "silence
the issue" is the next thing that is absolutely inadequate. hope
you see the difference between having an opinion ( that the named persons
are in the right wing scene?) and offending people ...
j
Jack Jackson
AW: Feedback
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:06:40 +0200
"No
matter what you mentioned, they turned your words and had found a reason
to act" (Ida Fink)
Laura Grey
to you all, but especially in response to julietta leveratto
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:10:25 +0200
I just don't really know where to start.
From a historical point of view, I can only say that you are as wrong
as one could only be. My grandparents come from Czechosolvakia and Rumania
and I don't have the slightest idea where my relatives before came from.
If you intended to start a discussion, then I assume, zhat you won't
get bored if I tell you about my grandparents. One of my grandfathers
was in prison for several years because he didn't like the nazis. There
was a demonstration against the nazis in Wels and he was walking on
the banister of a bridge showing his disgust for the regime.My other
grandfather was away for a very
long time. I didn't get to know hiom personally, but as my grandma told
me, he never wanted to speak about what had happened during the war.
Only when he was asleep he told about people, who didn't know eachother
and both of them were so frightened, that they just couldn't do anything.
Both didn't like to be where they were, they were farmers from their
deepest hearts. They departed from eachother with increased fear, but
no wounds. This happened all over the time of war, and I think, he's
not the only one with such experiences. During the late 1940ies my granddad
came home - he had walked all the way from eastern Russia to Czechoslovakia.During
those years my grandma, only 22 years old, was alone on the farm. Soldiers
from all nations came and killed the animals, destroyed the house, tore
put the water pipe, raped women all around,...
My grandparents were reputiated from their home by other Czechs. Their
children didn't have food for weeks, didn't have clothes during the
cold winter and one chil died in my grandma's body because of the heavy
conditions.Until the 1960ies they worked for food, my grandma wasn't
allowed to go to church when her mother, who sche hadn't seen for over
10 years
because she wasn't let out of Chechoslowakia, died.Although she was
milker, she didn't get a bit of milk to feed her baby child, which was
my mum. When I grew up, I didn't make any differences between people
in general. I ould and can only tell. If I like a specific person or
not. This is not dependent on race, age, ....It's a decision I make
because of personal contact. That's the way I was told and the way I
feel. I can hardly say what is typical for the country I live in. When
I heard about this projet, I thought that the biggest differece between
Austria and England was the food. That was my original idea of joining
the project, evaluating what the matter of bad taste could be. And I
meant it ironically. I can't cook good myself. I just wanted to play
role model. I hope, the person who wrote the mail on thirsday, 25th
of April, also wanted the project group to do so. Or, to make clear
where we stand, personally. I mean, you can't expect us to know what
"the Austrians" think in general. You couldn't say that about
"the British", neither. Because there is and there was never
such kind of group, neither "the Austrians" nor "the
Britisch" ever existed. There is me and there is the person who
claims that my colleges and I are nazis, that's the way I read your
webpage at least.I don't know how familiar you are to the Austrian school-system.
But from the age of 10 years on, there is not a single subject, where
you are not also told about the Austrian nazi-history.
I believe that Germany and Austria are the countries, where you don't
even believe, that there was a positive time in history. When I think
about the thing I have been told by my grandparents, I know that nobody
had a good time during the 1940ies, and I know, that most of them didn't
appreciate what had happened - to them, to people they have stood vis-à-vis,
and in general to all people - because they have understood something
that the person who posted the unbelievable mail seems to have forgot:
that people can empathise what others feel, what INDIVIDUALS feel, not
stupid nations, put up by some kind of stupid master-plans!!! I just
read the next stupid mail by the person who wrote the first stupid mail.
Can't you see that the thing we mean is not a question of democracy?
It is of course, undirectly, but first of all you are violating personal
feelings and rights, which - if you have the slightest idea of politics,
are the basis of every democratic system. Your behavior doesn't differ
at all from the nazi methods: "vote for my proposal or otherwise
you are a nazi." Do you think this is the basis for any kind of
open talk? Do you know that the way you are going is just the opposite
of what you are pretending? My grandparents never blamed any nations
or peoples or individual people for what had happened. I don't know
your (à 25th mail-stupid's) personal history, but don't balme
me for mine. I'm definitly not a racist, but I have the strong feeling
that you are. Which could never lead me to the conclusion, that the
rest of your group or "the English" are.If there was a point
that we all (and that means everybody everywhere!) should have learned
and pracitced, is that you cannot judge without reason. And you didn't
give me any reason for feeling like a nazi. I am not. The other participants
of "Embrace the swarm" here in Linz are not and I don't believe
that the one's at your University are. You are the one who is working
with patterns that simply don't work.
Really, and I am really hardly hit and appalled, your mail gave me a
hard day (and also the people around me). I didn't expect such enormous
stupidity when I joined the project. It is not the topic, that I don't
want to talk about; it is the way that you are incriminateing the people
that you freely work with. If you don't accept the ruels of democracy,
I think you are completely wrong in this team. Because, if you forhot
it writing your stupid page, democracy also means that the indiviuals
decide, if they want to join something. YOU didn't let me choose, you
forced me to tell you, how stupid you obviously behave. If you are lucky
with this result, if this is what you intended, then good luck for the
future you CHOSE.
Laura Grey
Laura Grey
CC: Lewis Lawyer and John Simth
again to julietta: AW: to you all, but especially in response to julietta
leveratto
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 21:52:43 +0200
......and
I forgot that I am really courious about how you try to justify the
methods you used. and this time try to THINK before you act and think
about a more argumented way. this is what I personally want to know
- and I am not only asking!
Also, I wanted to inform you personally, that this will not remain a
problem between you and me, as I wrote in my first mail. Despite that
I am a little concerned about you mental health, it is your decision,
what you put on your webpage. Obviously, you think, that Austria is
full of nazis, but just as obviously, there is a law against "wiederbetätigung"
- a word that was invented for describing the reactivating of nazi-ideology.In
Austria it is not only forbidden to spread out nazi-ideology, people
who do so are also sent to prision. I'm not so familiar with English
law, but as far as I know, it doesn't differ too much.
For me, this is no longer a problem connected with the project "embrace
the swarm". you mentioned me personally, so this turns out to be
a problem between the two of us.if your intention was to just heat up
the discussion, you have definitely chosen the wrongest way of all.
i wish you the same nice day that i had! laura
(if you want to reply to me personally:*****)
Laura Grey
AW: again to julietta: AW: to you all, but especially in response to
julietta leveratto
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 22:14:51 +0200
and another thing I forgot to mention:
office-time ( alsoo for the lawyers) starts at 9am here, so that would
mean 8 am for you. until then, we should have received a really good
explanation for your act and as well an excuse to all the people you
mentioned on your stupid-non-project-personal-website.
I hope, this was clear enough
Laura Grey
again and again to julietta: AW: to you all, but especially in response
to julietta leveratto
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:05:36 +0200
really, I' m a little disappointed - as you wanted a discussion that
desperately - that you still haven't answered. be sure, I won't give
up. Focus the weekend of the 11th of may and keep an hour open for me,
cause I'm coming to London. I hope, you won't miss a discussion from
one person to the other.
Laura
Steven Campbell
embrace the swarm
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:47:22 +0200
To whom it may concern, to Julieta,
due to other responsibilities I am committed to I was not able to keep
up with all the happenings of today in detail - however, the early morning
screenshot of the homepage of “ES etc.” I received as well
as the page in its current form forces me to make some comments ? even
after such a busy day. Dear Julieta, after I have talked to Michael
this afternoon between two really strenuous appointments I realised
that there is a certain criticism on the project - a criticism directed
towards the project outline I have written in particular. Michael made
this unmistakable clear. Now, there are several things I
would like to say in this respect:First, I do believe that the way and
form you placed your criticism was neither necessary nor proper. As
you know, it is a very sensitive issue, particularly here in Austria.
As you can imagine, all those who have read your message have been insulted
incredibly. And as a matter of fact, I cannot imagine such an offence
as a starting point for any communication. Rather the opposite happens
- which then is more then once mistakenly considered as a sort of “silent
commitment”.
Second, I would like to comment my text as it seems to be the nucleus
of all your actions: At the time the project has been initiated I/we
thought of a virtual design studio for artists and architects; that
is to say I/we thought of a platform which allows the placement and
exchange of all kind of works done in various media (models, plans,
drawings, etc. - of course in digital format). Now, due to my architectural
background - where the competition is the rule (love or hate it) - I
also thought of a system that may allow all participants to evaluate
the contributions by themselves and not by a certain “Master”.
So, in other words, I tried to conceive of a work area that not just
questions traditional educational systems in the sense of the Beaux-Art-system
but which should prove if the quality of the result of a cooperation
can compete with or even surpass the quality of results by an individual
author. Of course one might raise the question about what is the best
idea or the best design? There are no answers to such a question as
all judgements are related to subjective views (see Kant); and this
was
precisely the reason why I thought of a method where participants should
judge the others contributions rather then one (guiding) person. If
this idea about the platform has been communicated wrong or even if
its conceptions appears to be wrong so why was it necessary to act in
such an aggressive way? Why didn’t you come up earlier with your
thoughts and addressed them directly to us at the beginning of the project?I
would like to stress, that by no means I ever had racist or what so
ever intentions by conceiving this project.
Third. The preparation of this project took us - the staff from the
Ars Electronica Center (AEC ) and I - almost one year. It caused us
a lot of (unpaid) time, ambition and patience to convince many key decision
makers to allow and finance such a project. To name just a few examples,
the Dean of the University of Arts hired just for this project staff
from the AEC, the CEO of the AEC thought of an integration of the project
at the forthcoming Ars Electronica Festival, etc. In the meanwhile,
I even could convince a leading Austrian lightning company to exhibit
the project in the “Lichtforum” Vienna as well as that they
may finance the project. I was asking the Ravensbourne College to write
a letter of reference to proceed with the negotiation with the British
Council in order to acquire money to realise the results in reality.
And lastly, even due to the fact that I have missed the deadline I was
still allowed to submit our project (which has been considered absolutely
interesting) to the Medida-prix 2002 in the name of the all participating
institutions - so also in the name of the one you are representing.
This price is donated with approx. Euro 100,000. So, to come to my point,
we were really looking forward for a productive cooperation - now it
has become pretty fast destructive. And not just because of the way
of criticism but also because all the institutions I have named above
are connected to the web-page or mailing list. Again, I have nothing
against criticism.
To conclude, and to be honest, I have no idea how to continue this project.
It is not just the case that this project - which thought to bring people
with various cultural and educational backgrounds together - took them
finally apart, it is also the fact, that it becomes increasingly difficult
(at least for me) to have trust in people who after we friendly and
open minded welcomed them for a cooperation treat us in such a way.
Steven Campbell, half Austrian half Palestine; immigrant
xxx@hotmail.com>
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 23:09:23 +0000
Hi.
Ich hätte gerne Bilder von Dir.
Mene Vorlieben sind rasierte Muschi und gutes ab(an)spritzen. Und Deine?
Julieta
Leveratto
Re:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:07:37 +0000
AND YOUR MOTHER TOO!
julieta - martine - nadia
James Colins
RE:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:17:52 +0200
? What do you await now? a: "thank god, we are changing the object!"
?? ? I can't follow... bye -j-
Julieta
Leveratto
RE:
Friday, April 26, 2002 4:23 PM
es la unica respuesta que se me ocurrio despues de recibir un mail escrito
en aleman.
James Colins
RE:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:25:11 +0200
hablas aleman, tambien? bye -j-
Julieta Leveratto
RE:
Friday, April 26, 2002 4:29 PM
no, pero michael me dijo lo que significaba. ante un mail inmaduro,
respuesta inmadura, no?
j
James Colins
RE:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:54:43 +0200
si, pero porque me occurio? bye -j-
Julieta
Leveratto
RE:
Friday, April 26, 2002 4:59 PM
no entiendo, que te ha pasado a ti? > j
James Colins
RE:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:58:01 +0200
de donde
eres? bye -j-
James Colins
RE:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:03:20 +0200
maybe I was wrong... my spanish is not good enough for writing, as it
seems... so allow me to jump back to english... I was wondering, why
you have sent this mail to the list!
Buenos Aires, you say.
And may I ask for your age as well? bye -j-
James Colins
RE:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:07:17 +0200
de austria. as it seems I'm the only austrian without any "foreign"
blood here in the list... but - that's actually not even true - my gradma
came from slovenia... so that's typical austrian. I guess 90% here are
a mixture of at least 2 to 3 cultures... bye -j-
James Colins
I was wondering
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:36:26 +0200
about the age of Julietta the swarm team list does not show!? tnx bye
-j-
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: I was wondering
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:54:06 +0000
whats the matter about my age???
James Colins
RE: I was wondering
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:55:55 +0200
just wondering bye -j-
James Colins
RE: I was wondering
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:40:57 +0200
I received this mail just a second ago: ----------------------------------------
Dear James,
Fist of all, I must confess my deep sorryness about our stupid and unbeleivable
french electoral situation. Il keep remenbering our discussion with
you and Gerfried when the situation in Austria became bad. It seems
that we experience the same with a number of other countries in Europe
: a popular extreme right vote to protest again the way these people
react to democracy and to some extend to european community. We shall
have a very tense period for the two months to come... You will find,
herewith attached, a letter [...] --------------------------------------------
from an artist, friend in france. think that's my last posting to the
list for now, since I'm not actually part of the teams... bye -j-
Julieta
Leveratto
RE: I was wondering
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:04:47 +0000
of course you can join the discussion, it doesnt matter that you are
not in the list. I just wanted to know who were you, to keep things
clear (we already had a lot of confusion). thanks for fowarding your
friends mail.
we would really like to hear your own analysis.
JMN
xxx@yahoo.de
4men
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 02:45:47 +0200 (CEST)
also ,ich mag es wenn die frau der chef ist. wie alt bist du?
xxx@gmx.de
Nackfotos
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 03:16:23 +0200 (MEST)
Hey ich sammle geile bilder meine vorliebe!!!! Muschis!!!!!
xxx@aol.com
Fri, 26
Apr 2002 04:57:57 EDT
hi
Ich hätte
gerne Nacktfotos von dir und auch welche in Stings oder so wenn es geht
gruß
xxx@hotmail.com>
Heiss
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:07:48 +0200
Hi Süße, möchtest Du mich mal richtig scharf machen,
von mir dann unendlich verwöhnt werden? Eine Frau die weiß
was Sie will und Ihre Lust richtig auslebt, das ist meine Vorliebe,
Sex von sanft bis Leidenschaftlich, normal bis abenteuerlich, alle Varianten,
sich richtig gut spüren.
Also, Interesse?
Dannschreib mir was heisses, Foto wäre Geil.
Guß
Steven Campbell
my webpage
Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:34:12 +0200
To whom it may concern
I just recently I have been informed - and even could take already a
look at it - about the e-mail with the disgusting content.For now, just
let me make a brief but precise comment on this e-mail: Neither the
contributing faculty members and students from University of Arts in
Linz,the staff from the Ars Electronica Center/ Future Lab nor me do
agree with any mentioned or shown content of your e-mail or web-page.I
have to stress that for me - as one of the initiating persons of this
interdisciplinary projects - it is absolutely depressing how a project
that was thought to bring cultural and geographically distanced people
together is finally misused in such a way. I insults all the participants.
Just one last thing: my name is Campbell, that is to say I am half Palestine
half Austrian. In other words, I am immigrant.
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: embrace the swarm
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:58:12 +0000
To whom it may concern, to Julieta, due to other responsibilities I
am committed to I was not able to keep up with all the happenings of
today in detail - however, the early morning screenshot of the homepage
of “ES etc.” I received as well as the page in its
current form forces me to make some comments ? even after such a busy
day. Dear Julieta, after I have talked to Michael this afternoon between
two really strenuous appointments I realised that there is a
certain criticism on the project - a criticism directed towards the
project outline I have written in particular. Michael made this unmistakable
clear. Now, there are several things I would like to say in this respect:
First, I do believe that the way and form you placed your criticism
was neither necessary nor proper. As you know, it is a very sensitive
issue,>particularly here in Austria.
*******-because
it is a sensitive issue,does this mean we should ignore it? dont you
think that if we are talking about "branding" a society, we
MUST talk about it? Julieta - Martine - Nadia
As you can
imagine, all those who have >read your message have been insulted
incredibly.
******-We
never said that the Austrian students were right wing. The page was
intended to be a reflection of a society (could be Austrian or UK)JMN
And as a matter of >fact, I cannot imagine such an offence as a starting
point for any >communication. Rather the opposite happens - which
then is more then >once mistakenly considered as a sort of silent
commitment.
****-DO YOU REALLY THINK WE STOPPED THE COMMUNICATION? we think we just
began it.JMN
Second,
I would like to comment my text as it seems to be the nucleus of all
your actions: At the time the project has been initiated I/we thought
of a virtual design studio for artists and architects; that is to say
I/we thought of a platform which allows the placement and exchange of
all kind of works done in various media (models, plans, drawings, etc.
- of course in digital format). Now, due to my architectural background
- where the competition is the rule (love or hate it) -
I also thought of a system that may allow all participants to evaluate
the contributions by themselves and not by a certain Master. So, in
other words, I tried to conceive of a work area that not just questions
traditional educational systems in the sense of the Beaux-Art-system
but which should prove if the quality of the result of a cooperation
can compete with or even surpass the quality of results by an individual
author. Of course one might raise the question about what is the best
idea or the best design? There are no answers to such a question as
all judgements are related to subjective views (see Kant); and this
was precisely the reason why I thought of a method where participants
should judge the others contributions rather then one (guiding) person.
If this idea about the platform has been communicated wrong or even
if its conceptions appears to be wrong so why was it necessary to act
in such an aggressive way? Why didnt you come up earlier with your thoughts
and addressed them directly to us at the beginning of the project?
*****-we
are not critizizing the platform. we are using it very succesfully.
And we have to congratulate you (and we are not being ironic here. we
think that this project is working in the same way that the Internet
works)JMN I would like to stress, that by no means I ever had racist
or what so ever intentions by conceiving this project.
******-You, racist? nobody here thinks that anybody is racist (in the
UK or Austrian team).JMN
Third. The
preparation of this project took us - the staff from the Ars Electronica
Center (AEC ) and I - almost one year. It caused us a lot of (unpaid)
time, ambition and patience to convince manykey decision makers to allow
and finance such a project. To name just a few examples, the Dean of
the University of Arts hired just for this project staff from the AEC,
the CEO of the AEC thought of an integration of the project at the forthcoming
Ars Electronica Festival, etc. In the meanwhile, I even could convince
a leading Austrian lightning company to exhibit the project in the Lichtforum
Vienna as well as that they may finance the project. I was asking the
Ravensbourne College to write a letter of reference to proceed with
the negotiation with the British Council in order to acquire money to
realise the results in reality. And lastly, even due to the fact that
I have missed the deadline I was still allowed to submit our project
(which has been considered absolutely interesting) to the Medida-prix
2002 in the name of the all participating institutions - so also in
the name of the one you are representing. This price is donated withapprox.
Euro 100,000. So, to come to my point, we were really looking forward
for a productive cooperation - now it has become pretty fast destructive.
And not just because of the way of criticism but also because all the
institutions I have named above are connected to the web-page or mailing
list. Again, I have nothing against criticism. To conclude, and to be
honest, I have no idea how to continue this project. It is not just
the case that this project - which thought to bring people with various
cultural and educational backgrounds together - took them finally apart,
it is
also the fact, that it becomes increasingly difficult (at least for
me) to have trust in people who after we friendly and open minded welcomed
them for a cooperation treat us in such a way.
*******-What did you expect from this project...to talk about english
tea?JMN
Steve Campbell, half Austrian half Palestine; immigrant
Mark
Thu, 25
Apr 2002 14:29:16 +0200
hi, what do think you are doing here.
its not funny nor a bright idea.
the theme it much to serious to make fun of it
and to make a connection to us.
if you mean it realy serious, we will take
legal measures against you.
Mark and Adam
xxx@freenet.de
geile Fotos
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:12:11 +0200
Hi Bitte schicke mir einige deiner geilen Fotos. Würde gerne deine
Brüste und deine Muschi sehen. Bin schon richtig geil darauf.
John Smith
my webpage
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:18:14 +0200
hi,
in order to prevent misunderstandings - michael asked me to clarify
that his recent mail that came in a few minutes ago was already sent
yesterday (as you can see on the time-stamp) for some reason the mailserver
popped it out just now -
regards,
John
Julieta
Leveratto
Feedback again
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:25:31 +0000
I am sorry for any misunderstanding. My intention to do this project
was not from any right wing political perspective. It is a contextualization
of design and text and Internet regarding this topic within the project.
Julieta Leveratto
Laura Grey
AW: Feedback again
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:34:28 +0200
I'm happy that you answered at last.
But again your excuse is what you accuse the Austrians of: giving a
very late and very poor argumentation for what you did.And as I said
yesterday, you have definitely chosen the wrong way to express your
"contextualization", at least you were dangerously thoghtless.
You disregarded the rights of individuals which are even more important
than the freedom of art.
Laura Grey
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: AW: Feedback again
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:40:49 +0000
again:
-The individual
contribution to the project is constantly challenged and redeveloped
by a collective
-The courses forces each student to take one of their colleagues work
as the basis of their own design
JMN
Julieta
Leveratto
WE ARE BACK
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:32:09 +0000
to everybody:
1- dont
worry, the page is down. Is the problem over or still there? (beisde
this, we didnt submit the site to any search engine). we did it because
we knew that nobody else but us (the uk-austrian team) could see it.
2- "this is not an apropriate offer for discussion as you call
it!" (John Smith) We are researching about immigration in UK as
an important subject within this culture (remeber Leeds, Bradford?).
We are doing this in cooperation with austrian students. Several demostrations
are being held in France (and immigration is linked with this). Is this
project about flowers or about what is really happening in a society
(that is innevitably linked with what is happening in other ones, lets
call it globalization)?
Now Mcluhan
comes to our mind. He says that artists are the only people in a society,
able to see and express what is really happening.
Now, we
ask you:
-Isnt this page some kind of reflection of the society we are living
in?
-Arent we living with non-tolerant people?
-where are the people that brought the FPO to the second party?
-If right wing are so important, why is this some kind of insult?
-why is being right wing an insult if they are wining elections?
-do we say one thing in public and vote for another thing in the darkness?
why don't right wing people make a demostration when left wing partys
go to
the power?
-is the left wing being totalitarian with the right wing?
Julieta
Leveratto
Martine Hermsen
Nadia Khan
(complete project team)
Laura Grey
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:52:04 +0200
-where are the people that brought the FPO to the second party?
it is clear that you don't seem to understand the slightest! you are
blaming the people you are freely working with by calling them nazis
- and you did so by putting our names on your stupid site! You violated
the rights of individuals. there is no art-link in what you did. it
is just stupid and thoughtless and harmful propaganda! -If right wing
are so important, why is this some kind of insult?
/ -why
is being right wing an insult if they are wining elections?/ -do we
say one thing in public and vote for
another thing in the darkness?
you think, you really think that our group voted or sypathizes with
the fpö? you always say, that all the austrians are the same, how
can you? you are doing a project about differences but at the same moment
you are negating your primary
intention for your partcipants!As I see, there is really no point in
continuing this discussion. you seem to have no interest in reacting
on what people write to you in answer to your insults, you are only
surpressing and forcing. that is no project.
I wrote to Julietta yesterday, telling her that i would come to england
on the weekend of the 11th/ 12th of May in order to talk to her personally.
I still want to do that, but I don't want to join this project any longer.
You don't have any respect for the people you are working with, the
way you show that is more than disgusting.
i can't understand why karel dudesek and michael breitenbrück still
stand behind those facist methods
of their students.
Laura Grey
Julieta
Leveratto
Re:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:29:53 +0000
We never talked about Nazism. We are asking questions about what is
happening in our society now within right wing parties and not just
in Austria. And please tell us where we said, that you are all right
wing, because that is not true.
We raised a subject. The page tried to show, somehow, the society we
are living in. We LIVE and we are being GOVERNED by these people.
WHY?
JMN
Laura Grey
CC: Lewis Lawyer
AW:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:06:07 +0200
I think you should that you can create contexts arranging information
in different ways. you know that even by not mentioning the word nazi
everybody who saw your page and read your mails got a certain impression
of what your intention is.In every thing you did you used methods that
are az least questionable.If you were really interested in doing a project
togehter, you would show some respect for your team members just as
we do for you.Was it your intention to make me cry because I cannot
understand your hatred towards your colleges who you only know by name?
With every mail you wrote you implied, that all of us sympathize with
the fpö, that none of us demonstrated against them in February
of 2000.
Your impression about us is that "the project is about flowers".
You only
speak about things in general, you never mention anything particular
- again known as facist methods.until today you didn't even darer to
write the mails with your full name. Everything remains cryptic.You
write an "ironic" text about nazis (not mentioning this special
word of course, but creating an icon out of the project's name that
clearly came out from rearranging the hakenkreuz), next to your text
you put an illustration that not only is in the way of illustration
the nazis used, on the ty shown in the picture you can also clearly
see that there is a hakenkreuz. then, underneath the text that can hardly
be read ironically you put names of people. you don't comment tehm,
you create a context that exemplifies the mentioned individuals as nazis.
you don't nedd to use this expression to explicitely say that.then,
all the imputations in your mails: don't tell me that these were only
ment as simple questions, read them again, those are your own words!-Isnt
this page some kind of reflection of the society we are living in? -Arent
we living with non-tolerant people? -where are the people that brought
the FPO to the second party? -If right wing are so important, why is
this some kind of insult? -why is being right wing an insult if they
are wining elections? -do we say one thing in public and vote for another
thing in the darkness? why don'tright wing people make a demostration
when left wing partys go to the power? -is the left wing being
totalitarian with the right wing?the way you are formulating your "questions"
is anticipating, that we are of the opposite opinion. you think that
without asking us, and what is really a sign of your poor behaviour,you
don't even read our answers and respond to them, you go on from the
point you stopped your predecessing mail.
you treat us as a uniform group, your project is about differences,
what makes us uniform? do you have any reason for that? i guess no,
so there are two possibilities: you didn't mean your own project seriously,
second: you don't take the whole project seriously and with that your
team members.In fact, your thoughts are very uninteresting. It starts
to bore me to answer to somebody who is not capable of argumenting reasonably,
whose view of the world is so undifferentiated. Your thoughts seem to
be very simple and poor, not artistic, not intellectual and not scientific,
as you might think. Andthe way you are dealing with us makes me believe
strongly, that you are dealing the same way with your project: undifferentiated
and just in a very simple, a too simple way.You know, I'm really not
interested in another McLuhan quotation, not in this case, I was interested
in what you think. You were not. That is a fact if you watch your mails.
Your talk is the talk you can hear at any regular's table. But the problem
you pretendet to talk about/ to work on isjust a little too serious
to be handled in such a simple way, don't you agree?
I'm disappointed that karel Dudesek and Michael Breidenbrücker
(I appologise for writing your name completely wrong before!)don't want
to comment what they think about the way their students treat the problem.
Laura Grey
Tim Thames
Re: AW: Feedback again
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:07:04 +0200 (MEST)
you can
do whatever you want with MY WORK but not with ME (e.g. post my name
on a right wing site )!!!
what a stupidity..
Paul Thomson
AW:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:42:24 +0200
hello embrace list, anonymous mailings with brainless content, how stupid
- xxx (sic!) but now to the topic, of course this is not a project about
english tea and flowers ( - there are lot of different approaches at
the page).. maybe it is interesting for you: one artist, christoph schlingensief,
has made a project a few months ago in vienna, according to the topics:
- immigration, xenophobia in austria. more information about this art-event
and the movie about it here: http://www.bonusfilm.at/projekte/schlingensief/schlingensief2.htm
paul
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: AW
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:12:13 +0000
THANKYOU!!!!!!
you got the point!
we know that in Austria these kind of discussions are very difficult.
we think that this kind of subject is still among us (which you have
proved with your reactions). but we think that we HAVE to talk about
it. This IS our society (because this is not just about Austria). Thats
what we wanted to show (even if you dont agree in the way we did it)
Thanks again, Paul!
did you
check out this link?
www.naziline.com
it is a critic about the same subject. We think that maybe in Austria
this kind of things are more ovbious (because of history), but really
dificults situation are happening in UK aswell.
julieta
- martine - nadia
Julieta
Leveratto
OPENING UP
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:41:14 +0000
We think that now its our turn to open up. Actually, we are just following
Lauras example (although her idea of having her lawyer between us wasnt
that good....) She told her history, and here is ours.
But first
of all (and we hope that for the last time), we want to say again that
with the page we wanted to reflect the society we are living in. Right
wing parties are in power and this is because WE (please, understand
the generalization we are making here. we are not saying YOU, we are
saying OUR society) put them there. Why shouldnt we talk about this?
We are researching immigration in UK. We found a lot of people feeling
discriminated. Now, we needed the counterpart in Austria. We made our
interpretation of Austrian society (could be France, UK, whatever) and
we wanted to start a
discussion with you about it.
***Julieta:
I am from Argentina and I am a journalist. My grand parents went to
Argentina because of severals motives, from economic to running away
from Russian Progroms. Maybe you know that mine is an immigrant country,
where everybody feels like they belong to a different part of the planet
rather than Argentina (although they were born there). As a South American,
I always felt the consequences of living in a colonized country, where
you always have to respond to what the bigger ones say. I guess you
know about the last facts in Argentina (economic crash) that made alot
of Argentinians want to go to live in another country. And this is when
they have to face alot of problems. I am here doing research about immigration.
I found alot of immigrants from countries like mine feeling rejected
by the country (maybe the same country that makes lot of demands to
theirs) they choose to live. And I feel that something is wrong here.
***Nadia:
If we approached the students in Linz with a question about immigration
directly, the response would have been in the direction of statistics
etc. Our objective was to get to the root of peoples attitudes towards
immigration. The site did produce the response we were after but only
because we posed our questions within this context. We are now beginning
to receive feedback in the direction of immigration. I feel that these
comments are honest opinions and exactly the response we were after.
Our proposal
involved bringing the two locations closer together by using graffiti
as a method of communication. (Check it out in the pool). The idea was
to initiate discussion through a statement, question or image within
the space of this wall. The intention, to receive a response in relation
to that statement, however, discussion could go in any direction and
the results become highly unpredictable.
I feel that
I should say something about myself at this stage. I have supported
Julietas actions and was involved from the beginning. I am a British
Asian and my parents are Pakistani (immigrants) I live with two cultures
simultaneously aswell as being a British Muslim. I must deal with the
two as separate identities, despite this, the gap between culture and
my
faith are blurred, just as the gap between western and eastern influences
are also blurred.
Basically
my life is composed of two worlds that continuously overlap whilst forming
some kind of balance. I feel that when I am immersed in one culture
the other becomes less important. This is constantly changing and as
you can imagine becomes very confusing. On the other hand I feel privileged
to have such a strong perspective of both worlds.
My attitude
towards my faith has changed over the past year, as I discovered how
important it is to make people aware that I am a Muslim. This is something
I did not expect to have to deal with in everyday life. In doing so
I have realised that it is important to me and comes before everything
else, in my life.
The cultures
that exist in my life are my Pakistani heritage and British influences.
I was born in Wales so technically I’m Welsh but have no ties
with Wales since I have spent most of my life in London. I do however
identify with Pakistan as a country equally to the UK.
I began
researching with Julieta into immigration in the UK, questioning why
people choose to come here. I am interested in this because I often
wonder why my parents chose to stay in this country despite the fact
that they miss Pakistan all the time. As we began to meet people from
different nationalities we discovered that each person had a story to
tell. We became interested in the diversity of people that lived in
London. Our project began to focus on this. The team (julieta, martine,
nadia) are now collaborating on a project about immigration. The response
we are now receiving from Paul Thompson and James Collins is much more
constructive and the discussion appears to be going in the direction
we had hoped. I appreciate Lauras response and hope she will see things
from our perspective.
Whos telling his/her story next? If you dont have any, just join the
conversation.
Julieta
- Nadia - Martine
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: embrace the swarm
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:23:59 +0000
hi Steven, as we told everybody, we would really appreciate it if you
could share your story and honest point of of view about immigration.
I hope you dont just send us mails to complain but to participate aswell.
Julieta
- Martine - Nadia
Nora Morris
?!?
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 17:40:09 +0000
hello everyone,
i would
like to respond to some of the points of the discussion today. first
of all: i think its pretty cheesy of you, julieta - Nadia - Martine,
to say that without this cheap webpage you would not have get the discussion/responses
you were after.
you never tried. and it seems to me now, you are telling this to excuse
yourself...
you also
said
"we want to say again
that with the page we wanted to reflect the society we are living in."
- BUT you just put the austrian names on the page, and besides this,
this way of working does not reflect anything. its just a copie of already
existing pages of idiots.
so, if you
want to reflect a society in general, you cannot work with just ten
names. and you cannot work with only one of the political wings... a
reason why i really doubt your abillity for critical art work.
and maybe
you dont realize that it still is (even with the fpö as second
party) a very serious and sensitiv topic! i dont know if you have ever
been in austria or germany (thats where i am from, huhuhu) but there
are demonstrations of right winged people. its not just an act in the
darkness. and this is not the only political action!
well, since
we know your political opinions and motives for this page, it just didnt
work out. so, one little hint for your further projects: be more critical,
even/or especially to yourself.
Nora
Katy Ross
Again
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:00:44 +0000
I´m a bit astonished about the way you forced this discussion.
And the matter raises some questions for me: What is the goal now, what
do you expect now from each of us? Should we start to understand everything
and as well excuse that way, now that you outed yourselves as immigrants
or resp. of foreign descent. What would have happened, if you weren´t
now at all, but if you were English descent. Would you anyway dared
to perform such a strange ! way of “discussion”, or were you
only able to do so from this position? And how much could that be a
point of that all.To me this whole thing seems a little like a test
for the Austrian team members, how we would react, and so I feel a little
strange as a usual equal member. This discussion is definitely entitled!
- although I think you chose a complete wrong way - but it also seems
to force the project in a very restricted dimension, not considering
wether somebody might be interested in a complete different idea, what
the project and “Branding the UK” is all about.
Katy Ross
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: Again
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:19:10 +0000
you have the right not to believe us. but what we are telling you is
the truth... we did this to research our immigration project.
we are not
saying the whole project is about immigration, this is our contribution.
other members of the UK team have their own projects but they chose
another approach.
please read
what your collegue (Albert Klein) has said to the list:
first i
just wanted to ask how many people except of our group have our mailinglist.i
think that we all should have been told about. second thing i have to
say that it is true that i first have been really shocked about our
names on a nazi-site.now i think that your team has really hit a nerv
and for myself this is also a interesting point for further discussion.
i mean we as a group can decide what the project is going to be about.
i hope its not only fame and money.(hahahah..);
julieta-nadia-martine
Albert Klein
yO
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:12:15 +0200
first i just wanted to ask how many people except of our group have
our mailinglist.i think that we all should have been told about. second
thing i have to say that it is true that i first have been really shocked
about our names on a nazi-site.now i think that your team has really
hit a nervand for myself this is also a interesting point for further
discussion. i mean we as a group can decide what the project is going
to be about. i hope its not only fame and money.(hahahah..);
Julieta
Leveratto
Re: yO
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:39:15 +0000
Dont worry! we can share the money with you.
exactly,
WE can decide what the project is about. we proposed to go in depth
about immigration, and we would like to hear what you have to say about
it. On the other hand, would you like to propose another subject?
And we also
want to know how many people have this mailing list!
Laura Grey
AW: embrace the swarm
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:07:14 +0200
julietta you are really making an absurd thing out of the topic. when
i told you the story about my family yesterday, i only ment it to show
that you are not dealing with an undistinguishable mass of people, you
blamed individuals and hurt them in a way that can't be accepted.if
you knew just a little about austria then you would also know that the
only have-ever-been-austrians are people who because of geographical
reasons (mountains) have lived there for centuries. all others can tell
stories like and i, i suppose. right wing activism is not a problem
of a nation, as no such thing as a nation exists but on papers. as you
can see, it's a dramatical fact all over europe nowadays now again you
aretrying to abuse our reactions for your own purposes. you still have
not made clear why you chose to take the means you took. you asked me
what was wrong about your behaviour, i answered, but you didn't even
try to justify your methods.i'm not sure if you realised what happened:
we reacted on your behaviour and still we are only talking about that
- your behaviour. the way you try to rise discussion is inacceptable.
and as long as you go on like that, the discussion will be stuck in
mailings about your undemocratic actions.on the content side and on
the methodic approach you are handling your project on a very low level,
which is inadequat for the topic. and that doesn't mean that the topic
itself is tabu.did you ever think about the following?: if you didn't
type in our names, the reaction on your project would not have been
that big. not because of the topic, but because of the way you edited
it. It is, simply said, boring: you didn't bring in any new discussion
point. Which is sad. If your approach is that personal you could have
handled it better. after all, considering the journalistic background
you mentioned we could have expected more profound research than you
showed us.you still have not reacted on my proposal: i want to talk
to you personally and i would come to london, if you agree to meet me.
laura grey
Julieta Leveratto
Re: AW: embrace the swarm
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:31:29 +0000
you are wrong in one point: some of you already understood what this
is about:
******Albert
Klein:
first i just wanted to ask how many people except of our group have
our mailinglist.i think that we all should have been told about. second
thing i have to say that it is true that i first have been really shocked
about our names on a nazi-site.now i think that your team has really
hit a nerv and for myself this is also a interesting point for further
discussion. i mean we as a group can decide what the project is going
to be about. i hope its not only fame and money.(hahahah..);
*****Paul Thomson:
hello embrace list,
anonymous mailings with brainless content, how stupid - boba fett. (sic!)
but now to the topic, of course this is not a project about english
tea and flowers ( - there
are lot of different approaches at the page).. maybe it is interesting
for you:
one artist, christoph schlingensief, has made a project a few months
ago in vienna, according to the topics:
- immigration, xenophobia in austria. more information about this art-event
and the movie about it
here: http://www.bonusfilm.at/projekte/schlingensief/schlingensief2.htm
paul
*****James
Colins:
I received this mail just a second ago:
Dear Horst,
Fist of all, I must confess my deep sorryness about our stupid and unbeleivable
french electoral situation. Il keep remenbering our discussion with
you and Gerfried when the situation in Austria became bad. It seems
that we experience the same with a number of other countries in Europe
: a popular extreme right vote to protest again the way these people
react to democracy and to some extend to european community. We shall
have a very tense period for the two months to
come... You will find, herewith attached, a letter [...]
from an
artist, friend in france.
Laura: I
dont know if you know, but next week we're gonna hold a video conference.
We are really looking foward to it.
Besides that, it will be great to have you here
j
xxx@compuserve.de
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 20:56:05 +0200
hi, ich möchte auch fotos von dir ,mit didlo wäre nicht schlecht,
wenn du willst dann können wir die fotos tauschen,tschüß
xxx@aol.com
Re:
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:13:06 EDT
hi
Warum hast dumir die sms einfach zurückgeschrieben ohne Bilder?
gruß
hero
John Smith
WG: Majordomo results
Sat, 27 Apr 2002 08:44:31 +0200
some of you requested information about who is subscribed to this list
- actually, you can check it out yourself - just send an email to majordomo@listsrv.aec.at
with "who list3" in the body of the message.
list3 is
the internal name for embrace-l.
the names below are the only persons that get mail from the list (will
add michael and karel as well,just found out that they are not on the
list already) - they are the paticipants from london and linz, plus
the persons running and administrating the project in aec and artuniv.
linz.
34 subscribers
Karel Dudesek
please post to the list
Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:41:07 +0200
Misunderstanding entertainment You understand what you want to understand,
ore what fits in your setting. To open up and
consider other perspectives would mean you have to leave your standpoint
and observe that what you want to understand from a different angle.
Some basics for this project, if you are initiating a student project
you all have to consider that the primary group, where all is cycling
around, are students and not the teachers ore the managers. There should
be a slide difference from our European culture handling such issues
than in non democratic states, or other against freedom of speech acting
organizations. Rather freedom of speech is the problem, but not speaking
at all is the issue. A student driven project has to allow students
to take up all responsibility they can bare, as PPOD I am no there to
command them like military to stop or go for something. Its their choice
and responsibility. As well I will not in the background regulate issues
with the
“responsibles” for them. Since 3 days all kind of “executives”
are calling back and forward in endless talks how to stop or go in this
situation, what an irony, they think they can handle this instead of
their students. That one student engaged a lawyer just shows what I’m
talking about.
If we want a generation of courageous, outspoken people rather than
under hierarchical suppression and social threats living and acting
neurotic youngsters, we have to trust them to regulate issues among
them alone, referring to this specific case now.
I am open to any discussion regarding the actual situation, but if students
are left out and kept like handicapped in a psycho cave, for this you
will not find a partner in me.
With kind regard and hope this project will continue in a communicative
spirit and we organize a party together on the corner of Würstel
Hans and celebrate
Karel Dudesek *PPOD=ProfProofOnDemand
Laura Grey
response to mr dudesek
Sat, 27 Apr 2002 10:33:50 +0200
mr dudesek: "as PPOD I am not here to command them like military
to stop or go for something. Its their choice and responsibility."
As you are also just an ordinary part of the project, i was just wondering
what you think about what had happened. It was a "military"
(referring to Mr dudesek) action that started this talk and that violated
the project and the individuals named on the website. As this website
was not within the project, you did'nt have the slightest chance to
see, that it was meant "ironically". For me and everybody
who saw the page, the impression was that the anonymous page-person
and the named persons at the end of the text have contact with eachother,
and the context suggested and anticipated the kind of contact as being
some kind of right-wing activism
.
As you could see, if you read through all the mails, we didn't leave
the matter up to the project's "executives", as you call
them. We wrote long mails to Julietta , explaining our disgust for her
methods. it seems to me as if your point of view is very selective:
the way the project-members of linz handle the project is from the outset
not open minded, again we all are uniform, not individuals. Mr Dudesek
wrote: "That one student engaged a lawyer just shows what I'm talking
about."
So, beside
that I can and did speak for myself , the kind of "free speach"
she used by setting up her webpage is against all
values of democracy. When I told the lawyer, the situation was still
very uncertain, Julietta's first reactions were definitely not de-escalating
or explaining. Although she knew then, that we personally felt hurt
and shocked. Not on the level of being austrian or of any other nation,
but as individual persons.
It happened because I personally will never accept and, moreover, one
of the basic laws of any democracy doesn't accept
any kind of wiederbetätigung in a nazi sense. This law
cannot be compared to laws against parking in wrong places, it shows
the people's deepest want , that things as under the nazi-regime must
not ever happen again. Because wiederbetätigung starts
in the dark (using julietta's expression here), our primary duty as
democratics is to bring those people out of the dark. which is just
the opposite of thinking in a hierarchical way; so again, this is not
because of a lack of democratic understanding; our expression of democracy
in this special law has to be as effective as it can be; people are
asked to act and not remain still. wiederbetätigung hits
the very nerve of democracy itself. All the things above refer to the
first day of our discussion when the website was still online and our
names put next to the nazi-links on the page.
I am not accusing julietta nor anybody else from the british members
of embrace the swarm of nazi-activism.
Mr dudesek: "If we want a generation of courageous, outspoken people
rather than under hierarchical suppression and social threats living
and acting neurotic youngsters, we have to trust them to regulate issues
among them alone,
referring to this specific case now." This really is a disgrace!
The website with which this discussion started was not at all courageous
but cowardly (because anomymous) and defamatory (because of our names
mentioned), which makes it a social threat in Mr Dudesek's words . And
as you can see, we DO regulate things among ourselves now. You have
to see those two phases we went through during the last days: the day,
when there was only the website and an anonymous writer, and the following
two days when julietta spoke herself.
What is very sad is, that julietta never appologised for what she did
anonymously. she spoke about some kind of "misunderstanding",
which is a little too harmless phrase for her website. You say, we do
not open up and
consider other perspectives (Mr dudesek mentioned that), where in our
reactions did you see that? As individuals, we simply don't want to
be treated in such a humiliating way. Where did you consider our perspective?
a website is not private talk, it is public speech and in this specific
public speech individuals were accused and humiliated.
Laura Grey
Julieta Leveratto
Laura
27. April 2002 14:37
Laura, I read your response to Professor Karel Dudesek. you want another
apology from me for not revealing my name from
the beginning. The reason why we didn't use our names was because it
was part of the strategy. Of course that in order to start the discussion
we knew that we going to have to say who we were. Beside that, I have
wanted to send to you a personal mail since the beginning but we were
answering generals ones. I thought a lot about what you said and I think
(and I sure that Nadia and Martine as well , although they aren't today
with me) that we have to apologise because we hurt
your feelings. We went too far. We wanted to shock you and to start
a discussion. But here we are, still explaining why we did it. I was
thinking last night (on my own, I am not speaking for my colleagues)
that we got to a point where, you accept our sincere apology and we
keep going with the project, or me, personally, will take a step aside
from this project. Because for me this doesn't have any sense if you
still feel bad about it . I know that you still don't believe that this
discussion was really planed, but do you really think that our lecturers
(both Austrians) would back us if it was not part of a wider debate?
So I will wait for your response. I hope that at least you believe me
this time and accept my apology. We meant to attract
attention, not to hurt.
Julieta
Laura Grey
AW: Laura
Sat, 27 Apr 2002 17:45:03 +0200
yes i do of course. i'm glad this argue is over :) i really hope you
enjoy the rest of the project and that the outcome will be
something you are happy about. i wish you the best. laura
Julieta
Leveratto
Good
27. April 2002 21:25
Good, now that we can speak in a more calm way, I would like to keep
going with our conversation and ask you some thinks.
First, I would like to know why, if this discussion (as my professors
told me) were supposed to be held between students, you never said that
you are part of the ars organizer team and not a student. (you always
clamed me to be clear about my identity). Second, I saw that you were
writing about the freedom of art (http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/Franz.Martin.Wimmer/se0102konzwenhart.html)
Why, instead of and open discussion about the right and wrongs about
our project you were always trying to stop it by putting lawyers between
us? I can understand if someone makes me see that my project is wrong
in some point, because I am here to learn. But I don't really understand
why someone (someone that writes about the freedom of art) tries to
stop a project with lawyers. That really confuse me. I'll wait for your
answer. julieta
Laura Grey
AW: Good
Sat, 27 Apr 2002 21:51:35 +0200
i'm not part of the organisers, i study philosophy in vienna and just
happen to work at the aec. the freedom of art project is not part of
embrace the swarm, but the concept for a work, where i am still doing
a lot of research. my studies combine philosophy, visual art, architecture
and law. i also studied law, especially human rights, and as i wrote
in the morning, when i told a lawyer, it was when the thing with your
website was still very unclear. you know, for me this project got just
too personal, i don't feel i can go on with it any longer. it's definitely
not because of you, i'm glad that everything is fine between us now.
for some days i feel very messed up in my mind now (not sure if i found
a correct expression), so i stopped, but still i wish you a nice time
and nice work.
bye, laura
Adam Clark
statement of the linz team
Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:43:13 +0000
dear collegues in uk
the whole group is sitting together right at the moment and discussing
about the situation. we want to express, that we will continue working
on this project together with the whole team. we can understand, that
you (some of you) are interested in the political situation in europe,
but we don't want to focus on this issue anymore. we are also concerned
about the current political situation in europe but we are not willing
to discuss on this level anymore.
once again and for the very last time we want to state that it's absolutely
unexcuseable, that you posted our names on a
webpage with this disgusting content.
we do appreciate all the other posted projects and we are just about
to continue our work.
katy, monica, sandra, ana, arthur, adam, mark, albert, nora, ed, tim
and gary
Martine
Hermsen
my personal statement
28 Apr 2002 21:58:59 -0000
I haven’t really introduced myself yet. I am Dutch and came to
London last September to work and study. I have hardly any
personal experience with the topic of immigration. In fact, I have counted
all the immigrants that I have come across in school, work, among my
friends, etc, and I came till four. I guess that in the Netherlands
10-20% of the population are immigrants. This means that the lifes of
different groups in the Dutch society are very seperated, and that worries
me.
Our purpose for the website was to provoke a discussion. This way we
believed that we would shake up a situation, for which people might
usually shut their eyes for the subject. Although we expected irritation,
we did not expect that we might hurt people with our website. I am sorry
for that.
Some of replies we received said that we used undemocratic ways and
they mentioned the Wiederbetaetigung law. Correct
me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, that law forbids certain nazi
references. For me a law like that is questionable; ill-balanced with
the freedom of speech. The fact that this law is chosen by the establishment
at a certain moment in history, is for me no reason to stop assessing
it, or even disregarding it.In two weeks there will be elections in
the Netherlands. For the first time an extreme right wing party is very
successful in the polls (Lijst Pim Fortuyn).
At first the reactions of the politicians and media has been to ignore
or ridicule the party and its points of view. This has
clearly not helped at all. People who say they vote for Pim Fortuyn
say that they don’t feel involved in the political system as it
is, and taking their opinions not seriously will only alienate them
further.I don’t want to accuse any of you of having voted for the
FPO, but it is such a big thing that each of us must know people who
support the FPO, Lijst Pim Fortuyn, the British National Party or any
other equivalent. I don’t want to be part of a complacent high
educatedleft-wing island and avoid this, but instead I would wish that
my art work could raise issues and awareness. By choosing immigration
as our point of focus in the ars electronica project, Julieta, Nadia
and me were hoping to ask some questions to the audience and to you
about that topic.
Now I have just read your email saying that you don’t want to discuss
any political issues anymore. I respect your decision, art does not
have to be about politics. However, for me that is exactly what interested
me in this project. Avoiding political issues, would give me the feeling
that I would approve with the current situation. I was hoping that we
could make a statement in our projects. If you take the politics out
of the topic ‘ Branding UK’ what is left?
I am sorry my statement came a bit late. I do respect your decision,
and I don’t mean to keep pestering you with the same
arguments over and over, but I felt I needed to give my personal explanation.
Martine
Michael
Breidenbruecker
Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:53:04 +0000
Dear friends One of the most difficult things in a free and democratic
world connected through media is the power of
populism.
Consider this as my official statement to the happenings of the last
week and the following as my statement for the next week.
We managed to get quite some stuff online. It would be cool if everyone
could check out what is there and how to use the
stuff. Analyse, and categorise the contributions, filter it and bring
it down do a design proposal. Try to cross connect with people on either
side.
Good luck.
Jack Jackson
AW: <no subject
Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:36:16 +0200
>Dear friends >One of the most difficult things in a free and
democratic world connected >through media is the power of
populism.
But to garantee
the free and democratic society, the way work and living with each other
is and was allways central. The main point is RESPECT.
Respect the personal life and respect the person you are working with,
even if you do not agree. And this is the aspect on
which societies are/were judged! And this did not change troughout history,
even if we are connected through a media based network.
>Consider
this as my official statement to the happenings of the last week
Jack
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