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Crucifixion did take place in ancient Egypt. The Encarta Encylcopedia 2004 says so.
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Sam Shamouni, Jochen Katz and Ali Sina love to wrestle in mud, wearing nothing but bikinis.

Well hello again Dr Maybe i thought you had vanished. You are of course wrong the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides is Islamic and was never done in the Old or new Testaments. The encarta encyclopidia did not bother itself to do any research and will of course be ignorant to the reality and facts of these religios matters. It is rather like the Christians new Testament where they claim Jesus is that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and then they say Jesus was crucified when other Christian bibles say he died on a stake others a tree others a cross. It just depends on what data that encyclopedia researcher was looking at at the time. But modern day statements cannot be relied upon. The encarta is wrong. Niice try though it is a good thing that these matters are still on your mind.

I am about to drop a bombshell on Hanifan that i think may interest you. It may take a while to write out as it is complicated. But i shall simplify it. I have been doing a bit of researching myself these past few days and i have an error in the Koran that i want to see if you can explain away. Its a big error in the Koran as well. Almost as big as Muhammad believing in Jesus and 11 chapters of the Koran believing and glorifying Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus claimed himself to be. Which as you know is that same Prophet that Muhammad is now claiming him,self to be. Only this Time it is about Moses. I downloaded the Exodus statement of the Koran and saw it for myself.

You cannot trust modern day books especially those written by a Christian. The only real source of data can only come from the original manuscipts of the Old Testament. The new Testament is another religion and another matter as that is the Christians claim and persuation as to convincing people of their claims regarding the false Prophet Jesus.

Hanifan has already mentioned areas in the Bible where a close proximity to crucifixion exists. But those were of hangings on trees and not of the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body which is the form of executions mentioned in the Koran.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Well hello again Hanifan. Well now I have been doing some research on Hatshepsut. I was not aware that she was married to a Pharaoh at the Time she adopted Moses as you claimed. If that had been so then that would have been a good explanation. As you may know most records of Nefure Hatshepsut have been erased and defaced. But I did find that lineage most interesting. The dates of these events are still some what cloudy and require a more deeper research as most historians give different dates for certain events and so it is clear they don’t really know either. I am however still looking and may update at a later Time my findings.

As the complicated story goes the dates being uncertain and only approximates. Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1 was called Pharaoh but was co regent to Pharaoh Ahmosis who lived in Thebes in Memphis. The Pharaoh Ahmosis was the main ruler of Egypt and so Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. would only be the main ruling Pharaoh after the death of the Pharaoh Ahmosis.

Thutmoses 1 /Amenhotep 1. had heard the rumours of how troubles would come to Egypt from the Hebrew nation and so he ordered the deaths of all the first born sons to prevent that event from ever occurring. However oddly one year would pass and those sons of the Hebrew nation would be allowed to live and then the next year the first born was to die. So they alternated these deaths this way so as not to create more problems for them selves. Aaron the brother of Moses was born in the year that those first born were to be saved and Moses was born in the year that those first born were to die. So his mother placed him in a basket and set him lose to fate on the Nile. His sister followed the basket and saw the Pharaohs daughter Nefure discover the babe and she decided to keep the child and adopt it.

As far as I can see there is no evidence though that at this Time that Nefure was married as it claims in the Koran. So the Old Testament is correct in saying it was the daughter of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses even though the Pharaoh Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1 was only a co regent.

Nefure was the only surviving daughter of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. Nefure she convinced her father to make her little adopted child Moses his future heir. So Moses was set up to become the future King of all Egypt. Moses became known as Senmut which means mothers brother. It is a named derived from the tale of Osiris and Horus but I will not be talking about that. Historians studies show that Moses came to live in the palace at about 12 years Old about the same Time that his adopted Grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. became main emporer over the whole of Egypt. At this Time they had moved from the palace at Memphis where the Co regent ruled and went to Thebes where the main Palace was.

At about the age of 18 Moses was designated the future heir apparent with his mother Nefure as his regent. She was now given the additional royal name of “Hatshepsut” and was then referred to as Queen instead of princess. Once someone was designated as the future heir to the throne his inscriptions refer to him as “King”. Moses was elevated to this position of heir apparent when he was 24 years old. When Moses became about 33 years old he was designated as being the Crown Prince and became known as Thutmoses 11. The numbers after the Egyptian Kings names are simply designations given to them by Egyptologists to identify each succeeding person of the same name. When Moses was 40 he killed an Egyptian and so as history claims Moses had to flee Egypt.

To prevent the loss of the Crown to another family Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. who clearly was still alive otherwise Moses would have been crowned King Pharaoh. Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. married his daughter off to her younger half brother Thutmose who became called Thutmose the 11 and that was how Nefure Hatshepsut became married.

There are claims that the father of Nefure / Hatshepsut had died when she was 15 yet this cannot be true for Moses fled Egypt when he was 40 and history speaks of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. being alive at that Time. In fact if he had died then Moses would have been ruling Egypt as the emperor Pharaoh. But he was not that ruler of Egypt because his adopted grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. was still alive.

Of course records of these times are obscure but common sense clearly does indicate that Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. was alive and well long after Moses had become heir apparent. And even when he had fled Egypt.

There is no solid evidence that I have seen that claims that Nefure / Hatshepsut was married at the Time she found Moses. The Egyptian records of these times are annoyingly complicated and difficult for people to understand. In 1488 six years prior to her death all records of Nefure / Hatshepsut ceased.

So it does seem clear at this Time that the Koran claiming that it was the wife of the Pharaoh who adopted Moses is wrong. Had Nefure / Hatshepsut been married then her husband would have become that heir apparent by that marriage. Yet history says that it was Moses who became Heir apparent. And it does appear that Nefure had then to marry her half brother because Moses had fled Egypt.

As I have said I am still looking into this matter but it does seem clear that at the Time that the Pharaohs daughter found Moses she was not then married and so the Koran is in an understandable error. Especially with the way those Egyptians kept records. When Moses left Egypt he was replaced by another man who took the Egyptian Titles of Moses and became called Thutmose 11 prince of all Egypt. And we all know the rest of the story. As I have said I am still looking into this matter but it is clear the Koran is in error over claiming it was the Pharaohs wife who adopted Moses this was meaning Nefure / Hatshepsut and yet even her own father was only a co Regent Pharaoh. And only became the ruling Emperor when Moses was 12 that is twelve years after Nefure found and adopted Moses thus showing that he could not have died in 1526 as you suggest. The dates of history during these times are obscure however but logic does state that Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. lived a lot longer than historians realise. Of course there was some problem caused by Nefure Hatshepsut that caused people to want to obliterate her name from History making such dating of these Times difficult.

Still logic does go with the story that indicates Nefure was not married at the Time that she found Moses. Making the claim of the Koran to be in error. I will not let this matter drop until I have learned the truth one way or another. You did make a valid point of explanation regarding Nefure being married. But you have not proven that point to be a fact wheras the history of those Times does suggest that at the Time Nefure was not married. This matter needs some deeper researching. The dates of these events from History are unsound you yourself have quoted the death of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. as being 1526. Yet if Nefure had found Moses in 1525 when she was only 15 years old. Then it is a matter of just one year. Whiles history states that Moses was 12 years old when his grandfather Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. became ruling emperor Pharaoh of the whole of Egypt. Surely you can see the discrepancy that exists in those dates of the claimed death of Thutmoses 1 / Amenhotep 1. and the continuing history that then surrounds those Times.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

Starjade says: I downloaded the Exodus version in the Koran to see what was written and the way it was said. Due to this matter of the claim of the wife of the Pharaoh adopting Moses not his daughter. Then I found this statement amongst that data. This is the Korans version of the Time when Moses and Aaron had appeared before the Pharaoh and staffs were cast down that turned into snakes. I name these events as errors existing in the Koran. Because it was Aaron who cast down his staff not Moses.

Starjade says: The history of the Old Testament clearly states that Aaron was to be the Prophet of Moses and it was Aaron who threw the Staff down when it turned into the snake. Yet the Koran claims that it was Moses. Changing the Old Testaments original account of this event.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Tue Jan 18, 2005 6:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

Starjade says: I downloaded the Exodus version in the Koran to see what was written and the way it was said. Due to this matter of the claim of the wife of the Pharaoh adopting Moses not his daughter. Then I found this statement amongst that data. This is the Korans version of the Time when Moses and Aaron had appeared before the Pharaoh and staffs were cast down that turned into snakes. I name these events as errors existing in the Koran because it was Aaron who cast down his staff not Moses.

Starjade says: The history of the Old Testament clearly states that Aaron was to be the Prophet of Moses and it was Aaron who threw the Staff down when it turned into the snake. Yet the Koran claims that it was Moses. Changing the Old Testaments original account of this event.

Koranic statement.
Moses said: "Even if I bring you something manifest and convincing." Pharaoh said; "Bring it forth, then, if you are of the truthful!" So Moses threw his stick, and behold, it was a serpent, manifest. And he drew out his hand, and behold, it was white to all beholders! (Ch 26:30-33 Quran) Pharaohs amazement turned to terror. Fearing that his rule was in danger he addressed his advisors: These are two wizards who will strip you of your best traditions and drive you of the country with their magic. What do you advise?" they counseled Pharaoh to detain Moses and his brother while they summoned the cleverest magicians in the country. Then they too, could show their skills of magic and change sticks into serpents. In this way they sought to reduce the influence of Moses's miracles on the masses.

Pharaoh detained Moses and Aaron. He dispatched couriers all over the land to enlist the best magicians. He offered each successful magician a big reward, including appointment as a royal courtier. On the customary festival day, which attracted citizens from all over the Egyptian empire, Pharaoh arranged for a public contest between Moses and the magicians. The people came in droves as near before when they heard of the greatest contest ever between Pharaoh's many magicians and a single man who claimed to be a prophet. They had also heard of a baby who had once floated down the river Nile in a basket, landed on Pharaoh's palace grounds, been reared as a prince, and who later had fled for killing an Egyptian with a single blow.

Everyone was eager and excited to watch this great contest. Before it began, Moses arose. There was a hush in the huge crowd. Moses addressed the magicians. "Woe unto you, if you invent a lie against Allah by calling His miracles magic and by not being honest with the Pharaoh. Woe unto you, if you do not know the difference between the truth and falsehood. Allah will destroy you with His punishment, for he who lies against Allah fails miserably."

Moses had spoke sincerely and made the magicians think. But they were overwhelmed by their greed for money and glory. They hoped to impress the people with their magic and to expose Moses as a fraud and a cheat.

Moses asked the magicians to perform first. They threw their magical objects down on the ground. Their staffs and ropes took the forms of wriggling serpents while the crowd watched in amazement. Pharaoh and his men applauded loudly. Then Moses threw his staff. It began to wriggle and became an enormous serpent. The people stood up, craning their necks for a better view. Pharaoh and his men sat silently as, one by one, Moses's huge serpent swallowed all the snakes. Moses bent to pick it up, and it became a staff in his hand.

The crowd rose like a great wave, shouting and screaming with excitement. A wonder like this had never been seen before! On witnessing the power of Moses, the magicians prostrated themselves to Allah, declaring: "We believe in the Lord of Moses and Aaron." Pharaoh was angry and began plotting his next move. He charged that the demonstration had been arranged secretly between Moses and the magicians. He demanded that the magicians confess to their scheme, threatening them with death. They refused to denounce Allah and stuck to their sincerity of their belief. No longer hiding his cruel nature, Pharaoh threatened to cut off their hands and feet and to crucify them on the trunks of palm trees as an example to his subjects.

Now that is the Korans Exodus version and this is the Old Testaments statement. I have placed this here with reason so any Muslim can use it for reference and see in that reading many more discrepancies that exist in the Koran. Even down to the plagues.

6:26: These are that Aaron and Moses, to whom the LORD said, Bring out the children of Israel from the land of Egypt according to their armies.
6:27: These are they which spake to Pharaoh king of Egypt, to bring out the children of Israel from Egypt: these are that Moses and Aaron.
6:28: And it came to pass on the day when the LORD spake unto Moses in the land of Egypt,
6:29: That the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, I am the LORD: speak thou unto Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say unto thee.
6:30: And Moses said before the LORD, Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips, and how shall Pharaoh hearken unto me?
7:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
7:2: Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.
7:3: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
7:4: But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.
7:5: And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.
7:6: And Moses and Aaron did as the LORD commanded them, so did they.
7:7: And Moses was fourscore years old, and Aaron fourscore and three years old, when they spake unto Pharaoh.
7:8: And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,


7:9: When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent.
7:10: And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
7:11: Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
7:12: For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

7:13: And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
7:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.
7:15: Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou shalt stand by the river's brink against he come; and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thine hand.
7:16: And thou shalt say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou wouldest not hear.[/color]
7:17: Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood.
7:18: And the fish that is in the river shall die, and the river shall stink; and the Egyptians shall lothe to drink of the water of the river.
7:19: And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
7:20: And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
7:21: And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.
7:22: And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
7:23: And Pharaoh turned and went into his house, neither did he set his heart to this also.
7:24: And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.
7:25: And seven days were fulfilled, after that the LORD had smitten the river.
8:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, Go unto Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
8:2: And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
8:3: And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
8:4: And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.
8:5: And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt.
8:6: And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt.
8:7: And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
8:8: Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron, and said, Intreat the LORD, that he may take away the frogs from me, and from my people; and I will let the people go, that they may do sacrifice unto the LORD.
8:9: And Moses said unto Pharaoh, Glory over me: when shall I intreat for thee, and for thy servants, and for thy people, to destroy the frogs from thee and thy houses, that they may remain in the river only?
8:10: And he said, To morrow. And he said, Be it according to thy word: that thou mayest know that there is none like unto the LORD our God.
8:11: And the frogs shall depart from thee, and from thy houses, and from thy servants, and from thy people; they shall remain in the river only.
8:12: And Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh: and Moses cried unto the LORD because of the frogs which he had brought against Pharaoh.
8:13: And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields.
8:14: And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank.
8:15: But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
8:16: And the LORD said unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch out thy rod, and smite the dust of the land, that it may become lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
8:17: And they did so; for Aaron stretched out his hand with his rod, and smote the dust of the earth, and it became lice in man, and in beast; all the dust of the land became lice throughout all the land of Egypt.
8:18: And the magicians did so with their enchantments to bring forth lice, but they could not: so there were lice upon man, and upon beast.
8:19: Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
8:20: And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh; lo, he cometh forth to the water; and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
8:21: Else, if thou wilt not let my people go, behold, I will send swarms of flies upon thee, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thy houses: and the houses of the Egyptians shall be full of swarms of flies, and also the ground whereon they are.
8:22: And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms of flies shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I am the LORD in the midst of the earth.
8:23: And I will put a division between my people and thy people: to morrow shall this sign be.
8:24: And the LORD did so; and there came a grievous swarm of flies into the house of Pharaoh, and into his servants' houses, and into all the land of Egypt: the land was corrupted by reason of the swarm of flies.
8:25: And Pharaoh called for Moses and for Aaron, and said, Go ye, sacrifice to your God in the land.
8:26: And Moses said, It is not meet so to do; for we shall sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians to the LORD our God: lo, shall we sacrifice the abomination of the Egyptians before their eyes, and will they not stone us?
8:27: We will go three days' journey into the wilderness, and sacrifice to the LORD our God, as he shall command us.
8:28: And Pharaoh said, I will let you go, that ye may sacrifice to the LORD your God in the wilderness; only ye shall not go very far away: intreat for me.
8:29: And Moses said, Behold, I go out from thee, and I will intreat the LORD that the swarms of flies may depart from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people, to morrow: but let not Pharaoh deal deceitfully any more in not letting the people go to sacrifice to the LORD.
8:30: And Moses went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the LORD.
8:31: And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one.
8:32: And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.
9:1: Then the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh, and tell him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
9:2: For if thou refuse to let them go, and wilt hold them still,
9:3: Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain.
9:4: And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children's of Israel.
9:5: And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land.
9:6: And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one.
9:7: And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.
9:8: And the LORD said unto Moses and unto Aaron, Take to you handfuls of ashes of the furnace, and let Moses sprinkle it toward the heaven in the sight of Pharaoh.
9:9: And it shall become small dust in all the land of Egypt, and shall be a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast, throughout all the land of Egypt.
9:10: And they took ashes of the furnace, and stood before Pharaoh; and Moses sprinkled it up toward heaven; and it became a boil breaking forth with blains upon man, and upon beast.
9:11: And the magicians could not stand before Moses because of the boils; for the boil was upon the magicians, and upon all the Egyptians.
9:12: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
9:13: And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
9:14: For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.
9:15: For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.
9:16: And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.
9:17: As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
9:18: Behold, to morrow about this time I will cause it to rain a very grievous hail, such as hath not been in Egypt since the foundation thereof even until now.
9:19: Send therefore now, and gather thy cattle, and all that thou hast in the field; for upon every man and beast which shall be found in the field, and shall not be brought home, the hail shall come down upon them, and they shall die.
9:20: He that feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses:
9:21: And he that regarded not the word of the LORD left his servants and his cattle in the field.
9:22: And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch forth thine hand toward heaven, that there may be hail in all the land of Egypt, upon man, and upon beast, and upon every herb of the field, throughout the land of Egypt.
9:23: And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
9:24: So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
9:25: And the hail smote throughout all the land of Egypt all that was in the field, both man and beast; and the hail smote every herb of the field, and brake every tree of the field.
9:26: Only in the land of Goshen, where the children of Israel were, was there no hail.
9:27: And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD is righteous, and I and my people are wicked.
9:28: Intreat the LORD (for it is enough) that there be no more mighty thunderings and hail; and I will let you go, and ye shall stay no longer.
9:29: And Moses said unto him, As soon as I am gone out of the city, I will spread abroad my hands unto the LORD; and the thunder shall cease, neither shall there be any more hail; that thou mayest know how that the earth is the LORD's.
9:30: But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.
9:31: And the flax and the barley was smitten: for the barley was in the ear, and the flax was bolled.
9:32: But the wheat and the rie were not smitten: for they were not grown up.
9:33: And Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh, and spread abroad his hands unto the LORD: and the thunders and hail ceased, and the rain was not poured upon the earth.
9:34: And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
9:35: And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.
10:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
10:2: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.
10:3: And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.
10:4: Else, if thou refuse to let my people go, behold, to morrow will I bring the locusts into thy coast:
10:5: And they shall cover the face of the earth, that one cannot be able to see the earth: and they shall eat the residue of that which is escaped, which remaineth unto you from the hail, and shall eat every tree which groweth for you out of the field:
10:6: And they shall fill thy houses, and the houses of all thy servants, and the houses of all the Egyptians; which neither thy fathers, nor thy fathers' fathers have seen, since the day that they were upon the earth unto this day. And he turned himself, and went out from Pharaoh.
10:7: And Pharaoh's servants said unto him, How long shall this man be a snare unto us? let the men go, that they may serve the LORD their God: knowest thou not yet that Egypt is destroyed?
10:8: And Moses and Aaron were brought again unto Pharaoh: and he said unto them, Go, serve the LORD your God: but who are they that shall go?
10:9: And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD.
10:10: And he said unto them, Let the LORD be so with you, as I will let you go, and your little ones: look to it; for evil is before you.
/FONT> 10:11: Not so: go now ye that are men, and serve the LORD; for that ye did desire. And they were driven out from Pharaoh's presence.
10:12: And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the land of Egypt for the locusts, that they may come up upon the land of Egypt, and eat every herb of the land, even all that the hail hath left.
10:13: And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning, the east wind brought the locusts.
10:14: And the locusts went up over all the land of Egypt, and rested in all the coasts of Egypt: very grievous were they; before them there were no such locusts as they, neither after them shall be such.
10:15: For they covered the face of the whole earth, so that the land was darkened; and they did eat every herb of the land, and all the fruit of the trees which the hail had left: and there remained not any green thing in the trees, or in the herbs of the field, through all the land of Egypt.
10:16: Then Pharaoh called for Moses and Aaron in haste; and he said, I have sinned against the LORD your God, and against you.
10:17: Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only.
10:18: And he went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the LORD.
10:19: And the LORD turned a mighty strong west wind, which took away the locusts, and cast them into the Red sea; there remained not one locust in all the coasts of Egypt.
10:20: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
10:21: And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
10:22: And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
10:23: They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days: but all the children of Israel had light in their dwellings.
10:24: And Pharaoh called unto Moses, and said, Go ye, serve the LORD; only let your flocks and your herds be stayed: let your little ones also go with you.
10:25: And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the LORD our God.
10:26: Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the LORD our God; and we know not with what we must serve the LORD, until we come thither.
10:27: But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
10:28: And Pharaoh said unto him, Get thee from me, take heed to thyself, see my face no more; for in that day thou seest my face thou shalt die.
10:29: And Moses said, Thou hast spoken well, I will see thy face again no more.
11:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Yet will I bring one plague more upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence: when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.
11:2: Speak now in the ears of the people, and let every man borrow of his neighbour, and every woman of her neighbour, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold.
11:3: And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.
11:4: And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
11:5: And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6: And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.
11:7: But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.
11:8: And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.
11:9: And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.
11:10: And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
12:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
12:2: This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
12:3: Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
12:4: And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
12:5: Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
12:6: And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
12:7: And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
12:8: And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
12:9: Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
12:10: And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
12:11: And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD's passover.
12:12: For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
12:13: And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
12:14: And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.
12:15: Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
12:16: And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.
12:17: And ye shall observe the feast of unleavened bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore shall ye observe this day in your generations by an ordinance for ever.
12:18: In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
12:19: Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.
12:20: Ye shall eat nothing leavened; in all your habitations shall ye eat unleavened bread.
12:21: Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
12:22: And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
12:23: For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you.
12:24: And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
12:25: And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
12:26: And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
12:27: That ye shall say, It is the sacrifice of the LORD's passover, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt, when he smote the Egyptians, and delivered our houses. And the people bowed the head and worshipped.
12:28: And the children of Israel went away, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
12:29: And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.
12:30: And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
12:31: And he called for Moses and Aaron by night, and said, Rise up, and get you forth from among my people, both ye and the children of Israel; and go, serve the LORD, as ye have said.
12:32: Also take your flocks and your herds, as ye have said, and be gone; and bless me also.
12:33: And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
12:34: And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
12:35: And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
12:36: And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.
12:37: And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
12:38: And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.
12:39: And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.
12:40: Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.
12:41: And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
12:42: It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
12:43: And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
12:44: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
12:45: A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
12:46: In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
12:47: All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
12:48: And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
12:49: One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
12:50: Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
12:51: And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
13:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
13:2: Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.
13:3: And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.
13:4: This day came ye out in the month Abib.
13:5: And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.
13:6: Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
13:7: Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
13:8: And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
13:9: And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
13:10: Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.
13:11: And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,
13:12: That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD's.
13:13: And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
13:14: And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:
13:15: And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.
13:16: And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.
13:17: And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:
13:18: But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
13:19: And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.
13:20: And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness.
13:21: And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
13:22: He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.
14:1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
14:2: Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baal-zephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.
14:3: For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.
14:4: And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.
14:5: And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
14:6: And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him:
14:7: And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.
14:8: And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.
14:9: But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pi-hahiroth, before Baal-zephon.
14:10: And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD.
14:11: And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?
14:12: Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
14:13: And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
14:14: The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
14:15: And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
14:16: But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.
14:17: And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
14:18: And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
14:19: And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:
14:20: And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.
14:21: And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
14:22: And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
14:23: And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
14:24: And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,
14:25: And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.
14:26: And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.
14:27: And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.
14:28: And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.
14:29: But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
14:30: Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:24 pm; edited 3 times in total

Seems to me that the Muslims congregations have been silenced by the Doomsday prophet Starjade eh ? I did say in the beginnings that you should not underestimate me. You are powerless against my God given Revelations. Now go and moan at your Imams and dare them to come online and explain away these errors.

And what about you Dr Maybe you kept on requesting that I give you a list of errors and when I did you did not dare to reply. Perhaps that was the wise. You were too confident which is never the wise when dealing with the real Doomsday Prophet Starjade. So are you all becoming Egyptologists then eh? Its amazing what you can find out when you go looking. I did say in the beginning that Muhammad meaning no disrespect is a false prophet and certainly not that specific Prophet that he has claimed himself to be.

But nobody on this Planet is in any position to dispute the fact that I am that very specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and as you have all seen with your own eyes i have and can back my mouth up on that claim and prove my word is true.

So already I have shown many errors exist in the Koran that you have not been able to dispute. Proving that by the Sura 4:82 the Koran did not come from God as Muslims have been led to believe and that shows you that Muhammad is presumtuous to think he could speak in Gods name and that means that the God you give your worship to is a God of Muhammads imagination. And so sayeth the Lord King Starjade.

Now surely you would see why i then say that is your Blasphemy and the Laws of Islam that I have invoked insist that you reject the Koran and the word of Muhammad or do you prefer to follow false Prophets and ignore the Laws of Islam for your own personal conveniance.

I shall of course give my regards to Ameena for you Hanifan and post your defending comment to show how you attempted to defend her statement. Of course you realise that i shall be giving those Muslims also a lesson on Egyptology myself after all thousands of Muslims do keep an eye on that forum where Ameena had posted her words. They shirked my challenges a long Time ago when they also lost against the much loved Doomsday Prophet Starjade. But now and again just like Ameena they get a bout of confidence after they thought for a while. But as you see my word is true and so they know they are powerless but just cannot believe or face it. Reality can be so harsh.

Now this Moses casting his rod as it says in the Koran against Testimonies a thousand years older than the Koran which say it was Aaron is just impossible to escape isnt it. And when you read that Exodus story from the Old Testament against the account from the Koran woe and behold you see even more errors for you know the Korans words and see they are not the same. Someone has been decietful. The Old Testament was around a thousand years before the Koran and the writers of the Koran tried to re write History with a false account. Now the real Doomsday prophet has turned up and exposed those lies and there is nothing that anyone can do about that is there. If there is then bring them online and we shall see how they do against the Doomsday prophet Starjade. better still go get your Imams online and we shall see how they react when they get a religious education from the Doomsday Prophet Starjade. I dont think any of you will ever forget the days of my visitation but think on the bright side at least now you can go wind those blasphemous Jews up for they knew of my existance since 1995 and they broke their Covenant with the Living God. That is an even worse Blasphemy, just think about that fact and what my thoughts of this world must be.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

Well I would have thought that someone might have said something. I do hear that continuing sound of Silence. I trust that you are examining the things that I have said it is all Egyptian history. You should never just look at one source as some folk do not bother to look deeper. I did try to find the truth in a way I had hoped you might even be right just so you could disprove at least one of those 500 errors found to be in the Koran but sadly it is not true is it. Imagine what it must have been like for Zayd ibn Thabit, who was the chief scribe that Muhammad had frequently dictated to during his lifetime to get that data to write out the Koran how could he have known eh? He does not have the worlds data at his fingertips as we all do. But you all know what the Sura 4:82 says: Do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein.

I also downloaded the entire Exodus story written in the Koran and read it all last night and I am not a happy person from the things that I have read. More errors. Ch 28:25-28 the claim that Moses was immersed in the glorious book of Allah. Said as if it was the Koran he was reading which we all know could not be true for the Korans final authorised text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph and this has remained the text of the Koran in use ever since. Written long after Moses walked this earth and long after Muhammad had left this earth. I do not consider it likely to be the Old Testament. Islamic monotheism could not have existed prior to Muhammad as he started all this Islamic stuff off.

And this claim that it was Moses who cast down that staff when it was Aaron not Moses who cast down that staff. Even the tale of that event is not true but has been changed with a totally different version.

And another error in the Koran is about Samiri a man inclined towards evil the Koran says: Ch 6:151-152. There it claims that it was Samiri who fashioned the Golden calf. (But according to the Old Testament it was in fact Aaron the brother of Moses who fashioned that Golden Calf to appease the people). And then the Koran said Samiri said that he took a handful of dust from the hoof print of the messenger Gabriel’s horse. Again not true and I have said before that this Gabriel originated as a dream that Daniel had whiles in a deep sleep and Daniel only described a man not an Angel. Gabriel was a figment of Luke’s imagination. The Angels of the Living God of the Old Testament did not have names. I have met astral denizens that you would call Angels they do have incredible Power far beyond mine own and yet to this day I still do not know what they are called as their names are unknown. Mankind is the one that invents names for things they are claiming to be Angels.

The Old Testaments Exodus 32:
32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
32:2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
32:3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
32:4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
32:5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
32:6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
32:8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
32:15 And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
32:16 And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God, graven upon the tables.
32:17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said unto Moses, There is a noise of war in the camp.
32:18 And he said, It is not the voice of them that shout for mastery, neither is it the voice of them that cry for being overcome: but the noise of them that sing do I hear.
32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount.
32:20 And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strewed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it.
32:21 And Moses said unto Aaron, What did this people unto thee, that thou hast brought so great a sin upon them?
32:22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief.
32:23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
32:24 And I said unto them, Whosoever hath any gold, let them break it off. So they gave it me: then I cast it into the fire, and there came out this calf.
32:25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies:)
32:26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD's side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
32:29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves today to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.
32:30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
32:34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.
32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

Starjuade says: I write this text to show you all that the Old Testament which was written by those Jews at those Ancient Times and it does say that it was Aaron who forged that Golden Calf. Read what has been said then compare notes with what is said in the Koran. The Koran is in error. Few Muslims would know if they only read the Koran and have no reason to read the Old Testament but in reading Just the Koran you have led yourselves open to deceptions.

Sura 4:82 do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would find much discrepancy therein.

The Koran Ch 2:60-61. This is a claim in the Koran that God directed Moses to lead those Jews to the New Promised land and the Koran claims that this new Promised land was Palestine. That again is not true at all. Even Moses did not know where this new promised Land would be. And those Jews built themselves a Golden Calf and so the Living Gods anger blazed and he cursed the Jews to wander around in the desert until everyone of that generation died. Only their descendants would see that Promised land. That was why Moses did not go into the new Promised Land because he was of that generation. The present lands of Israel are not Palestine. Even though they have invaded some of it. The Pharaoh the Plagues the Golden calf is all spoken with error and it all exists right there in the Koran for all to see.

It may interest you to know that even though the Jews do live in the present lands of Israel that land is not permanent it is only until a Time indefinite. That does not mean forever but until a Time foretold to exist in the Future when a Prophet will come and gather up all those Jews from the four corners of the globe and this Prophesied Prophet will lead those Jews to a new land. That new Land will arrive in the South Eastern Atlantic Basin next to Africa on that future Apocalyptic day. That is why the Prophesied Prophet has advised those Jews to sell off the lands of Israel for larger land in Africa where they must build that Third Temple and go and live in it whiles they wait for that land and this Third Temple must be a Biosphere because a 900km explosion blasted out of this Planet blowing the Arctic Circle and the whole of Alaska into outer-space. The Toxic fumes of this explosion filled up inside this Planet suffocating every oxygen breathing life-form that lives here. You see that Prophesied Prophet came from that future Time to this Past Time and saw that event and that is why he is able to save those people from that disaster. But of course the Jews being a blasphemous people did not like the idea of selling off those lands of Israel and they had their own ideas of what and where that Third Temple should be. That breaking of the Covenant that they had with the Living God is what will make those stupid blasphemous Jews Extinct.

Of course you will not know of these things at all because Muhammad sure as hell is not that Prophet and this future apocalyptic knowledge is something that he could never be aware of. But I sure as Hell am aware or these things because as I have pointed out, I am that very specific Prophet and nobody on this Planet is in any position to prove otherwise. Many have already come before you who had powerful religious knowledge and they all tried to dispute my claims and my statements. But they all failed every one of them. You Hanifan have even seen me dare you to try. I am sure you realise by now that I am someone who is prepared to back my mouth up and defend my statements. No ordinary man could prove to you in front of your face that the Koran did not come from God and yet before your very eyes this is something that I have already done and you can see that you are all Powerless against my God given Revelations. No matter what religion you followed.

Now my reasons for bringing these points to matter is because I am a Saviour that is what I do. It is what I was born to do. No Golden Calf in any form is going to stand in my way. My Revelations are lifesaving to potentially millions even billions of people who will die otherwise on that fated future apocalyptic day. That is my only reasoning.

But for you who tried to defend Islam and that Golden Calf the Koran what could be your reasons other than protecting the Ego of a man who is proven to be a false Prophet. Your very religious beliefs will get you and millions of millions like you killed. I cannot feel that pity for blasphemy according to the Living Gods law is punishable by death and be sure that fate is sealed. If you read the Old Testament then you will know that long awaited Prophet was only coming here to save those descendants of Abraham. Nobody else is expected to be on that Prophets agenda. Even though I did try and save them also. But if they break their Covenant well then just who could I save for who else could believe such an unbelievable story. So if you want to worship a stone then do as you please. But think of the fate of those who worshipped the Golden Calf and then try and think for a while with my mind. And what you think the Living God would expect me to do.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:44 pm; edited 3 times in total

Impatient, aren't you, Starjade? One of the many charecteristics of prophethood that you display!

I'm not a full time propigator, just a few hours free a week. So immense floods of verbiage are likely to be ignored rather than sifted for sense. You'd do better keeping your pearls of wisdom short and simple. Just a word of advice

I'll get back to you later

_________________
Verily, I have turned my face towards Him Who has created the heavens and the earth 'hanifa', and I am not of the idolators.

Hanifan you say: Impatient, aren't you, Starjade? One of the many charecteristics of prophethood that you display!

Starjade says: Yes sometimes I am impatient I like things done but on other matters my patience is astonishing.

Hanifan you say: I'm not a full time propigator, just a few hours free a week.

Starjade says: Its OK I have the patience to await a reply. Take your Time. And may I remind you that you once got impatient not that long ago waiting for a reply from me. I do have to go and chew the ass of a very abusive Muslim who cringes in fear at the name of Starjade so its OK. I do write on many forums and many of those conversations have been pending replies.

Hanifan you say: So immense floods of verbiage are likely to be ignored rather than sifted for sense. You'd do better keeping your pearls of wisdom short and simple. Just a word of advice. I'll get back to you later.

Thousands of year’s people have waited for me to arrive and then they don’t want to hear what I have to say, especially when it contradicts their beliefs. To moan at the length of what was said is a bit unjust as if I could reply in just a few words. I do try and keep things simple. But sometimes a longer explanation is important. You should get a hard copy (a print out) of these conversations to read at leisure as I do. They really are a damn good read. Better than a book as this is reality Time. Plus you can then give a copy to another to boggle their minds as well. I know I am a prolific writer, and what I say makes mind-boggling sense. At least my conversations are not boring.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

It would appear that you have failed to read the article properly. If you did, it show, using Christian historical sources, that crucifiction was indeed used in ancient Egypt. For example, the Smith's Bible Dictionary says under Crucifixion:

Crucifixion was in used among the Egyptians, Ge 40:19; the Carthaginians, the Persians, Es 7:10; the Assyrians, Scythains, Indians, Germans, and from the earliest times among the Greeks and Romans. Whether this mode of execution was known to the ancient Jews is a matter of dispute. Probably the Jews borrowed it from the Romans. It was unanimously considered the most horrible form of death.

And The New International Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that (Under 'Cross'):

Crucifixion was one of the most cruel and barbarous forms of death known to man. It was practiced, especially in the times of war, by the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Egyptians, and later by the Romans. So dreaded was it that even in the pre-Christian era, the cares and troubles of the life were often compared to a cross.

_________________
La ilaha illah-l-Lahu wa la na'bdu illa lyyah, mukhlasina la-hudeena wa law kariha-l-kafirun.
There are no gods besides Allah and we worship none but him with sincere devotion, even though the kafir dislike it.

Starjade wrote:
Bahagia wrote:
The subject of crucifixion in ancient Egypt has been covered thoroughly at the following link: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/crucify.html

Starjade says: Well thankyou for that link Bahagia. It does confirm the Koran speaks of Crucifixion of which Dr Maybe is in denial. The Old Testament confirms that no threats were made to the Magicians of the Pharaoh who had total confidence in them.


Bahagia you say: It would appear that you have failed to read the article properly. If you did, it show, using Christian historical sources, that crucifiction was indeed used in ancient Egypt. For example, the Smith's Bible Dictionary says under Crucifixion:

Crucifixion was in used among the Egyptians, Ge 40:19; the Carthaginians, the Persians, Es 7:10; the Assyrians, Scythains, Indians, Germans, and from the earliest times among the Greeks and Romans. Whether this mode of execution was known to the ancient Jews is a matter of dispute. Probably the Jews borrowed it from the Romans. It was unanimously considered the most horrible form of death.

Starjade says: I do have my Time taxed and I did not read all this article as it clearly was Islamic and therefore biosed. But we can end that argument real easy. Why don’t you point out exactly where in the Old Testament which was written by those Jews at those Times where you Muslims claim that those Magicians were threatened with death or punishments or having their hands and feet cut off on either side and then crucified.

It is a fact that those Magicians were not threatened and were not put to death as the Koran a book written over a thousand years later claims. As for when the first man was crucified in my view that really is irrelevant. And as the Old Testament was written first then the task is to find where in the Old Testament there is any case of anyone who was threatened with or done to with the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucified. There is no such punishment existing in the Old Testament that form of punishment is Islamic. The error is really in the fact that those Magicians were not threatened killed or crucified. The Koran claims they were but the only real source of that information comes from the Old Testament. So point out where it says in the Old Testament that those magicians were threatened in any way whatsoever with having their hand and feet cut off on opposite sides and then crucified. That is where you should be proving your statements not from some Christians or Muslims who lived thousands of years later.

Bahagia you say: And The New International Dictionary Of The Bible confirms that (Under 'Cross'): Crucifixion was one of the most cruel and barbarous forms of death known to man. It was practiced, especially in the times of war, by the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Egyptians, and later by the Romans. So dreaded was it that even in the pre-Christian era, the cares and troubles of the life were often compared to a cross.
Starjade says: And even if crucifixion did exist during those Times the fact is that those magicians were not ever threatened by that Pharaoh. It only claims that in the Koran. But the Koran is not the source of that data the Old Testament is. The Koran is just another mans version of that Old Testament statement but the Koran invents its own words and then insists that only it is true cos the writer of the Koran says so.

Starjade says: It is not just a matter of crucifixion is it. It is a matter of a specific cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then being crucified. That is an Islamic form of punishment still used today. Show where such a threat exists in the Old Testament. Now if a Muslim or Christian claims that these things existed and were used by who so ever they say they are used by such as the Egyptians and that Pharaoh. That is not proof and not any kind of evidence that those Magicians were threatened. In fact the Old Testament clearly shows that the Magicians were not threatened by that Pharaoh. Whereas the Koran claims they were and yet the Koran is already known to be full of errors lies and discrepancies showing its word is not trustworthy.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/newworldtranslation/crucifixion.htm

The original scholar who mentioned this Crucifixion thing did not realise at that Time or at least did not mention. That those Magicians were not ever put to death nor were they threatened with the cutting off of the hands and feet and then crucified. Now why not produce evidence that the Egyptians would cut off the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucified the body. As that was this form of crucifixion that the Koran claims occurred to those magicians.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

I see. You're saying that because the Qur'an differs from the Torah in one detail, that automatically makes it incorrect. For such a statement to be true, we have to assume a number of things: -

1.      That the bible is perfect and inerrant in every way.
Given the many contradictions, inaccuracies and errors which exist in the bible, this statement is obviously false.

2.      That the Torah as we have it today has not been corrupted or altered in any way.
Of course, this isn't true - unless you want to believe the Moses produced his own obituary and wrote a historical account of kings who lived after his death. This is just one of the many cases of correuption evident in the old testament that renders it unsuitable as a basis for criticising other texts.

3.      That the Torah in our possession today is complete.
Given the history of the writing, loss and rewriting of the Torah throughout history, this is highly unlikely especially given that the oldest manuscripts available today are dated at over a thousand years after Moses' death. For all we know, this account of the magicians repenting to Allah and being subsequently threatened by the Pharoah could well have appeared in the original Torah. Without the original manuscripts, you cannot say for certain whether this is true or not.

These three examples alone show how flawed your criticism is - no unbiased scholar could ever accept your methodology.

In order to prove that the Quran is wrong and the Bible is correct, you will have to provide solid, unbiased proof of this. Simply saying that the Qur'an is wrong just because the Bible says differently is unacceptable.

The cutting of hands was also a punishment used in ancient Egypt.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/law.htm

The Pharaoh himself might very well decide the most important criminal cases, or at other times he might appoint a special commission with full authority to pass judgement. Depending on the severity of the case, being exiled to Nubia or the Western Oasis, or sent to to labor in the distant mines or quarries was not uncommon. Some crimes were punished with mutilation consisting of cutting off a hand, tongue, nose or ears. In extreme cases, capital punishment was inflicted by implement on a stake, burning alive, drowning or decapitation. Because the guilty had violated Ma'at, it was also assumed the individual would suffer failure, poverty, sickness, blindness or deafness, with the final settlement awaiting in the Court of the Dead.

And even if this punishment wasn't specifcally mentioned in the Bible, it doesn't mean that it never happened for the reasons I (and others) have already given.
_________________
La ilaha illah-l-Lahu wa la na'bdu illa lyyah, mukhlasina la-hudeena wa law kariha-l-kafirun.
There are no gods besides Allah and we worship none but him with sincere devotion, even though the kafir dislike it.

Bahagia you said: I see. You're saying that because the Qur'an differs from the Torah in one detail, that automatically makes it incorrect.

Starjade says: The Sura 4:82 and the many errors existing in the Koran proves the Koran to be incorrect and if the writers of the Koran want to steal away a story from another peoples then at least quote the right words instead of inventing new ones.

Bahagia you said:
For such a statement to be true, we have to assume a number of things: -
1That the bible is perfect and inerrant in every way.
Given the many contradictions, inaccuracies and errors which exist in the bible, this statement is obviously false.

Starjade says: There are errors in the Bible due to interference by the Christians but the story of the Old Testament is still sound enough.
Bahagia you said:

2.That the Torah as we have it today has not been corrupted or altered in any way. Of course, this isn't true - unless you want to believe the Moses produced his own obituary and wrote a historical account of kings who lived after his death. This is just one of the many cases of correuption evident in the old testament that renders it unsuitable as a basis for criticising other texts.

Starjade says: The writers of the Koran had no problem using portions of the Old Testament to make their claims did they. Nobody says those portions are corrupted do they. Those Magicians were not threatened by the Pharaoh and Moses was not adopted and could not have been adopted by the Pharaohs wife. Or is Egyptian history to blame as well for the Old Testaments statements, which do match Egyptian history. The Koran is proven to be the one in error.

Bahagia you said:
3.That the Torah in our possession today is complete.
Given the history of the writing, loss and rewriting of the Torah throughout history, this is highly unlikely especially given that the oldest manuscripts available today are dated at over a thousand years after Moses' death. For all we know, this account of the magicians repenting to Allah and being subsequently threatened by the Pharoah could well have appeared in the original Torah. Without the original manuscripts, you cannot say for certain whether this is true or not.

Starjade says: I quote from a 300 years Old Bible not some Torah. There are missing things in the Old Testament but I can only use what is available. The Koran can only do the same as it gets its quotes from the Old Testament as well. But of course then you would claim the Old Testament to be correct. It’s a good way to excuse the Koran claiming without the original text this threat upon the magicians could not be proven either way. But the Bible I write from was written diligently from those original writings. To get the story right. It is a King James Bible but it is an original not a revised version. And it is designed to be read in Churches.

As that religion is older than your own then you have no choice but to accept its story as being the true one. Especially as I have name errors in the Koran that no Muslim can reply to which according to the Sura 4:82 proves that the Koran did not come from God as you and other Muslims claim. When you are caught out in a lie it is hardly sense for anyone to then ignore those realities and try and then portray your Koran as a truthful book when its own Sura 4:82 proves that its words and claims are not true.

Bahagia you said: These three examples alone show how flawed your criticism is - no unbiased scholar could ever accept your methodology. In order to prove that the Quran is wrong and the Bible is correct, you will have to provide solid, unbiased proof of this. Simply saying that the Qur'an is wrong just because the Bible says differently is unacceptable.

Starjade says: I do not simply say the Koran is wrong I quoted Islamic law and the Sura 4:82 and proved the Koran is wrong by showing those errors and discrepancies. Therfore the Koran then says not me the Koran says that if one error is found in the Koran then the Koran did not come from God.

Quote:
Starjade says: It is not just a matter of crucifixion is it. It is a matter of a specific cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then being crucified. That is an Islamic form of punishment still used today.[/quote]

Bahagia you said: The cutting of hands was also a punishment used in ancient Egypt.

Starjade says: The cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body is the punishment that we are talking about and this was not done to those Magicians.

Bahagia you said: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/law.htm
The Pharaoh himself might very well decide the most important criminal cases, or at other times he might appoint a special commission with full authority to pass judgement. Depending on the severity of the case, being exiled to Nubia or the Western Oasis, or sent to to labor in the distant mines or quarries was not uncommon. Some crimes were punished with mutilation consisting of cutting off a hand, tongue, nose or ears. In extreme cases, capital punishment was inflicted by implement on a stake, burning alive, drowning or decapitation. Because the guilty had violated Ma'at, it was also assumed the individual would suffer failure, poverty, sickness, blindness or deafness, with the final settlement awaiting in the Court of the Dead.

Starjade says: The Koran states the Pharaohs anger blazed the threat of the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body was made in anger not in a court of law according to the Koran.

There was no court no Judge other than the words of the Pharaoh. You mention other forms of punishments wheras I mention only the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then crucifying the body.

The Old Testament was written long before the Koran and they already made it clear what went on and those Magicians were not ever threatened in anyway except by Moses. According to the Koran they ended up being chopped in pieces after the Pharaoh had them killed.

Bahagia you said: And even if this punishment wasn't specifically mentioned in the Bible, it doesn't mean that it never happened for the reasons I (and others) have already given.

Starjade says: I have always seen your reasoning but the Old Testament was written long before the Koran and so it is authentic to its own written stories and text. The Koran was written long after and the writer re wrote that tale with a modern Islamic and changed version.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Another typical tactic - the flawed borrowing theory. For this to be true, you need more than just coincidence, you need solid proof that Muhammad actually read the Torah or was in any way influenced by it. As we all know, Muhammad was uneducated and illiterate so it highly unlikely that he read it himself, even more so seeing as the Bible was not translated into Arabic until 200 years after his death. The only bibles in existance in that part of the world at that time were either written in hebrew or syriac, and there is no evidence whatsoever that he or any of his followers could speak or read this language.

According to various book in the old testament, this was due to the jews rewriting it for their own purposes. It's incorrect to say that the old testament is sound because there are many errors to be found in there (since when do grasshoppers have four legs?). Of course, its nice that you can admit that the bible does contain errors - christians and jews usually dont have the balls to admit this. However, in order to prove that the old testament has not been altered, you need to produce the original manuscripts instead of just your personal theories and opinions. This is something you or anyone else can't do, and therefore your hypothesis that the Qur'an is wrong because the bible says differently is unacceptable.

Once again, you have failed to answer my criticism, and have attempted to prove your point by repeating yourself. If you're going to convince anyone, you need to do a lot more than this.

If you read this subject properly, you would know that the Qur'an is correct on many points in which the bible is in error or has ommitted. For example, in relating the story of Joseph (peace be upon him), the bible wrongly calls the king of Egypt the Pharoah. This is contradiction to historical evidence which shows that this title was not used until 200 years after his death. The human writers of the bible (most of which are unknown) have always made this error... does this error exist in the Qur'an? No! Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) have access to this historical information? No! This information, along with knowledge of the heiroglyphic language, was lost hundreds of years before when the christians conquered Egypt, and was not made available until 200 years ago.

Your second sentance totaly negates your entire arguement.

By your logic, we should all be hindus seeing as hinduism predates judaism by a thousand years or so. Ah well...

I hope you're not referring to the various 'errors' which have refuted by a number of muslim websites. Or do you have something new to offer?

Trouble is, you haven't proved here that the Qur'an is wrong. Instead of providing the solid proof which I and my brothers have been demanding, all you can do is keep repeating yourself.

To the Pharoah, he was a living god and the magicians had committed blasphemy by repenting to the Lord of all the exists. To his mind, he didn't need a court or judge.

I have already made it clear that the old testament isn't a credible source of disproving the Qur'an from a historical point of view, for the reasons I have already given.

If you want to prove that it is, you first need to provide clear solid proof the the old testament is complete and unaltered from the original scripture as revealed to Moses (peace be upon him). Seeing as the original scripture was added to and corrupted after the death of Moses, lost, rewritten by Ezra (peace be upon him), lost again then rewritten again by a number of scribes, this is a very, VERY tall order indeed!

In short, you need to:

1.      Prove that the bible is unaltered, inerrant and complete.

2.      Prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) and/or his followers actually read the old testament - and therefore could read either hebrew or syriac.

3.      Explain why the Qur'an doesn't contain biblical errors, such as the king of Egypt's title during the time of Joseph, the story of Noah's flood (peace be upon him) etc etc.

4.      Prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that the Qur'anic narration of the Moses is wrong - in other words, provide proof other than "it's different from the bible".

Only when you meet these four conditions could your point of view regarding this subject be in any way acceptable or convincing.

_________________
La ilaha illah-l-Lahu wa la na'bdu illa lyyah, mukhlasina la-hudeena wa law kariha-l-kafirun.
There are no gods besides Allah and we worship none but him with sincere devotion, even though the kafir dislike it.

There is of course another way that we can judge if these claims of the Koran are true even when they contradict the statements of the Jews who lived in those Times and recorded those events. That is to Judge the one who has written those statements that exist in the Koran.

You and I did not live in those Times and so we have only history and the word of others as to what went on then. We cannot know with our own minds because we just did not exist then. History can be written by Christians Jews and Muslims who could all be bios with their own interpretations due to their own religious persuasions and knowledge of history. After all many folk will just go with their beliefs and personal knowledge and who can say then what could be true. Look at all of us here debating such issues and all having different viewpoints based upon our own knowledge of what we all believe or accept went on in those days. The same thing goes with religions. There are Jews and Muslims and Christians all with different statements and beliefs of things that conflict in discussion due to opposing data. So why should those writers of the past be any different.

But the Old Testament came first and Christianity and Islam are all based on that Old Testament story. We can moan at the way writers have re written the text of the Old Testament but all agree the basic story of the Old Testament is accepted as being true. The arguments of debate are when certain claims of those events from outside religions have created text that differs from the claims of the original Old Testament. So to determine the truth we could try looking into history but that can be written by the viewpoints of whatever religion the writer follows persuading his beliefs or with the restrictions of what that writer may know at that Time not realising that he maybe writing down something he believed that just could not be true.

The Koran claims that the Pharaohs wife adopted Moses and the Koran claims the magicians were threatened with death by the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and then being crucified and then the Koran claims the magicians were put to death and chopped to pieces. Egyptian history shows that it could not have been the Pharaohs wife who adopted Moses as the one who adopted Moses was Nefure and she was not married at that Time and Egyptian history says she became married after Moses fled Egypt. So that story in the Koran could be proven to be unsound by history. The Old Testaments claims that it was the daughter of the Pharaoh cannot be challenged as the Old Testament was all written first and is authentic to its own text no matter what anyone else believes.

All other statements about those events have to match the original otherwise it is another writer’s version. I think I know why the Koran has a different text and is written the way it is. As a writer myself I do notice the flow of the writers thread and can see a reason why the Korans story is different from the original Old Testament. It is logical to realise that few Old Testaments existed during the Times of Muhammad and it is known that Muhammad got his religious education from his wife’s cousin Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza, apparently Waraqa was a blind old man who had embraced Christianity in the pre Islamic period. Muhammad would then have to remember and recall those stories. That is why the Koran does not have the chapter and verses as it does in the Old and New Testaments. That is also why the statements of the Koran differ in its claims, as Muhammad would then have to remember all those stories. But he did not recall them accurately. Hence the discrepancies.

Then of course the Koran was written out again with additional data as Zayd ibn Thabit, attempted to write out the Koran. How long did the Koran take to be written as that data was collected? About 25 years. If all the data of the Koran had been available than it would have been easy to copy out but Zayd ibn Thabit, had to make the text of the Koran sensible and believable. So he would have done research to some degree.

To Judge on those matters of if that Korans claims are written with solid foundation we should not forget where all these claims of Muhammad had sprang from. Your religion is all based on that claimed encounter with the Angel Gabriel who grabbed hold of Muhammad and squeezed him in a Cave forcing Muhammad to recite and remember all the verses of the Quran. The Koran was claimed by Muhammad to have been written down as from the word of the mouth of this Angel Gabriel and that is whom the Muslims swear is the author of the contents of the Koran even to this very day.

They insist that Muhammad was illiterate and could not read or write in order to pacify the claims made by others that Muhammad must have wrote out the Koran himself. Muslims claim this was a divine revelation and the words in the Koran came from God through this Angel Gabriel. His followers were said to commit the text of the Koran to memory, and then as instructed by Muhammad, they were then put into writings, Muhammad died in 632 and after the battle of Al Yamamah in 633 Umar inb al Khattab, who later became the second Caliph, said to the first Caliph Abu Bakir, that because of the loss in that battle they were in danger of losing the Koran as it was mainly enshrined in their memories.

Aby Bakr recognised the danger and entrusted the task of writing out the Koran to Zayd ibn Thabit, who was the chief scribe that Muhammad had frequently dictated to during his lifetime. A final authorised text was prepared and completed in 651 during the Time of Uthman the third Caliph and this has remained the text of the Koran in use ever since. Still Muslims however claim that the contents of the Koran came from God through this Angel Gabriel.

Starjade says: Now if I had come to you claiming an Angel called Gabriel had appeared to me in a Cave and gave me a Squeeze and forced me to quote some religious doctrine then you would immediately be laughing at me. Especially if you knew that this Gabriel I spoke of was only mentioned by the Christians who were trying to promote a holy religious belief in a man called Jesus, who was claimed to be that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. And if you also knew that the name Gabriel first appeared in the Old Testament regarding a dream that Daniel had had whiles in a deep sleep and Daniel described a man not an Angel.

Now instead of us all chasing history to see if things said match history. Why should we not look first at the source of the writer of those claims in the first place. It is a fact that Muslims all agree on is that the Koran came from the mouth of Muhammad and was then written down by Zayd ibn Thabit, but Those words Muhammad claims came from the mouth of an Angel called Gabriel who gave him a squeeze in a Cave.

It was claimed this Angel Gabriel told Muhammad he was the long awaited Prophet of the Nation and that Prophet of the Nation as we all know is claimed to be that very specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and that is exactly who Muhammad has claimed himself to be.

But it is a known fact that Muhammad believed in Jesus and believed that Jesus was the Prophet who Jesus has claimed himself to be. 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify this Jesus as being who Jesus has claimed himself to be and the Koran does not argue or debate the claims of Jesus.

But the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be is that very specific Prophet that the Living God promised Moses he would raise up. (NT quote) 45 Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, [even] Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. 46 For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" Here is a link proving this claim by Jesus and the Christians that Jesus is claimed as being that very Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. On this matter there is not doubt. And remember that Mathew and Luke claim the Angel Gabriel appeared to authenticate Jesus.

Author The Christian Preacher Iris. Discourse on Moses Foretold the Coming of Jesus (Yeshua):
http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=4860

So then Muhammad believed that Jesus was who Jesus claimed himself to be. And 11 Chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being who Jesus claimed himself to be whiles not being aware that Jesus was claiming that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.

The very Prophet that Muhammad was proclaiming himself to be is that very specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. And do not forget that Muhammad has claimed, as does the Koran that the Angel Gabriel appeared to authenticate Muhammad. In fact Muhammad claims this Angel Gabriel told Muhammad that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.

That imaginary Angel Gabriel sure gets about and cannot decide it seems.

So both Jesus and Muhammad are both claiming themselves to be that very Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Also Islamic history states that When Muhammad told Waraqa what had happened in the Cave, Waraqa said that was the Angel Gabriel who is entrusted with the divine secrets that Allah had sent to Moses. It was Waraqa who first suggested to Muhammad that he was that long awaited Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. But Muhammad knew he had gone mad and went up a Mountainside to kill himself when again he claims this Angel Gabriel appeared telling him that he was that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.

The Koran and the claims of the Pharaoh’s wife adopting Moses and this threat of cutting off of the hands and feet of these magicians and then crucifying them and killing and dismembering their dead bodies is all claimed to have come from the words of this Angel Gabriel spoken through Muhammad and then written word for word by Zayd ibn Thabit.

I have no doubt that Muhammad used to speak the tales he had heard of the Old Testament to people but he got his facts wrong and that is why the Koran is not giving a true or accurate account that matches the statements and Testimonies made in the Old Testament. Or even the New Testament. This is why the Koran is not a Chapter and verse account as it is of the Old and New testament as the Koran is a repeat of claims made by Muhammad who clearly did not hear the full story or recall that story accurately. So whiles we debate on whether the Pharaoh's daughter had adopted Moses or his wife or if those magicians were crucified or not. We should recall now and then that we are speaking of statements in the Koran that were unsound and inaccurate in the first place. Only the Jews who lived in the Times knew what went on and they recorded that history. In the Old Testament.

We cannot just ignore those statements and start listening to inaccurate storytelling of a person who was not there and who believed on one hand that Jesus was that Prophet God promised Moses he would raise up whiles then claiming himself to be that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Whiles those who narrate the contents of the Koran to be written down at a later date by people who did not have any accurate data of the Old Testaments full story.

Let none of us forget that this Old Testament story and claims of this foretold and promised by God Prophet and following statements are of the Jews religion. The authors of the Koran already made errors in their claims and the cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides is a newer Islamic form of punishments practised by Muslims even today. But it was Islamic not Egyptian and Zayd ibn Thabit was the Muslim who knew of that Islamic form of punishments and simply added that onto his text.

Before we can say this or that about those claims we should first look at the authors of those claims and the statements they made that led them up to writing down such conclusions. None of which match the Old Testament statements and Testimonies and are proven to be making statements that just are not possible to be true.

The claims of an Angel squeezing Muhammad in a Cave are silly enough and if I came here with that claim you would still be laughing. Yet you accept those claims from Muhammad who had got away with that because either follow Islam or die. And you stubbornly defend the undependable as if you must be right without even giving thoughts to reality and facts. So this adoption of Moses this cutting off of the hands and feet on opposite sides and crucifying the body then dismembering that body and the rest of it are all written from a source that is already founded on stories that are ridicules beyond belief. And full of error and discrepancy.

At least when I came forwards with my statements and claims I did not insult anyone but proved my words using The Old Testament law of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 because that is a law that decides upon matters of the truth especially with regards to statements that could be considered to be crimes of Iniquity and Sin. And the many signs in the Heavens and my own acts and deeds and the actual word of the Living God. I do not ramble on about the rest of the Old testament or the New Testament and Jesus is a fraud as well as Muhammad so no real need to speak of them. It makes me wonder just who are the real religious people on this Planet who ignore History and facts and religious laws to chase off into the realms of fantasy and delusions.

Whiles you all invent reasons to this and that you should first consider where you information came from. For really it is claimed by that Koran to have originate from an Angel whom nobody witnessed who is said to have given Muhammad a squeeze in a Cave one day. And you are trying to defend those claims. And losing when you make them to someone who can be proven by religious law to be a real Prophet who does have a provable connection to the Living God and who has already ordered that mass Exodus of Jews and at a Time when all those many signs in the Heavens appeared in conjunction with each other. I say the task before you must be daunting and you must feel that in your bones. That reality is going to haunt you all from now until the End of Time. Then the Living God is going to be getting an account from you and he already knows I was here and that you all had been warned. .
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

Bahagia you say:
Another typical tactic - the flawed borrowing theory. For this to be true, you need more than just coincidence, you need solid proof that Muhammad actually read the Torah or was in any way influenced by it. As we all know, Muhammad was uneducated and illiterate so it highly unlikely that he read it himself, even more so seeing as the Bible was not translated into Arabic until 200 years after his death. The only bibles in existance in that part of the world at that time were either written in hebrew or syriac, and there is no evidence whatsoever that he or any of his followers could speak or read this language.

Starjade says: There is no tactic or plannings I see the post I copy it into word and then reply to the statements given. Your continuing repeats of this crucifixion is why I am forced to repeat myself as the answer clearly would always be the same.

How can you say Muhammad had no knowledge of the Old testament when he makes claims to being that prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up and he claims he satisfied the Prophecies of Isaiah and then repeats the Exodus story but with his new words that clearly are in error. And he also claimed to fulfil specific Prophecies from the Old Testament wich are worded as the Old testament claims.

Do you forget Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza, apparently Waraqa was a blind old man who had embraced Christianity in the pre Islamic period. Now it is clear that if he had embraced Christianity then he got information about that religion from some place. They did not have a telly in those days so they had to speak of something. So a Bible did exist and clearly someone close to Muhammad knew all about that. The New testament could not exist without the Old Testament as that too uses the Old Testament to make its claims.

And few people read Bibles even in these days that is what Preachers are for. So you do not need to read a Bible to know what that Bible contains. Someone else can read it for you and that lack of accurate data is why the Korans account of the Exodus is so full of error and discrepancy. Such as claiming Moses cast down those staffs that turned into snakes when it was Aaron or of Simiri forging the golden Calf when it was Aaron the brother of Moses. Or of the wife of the Pharaoh adopting Moses when it was the daughter. And Egyptian history confirms that it was the daughter so the Koran is proven again and again to be in error.

I am offline today and must leave this computer in 7 minutes. But I shall read what you have said and will have to reply another Time. But in a way I already did reply to you in the post I just wrote out and left here. In a way they do answer all your questions. Seems as if we have been both thinking along the same lines or was that just me being perceptive as usual.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Last edited by Starjade on Tue Jan 18, 2005 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

The only part of the Old testament that i need or have interest in is the Prophecy made by the Living God regarding the Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Plus Gods laws of deuteronomy. Ch 19 v 15.

The only thing i need to prove is that I am a Prophet who does have a provable connection to the Living God. The rest of the Bible is irrelevant.

Here is that proof.
http://www.oocities.org/end_of_times/chaptertwo.htm
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Starjade says: Thats Ok Bahagia I shall be patient I understand how other outside things can interfere with good conversations. I have many other conversations on the go and must also reply to them as well as those here, so my Time is taxed also. I have four forums to visit just today. This is saturday. Some of those conversations go deep also and need constant response. So I shall be occupied in the meanwhile.
_________________
The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.

Bahagia you say: Another typical tactic - the flawed borrowing theory. For this to be true, you need more than just coincidence, you need solid proof that Muhammad actually read the Torah or was in any way influenced by it. As we all know, Muhammad was uneducated and illiterate so it highly unlikely that he read it himself, even more so seeing as the Bible was not translated into Arabic until 200 years after his death. The only bibles in existance in that part of the world at that time were either written in hebrew or syriac, and there is no evidence whatsoever that he or any of his followers could speak or read this language.
Starjade says: Of course you are forgetting Islamic history and of Muhammads wife’s cousin Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza who Muhammad had gone to see after the incident in the Cave. Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza was a Christian in the Pre Islamic period.

It is clear that Muhammad and Islam are using the Jews religions to form there own. Islamic experts taught me the religion of Islam. Upon reflection they knew more about Islam and Islamic history than any Muslim I have ever met. They spoke of when Muhammad was a trader and how Muhammad was so trusted that others would bring their books for Muhammad to tally up. Any trader knows you need to read to tally books and Muhammad did many other traders books besides his own and so clearly he could read to some degree.

Clearly Muhammad had the Christian his wife’s cousin Waraqa bin Nawful bin Asad al-uzza, to teach him of the Old and New Testament and this claim of Muhammad being an unlettered man was a deception that was done so it would appear as Muslims often claim that Muhammad had satisfied a Prophecy made by Isaiah in Chapter 29 regarding a book being given to an unlearned man. Yet when you look at that so called Prophecy made by Isaiah it is clear that Isaiah was speaking metaphorically and not of an actual book. Here are those Old Testament quotes.

Gods heavy Judgement upon Jerusalem 7 the unsatiableness of her enemies 9 The senselessness 13 and deep hypocrisy of the Jews 18 A promises of sanctification to the godly.

Isaiah : Chapter 29
Verse 8: It shall be even be as when an hungry man dreameth and, behold he eateth: but he awaketh, his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he that awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his Soul hath appitite: So shall the multitude of all nations be, that fight against Mount Zion.
Verse 9: Stay yourselves and wonder; ery ye out and cry: They are drunken but not with wine: They stagger but not with strong drink.
Verse 10: For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit deep sleep and hath closed your eyes: The Prophets and your rulers the seers have covered.

Verse 11: And the Vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed which men deliver to one that is learned saying, read this, I pray thee: and he saith I cannot; for it is sealed.
Verse 12: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying read this, I pray thee: and he saith I am not learned.
Verse 13: Wherefore the Lord said for as much as this people draw near me with their mouth and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me and their fear towards me is taught by the precept of men.
Verse 14: Therefore, behold I will proceed to do marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work, and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Starjade says: We all know that the Koran was written long after the death of Muhammad as Muslims do infer this was the book in question. Yet it was Zayd ibn Thabit, who wrote that book not Muhammad.
There is a Prophecy in Isaiah that Muhammad made no attempt to fulfil. Neither did Jesus. In 1995 when I approached the Jews with revelations of the apocalypse with a view to an Exodus I did fulfil that Prophecy and at a Time when all those many signs in the heavens came into rare alignment with each other. And I was using the laws of Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 the many signs in the heavens and my own acts and deeds to prove to the Jews who I was. Those claims and statements are is still irrefutable.

Isaiah Ch 11 v 11: And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnants of his people which shall be l;eft, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands, of the Sea.

Isaiah Ch 11 v 12: And he shall set upon an ensign for the nations and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the Globe.

Bahagia you say: According to various book in the old testament, this was due to the jews rewriting it for their own purposes. It's incorrect to say that the old testament is sound because there are many errors to be found in there (since when do grasshoppers have four legs?).
Starjade says: I know grasshoppers must have more than two legs but had other things to do than count them. I think they are like mini Locusts.

Yes I have got into many heated debates with people over the Christians manipulating Old Testament text. Re wording them for their own purpose of promoting the false Prophet Jesus. Those Christians originated as being blasphemous Jews but then no longer were Jews. But the main tale of the Old Testament is still sound and in that text is a hidden text that I am aware of and can de cipher and that still exists and even flows on into the New Testament. So while they manipulated the text to promote Jesus they still retained that hidden data and the re writers had to know that hidden text was there.

Bahagia you say: Of course, its nice that you can admit that the bible does contain errors - christians and jews usually dont have the balls to admit this. However, in order to prove that the old testament has not been altered, you need to produce the original manuscripts instead of just your personal theories and opinions. This is something you or anyone else can't do, and therefore your hypothesis that the Qur'an is wrong because the bible says differently is unacceptable.

Starjade says: I think if you re read all the words of this thread you will realise that I am not voicing my opinions but using facts and statements made by the Living God or those Jews who lived in those times. Many Christians have come online moaning at some statements I have made that did not correspond with text in their own Bibles. I have already spoken at length about such errors but as the Old and New Testaments are Christian or Jewish then my conversations of those matters were pertaining to them. These conversations we are having now are with regards to the Koran which is a whole other book. Yet still based on that same story and same Prophecies and Muhammad has even claimed himself to be that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up in 18 Verse 15/18: And so the conversations are going to overflow each other.

And wether you accept this or not I can prove by religious law that I am that specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. I already proved that to the Jews in 1995. So I am in a position to speak with more than theory. After all Jesus and Muhammad are both claiming themselves to be that very Prophet that I am. And unlike them who have no proof but fanciful claims. I can back my mouth up with religious law the many signs in the heavens and my own acts and deeds and the actual word of the Living God. My claim is irrefutable and I challenged the worlds congregations to try and prove other wise. Many came forwards attempting to do that in the name of their own religions or their own beliefs and all of them all of them bit the dust and could not dispute the statements that I have made.

That challenge is still open and I dare your Imams all the Time to come forwards with their knowledge and try and dispute the claims that I have made. Many have seen the evidence and dare not openly challenge me. I really am the King of that Castle from now and beyond the End of Times. The Jews the Christians and Muslims all know who I can be proven by religious law to be. But they have their own axes to grind. So I remain a thorn in their side.

Bahagia you say: Once again, you have failed to answer my criticism, and have attempted to prove your point by repeating yourself. If you're going to convince anyone, you need to do a lot more than this.

Starjade says: I do not need to convince anyone I only needed to prove to those Jews who I was by religious law and that is something I easily have done. As I am that Prophet then my existence authenticates the Old Testament and my words on the Old Testament are more sound than the Old Testaments text as I have other knowledge that cannot be found in that book. I fulfilled the Living Gods Prophecy way back in 1995 and it is a matter of the Jews religion and nobody else’s. The Old Testament itself was around about a thousand years before the Koran and some words may get changed but the tale is still there and is still authentic to its own text with statements written long before Christianity and the Koran ever came about. Others used the Old Testament Prophecies to invent their own Prophets and their own religions.

I also researched this matter of the adoption of Moses and it was not the Pharaohs wife and Egyptian history backs that up. And those Magicians were not threatened in the Old Testament and its own text speaks for itself and is backed up with religious history and the word of the Prophesied Prophet. While regarding the Koran apart from Egyptian history we have the Sura 4:82 and those errors in the Koran which causes the Koran to admit that it did not come from God proving it is Just more religious deceptions.

Starjade wrote:
Or is Egyptian history to blame as well for the Old Testaments statements, which do match Egyptian history. The Koran is proven to be the one in error.

Bahagia you say: If you read this subject properly, you would know that the Qur'an is correct on many points in which the bible is in error or has ommitted. For example, in relating the story of Joseph (peace be upon him), the bible wrongly calls the king of Egypt the Pharaoh. This is contradiction to historical evidence which shows that this title was not used until 200 years after his death.

Starjade says: I got a hard core lesson in Egyptian history and the Titles of a Pharaoh could have been named other things such as the Ramesese. Hardly a solid point as today’s Bibles were written from foreign languages and had to be translated and the Scholars who did that would have use modern words to translate. And all Bible with a New Testament are all Christian Bibles not Jewish. So they had to have been written during the 500 year period after the claimed death of Jesus as that is approximately when the Romans took over that religion. This is the most likely explanation to your point.

Bahagia you say: The human writers of the bible (most of which are unknown) have always made this error... does this error exist in the Qur'an? No! Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) have access to this historical information? No! This information, along with knowledge of the hieroglyphic language, was lost hundreds of years before when the christians conquered Egypt, and was not made available until 200 years ago.

Starjade says: The Koran was written about a thousand years later on. Time being approximate. Muhammad did not write the Koran Zayd ibn Thabit,did and his data was not correct either. Forgive the digression but as a Child from curiosity I read the Egyptian book of the dead. (much over rated in my view) But at the rear of that book it teaches you how to read hieroglyphics and they are not that hard. The picture represent sounds in a lot of cases and others represent things. But that is another story. I still often say lets get the original writings and text of the Old Testament and get those translated. The Christians cannot be trusted as they are natural born liars and are also deceiving the congregations regarding the promotion of the false Prophet Jesus. Even the Dead sea scrolls had New Testament text and so they are not the original text unless they got those to add their Testaments onto.

Carbon dating could help us all identify the Old Testament from the Christians new Testament. But today mankind is far too complacent. I myself do not need any of these texts for the claims I have made are only pertaining to Deuteronomy Ch 19 v 15 and the Prophecy of Deuteronomy 15/18. And the coming of that Prophet that those Jews have all been waiting for and have kept that faith in. Of course I do mention other text such as Isaiah Ch 11 v 12: And he shall set upon an ensign for the nations and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the Globe. But basically that is all that is pertaining to the coming of that specific Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up/. The rest is of no interest to me at all. It is the hidden text that I have an interest in but not of such that it controls my life but in that is a curiosity.

 

Bahagia you say: Your second sentance totaly negates your entire arguement.

Starjade says: I don’t agree. I am attempting to get a message across. Neither of us have the original documents nor could we possibly read them if we had so we use the closest thing available. All Bibles with a new Testament are Christian origin but they had to use the Old testament so they copied what they could. I have two 300 years Old Bibles that were diligently copied from those biblical writings that had been de ciphered and they are most likely to be older in data than any Bible you will have access to. So what if the Christians manipulated some text. The main story still exists and the New Testament can still be ignored. Hey I heard the Jews do ignore that new Testament anyway. I also have a knowledge of this Biblical text that is not written in the Old Testament. But was God given and so I have a lot more to judge with than someone who is not in my unusual position. I have de coded many parts of that Bible several Times in the Past. Often with regards to the fruits that grew upon the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden. So the Old Testament has not been altered too much and as I have said it is the Prophecy of Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 15/18 that is of use to me in the fulfilling of the Living Gods will and the potential to save those descendants of Abraham.

Bahagia you say: By your logic, we should all be hindus seeing as hinduism predates judaism by a thousand years or so. Ah well...

Starjade says: I did not know that about Hinduism it is not a religion I have ever studied as I hear they are worshippers of many false Gods. So I would find such a study pointless and irritating. The Living God has said we must not follow false Prophets or worship false Gods and so it is not wise to stop following a false Prophet and worshipping the God of that false Prophets imagination just to go then and blaspheme more by worshipping many false Gods.

You cannot become a Jew if you are not a descendants of Abraham but some alien residents are accepted to that fold. So this displaces may people who are forced by Islamic law to convert from Islam. Religions are born from Souls such as myself but I have no patience for such things. I suggest you convert and become worshippers of just the Living God instead. The Living God does not need you to pray in a Church. Only at the Time of your need. The Living God is Spherical in shape and white in colour and lives beyond the Veil of the Abyss in deep space. That is more said to you about the Living God than has ever been mentioned in the past and that is all you need to really know. Have faith in the Living God. And worship only the Living God and the Living God will search you out. Either in this life or the next. As for the way to live. In my view Siddharta Guatama got it right. That is a good way to travel towards spiritual enlightenment. So adopting his philosophies on most matters will be helpful and then again there are many plants and herbs and fungi that are worthwhile meditating upon in Times of meditation.

Bahagia you say: I hope you're not referring to the various 'errors' which have refuted by a number of muslim websites. Or do you have something new to offer?

Starjade says: I have named many errors here at the request of Dr Maybe that have been shirked and ignored. Really only the adoption of Moses and this crucifixion thing are all that has been attempted to be answered. And no Muslim yet has refuted any of the errors that I have mentioned and cannot in my view. And the brags and claims that a Muslims makes when he thinks he has an answer are not the same as actually refuting those errors. And I have over 500 errors that I know of many not yet mentioned whiles I have been waiting for Muslims to reply to the very few errors that I have already mentioned. I just am over brimming with patience waiting for a Muslim to also reply to missiles like stars and meteors being fired at Jinns or the one about the Angels making the sound of Thunder to glorify Allah. Two errors I have no doubt muslims will always shirk away from.

Bahagia you say: Trouble is, you haven't proved here that the Qur'an is wrong. Instead of providing the solid proof which I and my brothers have been demanding, all you can do is keep repeating yourself.

Starjade says: The Sura 4:82 proves the Koran is wrong by its own words. Only one error needs to be found in the Koran to prove that the Koran did not come from God. And it is the Muslims who are repeating themselves forcing my replies to be repeated as they do not change. And yes I have proven those errors exist in the Koran and they are irefutable. Let me see you reply to these errors then if you think otherwise.

Jinns & Shooting stars: Meteors, and even stars are said to be missiles fired at eavesdropping Satans and jinn who seek to listen to the reading of the Qur'an in heaven, and then pass on what they hear to men in suras 37:6-10; 55:33-35; 67:5; & 72:6-9.

How are we to understand these suras? Can we believe indeed that Allah throws meteors, which are made up of carbon dioxide or iron-nickel, at non- material devils who steal a hearing at the heavenly council? And how do we explain the fact that many of earths meteors come in showers which consequently travel in parallel paths. Are we to thus understand that these parallel paths imply that the devils are all lined up in rows at the same moment?

Birds and ants
King Solomon was taught the speech of birds (sura 27:16) and the speech of ants (sura 27:18-19). In his battles, he used birds extensively to drop clay bricks on Abrah's army (sura 105:3-4), and marched them in military parades (sura 27:17). He also used them to bring him messages of powerful queens (sura 27:20-27).
Note: According to the historical record, Abrah's army was not defeated by bricks dropped on their head. Rather, they withdrew their attack on Mecca after smallpox broke out among the troops (Guillame, Islam, pgs.21ff).

sura 17:1 says Muhammad went to the "farthest Mosque" during his journey by night (the Mi'raj), which Muslims explain was the Dome of the Rock mosque, in Jerusalem. But there was no mosque in Jerusalem during the life of Muhammad, and the Dome of the Rock was not built until 690 C.E., by the Amir 'Abd al Malik, a full 58 years after Muhammad's death! There was not even a temple in existence at that time. The temple of Jerusalem had been destroyed by Titus 570 years before this vision. So what was this mosque Muhammad supposedly saw?

Issa
The name for Jesus in the Qur'an is given as "Issa." Yet this is incorrect. Issa is the Arabic equivalent of Esau, the name for the twin brother of Jacob. The correct Arabic name for Jesus would be Yesuwa, similar to the Hebrew Yeshuwa, yet the supposedly "all-knowing" Qur'an has no mention of it.

Starjade says: Now I can mention some 500 errors and more including 21 errors that I have written myself. The Phenomena of Thunder and Lightning It is common knowledge, as scientists teach, that thunder is a sound caused by the impact between electrical charges found in the clouds. Yet Muhammad, the prophet of Muslims, has a different opinion in this matter. He claims that the thunder and the lightning are two of God’s angels—exactly like Gabriel!

In the Qur’an there is a chapter under the title of "Thunder" in which it is recorded that the thunder praises God. We might think that it does not mean that literally because thunder is not a living being—although, spiritually speaking, all of nature glorifies God. The expounders of the Qur’an and its chief scholars, however, insist that Muhammad said that the thunder is an angel exactly like the angel Gabriel. In his commentary (p. 329), the Baydawi comments on verse 13 of chapter of the Thunder,

"Ibn ’Abbas asked the apostle of God about the thunder. He told him, ‘It is an angel who is in charge of the cloud, who (carries) with him swindles of fire by which he drives the clouds."’

In the commentary of the Jalalan (p. 206), we read about this verse:
"The thunder is an angel in charge of the clouds to drive them."

Not only ibn ’Abbas asked Muhammad about the essence of the thunder, but the Jews did too. In the book, "al-Itqan" by Suyuti (part 4, p. 230), we read the following dialogue:

"On the authority of Ibn ’Abbas, he said the Jews came to the prophet (peace be upon him) and said, ‘Tell us about the thunder. What is it?’ He told them:

‘It is one of God’s angels in charge of the clouds. He carries in his hand a swindle of fire by which he pricks the clouds to drive them to where God has ordered them.’ They said to him, ‘What is this sound that we hear?’ He said: ‘(It is) his voice (The angel’s voice)."’

Then there is this matter of Jesus and 11 Chapters of the Koran glorifying Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. Jesus claimed that he is that Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. The Prophet that Muhammad has claimed himself to be is that very same Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. Now that in my view is the biggest error in the Koran.

Only one error needs to be found in the Koran and the Sura 4:82 says then that the Koran did not come from God. So enjoy these at you leisure.

Bahagia you say: To the Pharoah, he was a living god and the magicians had committed blasphemy by repenting to the Lord of all the exists. To his mind, he didn't need a court or judge.

Starjade says; You are the one who mentioned the courts. Not I. And those Magicians did nothing but protect the interests of the Pharaoh. It only claims they were threatened in the Koran not in the original statements of the Old Testament.

Bahagia you say: I have already made it clear that the old testament isn't a credible source of disproving the Qur'an from a historical point of view, for the reasons I have already given.

Starjade says: I have already made it clear that I note your opinion but it is just your opinion and the Sura 4:82 states clearly that if just one error is found to exist in the Koran and this is the Islamic brag. If one error is found in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God and the Koran itself has said that.

Bahagia you say:
If you want to prove that it is, you first need to provide clear solid proof the the old testament is complete and unaltered from the original scripture as revealed to Moses (peace be upon him). Seeing as the original scripture was added to and corrupted after the death of Moses, lost, rewritten by Ezra (peace be upon him), lost again then rewritten again by a number of scribes, this is a very, VERY tall order indeed!

Starjade says: Actually all I need to do is prove that errors exist in the Koran. The Koranic text itself displays those errors and I have pointed out many error that exist in the Koran proving that the Koran did not come from God.

Bahagia you say:
In short, you need to: Prove that the bible is unaltered, inerrant and complete. Prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) and/or his followers actually read the old testament - and therefore could read either hebrew or syriac. Explain why the Qur'an doesn't contain biblical errors, such as the king of Egypt's title during the time of Joseph, the story of Noah's flood (peace be upon him) etc etc. Prove beyond all shadow of a doubt that the Qur'anic narration of the Moses is wrong - in other words, provide proof other than "it's different from the bible". Only when you meet these four conditions could your point of view regarding this subject be in any way acceptable or convincing.

Starjade sasy: Actually whiles I note your opinion. The Koran is quoting Old Testament text and the Sura 4:82 says if one error exists in the Koran there is the proof that the Koran did not come from God. And didn’t Muhammad believe in Jesus and doesn’t 11 chapters of the Koran glorify Jesus as being the Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. So this matter then does exist in the Koran in fact in 11 chapters of the Koran.
Well The Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be is that very prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up.

Starjade concludes. Now isn’t it a fact that the very Prophet that Muhammad has claimed himself to be is that very Prophet that God promised Moses he would raise up. That is the very same Prophet that Jesus has claimed himself to be. And Muhammad and the Koran both believed in Jesus which from an Islamic point of view was really stupid and dumb. Let me see you try and explain that away with some shirk excuses. Islam has bitten the dust by the word of the Koran itself. And also of Muhammad.

Sura 4:82 do they not consider the Koran with care for if it had come from any other than Allah then surely they would have found much discrepancy therein. The Challenge of the Koran is to find just one error. The Koran says if just one error is found in the Koran then that is proof that the Koran did not come from God. The Koran admits that to be a fact.

Do you note I am speaking of what the Koran states.
The Living God only promised Moses one Prophet. And be sure that specific Prophet was not Muhammad or Jesus. And so sayeth the Lord.
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The End of Times Doomsday Prophet.
The Lord King and King of Kings Starjade.
The Crown of the Living White Sphere of Kether.