Part Two:
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 00:58:29 -0400
Well the usual unlegal attempt has been made by
I have been asked to cancel my post, which I have agreed to do
My reply to the request of Mr. J Robertson of COGECO to cancel
Anyone who has had an ISP or *is* an ISP who has demanded
Gregg
>X-Sender: techno@mail.cgo.wave.ca
> Gregg,
>It looks as though Scientology is starting on you :) Can you please cancel
>-Dan
>-----Original Message-----
>Dear Messrs. Fox and Cole:
> I represent Religious Technology Center ("RTC"), the owner of the
confidential
> A posting to alt.religion.scientology, and nl.scientology was made
through Cablenet by
> elrond-0906971705360001@cgowave-7-50.cgocable.net
> These works have been posted to these newsgroups without the
authorization of my
> These postings violate United States and Canadian copyright law.
Because this document
> We are currently involved in litigation over the same and similar
materials in several
> In one of the San Jose cases, in which Netcom was a defendant, the
court ruled that an
> We are not seeking to become involved in litigation, but we will take
all necessary
> Please confirm that this posting has been removed. I wanted to e-mail
you directly
> Sincerely,
> Helena K. Kobrin
Dear Mr.Robertson,
Let me assure you as I posted to Phil Cole:
"You will be pleased to know that I have not, nor ever shall,
I would like to add a few additional comments.
This will take a few moments of your time, but the issues at hand as
Ms. Kobrin, *if* indeed this is Ms. Kobrin has included in her
Second is the claim of valid copyright. This was apparently overturned by
I would point out, additionally, that this email is *not* proper and legal
If you would check with your own legal advisors you will find that
Additionally, any request to myself to remove such a posting, by anyone,
I, and numerous others before me all over the world, have received
Many of these notices have been deliberate forgeries.
Check around.
Ms. Kobrin does not seem to respond to requests for proper
However she does indulge in questionable actions such as previously
See
http://www2.thecia.net/users/rnewman/scientology/usenet/rmgroup.html
Should she provide me or COGECO with the Documentation I have
However, that is not the case here.
There is no valid reason under law for me or COGECO to withdraw
Nor, I might add, is there any legal reason for COGECO to request
This notice IMHEO is either a hoax, or certainly unlegal and flawed.
Check with your legal advisors.
Specifically at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeta/SCN/ss51_not.html#7 [Not available.]
You will see there a copyright notice appended to the bottom of the
particular
document:
Snr C/S Int Assistant
Accepted by the
BOARD OF DIRECTORS
of the
CHURCH OF
SCIENTOLOGY
OF CALIFORNIA
LRH:dm:kjm
Copyright (c) 1978
by L. Ron Hubbard
ALL RIGHTS RESERVED
You will notice that the organisation known as RTC does not appear
CSC does.
You may also note that RTC tried *unsuccessfully* in court to have
You will also notice that this document appears to be the source of
Sir, IMHEO you are being defrauded, mislead and manipulated into
I will, of course cancel my posting, should it still be upon your server,
I would further point out that as you are well aware, the Church of
[See Cancel Faq-in part-
"3. g. Unauthorized copyrighted material.
I will also point out that you yourself have the ability to cancel my post,
[See Cancel faq -in part-
"2. Second person cancels are performed by those people officially in
and to terminate my service if you should so desire, in violation of the
However, for what legally recognised cause or necessity?
It may be enlightening to you to visit my Website at:
http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond
There you will gain an insight into why Ms. Kobrin or an agent
You will see at
http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond/1-1GlbM.html
The Ontario Court of Appeals when it upheld the criminal conviction
This 'message' is simply another act of intimidation in a world wide
Andreas Heldal-Lund of Operation Clambake:
http://home.sol.no/~spirous/CoS/
- and his ISP have been *requesting* proper legal notice,
Until such time, I would expect that COGECO will conduct itself
I would respectfully request that you consult with your legal advisors,
This may seem like a tremendous headache over a simple post,
This is just a probe of you and COGECO.
What moral fibre COGECO is made of will become an issue as well.
They will next attack my website on your server which contains
nothing legally or morally challengable.
It is my WWW voice and is the true object of this harrassment.
But that is not the point.
Determining how easily you and COGECO can be intimidated
Sincerely,
William G. Hagglund
See attached below:
> As I predicted Phil, the CoS has begun its intimidation act.
> I expect you will pay me the same courtesy.
> The post Ms. Kobrin is referring to below contained less that 5%
> A Judge named Kolt ruled some time ago that a company called
>And what a circus that has become!
> Anyway, I doubt this "Nots 7" stuff is really theirs as I have seen it
> However, RTC is in court right now being unexpectedly required to
> I am assuming that RTC does claim the copyright to *some* document
> You will be pleased to know that I have not, nor ever shall, originate a
>I find it hard to believe any real Lawyer would possibly think that
>However, being a practicing Scientologist, the infamous Ms. Kobrin
From: elrond@cgo.wave.ca (Gregg Hagglund)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
Subject: RTC/CO$ PRESSURES My ISP was RE: Unauthorized Use of Copyrighted Materials
Organization: ESI Council
NNTP-Posting-Host: cgowave-7-50.cgocable.net
Lines: 636
Ms. Kobrin, or an agent of the Co$ utilizing her account
to test the mettle of my ISP: COGECO.
*provided* proper legal and applicable notice is given.
And a non PGP e-mail is not proper legal notice.
my posting as relayed to me by Mr. D Johnson is appended below.
Sorry it is so long.
Please feel free to snip all unnecessary parts of this
epic if you chose to comment.
more from Ms. Kobrin et al than an unauthenticated email rant
before canceling posts or a website might give me a hand.
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:39:18 -0400
>To: elrond@cgocable.net
>
>Subject: FW: Unauthorized Use of Copyrighted Materials -Forwarded
>the post and perhaps e-mail Jeff Robertson at
>jrobertson@internet.cgocable.net as he has requested you remove the posting.
>Maybe a good idea to let him know your situation in regards to this.
>From: Helena Kobrin [SMTP:hkk@netcom.com]
>Sent: June 10, 1997 6:49 PM
>To: admin@CGOCABLE.net
>Cc: pcole@CGOCABLE.net
>Subject: Unauthorized Use of Copyrighted Materials
>Advanced Technology of the Scientology religion and the holder of exclusive
rights under the
>copyrights applicable to the Advanced Technology materials. The Advanced
Technology
>materials are confidential, unpublished, copyrighted works. RTC's works
include, among others,
>the individual works comprising a level known as "NOTs."
>Gregg Hagglund containing my client, Religious Technology Center's
copyrighted materials,
>known as "NOTs Series No. 7". He has posted this work with the following
message ID:
>client. The works are registered with the US Copyright Office under
registration numbers TXu
>257326 and 257527.
>is on your site or has been made through your site, it is copyright
infringement for which you
>can be held liable. We therefore request that it be removed immediately.
>lawsuits. Preliminary injunctions based on copyright infringement and
trade secret
>misappropriation are in place in three of those suits in the United States
District Court in San
>Jose, California. And a United States District Court in the state of
Virginia has granted
>judgment in favor of my client, related to copyright infringement of some
of these works.
>access provider which is informed that infringement is occurring through
its system and does
>nothing to stop it can be liable for contributory infringement.
>measures to protect my client's intellectual property rights. We presume
that you would agree
>that we can resolve this amicably.
>because of the urgency of canceling this posting through your system so
that it is removed both
>from your system and other computers to which it has been sent.
Here is what I sent to my ISP:
originate a quote of something , in its entirety, which is copyright to
another that I know of. Unless it is in the fair use context, or I have
permission or made the requiste legal attempts to gain permission.
In this instance, I was responding to someone else's post which I did
not alter, but simply added my comment to his/hers. "
[ Below please find a copy of a posting I made to Phil Cole yesterday.]
you will soon come to realize are not trivial in the least. And ultimately
have little to do with the purported unproven and unsubstantiated claim
of 'Unauthorized Use of Copyrighted Materials'.
communique misleading information in an effort to sound impressive and
to intimidate. This is the standard operating practice of her client the
Church of Scientology. One glaring error is the claim that RTC has an
injunction on anyone involving trade secret violations, these have been
withdrawn by the RTC.
There do exist injunctions upon specific individuals in specific jurisdictions
for specific copyright claims made by RTC, however none of
these injunctions relates to me or you or any other Canadian citizen or ISP.
a decision of a US Court, by virtue of a ruling called the KOLT ruling,
which deemed these materials to still remain the property of an organisation
called the CSC. This has become the central issue of the several litigations
the RTC frivolously and foolishly initiated in the United States despite
having
lost the same court battles and claims in Europe. [Check with ISP xs4all.]
notice of any kind, nor legal in any manner or recognised by *any* court
anywhere as applicable proper legal notification under any circumstances,
urgent or not.
COGECO can not be held liable, should there even be any liability
for my posting, until such time as proper legal notice is given in accordance
with the laws of Ontario and Canada to me or COGECO and I, or COGECO,
should then fail to cancel the post in question.
in absence of any proof that such a posting contains any material copyright
to anyone, is an infringement of my Freedom of Speech as guaranteed by
the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
many such improper and unlegal communiques from 'Ms. Kobrin' in the past.
So have other ISPs.
Certified Applicable Legal Notification.
sending an illegal RMGROUP command for alt.religion.scientology in
an attempt to stifle Free Speech all over the Globe.
requested through proper and legal means I would be willing to cancel,
at your request, any post that I originated which violated 'Fair Use'.
any posting or honor any request to cancel any posting until such time
as proper legal notice, in a legal manner, containing sufficient proof of
an authentic claim of copyright, is given.
the same of me until such time as the above conditions are satsified.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeta
[This site was voluntarily withdrawn As of September, 1997.
However, all CoS documents remain available thru' other Internet means
including Operation Clambake as offered below.]
-an internationally known and publicly accessible repository of all
the materials Ms. Kobrin claims as being copyright to RTC whom
she claims in her unlegal notice to represent.
anywhere on this document.
this and similar sites at xs4all remove these documents.
the document contained in the posting to which I *merely responded*.
You will also notice that this document, of which I originated nothing
from, comprises a tiny segment of those documents upon this site.
being the instrument of illegally abridging my Freedom of Speech through
censorship by the representative of an organisation whose operating
doctrine includes the precept that "you can control people by lying to them,"
and " tell an acceptable truth".
*the moment I receive an applicable true legal notice*. Or should you show me,
physically, an applicable true legal notice served upon you.
Scientology acting here as the RTC, has at their disposal the technical
ability to issue a cancel of their own of my posting. This would not be
an illegal act in the United States, provided that they did infact hold a
legal copyright to this or similar articles posted by others. That they have
not done so should clearly indicate to you that they themselves do not wish
to be held accountable for an indefensible criminal act of third party
cancelling of the posts of Usenet users on the pretext of copyright
ownership which may *not* be valid.
Related to the forgery issue (above), there are many cases on
Usenet where the copyrighted material of one person is posted by
another. There is a consensus emerging that such posts are cancellable
by the holder of the copyright, though many other legal issues may be
involved in the future. As with many other topics, this issue is still
being discussed; for more information, see news.admin.net-abuse.policy."]
charge of a user, ie the person's news administrator. These, too, are
officially authorized in all circumstances, as are cancellations by a
third-party explicitly authorized by the poster's news admin."]
Free Speech provisions of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
of the Church of Scientology using her account at netcom,
feels compelled to attack me through attempting to bully and manipulate
you into doing what they cannot and darenot: infringe my rights
guaranteed by the Charter.
why they darenot try such infringement themselves.
of the Church of Scientology, deemed that any criminal act commited
*by* an agent of the Church of Scientology, *for* the benefit of the
Church of Scientology, is considered a criminal act *of* the entire
Church of Scientology.
series of such unsubstantiated claims, until such time as Ms. Kobrin is
able to supply proper applicable legal notice of any nature.
rather than repeated similar unlegal notices, from a 'Ms. Kobrin'
for over six months and have not received same. Check with his ISP.
in a professional manner and demand, as I have, of Ms. Kobrin et al,
more than the specious claims she has made to you and myself,
delivered in an unlegal manner, before you take any action
whatsoever in this matter.
as I have mine, and then consult with myself, directly, before succumbing
to and acting upon, these unlegal and unprofessional intimidation tactics,
committed I believe, as an attempt at extralegal censorship,
which may quite possibly be a hoax or even a fraud.
which I or your staff or the Church of Scientology and RTC
could cancel in a heartbeat.
into imposing upon my or any other subscribers Freedom of Speech,
at the behest of the Church of Scientology,
is the entire object of this exercise.
> Now they may have sent this to you or something similar,
>I don't know, but I feel obligated to keep my ISP informed.
>of the known total Nots series, which may, may, be held copyright
>by the RTC.
>the CSC held all the copyrights that now RTC claims. CSC transfer of
>these to the RTC is being challenged because it was done after the CSC
> was found liable in a lawsuit. The CoS gutted CSC to avoid payment,
>including transferring certain copyrights to RTC.
>or something similar on an internationally famous Website for months
>and the RTC haven't
>even sent that Webpage Author one true legal notice, despite him asking
>and pleading for one, so he can be clear on what is and isn't what.
>prove that they *do* hold legal copyrights on a number of documents of
>which the one referred to below *might* be part of.
>titled Nots 7, however since said document is a supposed secret and RTC
> has never acknowledged publicly its contents how the heck is anyone to
> know what is or isn't owned by anyone?
>quote of something , in its entirety, which is copyright to another that
>I know of. Unless it is in the fair use context, or I have permission or
>made the requiste legal attempts to gain permission. In this instance,
>I was responding to someone else's post which I did not alter,
>but simply added my comment to his/hers.
> anyone with half a brain would accept as valid any purported legal
>document or claim sent via the common and easily manipulated
>medium of e-mail.
>has been known to audit tomatoes and command ashtrays to fly,
>it is not an impossibility that this is a real posting.
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