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Starjade.

If you are constructive you would have done the research yourself. I gave you the tools, and, if you couldn't be bothered to do the searches yourself, the links.

No Islamic sources.

Just the KJV Bible.

Here is a sample of the sort of work you could have done using the sources I suggested:

Tâlâh
to hang
a) (Qal) 1) to hang a) to hang up (any object) b) to put to death by hanging
b) (Niphal) to be hanged
c) (Piel) to hang, hang up (for display)


40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee,
(Cut his head off).

and

(Then)

shall hang thee on a tree;

(without his head, it can't be by the neck, as many claim.)

and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee.

The Qur'an says 'eat his head'.

THE FULFILLMENT

Gen 40:22 But he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them.
Gen 41:13 And it came to pass, as he interpreted to us, so it was; me he restored unto mine office, and him he hanged.

'éts

1) wood, tree, gallows, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick,
a) tree, trees
b) wood, gallows, pieces of wood, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax

Though not here, I would include stake or post (as in a witch burned at the stake, tied to a post) among the definitions.

Kremannumi
1) to hang up, suspend
2) to be suspended, to hang
a) used of one hanging on a cross
b) used of the Law and the Prophets, they is summed up or hanging on two precepts

Xulon
1) wood
a) that which is made of wood
1) as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross
2) a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs
3) a fetter, or shackle for the feet
4) a cudgel, stick, staff
2) a tree

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

The cross is called a tree.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

This refers to Deuteronomy,

21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

This proves that in Deuteronomy, just as in Acts and Genesis, hanged does not mean by the neck, but tied up on or nailed to a post, stake or tree.

Hence this form of execution was well known in Moses' time and in Joseph's time, alayhum salam.

Try and prove otherwise, if you can.
_________________
Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.

Last edited by hanifan on Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:29 pm; edited 2 times in total

Not you, Bahagia. I just quoted your link to draw attention to it.

I was addressing Starjade
_________________
Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.

Starjade says: I am not forcing the Koran into a lie. The Sura 4:82 exposes a lie in hte Suras that I have mentioned and recorded history states that the Egyptions did not use crucifixion or dismemberment, That is an Islamic form of punishment and the koran was written by a Muslim who also added his own words that are not true as those Magicians were not threatened at all by the Pharaoh. Only the Koran claims that it states another more true story in the Old testament as recorded by those Jews at that Time. So even the tale of those magicians and those threats are all errors found in the Koran because no such threat was ever made against those magicians.

That is further proof that the Koran is in error. And that its claims of crucifixion which began some 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh are written by someone who was clearly living at a much later date over 1700 years later and after Muhammad certainly to understand the Islamic form of capital punishment that he included as if the Egyptions did those things when historians will point out that the Egyptions did not.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Hanifan you say: If you are constructive you would have done the research yourself. I gave you the tools, and, if you couldn't be bothered to do the searches yourself, the links.

Starjade says: I have been very constructive and effectively proved that errors exist in the Koran. I quoted the Koran verses itself and so the Koran being the subject of discussion under the Sura 4:82 then the Koran and the Old Testament can be the only sources apart from history.

Hanifan you say: No Islamic sources. Just the KJV Bible. Here is a sample of the sort of work you could have done using the sources I suggested:

Starjade says: What are you talking about. I quoted statements taken from the Koran. You cannot get to a more Islamic scource than that and the Bible I got my quotes from is 300 years old and is designed to be read in Churches. But any Old Testament will give a different account to the statements made in the Koran. And no Bible will say that those magicians were ever threatened with crucifixion and mutilation they are Islamic forms of punishment and it is known already that crucifixion did not begin until 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. What more needed to be said. And I did mention several Sura’s where crucifixion is mentioned. I have not even got to where the Koran claims the Pharaohs wife adopted Moses whiles in the Old Testament it was clearly the Pharaohs daughter.

Hanifan you say:

Tâlâh to hang a) (Qal) 1) to hang a) to hang up (any object) b) to put to death by hanging
b) (Niphal) to be hanged c) (Piel) to hang, hang up (for display) 40:19 Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thy head from off thee, (Cut his head off). and (Then) shall hang thee on a tree; (without his head, it can't be by the neck, as many claim.) and the birds shall eat thy flesh from off thee. The Qur'an says 'eat his head'.

Starjade says: I did mention this head was it not in this thread. Either way it is simply the error 7:124 that was under question and Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71. The point being the whole claim was untrue. Those Magicians were not under any threat at all. Not from Crucifixion and dismemberment or from the Pharaoh. The Korans account is untrue and fabricated. The Old Testament clearly is the source of that Exodus tale and I quoted that tale briefly to show that such threats did not exist and further to that is that crucifixion was not used as Punishment by the Pharaoh as the Koran claims.

Hanifan you say:
THE FULFILLMENT Gen 40:22 But he hanged the chief baker: as Joseph had interpreted to them. Gen 41:13 And it came to pass, as he interpreted to us, so it was; me he restored unto mine office, and him he hanged. 'éts

Starjade says: Well hanging is not the same as Crucifixion and it states in the Koran that the Magicians were threatened by the Pharaoh with dismemberment and crucifixion. This is an Islamic form of punishment still practised today. Hanging is another statement altogether isn’t it.

Hanifan you say: 1) wood, tree, gallows, timber, stock, plank, stalk, stick, a) tree, trees
b) wood, gallows, pieces of wood, firewood, cedar-wood, woody flax Though not here, I would include stake or post (as in a witch burned at the stake, tied to a post) among the definitions.

Starjade says: Hanging is not what is said in Sura 7:124 or Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71. it states very clearly and in different Suras that the Magicians were threatened with dismemberment of the cutting off of the arms and feet on opposite sides and crucifixion. Hanging is a whole other way of killing someone. The Koran claims crucifixion and dismemberment and that the Pharaoh made those threats which clearly as recorded by the Old Testament the Pharaoh never made any such threats. Hence the Koran is in error.

Hanifan you continue:
Kremannumi 1) to hang up, suspend 2) to be suspended, to hang
a) used of one hanging on a cross b) used of the Law and the Prophets, they is summed up or hanging on two precepts

Starjade says: The Quran ; Sura No. 20 ; Ta’Ha:71 ] “Be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees, so you shall know for certain, which of us can give the more lasting Punishment” Clearly a cross member is logical to hang a human but near impossible if they have lost a hand and a foot.

Yet the Egyptians did not crucify people that began 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh and what is more that is an Islamic way of punishment still practised today in Islamic countries. It was not practised by the Pharaoh and the Pharaoh did not threaten the Magicians as the Koran claims.

Hanifan you say:
Xulon
1) wood a) that which is made of wood 1) as a beam from which any one is suspended, a gibbet, a cross 2) a log or timber with holes in which the feet, hands, neck of prisoners were inserted and fastened with thongs 3) a fetter, or shackle for the feet 4) a cudgel, stick, staff
2) a tree

Starjade says: I think you are getting too exited about ways to hand a person. The Pharaoh did not make any threats to his Magicians at all. So the Koran is in error giving a false account of that exodus. And those magicians did not die at the hand of the Pharaoh. They were not crucified or threatened with crucifixion or dismemberment. So the Koran is proven to be in error. Sura 4:82 if one error exists in the Koran then that is proof the Koran did not come from God and I have mentioned more than one error existing in the Koran. And that fact is proven.

Hanifan you say:
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: The cross is called a tree.

Starjade says: Actually there are two Bibles in existence with different statements on How Jesus died. One should say that Jesus died on a Cross and the other should say that the Christ died upon a tree. I think I have already mentioned why.

And the statement is with regards to the threat of the Pharaoh admonishing his Magicians and threatening them with crucifixion. The Christians new Testament only began some 500 years after the claimed death of Jesus. And is not relevant to this specific conversation about the Pharaoh threatening the Magicians in the Koran. That tale is not true. So this error does clearly exist in the Koran and in more than one place.

Hanifan you say:
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

Starjade says: Now the Christ being a Mushroom would die upon a tree. But we are not speaking of the Christ but of the Pharaohs magicians. The New Testament is irrelevant especially as the Romans were more than happy to Crucify Christians so you are talking from a different Time period. I was speaking about the Times of Moses and the Exodus.

Hanfan you say:
This refers to Deuteronomy, 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

Starjade says: Be wary of Statements speaking of things dying on a tree in the Old and New Testaments. Sometimes it is hidden and they are references to Mushrooms and not to man. And where then does it say cut off his hands and feet on opposite sides. Any Muslim will tell you that is an Islamic way of punishment and it was not practised by the Pharaohs and the Pharaoh did not threaten his Magicians at all with anything. It only claims that in the Koran which is why the Koran is proven to have errors within its text.

Hanifan you say: This proves that in Deuteronomy, just as in Acts and Genesis, hanged does not mean by the neck, but tied up on or nailed to a post, stake or tree. Hence this form of execution was well known in Moses' time and in Joseph's time, alayhum salam.
Try and prove otherwise, if you can.

Starjade says: It does not say crucified in the Old Testament and hanging is different and the cutting off of hands and feet on opposite sides and crucifixion is purely Islamic form of punishment. You are changing crucifixion as it says for hanging and also missing out on the dismemberments that are only Islamic as it states that was the form of death and not the form that you suggest.

And you are forgetting that the Pharaoh did not make any threats to his Magicians. The whole account in the Koran is in error and not true. The Old Testament is the only true source of data about that Exodus as was recorded by the Jews of that Time. The Koran however written by Zayd ibn Thabit a Muslim who quoted an Islam form of punishment still exacted to this very day precisely by the cutting off of the hands and feets on opposite sides.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade says "I quoted statements taken from the Koran. You cannot get to a more Islamic scource than that and the Bible I got my quotes from is 300 years old and is designed to be read in Churches. But any Old Testament will give a different account to the statements made in the Koran."

There are some differences and many similarities. It makes no difference. The Qur'an has been authorised by Allah (God) to be the authority over the previous books (most incorporated in the modern Bible, but not all), and it's account supercedes, abrogates and corrects the statements and stories of the Bible. Allah calls the Qur'an a confirmation of what went before it and the authorizer of the earlier scripture. He also says that the scholars and priests of the earlier religions have altered the previous books so they conform to what pleases them more, selling their verses as God's verses. This is the what God tells us of the evidence you present from Biblical sources. What is confirmed in the Qur'an is true. What is omitted, the Qur'an fills. And what is contrary, the Qur'an corrects.

Starjade said, "And no Bible will say that those magicians were ever threatened with crucifixion and mutilation they are Islamic forms of punishment and it is known already that crucifixion did not begin until 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. What more needed to be said. And I did mention several Sura’s where crucifixion is mentioned."

This is the first I have ever heard that crucifixion and mutilation are Islamic forms of punishment. Every account of these has been at the hands of pagans, Jews or Christians.

Who knows crucifixion did not begin until 1700 years after the Pharoah's death? Give me your irrefutable evidence or simply withdraw the statement. In fact, the evidence I showed you from the Bible (and you say there are two Bibles where the word used in the passages I quoted differ. Please show me the proof of that statement, too. I know of 21 versions of the Bible, including the textus receptus in Greek, which prove that the words 'tree' and 'hung on' are precisely as I mentioned - the definitions mentioned of which are from Strong's Concordance Dictionary. If you had read the link provided by Bahagia, you would have found that the question of 'crucifixion' being an ancient form of punishment and execution dating back to phaoronic times is rcognised by the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia. So much for your 1700 year theorybeing universally recognised.

Starjade says "I have not even got to where the Koran claims the Pharaohs wife adopted Moses whiles in the Old Testament it was clearly the Pharaohs daughter."

Yet another mistake in the Bible.

Starjade says "You are changing crucifixion as it says for hanging and also missing out on the dismemberments that are only Islamic as it states that was the form of death and not the form that you suggest."

Pagans practice dismemberment. Not Muslims. Where in the Qur'an does it mention believers doing what you suggest is an 'Islamic form of punishment'?

I am not changing anything. Paul equates the 'hanging' mentioned in Deuteronomy with the crucifixion of Jesus directly. Now, if you are a Christian and believe in the infallibility of your scriptures, how come Paul made the mistake of calling 'hanging' the same as Jesus' crucifixion.

Furthermore, the word in Genisis describing Joseph's interpretation of the dream translates the word as 'hang ON' a tree, and I have shown the word tree ('etz) can be translated by a variety of words including gallows and timber and stick. The Basic word is the material of the trees (wood), and nothing about the shape the woould is in is said in the original Hebrew.

Besides, 'tree' is an accurate description of 'the trunks of palm trees', especially if these trunks were upright.

As for dismenberment, Genisis 40:19 clearly says the Pharoah threatened to 'lift upy your head from OFF you' before the threat of 'hang you on a tree', which precludes completely the interpretation of hang ON as the classical 'hanging a man by the neck until he is dead. The fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy is translated in the KJV as 'hang' without the particle ON, makes no difference since the Hebrew word is the same as in Genisis 40.19.

The general story of the interpretation of the dreams by Joseph remain almost entirely congruent apart from the fact that in the Bible the baker is threatened with birds coming to eat (his body), the Qur'an mentions his head as being pecked by birds.

You mentioned that the story of Moses Casting his staff and it becoming a snake that swallowed the Magicians' snake staffs was wrong. However, you fail to acknowledge that Aaron is purported to have used the staff to 'swallow' the magician's staffs in the Talmud,
[quote=Jewish Encyclopedia]With this staff Aaron and Moses performed all the miracles related in Scripture, noteworthy among which was the swallowing up of the wonder-working rods of the Egyptian Posdi.[/quote]
which explains the Torah. In fact, there is a theory it was Aaron who used the staff, not moses, and that does contradict what the Qur'an says. No matter, the events are confirmed if not the doer, and we know that The Qur'an is the authority, so we get the truth of the matter from it, rather than the Bible.

Information about The Cross

The cross is not a cross

He was hanged:

In Jewish records in the Talmud, as a confirmation of the reality of the crucifixion of Jesus, is recorded:

In the Talmud, Sanh. 7:4 refers to Him being subjected to halakhah, being "hanged alive".

This, along with stoning, was the legal punishment for "leading others astray or practicing sorcery". Sanh. 6:4 also refers to the event.

So, if 'crucify' in the Qur'an is the same as 'crucify' in the Bible, your argument has completely evaporated.
_________________
Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.

Starjade says "I quoted statements taken from the Koran. You cannot get to a more Islamic scource than that and the Bible I got my quotes from is 300 years old and is designed to be read in Churches. But any Old Testament will give a different account to the statements made in the Koran."

There are some differences and many similarities. It makes no difference. The Qur'an has been authorised by Allah (God) to be the authority over the previous books (most incorporated in the modern Bible, but not all), and it's account supercedes, abrogates and corrects the statements and stories of the Bible. Allah calls the Qur'an a confirmation of what went before it and the authorizer of the earlier scripture. He also says that the scholars and priests of the earlier religions have altered the previous books so they conform to what pleases them more, selling their verses as God's verses. This is the what God tells us of the evidence you present from Biblical sources. What is confirmed in the Qur'an is true. What is omitted, the Qur'an fills. And what is contrary, the Qur'an corrects.

Starjade said, "And no Bible will say that those magicians were ever threatened with crucifixion and mutilation they are Islamic forms of punishment and it is known already that crucifixion did not begin until 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. What more needed to be said. And I did mention several Sura’s where crucifixion is mentioned."

This is the first I have ever heard that crucifixion and mutilation are Islamic forms of punishment. Every account of these has been at the hands of pagans, Jews or Christians.

Who knows crucifixion did not begin until 1700 years after the Pharoah's death? Give me your irrefutable evidence or simply withdraw the statement. In fact, the evidence I showed you from the Bible (and you say there are two Bibles where the word used in the passages I quoted differ. Please show me the proof of that statement, too. I know of 21 versions of the Bible, including the textus receptus in Greek, which prove that the words 'tree' and 'hung on' are precisely as I mentioned - the definitions mentioned of which are from Strong's Concordance Dictionary. If you had read the link provided by Bahagia, you would have found that the question of 'crucifixion' being an ancient form of punishment and execution dating back to phaoronic times is rcognised by the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia. So much for your 1700 year theorybeing universally recognised.

Starjade says "I have not even got to where the Koran claims the Pharaohs wife adopted Moses whiles in the Old Testament it was clearly the Pharaohs daughter."

Yet another mistake in the Bible.

Starjade says "You are changing crucifixion as it says for hanging and also missing out on the dismemberments that are only Islamic as it states that was the form of death and not the form that you suggest."

Pagans practice dismemberment. Not Muslims. Where in the Qur'an does it mention believers doing what you suggest is an 'Islamic form of punishment'?

I am not changing anything. Paul equates the 'hanging' mentioned in Deuteronomy with the crucifixion of Jesus directly. Now, if you are a Christian and believe in the infallibility of your scriptures, how come Paul made the mistake of calling 'hanging' the same as Jesus' crucifixion.

Furthermore, the word in Genisis describing Joseph's interpretation of the dream translates the word as 'hang ON' a tree, and I have shown the word tree ('etz) can be translated by a variety of words including gallows and timber and stick. The Basic word is the material of the trees (wood), and nothing about the shape the woould is in is said in the original Hebrew.

Besides, 'tree' is an accurate description of 'the trunks of palm trees', especially if these trunks were upright.

As for dismenberment, Genisis 40:19 clearly says the Pharoah threatened to 'lift upy your head from OFF you' before the threat of 'hang you on a tree', which precludes completely the interpretation of hang ON as the classical 'hanging a man by the neck until he is dead. The fact that the fulfillment of this prophecy is translated in the KJV as 'hang' without the particle ON, makes no difference since the Hebrew word is the same as in Genisis 40.19.

The general story of the interpretation of the dreams by Joseph remain almost entirely congruent apart from the fact that in the Bible the baker is threatened with birds coming to eat (his body), the Qur'an mentions his head as being pecked by birds.

You mentioned that the story of Moses Casting his staff and it becoming a snake that swallowed the Magicians' snake staffs was wrong. However, you fail to acknowledge that Aaron is purported to have used the staff to 'swallow' the magician's staffs in the Talmud, as the Jewish Encyclopedia mentions:

[quote=]With this staff Aaron and Moses performed all the miracles related in Scripture, noteworthy among which was the swallowing up of the wonder-working rods of the Egyptian Posdi.[/quote]

which explains the Torah. In fact, there is a theory it was Aaron who used the staff, not moses, and that does contradict what the Qur'an says. No matter, the events are confirmed if not the doer, and we know that The Qur'an is the authority, so we get the truth of the matter from it, rather than the Bible.

Information about The Cross

The cross is not a cross

He was hanged:

In Jewish records in the Talmud, as a confirmation of the reality of the crucifixion of Jesus, is recorded:

In the Talmud, Sanh. 7:4 refers to Him being subjected to halakhah, being "hanged alive".

This, along with stoning, was the legal punishment for "leading others astray or practicing sorcery". Sanh. 6:4 also refers to the event.

So, if 'crucify' in the Qur'an is the same as 'crucify' in the Bible, your argument has completely evaporated.
_________________
Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.

I noticed you did not, not even ONCE, deal with the information I gave you that makes problems for your thesis. You simply reworded your original contribution, then told me about what some other people think or say (no sources or even an explanation of their arguments), and then conclude that where the bible is silent on a matter implies the quran is wrong.
1) Take a basic course in critical thinking
2) form an argument
3) your opinions are not proof
Thanks

[quote="Starjade"]

_________________
"Were I alive, the earth would tremble," -Amir Timur; inscribed on the great leader's tomb

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power.
-- Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica


A person needs new experiences. They jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.
-Dune

From the perspective of the rational of starjaded:

The bible is in error because it leaves out the accounts of the magicians being threatened. You know this as well, and you have admitted to this error in the bible by bringing it up.

Please deal with the info concerning the notion that crucifixion was not bound to the time periods you claim.

Thanks.

_________________
"Were I alive, the earth would tremble," -Amir Timur; inscribed on the great leader's tomb

As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power.
-- Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica


A person needs new experiences. They jar something deep inside, allowing him to grow. Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken.
-Dune

So what else do you expect from a Jew?

The bible says this but the Quran does not. Therefore, the Quran is wrong

If Muhammad(pbuh) copied the Quran from the bible, why did he say that the flood of Noah was localised whereas the bible says there was a world flood(which is against modern science).

Puhlease

_________________
Sam Shamouni, Jochen Katz and Ali Sina love to wrestle in mud, wearing nothing but bikinis.

Hanifan you said: There are some differences and many similarities. It makes no difference. The Qur'an has been authorised by Allah (God) to be the authority over the previous books (most incorporated in the modern Bible, but not all), and it's account supercedes, abrogates and corrects the statements and stories of the Bible.

Starjade says: What you mean is Muslims make these claims and cannot back their mouths up. The Old Testament was around long before the Koran and its history and laws contradict the Koran. So Muslims say we shall say out book came from Allah and so everyone must ignore all other religious books and doctrines. How convenient for you all. However Sura 4:82 says: Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. Already you Muslims are stuck with the Sura 7:124 and the other errors that are proven to exist in the Koran. This means the Koran did not come from God. This also proves that the word of Muhammad is not true. This means that Muhammad was presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name and this Allah that Muslims worship is not God but a God of Muhammad’s imagination on his ideals of what he wishes his God to be like. So for you to ignore the Old Testament and the laws brought down by Moses is a clear act of Blasphemy.

The Koran does not correct statements in the Old Testament is corrupts them. And this again is a very weak excuse to cover up the errors made by Muhammad and the writers of the Koran. The Living Gods anger already blazes upon Muslims world wide and one day you shall die and a special place in Hell awaits you.

Hanifan you say:
Allah calls the Qur'an a confirmation of what went before it and the authorizer of the earlier scripture. He also says that the scholars and priests of the earlier religions have altered the previous books so they conform to what pleases them more, selling their verses as God's verses. This is the what God tells us of the evidence you present from Biblical sources. What is confirmed in the Qur'an is true. What is omitted, the Qur'an fills. And what is contrary, the Qur'an corrects.

Starjade says: It is not Allah saying these things it is manipulative Muslims using this as a way of gaining control over the congregations. Muhammad has easily been proven to be a fraud and you have not received all of that proof yet. This Allah you speak of is not the God of Abraham and of Moses and of Starjade. It is simply a God of Muhammads own imagination. So it is not what the Living God tells you it is what Muhammad and the Koran tells you and that is a big difference between the truth and delusions. So now you are using this imagined God of Muhammad to escape the reality of the mistakes in the Koran that you have no answer for. You Muslims are the ones proven to sell Verses of the Koran as if they are Gods when in fact the statements of the Koran are proven to be outright to be lies and the statements of Muhammad the self appointed Prophets imagination.

Hanifan you say: This is the first I have ever heard that crucifixion and mutilation are Islamic forms of punishment. Every account of these has been at the hands of pagans, Jews or Christians.

Starjade says: If you do not know these are Islamic forms of capital punishment then I suggest you get out more. The many Muslims I speak with openly have pointed those facts out when I presented the error 7: 124 in the Koran to them. They also got many hundred more errors that are found in the Koran that they could not reply an account for.

Hanifan you say:
Who knows crucifixion did not begin until 1700 years after the Pharaoh's death? Give me your irrefutable evidence or simply withdraw the statement. In fact, the evidence I showed you from the Bible (and you say there are two Bibles where the word used in the passages I quoted differ. Please show me the proof of that statement, too. I know of 21 versions of the Bible, including the textus receptus in Greek, which prove that the words 'tree' and 'hung on' are precisely as I mentioned - the definitions mentioned of which are from Strong's Concordance Dictionary. If you had read the link provided by Bahagia, you would have found that the question of 'crucifixion' being an ancient form of punishment and execution dating back to phaoronic times is recognised by the Roman Catholic Encyclopaedia. So much for your 1700 year theory being universally recognised.

Starjade says: Historians and Egyptians and Jews know these things that Crucifixion was not practised by the Egyptians and historians are very much aware of those facts these things are already spoken about and have been researched so take those questions to them and do your own research, I am far too busy. I will not be withdrawing the statement just because you are not able to reply a true answer. And this is not the only forum where these matters are discussed. These errors are not going to go away Muslims are going to have to face them. Crucifixion was not practised by the Egyptians nor was cutting off of the hands and feet and those Magicians were never threatened with such punishment the Koran is in error. You try to excuse this away by speaking of hangings instead of sticking to the way the Koran claims those magicians were threatened and you do not mention the cutting off of the hands and feet. Or the fact that the Pharaoh never made any threats to those Magicians it only claims that in the Koran.

I read your links and they prove nothing. The Koran made those claims of Crucifixion and the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides. So if others come along well over a thousands years after the death of the Pharaoh making such claims of crucifixion existing during the times of the Pharaoh then they also were misled by the Koran. Those Roman Catholics word is worth nothing to me. They are some of the biggest liars in history. Crucifixion and the cutting off of the hands and feet is an Islamic form of punishment still practised today. And the Pharaoh did not threaten those Magicians as claimed by the Koran. You could not reply an answer to that error and now you search for convenient explanations. But you are misled. There are other matters that prove Muhammad is a fraud that you are not aware of and so these excuses you make to escape reality will be of no help to you.

Starjade says "I have not even got to where the Koran claims the Pharaohs wife adopted Moses whiles in the Old Testament it was clearly the Pharaohs daughter."

Hanifan you say: Yet another mistake in the Bible.

Starjade says: So you are saying that the Pharaohs wife did adopt Moses then are you?

Hanifan you say: Pagans practice dismemberment. Not Muslims. Where in the Qur'an does it mention believers doing what you suggest is an 'Islamic form of punishment'?

Starjade says: Clearly it says that in the Sura 7:124 and many other places in the Koran and that information about Islamic punishment came from other Muslims many living in countries where such a punishment is still practised but not often enforced. I do speak with many Muslims all over the world.

Hanifan you say:
I am not changing anything. Paul equates the 'hanging' mentioned in Deuteronomy with the crucifixion of Jesus directly. Now, if you are a Christian and believe in the infallibility of your scriptures, how come Paul made the mistake of calling 'hanging' the same as Jesus' crucifixion?

Starjade says: Deuteronomy does not mention Jesus nor does the Old Testament anywhere. The Testimonies of Mathew Mark Luke and John are proven to not be true by the religious law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15. They are giving false Testimony that is just hearsay. The Romans practised Crucifixion and so in their Time period Crucifixion was commonplace but only Crucifixion. The practice of cutting off the hands and feet on opposite sides is Islamic and not practiced by the Romans or other cultures that I am aware of. It is an Islamic form of punishment. And the Pharaoh did not threaten those Magicians it only claims that in the re worded version of the Koran.

I do not deny that a crucified man is hanging that would be clear, the crucified man would be hanging on the cross. But he would not have his hands and feet cut off on either side. That is only an Islamic way of doing things and it is a known fact by historians that the Egyptians did not practice that form of punishment and did not threaten those Magicians. It only claims that in the re worded Koran. And then that is called crucifixion not hanging. The Koran says crucifixion not hanging. So the error still has not gone away or has been answered but has instead been dismissed by you with excuses.

Hanifan you say:
Furthermore, the word in Genesis describing Joseph's interpretation of the dream translates the word as 'hang ON' a tree, and I have shown the word tree ('etz) can be translated by a variety of words including gallows and timber and stick. The Basic word is the material of the trees (wood), and nothing about the shape the would is in is said in the original Hebrew.

Starjade says: I do not expect a Muslim to understand but there are hidden things in the Text of the Old and the New testament regarding the use of certain transcendental fungi that are often found on trees. Some times mentions of tree show that knowledge and other times it is to hide that knowledge. These translations you speak of how old are they and who was interpreting these statements.? We are speaking about the Sura 7:124 and the cutting off of the hands and feet and then crucifying the Magicians which historically did not occur at all. It only claims that in the Koran which has been proven to be false by the Sura: 4/82. There are many more errors than this tame one that I have mentioned. Those errors I have mentioned to other Muslims in the past did not leave the Koran in a Good light and many Muslims have since converted. And they were very hard core Muslims but they worshipped the Living God not Muhammad and they saw those errors did exist and then saw their Blasphemy and they then made that change which must have been a hard thing for them to do. But once they saw the light they did not want to continue to blaspheme and offend the true Living God.

You are obsessed with the hanging thing and forget the Koran says crucifixion and the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and you forget that the Magicians did not get threatened at all by the Pharaoh. It only claims that in the Koran and not by the Jews who recorded those events at that Time in the proven authentic Old Testament.

Hanifan you say:
Besides, 'tree' is an accurate description of 'the trunks of palm trees', especially if these trunks were upright.

Starjade says: If the tree is alive then the trunk of the tree is still the Tree. But the Egyptians did not practice any form of crucifixion did they. They had other uses for prisoners. Such as building Pyramids of which the slaves would not last long in that heat with such hard work. And Pharaoh’s would have better things to do than play games with punishments if those Magicians pissed the Pharaoh off then they could be put to death very easily. But the Pharaoh trusted his Magicians and had faith in them but the God of Moses was God and so they were Powerless. But the Pharaoh did not take that out on his Magicians.

Hanifan you say:
As for dismemberment, Genesis 40:19 clearly says the Pharaoh threatened to 'lift up your head from OFF you' before the threat of 'hang you on a tree', which precludes completely the interpretation of hang ON as the classical 'hanging a man by the neck until he is dead. The fact that the fulfilment of this prophecy is translated in the KJV as 'hang' without the particle ON, makes no difference since the Hebrew word is the same as in Genesis 40.19.

Starjade says: Yes the Pharaoh hanged the chief baker on a tree. But he did not cut off the hands and feet on opposite sides. And the Pharaohs servants were bowing in respect to the Pharaoh who then lifted up the heads of the Chief Butler and the Chief baker so it is not an indication the mans head was then decapitated. But the cutting off of heads was commonplace in many era’s whereas the cutting of the hands and feet on opposite sides was not practised at all. That is Islamic form of punishment. And that is what the Koran claims was threatened upon the Magicians by the Pharaoh. The cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucified. And again I say that it is known that this word crucifixion and its practice did not begin until 1700 years after the death of the Pharaoh. And it is known that the Egyptians did not practice that form of dismemberment.

Hanifan you say: The general story of the interpretation of the dreams by Joseph remain almost entirely congruent apart from the fact that in the Bible the baker is threatened with birds coming to eat (his body), the Qur'an mentions his head as being pecked by birds.

Starjade says: It only says in the Old Testament in Ch 40 v 17 And in the uppermost basket there was of all manner of bakements for the Pharaoh’ and the birds did eat them out of the basket upon my head.

It does not then say that when hung on the tree that the birds pecked away at his head does it. So the Koran is yet making another error in its interpretations.

Hanifan you say:
You mentioned that the story of Moses Casting his staff and it becoming a snake that swallowed the Magicians' snake staffs was wrong. However, you fail to acknowledge that Aaron is purported to have used the staff to 'swallow' the magician's staffs in the Talmud,

Starjade says: I said Arron cast his staff not Moses. And the magicians then cast two staffs and they also turned into snakes but the snake of Aaron ate the other two snakes up. I was quoting directly from a 300 years Old Bible to get the quotes correct. It is a misconception to believe that Moses cast that staff for he did not. The Living God made Aaron the Prophet of Moses hence the power was transmitted through Aaron.

Hanifan you say: [quote=Jewish Encyclopaedia] With this staff Aaron and Moses performed all the miracles related in Scripture, noteworthy among which was the swallowing up of the wonder-working rods of the Egyptian Posdi.[/quote]
which explains the Torah. In fact, there is a theory it was Aaron who used the staff, not Moses, and that does contradict what the Qur'an says. No matter, the events are confirmed if not the doer, and we know that The Qur'an is the authority, so we get the truth of the matter from it, rather than the Bible.

Starjade says: I think you must have misread my statements for I did say Aaron cast those staffs and it was his staff. Aaron was the channel of Gods Power. I know Muslims believe the Koran is the authority and that is the Islamic claim but you are in error of Judgement for the Sura 4:82 says if one error is found in the Koran then the Koran did not come from God. You know that as well as I do. You do not yet have my knowledge of many many errors going up to 500 errors reported to be in the Koran and so you are confident the Koran is valid. But the Koran says Sura 4:82 if one error is found in the Koran then the Koran did not come from God. This then as logic shows. That Muhammad is proven to be a liar (Eeeek) Now that maybe a shock to Muslims but the reality is sound. If the Koran did not come from God as Muhammad has claimed then this proves that Muhammad is not the Prophet of God that he has claimed himself to be and that makes him presumptuous to think he could speak in Gods name. Then when Muhammad has spoken about God this is not the Living God of Abraham and of Moses and of Starjade.

This then is a God of Muhammad’s own imagination and of Muhammad’s own ideals of what he would want his God to be like. That means all Muslims on the face of this earth are worshipping a God of Muhammad’s own imagination and not the Living God of Abraham and of Moses and of starjade. “That fact is inescapable”. Can you even begin to imagine what that knowledge would do to the Islamic world if Muslims did sincerely believe they worships the True Living God only to find they had been misled by an outrageous lie.

And the Law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 is a witness law that is designed to determine matters of the truth especially with crimes of Iniquity and Sin. And without doubt the Crime here is of Iniquity and has caused much Sin. Perhaps Muslims forget but Moses proved that his God is God and the Living God has said we must not follow false Prophets or false Gods.

Hanifan you say:
Information about The Cross

The cross is not a cross

He was hanged:

Starjade says: Well that is interesting. Clear logic says to hand a man in the form of Crucifixion then the Cross-member would be logical. But in my view why bother when a Tree is available. The Cross Member being mentioned was not of my doing but the Scholar who brought up this error 7:124 mentioned the Cross due to the speaking of Crucifixion. The Crucifixion as we all know is really the nailing of the person to that cross or tree. This was not practised by the Egyptians nor was the practice of cutting off the hands and feet. That form of punishment is purely from Islamic communities.

Hanifan you say:
In Jewish records in the Talmud, as a confirmation of the reality of the crucifixion of Jesus, is recorded: In the Talmud, Sanh. 7:4 refers to Him being subjected to halakhah, being "hanged alive". This, along with stoning, was the legal punishment for "leading others astray or practicing sorcery". Sanh. 6:4 also refers to the event. So, if 'crucify' in the Qur'an is the same as 'crucify' in the Bible, your argument has completely evaporated.[/quote]

Starjade says: Firstly the Magicians were not threatened with punishment of cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then being crucified as it claims in the Koran so that error still exists in the Koran. The accounts given in the Koran are not the same as the accounts as recorded by the Jews who lived in those Times.

We all know the story of Jesus and he was nailed to the cross. Now that is the true form of Execution by Crucifixion. I am surprised that the Talmud would even mention the false prophet Jesus for he sure as Hell was Guilty of Blasphemy on all accounts. But let us not forget that no evidence exists that can prove that Jesus ever even existed and this tale of Jesus was written by Mathew Luke Mark and John. It is just their word and their Testimonies are all hearsay. The Law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 would be in force because Jesus was accused of Blasphemy, which is a crime of Iniquity and Sin. But Jesus has no witnesses.

If the Jews ever bother themselves to learn religious law then they would know the punishment for Blasphemy is a death by stoning not by hanging or by Crucifixion. But let us not forget it was not the Jews who crucified Jesus it was the Romans. And he was Guilty of Blasphemy which is a crime of iniquity and Sin.

This term Crucify as you say in the Bible only exists in the Christians New Testament. The Romans added the New Testament onto the Old Testament and they are two separate books and two separate religions not one and the same. But any Bible with a New Testament in it is written and Published by Christians and the Jews themselves do not use that Bible because it has been corrupted by that Blasphemy and misconception misleading the congregations who now assume that they are all just one book. Helping the Christians believe them in their claims about Jesus, which are unfounded.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Timur Khan you say: I noticed you did not, not even ONCE, deal with the information I gave you that makes problems for your thesis. You simply reworded your original contribution, then told me about what some other people think or say (no sources or even an explanation of their arguments), and then conclude that where the bible is silent on a matter implies the quran is wrong.

Starjade says: I find this statement of yours rather difficult to understand exactly what you are complaining about. Can you be more precise. The Magicians were not threatened by the Pharaoh with the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then being crucified. It only claims that in the Koran and does not say that in the Old Testament as was recorded by the Jews of that Time.

The Sura 4:82 proves the Koran is wrong so I wasn’t voicing any opinions. I give the Koran and the Old Testament as sources as they are the topic of conversations. It is clear that the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying is Islamic punishment and not Egyptian punishment and the Magicians were not threatened by the Pharaoh at all. The Koran is not giving a True account of the Exodus and that makes my arguments all the more stronger. History disagrees with the claims made in the Koran. Therfore the Koran is proven to have written errors in its text that are not historically sound and not true.

Timur Khan you say: 1) Take a basic course in critical thinking
Starjade says: I am attempting to be tactful on these sensitive issues and I am being critical I don’t think I need much in the way of lessons on that matter.

Timur Khan you say: 2) form an argument

Starjade says: Huh ? Well I did that and look at the amazing conversations that have sprang up. Most interesting eh and exiting not like those threads that exist to glorify this or that. These are realo conversations and discussion.

Timur Khan you say: 3) your opinions are not proof Thanks.

Starjade says: Well so far I have not been voicing any opinions. Such a thing would be hard to state as proof when the text of the Koran and the Old Testament and History are already written.

Timur Khan you say: From the perspective of the rational of starjaded: The bible is in error because it leaves out the accounts of the magicians being threatened. You know this as well, and you have admitted to this error in the bible by bringing it up.

Starjade says: It is the Koran that clearly is in error and is making statements that do not correspond with actual history. The Jews lived in those Times and they recorded those events. Otherwise no Muslim would even be aware of them. And Muhammad could not have claimed that Moses and Isaiah had written about him and as Jesus claims himself to be that same Prophet that Muhammad has claimed himself to be (which is another error existing in the Koran) Then none of these religious statements would ever even have existed. But as they do then the source of that data comes from the Old Testament not the New Testament or the Koran.

The Sura 4:82 clear shows that errors exist in the Koran and more that just these Sura’s that I have so far mentioned and so I see a bigger picture. You may believe in Jinns and flying carpets but my mind is more in touch with reality and I cannot afford the luxury of placid imagination. The Koran came into being because of the Old Testament and its claims and you may not like that fact but it is a fact all the same. Now the Koran is existing only because Muhammad claims he is the Prophet that Moses and Isaiah wrote about in the Old Testament. It would not exist otherwise. The Christians new Testament also would not exist if it had not been for the claims of Mathew Luke Mark and John proclaiming Jesus as being that Prophet that Moses and Isaiah wrote about.

So the Koran is the Book with the errors as is the New Testament. The Old Testament was around long before you false Prophets were even born. So it is the books that follow that are in error for they are trying to fulfil the Prophecies written in the Old Testament.

Timur Khan you say:
Please deal with the info concerning the notion that crucifixion was not bound to the time periods you claim.

Starjade says: I mentioned not just crucifixion but in the cutting off of the hands and feet and then crucifixion which is not the Egyptian way of Capital punishment. That is Islamic punishment and did not exist until over a thousand years after the death of the Pharaoh. And during the Times of the Pharaoh as was recorded by those Jews who lived at that Time. The Pharaoh did not threaten the Magicians at all. The whole account of that Exodus event written in the Koran is wrong and in error. Sura 4:82 says if any errors are found in the Koran then that is proof the Koran did not come from God. Face the fact that these errors do exist and the explanations given for those errors are not strong enough to change those facts that the Koran is giving false accounts.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade says: I have already told you Dr Maybe that I am not a Jew and I am not a Christian and I am not a Muslim or the follower of anything else other than the one true Living God. I am not bound within the confines of any particular liturgical form of worship. And i know of the Living God by direct operation and not by reasoning nor specualtions or listening to peopl claiming this or that. You have a belief in God a faith in God but do not be so sure that the God you give worship to is the one true Living God. If the Koran is proven to not be from God. Then it is clear that you are the worshipper of a God of a false Prophets imagination.

The Sura 4:82 does say if just one error is found in the Koran then that is the proof that the Koran did not come from God. I mentioned more than one error that is found in the Koran. No Muslim yet has given an account that proves those errors do not exist exist in the Koran. In fact that is not possible as the Koran is already written and its account of the past history of the Exodus is not as history recorded those events by the Jews who lived during those Times.

Starjade says: Oh so you now mention yet another error that exists in the Koran about Noahs flood. And there is a debate in the Koran about such an history of wether or not Noahs son drowned. It seems the Koran was not sure about that either. And how then would a Muslim know about Noah other than from the Old Testament. The word copy cats comes to mind. But the Koran does have its history wrong. But with the amount of errors found in the text of the Koran by learned Scholars that is not a big surprise to me.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Actually, the Quran is right.

The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaelogical sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C. This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur’anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurance of that event, and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an.
_________________
Sam Shamouni, Jochen Katz and Ali Sina love to wrestle in mud, wearing nothing but bikinis.

Crucifixion has been shown to be in use much longer than your claim.
You failed to deal with this and keep repeating that crucifixion could not have happened in Egypt.

The bible omitting something does not prove the Quran is in error for mentioning what is left out in the bible. It simply is irraiotnal to assume this, and you MUST prove it if you feel this is the case.
Yo have yet to do that.



These two very simply points are the bases for your entire volumes of rambelings. Just deal with these points. I do not care about anything else, or your opinions, or who taught you, or what you did with yourself. Stay on topic!

Dr Maybe you said: Actually, the Quran is right.

Starjade says: (Cough Splutter hahaha) you made me laugh so much my nose goo almost blasted out onto my computer screen. Do Tell your conclusions as to why the Sura 4:82 should be ignored because of your views.

Dr Maybe you say: The Biblical description of the flood in Genesis chapter 6, 7 and 8 indicates that the deluge was universal and it destroyed every living thing on earth, except those present with Noah (pbuh) in the ark. The description suggests that the event took place 1656 years after the creation of Adam (pbuh) or 292 years before the birth of Abraham, at a time when Noah (pbuh) was 600 years old. Thus the flood may have occurred in the 21st or 22nd Century B.C.

Starjade says: Well I wasn’t there at that Time but in my view someone forgot about the Cavemen. I don’t doubt that some flood did take place but as they had no satellites in those days how could they know it was world wide. Many countries today get flooded and it is often described as being of apocalyptic proportion. Perhaps this flood theme was similar. As we were not there then we are in a tough position to Judge but surely our clever scientists could investigate and put that rumour to rest.

My interest in these Biblical text rests with the prophecy that God gave to Moses. I reall have little other interest in the religion of the Jews.

Dr Maybe you say: This story of the flood, as given in the Bible, contradicts scientific evidence from archaeological sources which indicate that the eleventh dynasty in Egypt and the third dynasty in Babylonia were in existence without any break in civilisation and in a manner totally unaffected by any major calamity which may have occurred in the 21st century B.C.

Starjade says: Well I figured as much.

Dr Maybe you say: This contradicts the Biblical story that the whole world had been immersed in the flood water. In contrast to this, the Qur’anic presentation of the story of Noah and the flood does not conflict with scientific evidence or archaeological data; firstly, the Qur’an does not indicate any specific date or year of the occurrence of that event.

Starjade says: You just said scientists said it did not occur now you say the Koran agrees that it did occur. Make your mind up did it or did it not.

Dr Maybe you say: and secondly, according to the Qur’an the flood was not a universal phenomenon which destroyed complete life on earth. In fact the Qur’an specifically mentions that the flood was a localised event only involving the people of Noah.

Starjade says: Well I just guessed that one so I am not impressed. Still the Sura 4:82 does say if one error is found in the Koran then the Koran did not come from God. I have already named many errors beginning with the Sura: 7:124. And I did mention other errors found in the Koran but this Flood thingy I was going to save. Never mind though I can see your all exited by this revelation. And there are other errors in the Koran about this Flood thingy and Noah. So as you are in that Flood mood and it is on your mind I shall point out some Noah errors found in the Koran. Seeing as this other matter seems unresolved by anything other than the Sura 4:82.

Dr Maybe you say: It is illogical to assume that Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) had borrowed the story of the flood from the Bible and corrected the mistakes before mentioning it in the Qur’an.

Starjade says: Why is that then. Why would Muhammad even bother speaking about the Hebrews or the Old Testament. Siddharta Guatama the founder of Buddhism invented his own religion and philosophies and Muhammad could have done the same. So why the interest in the Old Testament. Of course it was because he wanted people to believe he was that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up didn’t he. And then the descendants of Ishmael are today’s Arabs who got their history from Abraham of the Old Testament.

Starjade continues: Dr Maybe upon your request here are some errors found in the Koran about Noah and his sons. I thought you would appreciate them.

Noah and his son: (Remember) Noah, when he cried (to Us) aforetime: We listened to his (prayer) and delivered him and his family from great distress. -- Sura 21:76 So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us, and be not with the unbelievers!" The son replied: "I will betake myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy!" And the waves came between them,
and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood. -- Sura 11:42-43

Starjade says: (Sniff) that is so sad eh. So did he drown then in this flood you Dr Maybe claims did not occur.

The Koran says: One of Noah's sons dies in the Flood in contradiction to 21:76 which states that Allah saved him and his family. Now, this contradiction is "solved" in the Qur'an itself. When we read on in Sura 11 up to verse 46 we find Allah replying to Noah in regard to exactly this complaint that he has not saved his son: "O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which though Hast no knowledge!" So, we see that this problem is solved by "divine exclusion" and the Qur'an even admits that this can be something rather difficult to comprehend for normal human beings, even for the prophet of God, Noah.

Starjade says: Too bad Jonah did not swim by and give a hand cut off the magicians before the Pharaoh is claimed to crucify them.

The error in the Koran continues: It is certainly possible to disinherit sons or otherwise to deny them the legal status of a son, but it is impossible even for God that a biological son loses the property of being the seed of his father. As such, the formulation in Sura 37:77 "And made his seed the survivors" (of the Flood), is still difficult to reconcile with Allah's answer in Sura 11:46. A further question might be raised from Sura 11:27 in regard to the identity of those saved and those drowned in the flood.

But the chiefs of the Unbelievers among his people said [in response to Noah]: "We see (in) thee nothing but a man like ourselves:
Nor do we see that any follow thee but the meanest among us,
in judgment immature: Nor do we see in you (all) any merit above us:
in fact we think ye are liars!"

It is clear that Noah found some who believed his message and followed him. That the unbelievers call the believers "mean" and "immature" is to be expected and angry rethorics. But it cannot be denied that he had some followers, apart from his immediate family (which would not create this reaction, given that it is expected that the family follows the head of the family). This is again hinted at in Sura 7:64 stating: But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people!

Those "in the Ark" are contrasted with (i.e. are the opposite of) those "who rejected", i.e. they are those who believed. It is not as clear as 11:27, but it is pointing in the same direction.

Two issues arise here:
1. This contradicts the Torah where it is clear that only his family and all of his family are saved (eight people, Noah, and his wife and the three sons and their wives).

2. Given that the Qur'an speaks of further people who believe him, why were those who followed him outside his family not saved as well? Again, it says: "And made his seed the survivors" (37:77).

The inclusion / exclusion dynamics are rather complex in this story. In Sura 66:10, Noah's wife is assigned to Hell, and Yusuf Ali's commentary implies she perished in the flood. In Sura 11:40, we find the command for embarking on the Ark:

At length, behold! there came Our command,
and the fountains of the earth gushed forth!
We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female,
and your family - except those against whom the word has already gone forth,- and the Believers." but only a few believed with him.

Here again, we read of "a few believed with him", but why are they seemingly not saved according to Sura 37:77? And looking again at 11:42-43 (above), Noah calls out to his son to embark the Ark. So, he was not one "against whom the word has already gone forth" since then Noah would not have called him in disobedience to Allah's command. Clearly he was not forewarned about the perishing of this son as his prayer to Allah shows:

And Noah called upon his Lord, and said:
"O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" -- Sura 11:45

Allah's answer is:
He said: "O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous.
So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!" - Sura 11:46

Those Allah excluded beforehand are still called "your family" in 11:40, but in regard to the son, of whose exclusion Noah had no knowledge (until Allah's response in 11:46), it is said that he is not of his family.
This is a substantial inclusion-exclusion confusion.

Furthermore, there is a completely different, scientific problem. This whole conversation in 11:42-43 is impossible in the way it is reported. If you ever have been at sea when the waves are towering like mountains then you know how loud it is. Conversation, even when shouting is absolutely impossible. Note, it does not say that the water was already as deep as a mountain is high (but with a calm surface), it specifically speaks of waves, which means that there have to be strong winds to produce these waves. And that is always very loud.

Also, the Ark, a big ship was already afloat, i.e. "out on the water", while Noah's son seems during this conversation to be standing on the dry land in a distance allowing conversation (even if there were no noise around), and not swimming in the water and struggling with the waves. This is physically impossible for any normal landscape imaginable. After all this was not in a haven build for regular docking of ships.

Muhammad was a son of the desert, not aquainted very well with large amounts of water as at an ocean. That might explain why this story is narrated in such an unrealistic way.

And: Was Noah Driven Out?

After much dispute between Noah and his people (11:32) and their rejection of his message, Noah is commanded to build the Ark (11:37). Then we read: Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of his people passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. -- Sura 11:38

And then after the Ark is finished the fountains of the earth open up and the flood happens to judge the earth. In contrast to the above record we find elsewhere:

Before them the people of Noah rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, "Here is One possessed!" And he was driven out. -- Sura 54:9

After that the water comes and the Ark is mentioned and comes somehow "out of nowhere"...

Anyhow, if he was driven out of the country or out of the area, he obviously couldn't build the Ark where his people would regularly pass by. On the other hand, if he build the Ark before their very eyes, and was then driven out, how did he get back to the Ark for the flood? This was not a toy ship, he couldn't take that with him while "being driven out" and away from this ship. Furthermore, it contradicts the record of Noah in the Tora, which is in this respect in harmony with Sura 11 but not with Sura 54.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

Timur Khan you say: Crucifixion has been shown to be in use much longer than your claim. You failed to deal with this and keep repeating that crucifixion could not have happened in Egypt.

Starjade says: I have been dealing with this issue it is only you and others claiming that the cutting off of the hands and feet and crucifixion happened during the times of the Pharaoh but no historian would back you up unless of course they happened to be Muslims. It is known by Historians that the Egyptians did not use that form of capital punishment and the Crucifixion and its name began 1700 years after the Pharaoh died and the actual statement in the Old Testament as recorded by those Jews at that Time clearly gave a different account than the one stated in the Koran and the Pharaoh did not make such a threat to those Magicians.

As those Magicians were not threatened with the cutting off of the hands and feet and then being crucified then the Koran is in error and not giving a true account. So it is not just a matter of if Crucifixion existed during those times. But wither the Koran was correct in saying those Magicians were threatened with the cutting off of their hands and feet and then they would be crucified.

This threat claimed in the Koran does not exist in the Old Testament. It only exists in the Koran and it is an Islamic form of punishment. We are not talking about crucifixion but also in the cutting off of the hands and feet and then being crucified. This is an Islamic form of punishment not Egyptian. And according to the Old Testament which was recorded by those Jews of that Time. The Pharaoh did not threaten those Magicians at all. That threat is only made in the Koran.

Why do you not prove the Magicians were placed under such a threat other than using your Koran. The only source of information comes from the Old Testament and that was recorded by the Jews of that Time and they give a totally different account to the one made in the Koran.

Timur Khan you say: The bible omitting something does not prove the Quran is in error for mentioning what is left out in the bible. It simply is irrational to assume this, and you MUST prove it if you feel this is the case. You have yet to do that.

Starjade says: The Old Testament account of the Exodus was recorded by the Jews who lived in those Times and the Old Testament then is the source of true information not the Koran written over a thousand years later. It is not what the Bible has omitted by what the Koran is falsely claiming. The Koran has a different account that shows it is in error. The fact that the statements of the Old Testament are original accounts prove the Koran is in error.

Timur Khan you say: These two very simply points are the bases for your entire volumes of rambelings. Just deal with these points. I do not care about anything else, or your opinions, or who taught you, or what you did with yourself. Stay on topic!

Starjade says: If you Muslims are stuck on just this Sura 4:82 then the other errors that I have not yet mentioned are really going to make you curl up into a ball. I stay on topic of the conversational flow. The Koran is not giving a true account of the exodus of Moses and the Koran is claiming threats were made to those Magicians and yet the Pharaoh never made those threats as was recorded by those Jews of that Time. The Koran is therefore in error.

Whiles you may think the Koran is perfect you do not have my knowledge of the many errors that do exist in the Koran. The biggest error of course is Muhammad believed in Jesus and believed that Jesus was the Prophet that Jesus was claiming himself to be. 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the Prophet Jesus claimed himself to be.

But the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself to be is that very Prophet that Moses and Isaiah spoke about in their Prophecies.
As a Muslim you all know that is the very same Prophet that Muhammad is claiming himself to be whiles still believing Jesus is that Prophet. Now that is a whole other set of errors that no Muslim can explain away. So Sura 4:82 Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. The challenge of the Koran Sura 4:82 is in the finding of just one error and you have to be totally blind not to see that I have already mentioned many more than one and more then two and three errors found in the Koran and so as this thread is about the Sura 4:82 and the errors in the Koran then any error mentioned that exists in the Koran is on topic.

Clearly it seems that you are in no position to dispute these errors. Though I did note the good points that you make. You still do not grasp the fact that the Pharaoh did not threaten those magicians with any punishments they were not threatened with a cutting off of the Hands and feet and then crucifixion as the statements of the Koran claim. The Koran is in clear error in its text and its account of that Exodus as was recorded by those Jews who lived at those Times.

Cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides is an Islamic form of punishment. Here is a link to a list of Islamic punishments to show they are Islamic and not Egyptian.

http://www.islamic-council.org/lib/crime/all81-89/all81-89.html

http://www.islamic-council.org/lib/crime/all94-104/all94-104.html

http://www.louisville.edu/~b0sidi01/whatanissue.htm

Remember the Koran was written after Muhammad had died in 632. After the battle of Al Yamamah in 633 Umar inb al Khattab, who later became the second Caliph, said to the first Caliph Abu Bakir, that because of the loss in that battle they were in danger of losing the Koran as it was mainly enshrined in their memories. Aby Bakr recognised the danger and entrusted the task of writing out the Koran to Zayd ibn Thabit, who was the chief scribe that Muhammad had frequently dictated to during his lifetime. A final authorised text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph and this has remained the text of the Koran in use ever since.

Zayd ibn Thabit, was clearly versed in Islamic capital punishments and assumed the same for the Pharaoh. But the Pharaoh did not threaten the Magicians at all. It only claims that in the Koran. And it states and Islamic punishment not an Egyptian one. Historians will tell you that the Egyptian Pharaoh did not threaten those Magicians and at that Time they did not use the Islamic practice of cutting off hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body.

The Koran has been proven to be in error. But that is only one error and I mentioned many errors in this entire thread. Including some requested by Dr Maybe. So already proof exists here that the Koran did not come from God as stated very clearly by the Sura 4:82.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Qur'an Contradiction: Pharaoh's Magicians - Muslims or Rejectors of Faith?

The Muslims claim that the Quran is divinely dictated and contains no real contradictions. The Muslims deny that Muhammad had anything to do with the composition of the Quran apart from insuring its memorization, recitation and inscripturation. The author, they claim, is Allah Almighty.
Yet, anyone examining the Quran carefully will discover major discrepancies. For instance, the same event is narrated several times throughout the Quran yet never in the same exact manner. One will often find major verbal variations and contradictions in the parallel accounts of the same event.

One such example of a narration that is repeated several times which contains variations and contradictions is the story of Moses' confrontation with the Pharaoh and his magicians. Compare the following narrations carefully:

"Then after them We sent Moses with Our Signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they wrongfully rejected them: So see what was the end of those who made mischief. Moses said: ‘O Pharaoh! I am a messenger from the Lord of the Worlds,- One for whom it is right to say nothing but truth about Allah. Now have I come unto you (people), from your Lord, with a clear (Sign): So let the Children of Israel depart along with me.’ (Pharaoh) said: ‘If indeed thou hast come with a Sign, show it forth,- if thou tellest the truth.’ Then (Moses) threw his rod, and behold! it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)! And he drew out his hand, and behold! it was white to all beholders! Said the Chiefs of the people of Pharaoh: ‘This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed. His plan is to get you out of your land: then what is it ye counsel?’

They said: ‘Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while); and send to the cities men to collect- And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed.’ So there came the sorcerers to Pharaoh: They said, ‘Of course we shall have a (suitable) reward if we win!’ He said: ‘Yea, (and more),- for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person).’ They said: ‘O Moses! wilt thou throw (first), or shall we have the (first) throw?’ Said Moses: ‘Throw ye (first).’ So when they threw, they bewitched the eyes of the people, and struck terror into them: for they showed a great (feat of) magic. We revealed to Moses: ‘Throw (now) thy rod’:and behold! it swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake! Thus truth was confirmed, and all that they did was made of no effect.

So they were vanquished there and then, and turned about humiliated. But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration. Saying: ‘We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,- The Lord of Moses and Aaron.’ Said Pharaoh: ‘Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this is a trick which ye have planned in the city to drive out its people: but soon shall ye know (the consequences). Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you all.’ They said: ‘For us, We are but sent back unto our Lord: But thou dost wreak thy vengeance on us simply because we believed in the Signs of our Lord when they reached us! Our Lord! pour out on us patience and constancy, and take our souls unto Thee as Muslims (who bow to Thy Will)!’" S. 7:103-126
"And We showed Pharaoh all Our Signs, but he did reject and refuse. He said: ‘Hast thou come to drive us out of our land with thy magic, O Moses? But we can surely produce magic to match thine! So make a tryst between us and thee, which we shall not fail to keep - neither we nor thou - in a place where both shall have even chances.’ Moses said: ‘Your tryst is the Day of the Festival, and let the people be assembled when the sun is well up.’

So Pharaoh withdrew: He concerted his plan, and then came (back). Moses said to them: ‘Woe to you! Forge not ye a lie against Allah, lest He destroy you (at once) utterly by chastisement: the forger must suffer failure!’ So they disputed, one with another, over their affair, but they kept their talk secret. They said: ‘These two are certainly (expert) magicians: their object is to drive you out from your land with their magic, and to do away with your most cherished way. Therefore concert your plan, and then assemble in (serried) ranks. He wins (all along) today who gains the upper hand.’ They said: ‘O Moses! whether wilt thou that thou throw (first) or that we be the first to throw?’ He said, ‘Nay, throw ye first!’ Then behold their ropes and their rods - so it seemed to him on account of their magic - began to be in lively motion! So Moses conceived in his mind a (sort of) fear. We said: ‘Fear not! for thou hast indeed the upper hand: Throw that which is in thy right hand. Quickly will it swallow up that which they have faked: what they have faked is but a magician's trick: and the magician succeeds not, (no matter) where he goes.’

So the magicians were thrown down to prostration: they said, ‘We believe in the Lord of Aaron and Moses’. (Pharaoh) said: ‘Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely this must be your leader, who has taught you magic! be sure I will cut off your hands and feet on opposite sides, and I will have you crucified on trunks of palm-trees: so shall ye know for certain, which of us can give the more severe and the more lasting punishment!’ They said: ‘Never shall we prefer thee to what has come to us of the Clear Signs, Him Who created us! So decree whatever thou desirest to decree: for thou canst only decree (touching) the life of this world. For us, we have believed in our Lord: may He forgive us our faults, and the magic to which thou didst compel us: for Allah is Best and Most Abiding.’" S. 20:56-73

"(Pharaoh) said: ‘If thou takest any god other than me, I will certainly put thee in prison!’ (Moses) said: ‘Even if I showed you something clear (and) convincing?’ (Pharaoh) said: ‘Show it then, if thou tellest the truth!’ So (Moses) threw his rod, and behold, it was a serpent, plain (for all to see)! And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders! (Pharaoh) said to the Chiefs around him: ‘This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed: His plan is to get you out of your land by his sorcery; then what is it ye counsel?’ They said: ‘Keep him and his brother in suspense (for a while), and dispatch to the Cities heralds to collect- And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed.’ So the sorcerers were got together for the appointment of a day well-known, And the people were told: ‘Are ye (now) assembled?- That we may follow the sorcerers if they win?’ So when the sorcerers arrived, they said to Pharaoh: ‘Of course - shall we have a (suitable) reward if we win?’ He said: ‘Yea, (and more),- for ye shall in that case be (raised to posts) nearest (to my person).’ Moses said to them: ‘Throw ye- that which ye are about to throw!’ So they threw their ropes and their rods, and said: ‘By the might of Pharaoh, it is we who will certainly win!’ Then Moses threw his rod, when, behold, it straightway swallows up all the falsehoods which they fake! Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration, Saying: ‘We believe in the Lord of the Worlds, The Lord of Moses and Aaron.’ Said (Pharaoh): ‘Believe ye in Him before I give you permission? Surely he is your leader, who has taught you sorcery! But soon shall ye know! Be sure I will cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you all!’ They said: ‘No matter! For us, we shall but return to our Lord! Only, our desire is that our Lord will forgive us our faults, since we are the first to believe.’" S. 26:29-51

"Then after them sent We Moses and Aaron to Pharaoh and his chiefs with Our Signs. But they were arrogant: they were a wicked people. When the Truth did come to them from Us, they said: ‘This is indeed evident sorcery!’ Said Moses: ‘Say ye (this) about the Truth when it hath (actually) reached you? Is sorcery (like) this? But sorcerers will not prosper.’ They said: ‘Hast thou come to us to turn us away from the ways we found our fathers following,- in order that thou and thy brother may have greatness in the land? But not we shall believe in you!’ Said Pharaoh: ‘Bring me every sorcerer well versed.’ When the sorcerers came, Moses said to them: ‘Throw ye what ye (wish) to throw!’ When they had had their throw, Moses said: ‘What ye have brought is sorcery: Allah will surely make it of no effect: for Allah prospereth not the work of those who make mischief. And Allah by His Words doth prove and establish His Truth, however much the sinners may hate it!’ BUT NONE BELIEVED IN MOSES EXCEPT SOME OF THE CHILDREN OF HIS PEOPLE, because of the fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them; and certainly Pharaoh was mighty on the earth and one who transgressed all bounds. Moses said: ‘O MY PEOPLE! If ye do (really) believe in Allah, then in Him put your trust if ye submit (your will to His).’ They said: ‘In Allah do we put out trust. Our Lord! make us not a trial for those who practice oppression; And deliver us by Thy Mercy from those who reject (Thee).’" S. 10:75-86

Here is how different translations translate S. 10:83:
But NONE believed in Moses except some children of HIS people, because of the fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them ... Yusuf Ali

But NONE trusted Moses, save some scions of HIS people, (and they were) in fear of Pharaoh and their chiefs, that he would persecute them ... Pickthall

But NONE believed in Musa except the offspring of HIS people, on account of the fear of Firon and their chiefs, lest he should persecute them ... Shakir

But NONE believed in Mûsa (Moses) except the offspring of HIS people, because of the fear of Fir'aun (Pharaoh) and his chiefs, lest they should persecute them ... Hilali-Khan

No one believed in Moses except some young people OF HIS OWN TRIBE who were at the same time very afraid of the persecution of the Pharaoh and his people ... Muhammad Sarwar

Then NONE believed in Moses save a posterity of HIS people, through fear of Pharaoh and their chiefs, lest they should persecute them ... Abdul Majid Daryabadi

But NO ONE believed Moses, except [some] offspring [i.e., youths] among HIS people, for fear of Pharaoh and his establishment that they would persecute them ... Abul-Qasim Publishing House 1997
Only some offspring among HIS own folk believed in Moses because of fear for Pharaoh and his councillors, lest he might put them to some test ... T.B. Irving

So NO ONE believed in Moses, save a seed of HIS people, for fear of Pharaoh and their Council, that they would persecute them ... A.J. Arberry
But NONE believed in Moses, save a race of HIS own people, through fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs; lest he should afflict them ... E.H. Palmer
And NONE obeyed Moses save some youths from among HIS people, because of the fear of Pharaoh and their chiefs, lest he should persecute them ... Maulvi Sher Ali

After reading these accounts one is left wondering what exactly did Moses, the Pharaoh, and the magicians say to one another. Even apart from the verbal variations there is a major contradiction within these reports. According to Surahs 7, 20 and 26 Pharaoh's sorcerers repented and believed in the God of Moses and Aaron. One report even has them claiming to be Muslims. Yet, S. 10 says that none believed in Moses except his own people, namely the Israelites! So which is it? Did some of Pharaoh's magicians believe and repent? Or was there no one from Pharaoh's retinue who believed in the God of Moses and Aaron?
The problem doesn't end there. Just seven verses after the statement that none but a few Israelites believed in Moses, the author of the Qur'an forgot that statement when he reports Pharaoh's repentance and faith in the face of death (S. 10:90). Even without 10:83, this is a problem for itself, see this article. Certain, however, is that according to the Qur'an, Pharaoh's wife was a believer:

"So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Moses: ‘Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our messengers.’ Then the people of Pharaoh picked him up (from the river): (It was intended) that (Moses) should be to them an adversary and a cause of sorrow: for Pharaoh and Hámán and (all) their hosts were men of sin. The wife of Pharaoh said: '(Here is) joy of the eye, for me and for thee: slay him not. It may be that he will be use to us, or we may adopt him as a son.' And they perceived not (what they were doing)!" S. 28:7-9

"And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh: Behold she said: ‘O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong’;" S. 66:11
In fact, Muhammad praises Pharaoh's wife as being one of the few women who achieved perfection:

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari:
Allah's Apostle said, "Many amongst men attained perfection but amongst women none attained the perfection except Mary, the daughter of Imran and Asiya, the wife of Pharaoh. And the superiority of 'Aisha to other women is like the superiority of Tharid (i.e. an Arabic dish) to other meals." (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 57, Number 113)

Some have tried to explain away the apparent contradiction by implying that the phrase "His people" refers to the people of Pharaoh, i.e. that only a few Egyptians believed in Moses. Yet this translation makes little sense since this would mean that none of the Israelites believed save some of Pharaoh's own people! Furthermore, it is clear from the context that the nearest antecedent of the pronoun "His" is Moses, not Pharaoh which follows the pronoun. This is confirmed later on in the same passage by Moses' reference to "My people" (S. 10:84).

In the following, we present another example of parallel accounts containing major verbal variations:

"And remember We said: 'Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; and enter the gate prostrating (with humility), and say: "Forgive (us)"; We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good.'" S. 2:58

Wa-ith qulna odkhuloo hathihi alqaryata fakuloo minha haythu shi/tum raghadan waodkhuloo albaba sujjadan waqooloo hittatun naghfir lakum khatayakum wasanazeedu almuhsineena

"And remember it was said to them: 'Dwell in this town and eat therein as ye wish, but say the word of humility and enter the gate in a posture of humility: We shall forgive you your faults; We shall increase (the portion of) those who do good.'" S. 7:161

Wa-ith qeela lahumu oskunoo hathihi alqaryata wakuloo minha haythu shi/tum waqooloo hittatun waodkhuloo albaba sujjadan naghfir lakum khatee-atikum sanazeedu almuhsineena

Did Allah say enter or dwell in? Did he say eat of the plenty or simply eat? Did he command them to say the word of humility and then enter the gate prostrating, or did he command them to enter the gate in a posture of humility and say "forgiveness"? It seems that Allah can't recall his exact words to the Israelites.

A Muslim may argue that the same phenomenon exists within the Gospels. For instance, Matthew, Mark and Luke narrate the same account often with verbal variations. A Muslim using this argument would be guilty of a false analogy. Since Matthew, Mark and Luke were not written by the same author it would be normal to expect three different authors reporting the same event with verbal differences. For instance, one author may have wished to summarize an account, another to provide additional details, and yet another to write down the material in a topical arrangement as opposed to following a chronological sequence. Yet, since these differences do not change the meaning or significance of the event then the accuracy of the Gospels are not called into question but are completely trustworthy, especially when they are viewed in light of the writing methods adopted by historians of that time period. (See this article for more info.)

But this is not the case with the Quran. Muslims do not believe that the Quran was written by multiple authors. Rather, they believe that there was only one author, namely God. Yet, if God had dictated the Quran to Muhammad we would not expect to find major verbal variations and contradictions in these parallel accounts. Instead, we would expect that God would repeat the same event in exactly the same way. That this is not what we find only proves that the Quran is not from God, but is the work of multiple writers. This means that the final compilers of the Quran did a very poor job of editing the book since traces of these conflicting sources can still be seen today.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

In actual fact the Egyptian Pharaoh had total faith in his Magicians and the Old Testament proves that. This Pharaoh and Moses began their meeting in Exodus so let us hear the story briefly told by me at the point where Moses and Aaron went before that Pharaoh. As was recorded by the Jews who lived during those Times in the Old Testament itself.

Exodus Ch 7 v 10 and Aaron cast down his Rod and it became a Serpent. Then in V 11 the Pharaoh bid his Magicians to cast down their rods and their rods became Serpents also. But the rod of Aaron ate up the other Serpents starting this mind-blowing story. Pick up a Bible and read Exodus the entire statements are not many pages long but it will verify to you that my words are true showing that serious error that does exist in the Koran is really the whole of the Sura 7:124.

Then came the waters of the Nile turning Red as Blood. Exodus 7:22 the Pharaohs Magicians did similar. So the Pharaohs heart was still hardened. Then came the frogs. Ch 8 v 6. In Ch 8 v 6 the Pharaohs Magicians also called up frogs and so the Pharaohs heart was still hardened. The came the Lice Ch 8 v 17 and the Pharaohs Magicians tried to bring on lice Ch 8: v 18 to show they also could do as Moses. But they found they could no reproduce the effect and said unto the Pharaoh Ch 8 v 19. This is the finger of God.

Now that is when the Magicians of the Pharaoh realised that were Powerless against the Power of Moses. Then followed the Plague of flies but no further mention of those Magicians and then grievous Murrain to the cattle of Egypt only. Then from the dust of the furnace there was unleashed upon Egypt, The boils and blains upon man and beast. Ch 9 v 11 and Magicians could not stand against Moses, as they were afflicted.

God threatened Pestilence and sent Hail and Thunder. The God sent Locust then God sent 3 days of weird Darkness, which fell, across the land of Egypt. Then the first born of Egypt of man and beast were killed about midnight. Then the Pharaoh let those people go. Where they went to the Red Sea and God parted the Red sea in two and they walked across on the dry land to the wilderness of Shur and of Sin.

Meanwhile the Pharaoh began regrets and he then chased those people with all his men and chariots and they also went into the parting of the Red sea and the Lord thy God let the walls of the Red sea close and drowned them all including the Pharaoh.

At no Time in this Tale of that Exodus did the Pharaoh ever threaten his Magicians with death or with crucifixion or with the cutting off of hands and feet. That tale exists only in the Koran in the error of the Koran Sura 7: 124. Now do you see why the Sura 7:124 is an error in the Koran as it is not true as was documented by the Jews of that Time in the Old Testament. And if you doubt me then by all means do go get a Bible and read the Old Testament and you shall see that I speak the truth.

Now how long after the death of that Pharaoh did the Koran get written with that Sura 7:124 well here is that answer also. Muhammad’s followers were said to commit the text of the Koran to memory, and then as instructed by Muhammad, they were then put into writings, Muhammad died in 632 and after the battle of Al Yamamah in 633 Umar inb al Khattab, who later became the second Caliph, said to the first Caliph Abu Bakir, that because of the loss in that battle they were in danger of losing the Koran as it was mainly enshrined in their memories.

Aby Bakr recognised the danger and entrusted the task of writing out the Koran to Zayd ibn Thabit, who was the chief scribe that Muhammad had frequently dictated to during his lifetime. A final authorised text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph and this has remained the text of the Koran in use ever since. Still Muslims however claim that the contents of the Koran came from God through this Angel Gabriel.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

By the way I also am a web page designer and i collect HTML codes for obvious reasons.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Try being more concise in your repostes. I couldn't be bothered to wade through piles of garbage.
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Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.