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“Ye know that ye do transgress the laws of God, and ye do know that ye do trample them under your feet. Behold, the Lord saith unto me: If those whom ye have appointed your governors do not repent of their sins and iniquities, ye shall go up to battle against them.” (Moroni writing in his epistle to Pahoran, Alma 60:33)
The problem Br. Clif finds, quote: “’The Lord’ said the governors needed to repent when they hadn’t even done anything wrong. See Alma 61:4. Do we have a false prophet here, or a false god?” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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The answer to that question is “neither”. Pahoran himself hadn’t done anything wrong. However, nothing in the text says the lesser governors were innocent. An examination of the epistle, who the epistle was directed to, what was going on around Pahoran, and what Moroni did as a result provides evidence that at least some lesser governors had rebelled against Pahoran, and therefore were guilty.
Moroni was angry because Pahoran had not sent reinforcements. Meanwhile, Pahoran was having troubles of his own. He replied to Moroni, “(2) ...I do not joy in your great afflictions, yea, it grieves my soul. (3) Behold, there are those who do joy in your afflictions, yea, insomuch that they have risen up in rebellion against me, and also those of my people who are freemen, yea, and those who have risen up are exceedingly numerous. (4) And it is those who have sought to take away the judgement-seat from me that have been the cause of this great iniquity; for they have used great flattery, and they have led away the hearts of the people, which will be the cause of sore affliction among us; they have withheld our provisions, and have daunted our freemen, that they have not come unto you. (5) And behold, they have driven me out before them, and I have fled to the land of Gideon, with as many men as it were possible that I could get.” (Alma 61:3-5; Bold added by me.)
Note that Moroni’s epistle was directed to the lesser governors in addition to Pahoran. Note that Pahoran replied he does not delight in Moroni’s problems...but there are some who do. Since Moroni’s epistle was directed to the lesser governors, and Pahoran’s reply includes references to “they”, it’s possible some of “they” are lesser governors who haverebelled. (Example--If I direct a letter to “John” and his subordinates, and “John” sends a reply writing about “they”, chances are “they” are the subordinates my letter mentioned.)
Pahoran says “they” have risen up against him. They were numerous and powerful enough to force him to Gideon, plus they are witholding provisions and keeping reinforcements from getting to Moroni. There were enough powerful people pulling enough strings to cause Pahoran big problems. Perhaps not all of the governors were against him. Yet from the power struggle described in the letter, at least some of the governors were involved in the uprising. Verse 4 above --the verse Br. Clif uses to show the governors didn’t do anything wrong-- does not even mention governors! It mentions Pahoran’s position being threatened (“I”, “me”). It does mention “us” -- but “us” is the people of the land who are on Pahoran’s side. Read the verses for yourself, in context, following the events, and see.
There is another piece of evidence that points to “they” being the rebellious lesser governors. It’s in Alma 61:20 where Pahoran wrote to Moroni: “But ye have said, except they repent the Lord hath commanded you that ye should go up against them.” And who are “they”? From reading Pahoran’s epistle, it is clear “they” are the ones rebelling against Pahoran. Compare that statement by Pahoran to Alma 60:33 where Moroni previously wrote to Pahoran: “...the Lord saith unto me: If those whom ye have appointed your governors do not repent of their sins and iniquities, ye shall go up to battle against them.” (Emphasis added by me for easy comparison.) THEY are the rebellious governors. And Moroni does go to battle against them (Alma 61:15-18; 62:3-11).
There is no false prophet nor false god in Alma 60:33. The governors had rebelled against the chief judge Pahoran. The governors were in transgression. Moroni did go up to battle against them as the Lord said. Also see Solution 35, next...
“But ye have said, except they repent the Lord hath commanded you that ye should go up against them.” (Pahoran to Moroni, Alma 61:20)
The problem Br. Clif finds is, quote: “What the supposedly omniscient Mormon ‘Lord’ actually said in Alma 60:33 was, ‘Unless Pahoran, the governor, and his buddies repent, you shall go and slay them.’ This is quite different from what ‘Pahoran’ is considering doing. He is not planning on slaying himself and making war with his buddies is he?” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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First, let’s take a look at what Alma 60:33 does say. Moroni directed his epistle to Pahoran, the chief judge, and to the lesser governors chosen by the people. His epistle includes this statement: “Ye know that ye do transgress the laws of God, and ye do know that ye do trample them under your feet. Behold, the Lord saith unto me: If those who ye have appointed your governors do not repent of their sins and iniquities, ye shall go up to battle against them.” (Alma 60:33)
Second, I’d like to re-quote Alma 61:20 in context. Pahoran replies to Moroni, telling him “they” have risen against him and driven him out of Zarahemla to Gideon. As shown in Solution 34, “they” include the lesser governors. Pahoran writes to Moroni: “(15) Therefore, come unto me speedily with a few of your men....(17) Gather together whatsoever force ye can upon your march hither, and we will go speedily against those dissenters....(18) And we will take possession of the city of Zarahemla...and we will put an end to this great iniquity. (19) And now, Moroni, I do joy in receiving your epistle, for I was somewhat worried concerning what we should do, whether it should be just in us to go against our brethren. (20) But ye have said, except they repent the Lord hath commanded you that ye should go against them.” (Alma 61:15-20; Bold added by me.) Several verses later, Alma 62:7-8 states: “And it came to pass that Moroni and Pahoran went down with their armies into the land of Zarahemla, and went forth against the city.....And behold, Pachus was slain and his men were taken prisoners, and Pahoran was restored to his judgement seat.” Taking the whole thing in context shows Pahoran summoned Moroni to join forces with him, to end the iniquity mentioned in Alma 60:33 above, and to regain the judgement-seat.
Therefore, with Alma 61:20 in context-- Pahoran wasn’t sure if it was right for his army and him to go to battle against their brethren. Moroni’s words assured Pahoran that he, with Moroni, should battle against the dissenters. Pahoran asked Moroni to come help him battle against the dissenters, and restore him to the judgement-seat in Zarahemla. Moroni did so, and Pahoran was restored to his position. (Alma 61-63)
“(36) And it came to pass that he turned him about, and behold, he saw through the cloud of darkness the faces of Nephi and Lehi; and behold, they did shine exceedingly, even as the faces of angels. And he beheld that they did lift their eyes to heaven; and they were in the attitude as if talking to lifting their voices to some being whom they beheld. (37) And it came to pass that this man did cry unto the multitude, that they might turn and look. And, behold, there was power given unto them that they did turn and look; and they did behold the faces of Nephi and Lehi. (38) And they said unto the man: Behold, what do all these things mean, and who is it with whom these men do converse? (39) Now the man’s name was Aminadab. And Aminadab said unto them: They do converse with the angels of God.” (Helaman 5:36-39)
The problem Br. Clif finds is, quote: “Is this a hybrid of Stephen’s experience and Paul’s?” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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The answer is “no”. If it was a hybrid, then it would share many features in common with both Stephen’s experience and Paul’s experience. Let’s contrast and compare to see how much Aminadab’s experience does have in common with Stephen’s and Paul’s.
First, I’ll quote Stephen’s experience from Acts 7:55-56: “But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus, standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.”
Next, I’ll quote Paul’s experience from Acts 9:3-7: “And he [Saul/Paul] fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.”
In Helaman 5:36-39, the man who sees Lehi and Nephi is Aminadab. Aminadab, a dissenter from the Nephite church, was living with the Lamanites. The missionary brothers, Lehi and Nephi, had traveled into Lamanite land to preach. As usual, the Lamanites captured them and threw them in prison. Aminadab, and his Lamanite friends, were about to kill them. Then the event occurred when he saw Lehi and Nephi through the dark cloud (already quoted above). The account doesn’t say much about what Aminadab did after the event. Perhaps he, with his Lamanite friends, laid down his weapons and ministered to the Lamanites.
Below is a chart to compare and contrast the three experiences. First, Aminadab’s experience is compared with both Stephen’s and Paul’s. Aminadab’s experience is next compared individually with Stephen’s then Paul’s. If Aminadab’s experience is a hybrid, it will share several similarities with the other experiences and show a noticeable blend. The number of similarities Aminadab’s experience shares with the others is shown in the far right column.
With all the 0’s in the “# similar” column, I think the chart speaks for itself. Aminadab’s experience shares only one certain similarity with Stephen’s, and zero with Paul’s. Helaman 5:36-39 is not a hybrid of Stephen’s and Paul’s experiences.
“And in the sixty and fifth year they did also have great joy and peace, yea, much preaching and many prophecies concerning that which was to come. And thus passed away the sixty and fifth year.” (Helaman 6:14)
The problem Br. Clif finds is, quote: “Why is it that ‘Mormon’ did not include these ‘sacred’ things in his abridgement?” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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I think Br. Clif pretty well answered that one himself. The main reason those preachings and prophecies were not included in the abridgment is because...well...it was an ABRIDGMENT. (an abridgment = the short version) Not everything is put into an abridgment. Mormon, who did the abridgment, wrote: “But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars...and their preaching, and their prophecies....cannot be contained in this work.” (Helaman 3:14; see also Words of Mormon 1:5)
Let’s look at the Bible with the same scrutiny-- Acts 1:3: “To whom also he [Jesus] shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:” There was the resurrected Yeshua, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. Certainly that must have been some of the most sacred preaching he had given his disciples. Yet, the New Testament is amazingly silent about it. The disciples wrote about what Yeshua taught before the crucifixion. I would think the preaching of Yeshua afterwards (being raised from the dead, miracle of miracles....not to mention having ascended to Father, and also preaching in spirit prison...) about the Father’s kingdom would be even more sacred.
Furthermore, there’s entire books of scripture left out of the Bible, including books of prophecies and visions (see Solution 5). Is the Bible a fake because sacred information was left out of it? No. Prophecies and preachings left out of the Book of Mormon abridgment doesn’t make it a fake, either.
“And it was they who did murder the chief judge Cezoram, and his son, while in the judgement-seat; and behold, they were not found.” (Helaman 6:19)
The problem Br. Clif finds is, quote: “If they were not found, then how did ‘Mormon’ know? No ‘thus saith the Lord’ is found here!” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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To answer that requires a closer look at the “gang” who committed the crime, and the context of the chapter. And one doesn’t have to look too far to find it. I will highlight the number of the verse in question below:
“(15) And it came to pass that in the sixty and sixth year of the reign of the judges, behold, Cezoram was murdered by an unknown hand as he sat upon the judgement-seat. And it came to pass that in the same year, that his son, who had been appointed in his stead, was also murdered. And thus ended the sixty and sixth year. (16) And in the commencement of the sixty and seventh year the people began to grow exceedingly wicked again. (17) ....they began to set their hearts upon their riches.... therefore they began to commit secret murders, and to rob and to plunder, that they might get gain. (18) And now behold, those murderers and plunderers were a band who had been formed by Kishkumen and Gadianton. And now it had come to pass that there were many, even among the Nephites, of Gadianton’s band..... And they were called Gadianton’s robbers and murderers. (19) And it was they who did murder the chief judge Cezoram, and his son, while in the judgement-seat; and behold, they were not found. (20) And now it came to pass that when the Lamanites found that there were robbers among them they were exceedingly sorrowful; and they did use every means in their power to destroy them off the face of the earth. (21) But behold, Satan did stir up the hearts of the more part of the Nephites, insomuch that they did unite with those bands of robbers and did enter into their covenants and their oaths, that they would protect and preserve one another in whatsoever difficult circumstance they should be placed, that they should not suffer for their murders, and their plunderings, and their stealings. (22) And it came to pass that they did have their signs, yea, their secret signs, and their secret words; and this that they might distinguish a brother who had entered into the covenant...” (Helaman 6:15-22)
A major “gang” had formed and was causing trouble. By reading verse 18, then reading verse 19 in context with it, the first “they” in verse 19 refers to the Gadianton band. The “gang” was known, but the individual members were not found because (reading on to verse 21) the members covered for each other.
Sometimes a group of dissenters (such as terrorists or a gang) has a “trademark” they leave at the scenes of their crimes. In this way, the general public knows that such-and-such group was responsible for the act. The nature of gangs are, they love attention. They thrive on notoriety. Police often purposely leave a gang’s name out of the media just so they don’t get the attention they seek.
It was easy for Mormon to see the Gadianton “gang” was behind the murders as he abridged the records. The activities of the organization were well-documented. The individual members of the gang were hard to pinpoint. Nevertheless, if there’s one notorious bunch causing trouble, it’s no secret where the problems are coming from.Helaman 7:6-15: In Helaman 7, Nephi had recently returned from a mission. When he came home to Zarahemla, he found his people had become wicked and the Gadianton Robbers controlled the government. The overall picture looked grim. Thus, in verses 6-9, Nephi was filled with sorrow, lamenting and pouring out his soul to God... “(6) ...and when Nephi saw it, his heart was swollen with sorrow within his breast; and he did exclaim in the agony of his soul: [wishing he could have lived back when the people were righteous, then his soul would have joy in the righteousness of his brethren]...... “(9) But behold, I am consigned that these are my days, and that my soul shall be filled with sorrow because of this the wickedness of my brethren. (10) And behold, now it came to pass that it was upon a tower, which was in the garden of Nephi, which was by the highway which led to the chief market, which was in the city of Zarahemla; therefore, Nephi had bowed himself upon the tower which was in his garden, which tower was also near unto the garden gate by which led to the highway. (11) And it came to pass that there were certain men passing by and saw Nephi as he was pouring out his soul unto God upon the tower; and they ran and told the people what they had seen, and the people came together in multitudes that they might know the cause of so great a mourning for the wickedness of the people. (12) And now, when Nephi arose he beheld the multitudes of people who had gathered together. (13) And it came to pass that he opened his mouth and said unto them: Behold, why have ye gathered yourselves together? That I may tell you of your iniquities? (14) Yea, because I have got upon my tower that I might pour out my soul unto my God, because of the exceeding sorrow of my heart, which is because of your iniquities! (15) And because of my mourning and lamentation ye have gathered yourselves together, and do marvel...”
Alma 31:12-25-- This describes Zoramite worship and attitude and is a bit lengthy to quote entirely. Feel free to obtain a Book of Mormon to read it for yourself. In case you don’t have one handy, here’s a summary: The Zoramites gathered together one day a week to worship in their synagogue. They had built a tower “high above the head” in the center of their synagogue. The top of the tower had room for only one person. Whoever wanted to worship had to go stand upon the top of the tower, stretch their hands up to heaven, and shout (...which must have made quite a show for the spectators below...). They would shout a “prayer” which basically went like this: “Holy, holy God, we believe thou art holy and art a spirit. We do not believe in the traditions of our brethren. Thou hast elected us to be thy holy children. Thou hast told us there is no Christ. Thou hast elected us to be saved, while all others shall be cast to hell. We thank thee that we do not follow the foolish traditions of our brethren, which binds them down to a belief in Christ. We thank thee that we are chosen and holy. Amen.” Every man who wanted to worship would go stand upon the tower and shout the same prayer, in the same manner as the person before. After the people were finished with their repetitious “prayers” they went to their homes, never speaking about God until the next time they assembled around the tower. Their hearts were upon their riches more than upon God. They were a proud, boastful people who did not believe in the Messiah.
The problem Br. Clif finds is, quote: “Why did ‘Nephi’ need to pray on the top of a tower, where everyone could see him” Wasn’t this similar to the apostate form of worship committed by the ‘Zoramites’ in Alma 31:12-23?” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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There are fundamental differences between the Zoramite’s showy, boastful, public anti-Messiah form of worship.... and Nephi II bowing himself down in sorrow upon a tower in his own garden. It wasn’t so much where the Zoramites prayed that made them apostates, but it was more how they prayed that made them apostates.
The Zoramites were purposely gathered around a public tower, which was expressly built in their synagogue for standing and shouting repetitious anti-Messiah “prayers”. The anti-Messiah rhetoric and showy pride is what made the Zoramites apostate more than anything else. .....Nephi II, who believed in the Messiah, was bowed down in sorrow on his tower in his garden. Since the tower was his, and in his garden, the tower was for personal use. It may have been a place away from the hustle and bustle of home & family (he did have a family, 3 Nephi 1:2) , where he could be alone for a while (or as alone as possible, as he was a city-dweller living on a main highway). Looking at Helaman 7:11-- of all the people who must have been traveling that main highway, only certain men saw him, not everyone. Those certain men were the ones who caused the crowd. Looking at Helaman 7:12-13, Nephi didn’t even notice the crowd until after his prayer was done. Then he asked them: “Behold, why have ye gathered yourselves together?” -- showing he certainly hadn’t invited them.
It’s not so much where one prays, but more how one prays that counts. Compare the Zoramite worship with the Pharisees. Yeshua chided them for their showy, repetitious, purposely public prayers (Matt. 6:5-8). The Zoramites definitely fit that description. We can pray anywhere, any time, any place....except we should not be showy, repetitious and purposely public like those Pharisees (and Zoramites). Turning to the Bible, Hannah prayed publicly at the Sanctuary (1 Sam. 1:9-12), Daniel prayed in his chamber (Dan. 6:10), the apostle Peter prayed upon a housetop (Acts 10:9), Yeshua prayed in the mountains (Matt. 14:23; Luke 9:28). Nephi II didn’t have to pray on his garden tower. He chose to pray there, as it may have been a semi-private place away from the activity inside the house (possibly like Peter praying upon the housetop...).
The chart below compares the two accounts. Whether or not the worship was similar is shown in the far right column.
Nephi II’s prayer was not similar to the apostate Zoramite form of worship.
“(6) Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. Behold, I declare it unto thee in the presence of mine angels, that ye shall have power over this people, and shall smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness of this people. (7) Behold, I give unto you power that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven; and thus shall ye have power among this people.” (Helaman 10:6-7)
[Note how the above verses go hand-in-hand. The power in verse 6 could not be granted without the power in verse 7. They are connected, which is why I added verse 6 for future reference.]
The problem Br. Clif finds is, quote: “Here a power which was given to the apostles during Christ’s ministry is given to ‘Nephi’ before the Messiah is even born!” (Quote correct as of mid May 1998.)
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Some people are stuck on “Christianity” being something suddenly new --and the powers with “Christianity” being something suddenly new-- just because the Messiah was ministering in the flesh upon the earth at that time. The only thing “new” was the Messiah had finally been born upon the earth and would fulfill the Law. Baptism, known as t’villa, existed as part of Mosaic Law before the Messiah was born. Abraham saw the Messiah’s day and knew the gospel (John 8:56; Gal. 3:8). The symbolic offering of animals had existed since the times of Adam’s children (in Gen. 4:3-5, compare v. 4 to Num. 18:17 about the Mosaic Law...which was fulfilled by Yeshua). The message of repentance and salvation through following the Messiah is a constant thread running through both the Old and New Testaments.
Furthermore, the power and authority of Father is constant throughout the Old and New Testaments. Father’s power is constant, not wavering from one era to the next. The priesthood of Melchizedek was known and practiced in both the Old and New Testaments (Gen. 14:18-20; Ps. 110:4; Heb. 6:20). Furthermore, the Messiah was with Father before the foundation of the world (John 1:1; 17:5). He created the world (John 1:3; Eph. 3:9). If the Messiah existed before the foundation of the world, then the plan of salvation existed before the foundation of the world (Titus 1:2; 1 Pet. 1:19-20). Therefore, the corresponding gospel of salvation and repentance existed --and the powers that went with it existed-- before the foundation of the world. They existed in the beginning, they existed in ancient times, they exist today, and will exist in the future.
An excellent example is the prophet Elijah. Elijah sealed up the heavens for three years so there was no rain: “...there shall not be dew nor rain these years, but according to my word.” (1 Kings 17:1, also 18:41-46). By reading 1 Kings 16-18, it is evident the drought was called because of the wickedness of the people, and did not end until the wickedness had been destroyed. Therefore, Elijah had power from Elohim to create a 3-year drought (with famine--1 Kings 18:2) according to the wickedness of the people. But that was not all. Elijah also used the power to perform miracles. He kept food in the house of a widow, that her barrel of meal and cruse of oil did not run dry for the entire time of the drought (1 Kings 17:12-16). He brought the dead back to life, in the case of the widow’s son (1 Kings 17:17-23). He called down fire from heaven that totally consumed a sacrifice drenched in water (1 Kings 18:33-38). He also called down fire from heaven to consume soldiers (2 Kings 1:8-12). He parted the river Jordan, so that he and Elisha could walk through on dry ground (2 Kings 2:7-8). The power of Elohim was with Elijah. Elijah obeyed YHWH, and whatsoever Elijah asked from heaven, it was granted him. Elijah thus had power among the people.
Compare that with Helaman 10:6-7 and Matt. 16:19, already quoted in paragraphs above. By looking at the power Father gave to Elijah and how Elijah used it, it is evident that Elijah had power over the people, to “smite the earth with famine, and with pestilence, and destruction, according to the wickedness” of the people. Whatever Elijah sealed on earth was sealed in heaven. Whatever Elijah loosed on earth was loosed in heaven. The power of Elohim was with Elijah. Elijah obeyed YHWH, and whatsoever Elijah asked from heaven, it was done. Elijah could, and did, call upon the powers of heaven when he saw the need to do so --and it was done. Elijah thus had power among the people. And it was BEFORE the birth of the Messiah. [The account in 1&2 Kings does not say verbatim that Elijah was given power to seal and loose. However, with all the things that are missing from the Bible (Solution 5), it’s no surprise the verbatim statement isn’t there. It is evident to me from studying the account in 1 & 2 Kings that Elijah did have that power.]
Father’s power is constant. It was constant in both the Old and New Testaments and is constant today. It was and is constant throughout the entire world, the entire universe, for all people through all time both past, present and future. If Almighty Father decided to bestow His power upon select people, even before the Messiah was born, it’s not my place to argue against it. Nor is it anyone else’s.
