General list chat

The General List Chit-Chat Thread

From: Robbie B.

Jon-Paul replied to my comment that DD's songs were simple and sometimes the chorus is not too distinct from the verse.

> Simple in structure maybe, but the way his lyrics can turn, and make you pay attention rival Neil Finns IMHO. "DHYB", "BotB" and "LftN", and "MtR" all from Lament spring to mind. Anything but simple.

In some respects I like Dave's lyrics better because they often have a more concrete meaning. You are absolutely correct about the songs you mention, though there are other songs which fit the mold I suggest better. Consider "The Expert", "Love Over All", "PC", "Falling off a Log", and others. His better songs tend to be the ones with the stronger choruses IMHO. Stands to reason I guess. If the verse is very similar to the chorus then keeping the song short means one won't get bored with the same melodic idea.

Incidentally, DD sometimes repeats verse lyrics as well as chorus lyrics, which I don't really like. The song "Joy" springs to mind (and some others on "Loyal"). Both verses have much the same lyrics. (I don't think he does this on his last two albums.) Another reason for keeping the tracks short.

From: Richard T.

Just one question:

Before Optimist, how many DD albums are there? I can only think of two - Cool Bananas and (Th' Dudes one, can't remember what it is called). I don't know if you overseas folks have managed to get your hands on these ones yet?

Personal observation: I think Dave's vocal work on The Optimist (1984??) is some of his most dynamic singing to date. Does anyone agree with me?? Not that his recent singing is not great, but he seems to be losing the high notes with age (especially at the end of long tours in smoky venues!).

Richard

From: Jon-Paul

JP replies briefly, as it's now 4:30pm, I've been to a wine-tasting lecture, and thus motivation to type is dwindling. As far as I know the only DD recordings (not Singles) on CD prior to The Optimist are Th' Dudes "So You want to be a Rock and Roll Star"- (CD has 6 Dudes' songs, and 6 Hello Sailor ones), and DD Smash's "Cool Bananas". A live DD Smash Album, "DD Smash Live: Deep in the Heart of Taxes: Live at Mainstreet, Auckland 1983" is around, but only on Vinyl.

I'll try to get a pre-solo DDiscography out within a week.

Re: Dave's voice: Maybe the High notes he could hit in his 20's are now elusive (though I’ve heard no evidence to support that)- but the strength and power in his voice is still superb. Last time I saw him live was in January 1996, here in CHC, and his voice was in top form- Oh I also saw him at ENZSO in CHC at the end of March- and he was magnificent, Tim Finn couldn't hit the high notes, and was relatively powerless, whereas Davo was positively booming! Also his live rendition of Poor Boy at the 96 NZ Music & Entertainment awards was the absolute highlight of the show.

But I do agree- The Optimist is Dynamic, with those easy octave jumps.

However the one moment which always gives me goosebumps is when he sings the 15 - 17 second long "Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalin g" at the end of that song live, which is only a new trick as far as I know.

Bye

From: Jon-Paul

Hi Dobbophiles,

This is another belated answer to a question posed on the list a while back...

>> RE: Shaky Isles. I dimly heard that this was about the death of his father. True? As far as I know, it is.

I have since received a copy of the song, the lyrics, and liner notes. speak for themselves. Undoubtably about Dave's father..

PS: The b-sides "Overentertained" and "Memorial Greenhouse" are two live tracks (DD- acoustic, no band), which have not seen the light of day anywhere else (like "Shaky Isles" itself).

From: Robbie B.

> I think Dave is more underrated here than a fan like me likes to believe.

I certainly think Dave is respected in NZ. Whether that is the adulation and worship he deserves is another matter! :-)

Every time I saw an interview with Dave he was complaining that the radio stations ignored him (despite his impressive track record and rave reviews by the critics). He seemed rather bitter. Fair enough to complain if you ask me, because NZ radio stations have been appalling at promoting NZ stuff. What seemed to be the policy was to wait to see which tracks became hits (despite lack of radio support) and then thrash the same songs over and over. Thus every time a radio show has a special on NZ music, it is the same tracks over and over. Most of the tracks on the DD collection will be very, very familiar to NZers, but NZ radio will always choose an old classic over a new song.

Just before I left NZ, the *last* commercial FM station in Auckland that would play new adult pop went out of business (there were plenty of stations that would play country, classic rock, easy listening, or dance music). This in a city of a million people is very sad and I sincerely hope the situation has changed. It certainly didn't leave much room for Dave's stuff.

From: Jon-Paul

Hi,

As far as I know, there is no compulsory music quota here. Currently Neil Finn is the spokesperson for starting a JJJ inspired youth-network here. Good luck to him!

Another thing- DD is the darling of the Radio here in Christchurch it seems. The "Rock" stations play heaps of Dudes, DD Smash & Solo Numbers, especially the newer, louder ones like Lap of the Gods, Language and Maybe the Rain. The Classic hits stations will play Loyal era solo stuff (Loyal, Love you like I should etc, Slice of Heaven & Ought be in Love), and also DD Smash- Whaling & Outlook for Thursday. Even the "New" rock - commercial "alternative" played the occasional "Lament for the Numb" or "Lap of the Gods" before the Station was taken over by "Beatles FM" (Which has since become "Jazz FM). On my visits to Auckland recently I've observed similar Dobbyn enthusiasm on the wireless.

I also see Dave as having a whole new legion of fans since Twist, early 20's, and very enthusiastic at the concerts, which is wonderful.

Ciao JP

From: Colleen M.

Hello all,

First of all, as many of you know, this recently appeared on the CH list:

> If you want a valid Lennon comparison, try Dave Dobbyn.

I'm assuming this is an insider comment from an Umm(m) lurker on that list(?) An in-joke so in that only a few of us got it?...And speaking of our contested list name, shouldn't the header of these messages stop reading "DD" and start reading "Umm(m)"? Hmm(m)?

I have been cleaning out my "postponed messages" mailbox and found that sometime a long, long ago, there was this comment from a list member [in a message I have deleted all of except this section]:

> When Dave sings, he puts across the same emotional intensity that Paul Kelly does. Some of the songs hit you smack between the eyes. They both sing with a certain intense yearning and weariness that sucks you right into the deep, dark end of the pool. They've seen the dark side and don't mind showing us a bit of it--albeit watered down for sanity's sake. (They are both deeply romantic as well, which I also like!) ) Neil Finn's songs are more emotionally subliminal because they are more lyrically obtuse. (yeah, sort of like my descriptions!)

[now that I re-read this, it sounds like it might be from Katie] In any case, this comment on the intensity of Dave's voice, his emotionally charged delivery, and how his excellent phrasing masks any deficiencies in his lyrics (a very loose and highly individualized paraphrase) coupled with the discussion of late as to the merits of the Collection (particularly comments about how Dave was experimenting with his voice, his mannered vocals, etc.), leads me to ask about two things.

One is how much his voice and/or his singing style has changed over the years and how this relates to his various albums and their differing styles (or if it does). Did he change his sound to suit his various projects or did the changes in his voice (from growing older?) force him to change his sound and/or approach to music? Nature or nurture, I guess is what I am asking.

The second issue is also voice related. I agree with the anonymous correspondent above about the sadness of Dave's voice. Although his music and lyrics are often excellent, it is his voice which is the drawing card for me. I am sometimes afraid that if someone else covered some of his songs I would hate them based on less than sublime lyrics and/or melodies. There are lots of others I would place in this category, just as there are people who write wonderful songs but can't sing. So what I am asking, I guess is he a better singer than a songwriter? And what I am saying, I guess, is that my answer is "yes" at this moment.

Now that I look at this, I see that I have my questions transposed, but I think you know what I mean. I'm not quite up to speed yet on all of Dave's music, so please excuse me if I am totally off base here.

Also, I know of the "Footrocks Flats" soundtrack and how it launched Dave's career into the stratosphere. And I know that it is a cartoon (right?). But what I don't know it is about. Would someone be so kind as to enlighten me?

Colleen

P.S. The real question is "who is the better songwriter: John Lennon or Bono?"

From: Jon-Paul

Howdy,

I wouldn't quite call Gavin a lurker! His post bought a smile to my face. I assume he's referring to the protest songs like MtR & DHYB, in his Lennon comparison- (Gavin- care to comment?)

The header will remain DD:, it's there so you can tell at a glance, that there is some Umm mail in your mailbox. It's only three characters long- so does not intrude on the subject line as much as Umm(m) would. Changing the first few characters would upset the display if you were to "sort by subject" where all the DD: files in your mail folder will be collected together.

It was Katie who wrote that "obtuse" piece- good spotting. However I have to disagree with the "voice masks lyrical deficiencies" argument. Dave is one of my all time favourite lyricists- especially LftN & Twist. The turn of a phrase, an unexpected word, it's just spine-tingling. Someone else on this list wrote they find Dave's lyrics more accessible than Neil Finn's due to the subject matter being realistic, not fantasy (generalisation alert!)- if that makes any sense- being able to relate to a song makes it all that more personal.

As for covering DD's songs- on Annie Crummers first album "Language" (no relation)- she covers "Guilty" and "Oughtta be in love"- and yes- they are not a patch on Dave's versions / arrangements- a bit too saccharine.

As for Footrot Flats- it started out as a comic strip for Daily newspapers by farmer Murray Ball. Volumes of the cartoons have been made into book form. (there's probably 20 or more Footrot Flats books out there)- it's all about life on a New Zealand Sheep farm "Footrot Flats" owned by Wal Footrot. The star of the cartoon is The Dog. Other main characters are Wal's Aunt Dolly, her corgi Prince, Horse the Cat (not a typo!), and Cooch, the animal loving neighbour. The film was made with ex-pat Kiwi John (Fred Dagg) Clarke as Wal's voice. There was also a "Theme Park" based loosely on the Footrot Flats characters in Auckland, and most recently, they've been seen on TV advertising how MMP- the new voting system in this country- works.

There's *plenty* more in your post open for discussion, so I throw the floor open...

Seeya JP

From: Katie H.

Hiya all,

Sorry if I was obtuse. I was having a little moment, the kind you have when you realize you are listening to something brilliant.

I wouldn't actually agree with Colleen's "very loose and highly individualized paraphrase" of my comment. She wrote: "[Dave's] excellent phrasing masks any deficiencies in his lyrics.

The reason I like Dave and Paul Kelly so much is because I can't really separate their singing from their lyrics. They create a specific mood using both. The vocal style and power of delivery are linked inextricably to their lyrics, which are generally excellent. I would also put Richard Thompson in a category with DD and PK. All three of these guys have what I would call "unusual" voices--they take some getting used to. But, now when they sing their material I don't notice the tone of their voice or the so-called lack of smoothness. I hear the power and emotion of the lyrics.

Come to think of it, Dave is equally adept at covering others' material--listen to the EnzSO version of Poor Boy as an example. I guess I'd have to say he's an amazing interpreter of lyrics--his and others'. Is that the true definition of a good singer in this age of vocal gymnasts? I'd say yes.

As far as a Dobbyn/Lennon comparison goes...well...they both sing rather nasally and grew up on island nations. ;-)

Ciao, KT

From: Gavin M.

After making the Lennon/DD comparison on the Finn list I went home and checked out DD's last two albums. I found the following songs were Lennon-like in topic: Lament for the Numb, The Expert, Buried in the Backyard, Maybe the Rain, Don't Hold Your Breath, P.C., What Do You Really Want, Betrayal (Classic Plastic Ono Band sparsity), I Can't Change My Name.

Having said that, I find Lennon gets too mushy in his love songs, and too glib in his political songs. DD is not making those mistakes. I find DD quite unique, and only really mean that he is closer to a Lennon style than Neil Finn.

On another point, I listened to DD Smash "Cool Bananas". I still found the same as other people reported: DD often sounds like Bowie on this album:

1: Devil You Know: the verses could almost be sung by Bowie.
2: Bury That Gun: Sounds like The Mockers
3: Solo: Very Bowie... "Fashion"
4: Blue Note: Very Dave Dobbyn
5: Repetition: Sounds like The Dudes
6: Silence: Sounds like nothing I know!!
7: Save Yer: Sounds like Split Enz
8: White Water: Sounds like a big guitar band with Enz vocals.
9: Say: 70'rock
10: The Gambler: Sounds like Split Enz

What do others think? DD is getting better and better. Any news on his next album?

Gavin

From: Jon-Paul

Hi,

Below I've snipped a couple of excerpts from two of the articles I've sent you all- which sheds some light on "Slice of Heaven" and also on Dave's (numerous) voices...

'What A Day' recalls Bowie's Young Americans period. "I liked what he did on that album:' says Dobbyn. Even though he was only about 50 per cent successful. He did a nice song with that Luther Vandross song ('Fascination')."

The Likely Lad: Love and Loyalty, Rip It Up, (c) March 1988, By Chris Bourke [snip] With Footrot Flats Dobbyn came of age musically. "During the Footrots period I got all this gear and suddenly I had the mechanics to do things that were always sitting there, and I was exploding to do them. I learned a lot of things in a very short time. Writing discipline. During that period I became an arranger, something I'd never been. During DD Smash we bumbled through arrangement and were quite brash about it. It still worked."

Communication Breakdown

"I grew up imitating singers - Frank Sinatra, David Bowie, Mick Jagger - and imitating the characters I saw on TV. I still imitate those American characters and accents."

The mimic and actor has always managed to combine an amalgam of influences with his own inimitable self, but now he's as concerned with the message as the medium. "It's the same message U2 are spreading around the world, and Bruce Springsteen. There's a fraternity of care there that one can't deny. It's kind of an illusion right now, but it strikes me as being the most powerful thing in the world. Because communication has become so instant and so powerful ... are we out of tape? 'Cos you gotta hear this..."

So there we are- proof!

Love

From: Colleen M.

Hi,

In no way, BTW, does this development lead me back to my possible negative comments about Dave's talent from last week. I now beg everyone's indulgence. You see, I was wrestling with my new computer and the world of Windows95 (a place I don't really want to live). I still stand by my commment that Dave is a better singer than a songwriter. I don't think it is necessarily a negative one, either, although I suppose I could have said something along the lines of "Although Dave has written some of my all time favorite songs, I think his singing [which is not necessarily his voice] is even better than his songwriting abilities." I'm sure we can all compile 2 lists--one of great songrwiters whose songs transcends their awful singing voices and one of great singers whose vocals more than make up for their sometimes awful songs (though now that I think about it, Dave doesn't fit squarely into either of those categories).

So now after digesting the info JP and Gavin presented on Dave's various voices, I have to ask: Who does he sound like now?

Colleen

From: Robbie B.

RE: DD/Lennon Comparisons

I vaguely remember an interview on TV where DD said he was influenced musically by anybody and everybody and wouldn't pin down one specific influence. I think he was talking about his songwriting, and not so much his lyrical interpretation.

I don't hear much of a Lennon/Beatles influence melodically in his music. Harmonically, and rhythmically they are definitely different. DD uses fewer chords in his songs and they are usually rather strange altered chords (beyond me anyway), rather than 7ths which are so prevalent in Lennon/Beatles. Loyal has maybe four chords, DHYB four + a few more in the middle eight, and Whaling is pretty much a three chord song. So lets not have any hassling of three chord wonders on this list!

RE: The DD voice

Colleen postulated

> I am sometimes afraid that if someone else covered some of [DD's] songs I would hate them based on less than sublime lyrics and/or melodies.

I am of the opinion that is best songs would stand up fairly well whoever sang them. (Neil Young, Geddy Lee, etc. excepted). I am also of the opinion that his more ordinary songs would be ordinary whoever did them. But you are right his voice is a key to the brilliance of his music. The instrumentation of his songs often helps too. Whaling mightn't be as good without the nice guitar work.

Remember, that some of DD's less catchy tunes age rather well. I never liked Belltower to start with. Belltower is a good example of nice instrumentation, perfectly judged vocals, and appropriate lyrics. I particularly like the bit "there's no crack in this bell", where he emphasises the crack. An example of onomatopoeia I think. (Hey, I'm increasing my word power today!)

Has anybody covered DD's songs?

Colleen continued

>So what I am asking, I guess is he a better singer than a songwriter?

Maybe. But that's no great shame considering how good he is at singing. Come to think of it, Geddy Lee is also a better singer than songwriter but I think I may be a wee bit biased.

Katie on The Voice:

> I guess I'd have to say [DD's] an amazing interpreter of lyrics--his and others'. Is that the true definition of a good singer in this age of vocal gymnasts? I'd say yes.

Yep an exc. definition.

And you can add projection, vocal range, and mind boggling sustain. Try singing the "you lie" bit at the end of betrayal for example. It's quite hard. The only thing I think that maybe is missing from DD's repertoire, is a good scream. (An example of a good scream is the one at the start of the Beatles' Revolution, or any by Roger Daltrey).

JP says more about The Voice:

>I'm actually surprised Dave's voice doesn't grate on more people-it's very unique, and unusual.

Unique? Funny, he reminds me of David Bowie...

RE: Chris Bourke

That's great news JP. I thought CB, might have been The Listener's CB. If we have anybody too official though, we might have to clean up our act...

From: Katie H.

Hiya all,

JP wrote:

>Looks like that news about Dave finding out about us has kick started ome discussion again. I reckon if you wanna slag the guy off, you'd better do it quick! Well, I'm a little disappointed that we haven't had much discussion about Dave's sartorial splendor, his food choices and eating habits, or his hairstyle! What's with that goatee thing he's sporting on Twist, anyway? So passe! (Sorry JP!) :;-)

Seriously, I don't think we should censor ourselves if Dave's on the list. This list is for us.

Robbie wrote:

>>(ii) Most of the listies will have migrated from the CH group, and their tastes may be biased towards softer numbers prevalent on Twist and not the more nosebleed tracks occasionally encountered in The Collection. I base this sweeping (and no doubt wrong!) generalisation on the rather negative reaction on the CH list to the thrashier tracks on the FINN album, and on Together Alone (Ha!).<<

Speaking for myself (and possibly Colleen?), I like the Neil rockers just as much as long as the song is good (Colleen and I facetiously discussed giving Kill Eye or Love You 'Til The Day I Die 100 points in the CH song poll just to skew the tabulating!) My problem with, say, Kiss the Road on Finn or Skin Feeling on TA is that they aren't very good and are non sequiturs in relation to the surrounding songs. I like Dave's early rockers too, but I think his later songs--mostly ballads coincidentally-- are generally better.

>> (iii) Twist is more accessible, more consistent, and better produced than the Collection.

I agree with this.

>>Has anybody covered DD's songs?

I have a tape where Neil and Tim cover Whaling. It was my first exposure to Dave's music.

JP (the god--I mean the oracle) wrote:

>>I've decided to take a slightly less active role in this list...

(WHAT!!!)

>>It was pointed out to me, quite correctly (Hi Chris), that when I jump in and answer questions at the bottom of the posts eg- the Footrot Flats bit last time, it kinda stifles any discussion anyone else in the know... so, what I'll do is wait a couple of days before replying to any questions posed, giving others the chance to jump in first...<<

I never thought about it until now, but it makes sense. Good suggestion Chris.

From: Steven M.

JP,

Colleen:

After listening to Dave for about a year, I don't know if I could say that he is a better singer or songwriter. I never thought about separating the two. He sings what he writes and I think that he sings his material in a way that only Dave can do justice to. His voice is unique and after years of listenting to Bob Dylan, Dave's voice and freshness of vision are a welcome relief. (although we here in the States are forced to listen to the biological clone, Jakob, Bob's son, offer up his best which to me is the culmination of everything bad about 60's music, through songs such as Sixth Ave. Heartache. The album, Bringing Down the Horse, is sort of like Tom Petty and Roger McGuinn getting together and taking tons of valium and recording) Finishing thought here, Colleen, thanks for the thought. Without it, I would have never considered Dave schizophrenicly.

Hum, I wonder who would sound good doing covers of Dave's stuff?

Write when you get the chance,

Steve

From: Jon-Paul

Howdy,

Speaking of DD covers- there's Whaling, by Tim & Neil Finn as Katie mentioned- from the SNAP show about 10 years back.

I've also mentioned Annie Crummer doing Oughtta be in Love & Guilty on her first album Language.

The Exponents often sneak "Be Mine Tonight" into their live set.

Now here's a list of songs which DD has covered... if anyone can add to the list, let me know...(other than the Enzso stuff- these are all live tracks...)

Poor Boy- Split Enz
My Mistake- Split Enz
Sweet Jane- Velvet Underground
Rain- The Beatles
Four Seasons in One Day- Crowded House

From: Colleen M.

Hello everyone,

Trying to catch up on a few comments I'd like to make. This pseudo-digest format is very convenient for this, I have to say.

First off, the Grand Pooh Bah noted:

> It was pointed out to me, quite correctly (Hi Chris), that when I jump in and answer questions at the bottom of the posts eg- the Footrot Flats bit last time, it kinda stifles any discussion anyone else in the know...

Waiting to post yourself is fine with me as well, but doesn't this presume a lot of people taking your word as gospel....;-) I was on the Tori Amos list for about 3 hours last year (it took 3 weeks to unsubscribe though). That list is also manually run. Besides contending to see who could tell Tori the most horrific true life story backstage, those list members also tried their best to draw a comment inserted below their post from the listowner. It was a strange dynamic. (This is a tangent, not a comparison, BTW.)

Robbie first intimated that CH fans couldn't handle rock music , and then Katie came writing to our rescue:

> Speaking for myself (and possibly Colleen?), I like the Neil rockers just as much as long as the song is good (Colleen and I facetiously discussed giving Kill Eye or Love You 'Til The Day I Die 100 points in the CH song poll just to skew the tabulating!) My problem with, say,

Katie can speak for me with much confidence in this regard (although I wasn't so facetious myself about the assigninment of my 100 points, at least until I read the orders, I mean instructions, and had to abandon my great plan to place "Love You Til..." in the highest eschelon of taste). Speaking only for myself, I like loud thrashy music. Hmmm, I'll have to see about this Dobbyn Collection.

Steve ventured:

> Finishing thought here, Coleen, thanks for the thought. Without it, I would have never considered Dave schizophrenicly.

Thanks Steve, I think ;-), as I'm assuming that you meant schizophrenically in the nicest possible way. (FWIW, I thought you were awfully nice to that nitwit.)

Despite (or would that be because of) no new album from Dave in the foreseeable future, I am bursting with curiosity about it. Does anyone know who will produce it? Who will play on it? How far along he is in the process (i.e., have any songs been written yet?)? When he will go into the studio? Will there be another mosaic missing from the North American release?

And finally one last question: can anyone explain to this North American just how popular Dave is in NZ? For example, what % of people would know who he was by his name? his face? one of his songs? I guess I'm wondering if Footrock Flats was a kiddie movie as well.

Colleen

From: Jon-Paul

Hiya!

I'm currently biting my tongue so as not to respond to Collen's questions about DD & Footrock (AAArrrgghhh!) Flats-

Anyone who wants to respond before I do has got about 24hrs!

Tick

Oh- bugger it - I simply cannot allow myself to fall victim to premature evacuation...

I've got something to say, and I'm damn well gonna say it- If you want thrashy loud Dobbyn, you MUST GET "Lament for the Numb"- it's as simple as that.

OK- that feels better- and I can keep the rest inside till tomorrow!

Luvyall JP

________________________________________________________

From: Chris J.

Gidday gidday,

JP suffering from premature evacuation? now I've heard everything.

First it was a case of premature exclamation, JP offering his thoughts before giving everyone else a go, now its evacuating before offering any comments whatsoever. Get thee to a therapist boy!

But seriously, (well not too much :-} ) I do appreciate JP taking some of my advice for a change, and for his part he took it surprisingly well, its been only a week and we are back on speaking terms....

So on that note it would be rather prudent to stand by my advice and offer some intelligent feedback for a change.

Regarding Colleen's question:

>Can anyone explain to this North American just how popular Dave is in NZ? For example, what % of people would know who he was by his name? his face? one of his songs?

In terms of recognition I think Footrot Flats and 'Slice of Heaven' went a long way to increasing DD's popularity across the board. I don't think 'Footrot Flats: The movie' was intended solely for 'Kiddies' as the comic strip featured in the weekend paper and also sold by itself always proved popular with adults.

Upon reaching No.1 Slice of Heaven featured on NZ's own weekly Video Hits programme RTR (Ready to Roll) on primetime on Sat. (about 6:30pm as I recall....it was a wee while ago....not that I'm that old or anything...) I am not sure how long it stayed there (JP I am SURE will know!) but the video featured some snippets from the film along with the Herbs and some short, podgy, funny looking guy playing a pipe flute. At least thats how my father described him. "Thats Dave Dobbyn dad", I pronounced, "Oh yeah, he's the guy who started the Queen St riots". So to some extent Daves reputation had preceeded him somewhat. Slice of Heaven went a long way to endearing DD and his music back to the NZ public and increasing his popularity amongst the younger generation, myself included.

'Bliss' and 'Be mine tonight' were legendary at any party I went to in my teenage years (now THAT makes me feel old!) and to a greater extent a number of pubs in Auckland still play these songs. Many a 21st birthday party's theme song was 'Bliss', the irony of the song being completely missed on everyone I'm afraid Dave!

SO, in answer to your question Colleen, personally speaking of course,I think DD is very well known in NZ both as a personality and for his music. Local radio stations still run the whole range of his music from Outlook for Thursday, Magic what she do, Slice of Heaven, Oughta be in Love, Loyal, Language, to name a few, all enjoying regular airtime. Regarding recognising the guy if he walked down the street, well its a bit hard to keep up with the hair, (both head and facial) as theres a new look for every album!

Finally, to make a long mail longer, I promised JP a while ago that I would mention the 'Loyal' video as I seem to recall he HAS NOT seen it, and I have. (dig dig) From my recollection, and maybe someone can help me out here, is that the video was filmed in Black and White and featured Dave as a 'third person', ie: visible to us but not those in the video, that is a 'fly on the wall'. The full length of the video was basically one 'take' and involved a single camera following DD up a flight of stairs and into a house where he walked around recollecting certain events in a dream like way (hence the B&W methinks). Not long after its release I can recall seeing a 'making of' mini-documentary about how the 'Loyal' video was made. It was the first time in NZ that the new (at the time) gyro-cameras were used for filming (those big cumbersome things that hang off a cameraman and look decidedly uncomfortable but film amazingly steady takes). The use of this camera enabled the 'one' take and resulted in a very fluid, dreamy like effect as the cameraman moved up stairs, through rooms, outside and down stairs again. Unfortunately I have no copies of either the video or the 'making of'- which I think may have been shown as part of a weekly news show. If anyone can recall more information on the video/making of doco it would be much appreciated! (to help my sanity and replace those...blanks that seem to be occuring more regularly when recalling my past :-) )

Well if you made it this far (and JP put it all in!) then thanks for your undivided attention (oh and BTW JP I still think I left plenty of scope for you to respond to Colleen's question as well!)

Chow for now

From: Jon-Paul

Thanks for leaving some blanks for me to fill in Chris. I was starting to feel redundant...

OK- comment time...

Colleen wrote...

> Waiting to post yourself is fine with me as well, but doesn't this presume a lot of people taking your word as gospel....;-)

And why shouldn't they! I am the G.P.B after all- and seeing most of you get ALL your DD info via me, I can distort and twist it (no pun intended) to suit my own diabolical and devious needs.

HAHAHAHEEEEHEEEEEHOOOOOHAHAHA! (maniacal laugh)

> those list members also tried their best to draw a comment inserted below their post from the listowner. It was a strange dynamic. (This is a tangent, not a comparison, BTW.)

Perhaps you guys to have a contest to try NOT to cause me to add my opinion at the end of your posts...now *that* would be a rarity.

> Despite (or would that be because of) no new album from Dave in the foreseeable future, I am bursting with curiosity about it.

Forseeable future??? Dave's writing currently and has layed down demos- I'm not sure how far you can see into the future Colleen- but *I* consider 1997 the "forseeable future..."

>Does anyone know who will produce it? Who will play on it? How far along is he is in the process (i.e., have any songs been written yet?)? When he will go into the studio? Will there be another mosaic missing from the North American release?

I'm sure Mr D himself has a few ideas- so if he does reply to me, that barrage of questions would be the first thing I'd send him- promise.

> And finally one last question:

Whew!

> can anyone explain to this North American just how popular Dave is in NZ?

I think Chris did fairly well above- his Dad knew him by name- due to that Riot thing-

> For example, what % of people would know who he was by his name? his face? one of his songs?

If we take the 15 - 50 demographic, I'd say 95% would know DD's name, 87.3% his face (depending, as Chris says on his latest look- THIS is *the* list for talk on HAIR- it was peroxide blonde & cut really short for the LftN period), and 98.3% would know one of his songs. The other 1.7 % only listen to AC/DC.

> I guess I'm wondering if Footrock Flats was a kiddie movie as well.

Foot-R-O-T Flats (the comic strip) is aimed at adults- its all about the fantasy rural lifestyle urban New Zealanders think exists, and dream that they are connected to (no doubt a lot of it is based on real experiences).

Well, it's the last day of term today for the undergrad's- so there's that excited feel about the campus- y'know impending exams. Of course, now that it's study-break, there isn't a cloud in the sky, and the air is as still as a still thing... and the "Garden Party" happens this afternoon- clashing with the last wine-tasting of the year (sticky dessert wines)- so I think I'll go to the wine tasting, and view, but not partake in the Beer'n'Bands'n'Bonking festivities of the Garden Party itself.

Oh- and Chris- about your quote ("That's Dave Dobbyn dad", I pronounced)- it's funny how the generation gap hinted in Steely Dan's classic "Hey Nineteen" has been inverted!

Seeya

From: Jon-Paul

Picture this- yesterday- 3:30 in the afternoon, Sun's shining, birds singing - the last wine tasting of the year... we're about 1/2 way through- have had dessert riesling & sauvignon, a semillon & a couple of others.

I take a whiff of a lovely marsala, and the wind at that very instant the second band playing at the garden party strikes up it's first notes- only the bass line penetrates the classroom we're sitting in- but then the chorus of the song comes wafting in..."Never get used to the sea... I'm whaling, next port of call, back in my sweet baby's arms..."

It's hard to make a reasonable judgement of the version when all the higer notes are being baffled, so I sneak out the back door of the room & go stand outside. The version was pretty good- but one thing REALLY impressd me... the band played the "violin" outro (and probably the intro, which I missed, on Harmonica- and it sounded fantastic! Currently Dave plays the song acoustic, and mimics the violin lines on his guitar- I guess hiring a violin player for one song per gig is a bit extravagant. Anyway... I think harmonica could be an idea Dave could use in the future for "Whaling" live!

Anyway the band went on, the rest of the set comprising Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Presidents of the USA, Violent Femmes stuff etc- mainstream alternative I guess is the best word for it- perhaps that helps put into perspective (along with Dan's comments above) the love of DD partygoers & revellers have in this country. The first song of an otherwise "alternative" bent set...

I went back to the tasting, knocked back the Sauterne, Tokaij and Marsala, and finally got to the Garden Party about 4:10. I left it at about 4:12- I've had enough of that kinda activity in my undergrad years, the novelty seems to have worn off. (now I'M sounding old...)

Finally- since Rob mentioned the vocal prowess required to immitate the "You Lied" bits at the end of Betrayal, it has been stuck in my mind too- very haunting!

Catchya

From: Daniel F.

>'Bliss' and 'Be Mine Tonight' were legendary at any party I went to in my teenage years (now THAT makes me feel old!).

I just gotta say at this point... I have been in the music business, semi-pro and pro... and no matter where I have played in NZ, all you need to do is start playing one note from "Bliss" or "Be mine tonight" in any NZ bar or pub, no matter where, and you'll have an immediate audience responce of crowding onto the dance floor!!! And I am talking about today, not 1 month, or 1 year ago!

Same goes for playing many of DD's more recent material for that fact... with special exception noted to "Loyal" here.

> Regarding recognising the guy if he walked down the street, well its a bit hard to keep up with the hair, (both head and facial) as theres a new look for every album!

Yep... tis is true, but you CAN always spot DD by his relaxed nature and positive personal outlook, and... erm... well... ok, his physical height is always a good one too, when in doubt. :)

> If anyone can recall more information on the video/making of doco it would be much appreciated! (to help my sanity and replacethose...blanks that seem to be occuring more regularly when recalling my past :-) )

Ok... as far as the vid for Loyal goes, yes it IS all in black and white. I have seen it a few times, but not in a while now, so my memory could be a little unreliable here as well. I don't recall it as being one long shot, but I do remember it featured DD as the "3rd" person, and I *think* it shows him playing the piano as well? Hmmm... not sure about that one as there is no actual piano in the song! Ok, my memory is not that wonderful either. Sorry. :( Actually, I am pretty sure it IS Loyal I am thinking of....

Dan.

From: Gavin M.

Greetings from NZ! I am not in NZ now, but I just spent two weeks soaking up the... the... not sun, but atmosphere. Auckland and Rotorua were buzzing. Napier seemed a little quiet, nice vineyards though.

The two weeks meant I had two weeks of Umm's to read. Luckily most of them seem to have been about Whaling, and largely highly suspect. A couple of things did catch my eye:

3 Nov JP: It seems a lot of classis Kiwi songs have a nautical theme.

This is interesting as a Korean girl who was very interested in popular music listened two a couple of hours of Kiwiw music and said that the SOUND was that of space and the sea.

? Nov JP (again): DD singing the call and response part to whling at a concert and getting NO reply.

I am guilty, as are other members of this list, of not replying to DD in the Brisbane concert. But my excuse is that the audience were just sitting there, and no one stood up, and I'm quite shy really, and a lone voice in reply would sound even WORSE than none at all. (None means no one knows they should, one means that people know they should but are just NOT!)

? Nov Katie: What do people think about the "Loyal" album?

I just bought the CD. (We owned the tape when in was first released.) Listening to it now, with DD's next two CD's in mind, I found that it had aged well. Many of the things that make Lament and Twisted remarkable are there on Loyal: The political songs on Loyal (Ain't No Doubt - excellent. Hell Takes No Holiday - still very pointed: "One man's liberty chains another. Some have given everything and some are wealthy."). The interesting musical twists and heartfelt love lyrics are there too: Loyal (the song), Slice of Heaven.

Good album. And look at the backing singers: Annie Crummer, Wendy Mathews, Margaret Urlich, Bunny Walters, Mark Williams and Jenny Morris.

I would also like to make a quick trip into the "what are the lyrics" debate. I agree that the printed lyrics are sometimes not what are sung on the actual recording. This is true of a lot of bands. And live versions are often changed. I think that the use of lyric sheets in arguments over lyrics is not fair: The recorded version may be different.

On to new things. I loved being back in NZ. Everything seemed creative and exciting. Art, clothes, music. Ah, the music. I got the latest Annie Crummer CD. Smooth and pacific. Emma Paki's first CD. Very interesting, still getting used to her voice. Got DLT's Chains, featuring Supergroove's ex-lead singer. Great single, particularly the final remix. Got a couple of Strawpeople things. Difficult to believe these are a couple of guys in Wellington on a Macintosh. Got an old Moana and the Moahunters single I was missing. When will she do more?? BUT I missed out on the latest Mutton Birds CD, released two days after I returned to Oz, and they refused to release it to me any earlier! It was to come with some free second CD of a concert. Cruising Auckland knowing all this was going on with Neil Finn recording in his house and DD around the next corner added to the atmosphere of the biggest Polynesian city in the world.

Enough raving. Stay cool 'til after school.

Gavin

From: Jon-Paul

No-ones bitten regarding the Dobbyn slagging... so I thought I'd have some fun with it, in a 100 words or less styled list contest...

I found a review for (NZ 80's popsters) The Narcs new album in Real Groove magazine (also, see below)...

And I'm none too happy about the ignorant Dobbyn comparison. Think I might be writing a letter soon, though I don't expect a sensible reply- that magazine has gone WAY downhill since the old editor left a couple of months back (Russell Brown, or is it Russell Bailey... I forget...y'know, the Neil Finn fax fight guy!...)

So folks, this weeks essay is to discuss the following statement...

"So what we get is basically similar to... recent Dave Dobbyn; ultimately just drab pub rock of a kind that should've died out years ago."

Any good comments / one liners will find themselves included in a somewhat negative letter from me (Sending a letter from "Umm" collectively would look a bit wanky) to "Brother Love" at Real Groove Magazine.

...won't it be nice to all argue a point, on the *same* side for a change ;-)

Luvya

REAL GROOVE REVIEWS - NARCS: Push the Boat Out

Tony Waine describes this as the, "third album that we always wanted to record," and it does indeed sound at times like 1986, "unplugged," and obviously driven by nostalgia. Sure, Narcs (now stripped of the definitive article; the Narcs) were responsible for some of this country's better selling and fresher/fruitier sounding singles of the early '80s. But now they seem at pains to seem "older and wiser" with consequent loss of the blow-wave veneer of the band's '80s output. So what we get is basically similar to solo Brazier or recent Dave Dobbyn; ultimately just drab pub rock of a kind that should've died out years ago. I hate to say it, but I've heard better drab pub rock made by 22 year olds. And what was it with '80s bands' obsession with that hideous effect peddle known as the Chorus? This album is awash with it, plus generous servings of Hammond organ to give it that "classic rock" feel. The songwriting seems to be inspired by country-rock such as John Hiatt and the aforementioned Dobbyn, finding its most cohesive moment in "Hopeless Friends," and its direst in "Perfect Paradox," while "Scare Me" is a total Crowded House rip-off. Enough said. Overall, a muted, unsatisfying comeback. It's likely these guys could do better, but probable? (4)

Brother Love

I think the word "recent" offends me the most in the review- I could handle ",similar to solo Brazier or *vintage* Dave Dobbyn; ultimately just drab pub rock",... possibly...(well, actually, no- but it's not as bad as "RECENT"!!!)

Write your "best" reply to "Real Groove" Magazine's review, don't worry, I won't send it, It'll just be for our amusement- I'm thinking Pythonesque / Blackadder styled personal putdowns & insults directed at the author of the article, "Brother Love"

Send them this way, and if I get a good (ie *any*) response there may even be a Dobbyn-styled prize in it for the best one.

Cheers

From: John K.

Hi JP,

Here's MTR for the Ummers.

Surprised there hasn't been any discussion in Umm of Emma Paki's album. Maybe you could bring it up. I've heard it a few times, and it was nice but it didn't really grab me. I remember being a bit disappointed in the Neil song (Greenstone?). And as for the title: "Oxygen of Love" (shudder), that would be enough to turn off 80% of potential buyers.

Cheers,

John K

From: Colleen M.

Hello everyone,

JP asked us (and promised):

> Write your "best" reply to "Real Groove" Magazine's review, don't worry, I won't send it, It'll just be for our amusement- I'm thinking Pythonesque / Blackadder styled personal putdowns & insults directed at the author of the article, "Brother Love"

[snip]

> ...won't it be nice to all argue a point, on the *same* side for a change ;-)

I'm feeling a bit peverse today so I have to step up and say that I disagree with this tack. I think an impassioned letter from one or more of us would only reinforce his feelings about what losers (or if you prefer, wankers) DD fans are.

I say that we draft a letter pointing out all the negative things he *missed* about Dave--you know, have a bit of fun at his expense. A clueless response would be so much more amusing than just sticking up for Dave (it's not going to change his mind, so why bother trying to make the case?).

For example:

-------------

Dear Mr. Love,

I read your article of the Narcs (oops, Narcs) new album and I have to say that I couldn't agree more. I am especially glad that you also trashed Dave Dobbyn, because he is, in my opinion, single-handedly ruining pop music in New Zealand.

You refer to his music as "drab pub rock"--ha! I mean, he's only sparked *one* riot that I know of. It would be a compliment if his recent work could aspire to this level. "Twist" is full of sad excuses for rock and roll--delicate arrangements and careful harmonies. The comparison to John Hiatt is dead on. It's too bad that aging rock stars don't off themselves instead of turning inward, writing love songs, and growing beards.

And as for their Crowded House rip-off; well it's just another example of how lacking in ideas they are that they have to resort to ripping off Neil Finn et. al.

Thanks ever so much for being the voice of musical reason.

Yours etc.,

------------

I'm not as inspired as I would like to be with respect to this, but I do think it would be more satisfying to take the piss out of him this way. Perhaps someone else more familiar with the NZ music scene could trace the terrible influence Dave has had on it over the years?

Later all,

Colleen

From: Jon-Paul

Colleen,

Absolutely Fantastic- I LOVE it!!! Did you know DD was recording LftN in LA at the time of the Riots over there....coincidence, or mere chance similarity- you decide...

Don't think the CH / Neil Finn sentence really works, but that's about it...anyone like to add a bit to the "letter"?? (or even write their own??)- "tracing the path of destruction Mr Dobbyn has had on the industry here..."

Loving Every Minute,

From: Robbie B.

Subject: DD: Outraged!

Following Colleen's wit at the expense of some hapless reviewer, I add a little more...

---------------------------------------------------------

"recent Dave Dobbyn; ultimately just drab pub rock of a kind that should've died out years ago"

Sir,

I think I speak for all aging fans of Dave Dobbyn out there, when I express the gravest outrage at the scurrilous accusation that Dave Dobbyn is, as you so wittily put it, "drab".

My friend, if you cannot appreciate classic "pub rock" then you have as much taste as a tinnie of Castlemaine XXXX that has sat open on a barstool all evening. Mate, I often bang my head til I pass out to the thumping beat of "Loyal". That's when I ain't moshing to the rhythm of "Betrayal", or "Oughta be in Love". And who can resist doing the heavy-metal air guitar routine to that beer soaked anthem, "Belle of the Ball"?

Sure, "Don't Hold Your breath" is a bit of a boneheaded thrash. But look at it in a different way and it becomes more just a fun, simple, romp -- a reworking of "Be Mine Tonight" if you will.

Let's face it, Dave Dobbyn is a product of the eighties and will never, ever sound any different. I wouldn't have expected him to have changed one bit since 1985, especially if I hadn't listened to any of his songs since then.

Yours insincerely,

From: Jacqui D.

Hi Ummmers,

OK, as things seem a trifle stagnant at the moment, I'd like to hear some opinions on the following : [taking my life in my hands] Is the New Zealand music industry becomming incestuous?? [not sure if I've spelt that correctly, my MS Works didn't recognise it when I checked!!]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favour of as many great musical minds/talents as poss coming together in the name of making perfectly crafted songs. I guess in the case of - for example - Don McGlashan [MB's] playing EuphoniUmmm [oops sorry] on IDOM , there probably wasn't too much of his influence made on the track, like it could have been *any* ol' Euphonium player [tho I do *love* that sound he makes, very subtle] But what I'm asking I guess is: Is there a danger that by people like Neil, Dave, Tim, Emma etc... working together , their own individual styles & sounds could all boil down into an indistinguishable concoction of flavours, or is it fair to say that by adding some "essence of Neil" or some of "Tims' spice" you'll get a completely different dish every time???

Just a few ideas to bounce around [maybe]

Off at a tangent......

*Every* time I hear "Naked Flame" I am STILL blown away by the change from verse to chorus!! "...And the room goes on forever. Sudden...staring at her naked flame" It never ceases to thrill/amaze/please/lift my god damn soul!!!!

See Yas Jack :-) Preparing [as we speak] to get flamed by all those that have misinterpreted my sentiments!!

From: Katie H.

Howdy all Ummers and Happy Holidays!

I don't have much to write, even regarding various erect structures...umm..er...however, I think Belltower is a beautiful song, and I always just assumed Dave was using a cool metaphor for a love relationship. He's good at using metaphors, that Dave is. I like the song about sexual dysfunction. I think it's called Whaling or something? ;-)

On to more mundane things:

I was recently listening to "Collection" and I definitely agree with whoever wrote that Dave sounds like David Bowie on most of these songs. It's a bit scary, in fact, unless of course you are a huge Bowie fan [as I know one of our members is! ;-)] I don't particularly care for Dave's Bowie style and am very glad he moved on to something that's more his own style. It's interesting listening to this old stuff to see DD's progression as a songwriter and singer. He is someone that seems to improve with age, which is good for us late DD bloomers. Turns out we noticed him at the right time.

Can't believe Chris and JP will send several joint e-mails over the holidays. Should we set up a censorship board to screen our messages? ;-)

Cheers all,

Katie

From: Jon-Paul

Howdy All,

Jacqui mentioned the incestuous nature of the Kiwi music industry; lets think - Dobbyn on Finn, The Muttonbirds & the Finns & Paki on Twist. Finns on Paki's Greenstone, Dave Gent (Exponents) on Bic Runga's single and the Finn live shows. Dobbyn producing Bic. Dobbyn with the Exponents. The whole ENZSO thing. The Finns on Annie Crummers "Seventh Wave"... yeah, you may have a point... I think it harks back to the music scene of the 60's when Eric jams with Jimi, whio pops in with to jam with the Doors, while Eric plays with the Stones, who sing backup with the Beatles, who invite Eric along for a guitar solo etc... I LOVE THE WHOLE KIWI VIBE! It's a fantastic music scene down here, you never know who's gonna run on stage during the encore of a gig for a jam.

AND NOW FOR SOME *ACTUAL* NEW DOBBYN NEWS!!!!!!

This from the latest (Dec 1996) issue of Rip It Up

"Lost & Found is a retrospective collection of photos by Kerry Brown, Dave Dobbyn, Greg Semu and Darryl Ward, at Auckland's Gow Langsford Gallery, December 10 to 24. Though best known as a musician, Dobbyn has taken his photography seriously for years. Brown, Semu and Ward have all directed videos and photographed both music and lifestyles. "I've learnt a lot about photography from Kerry, Darryl, and Greg," says Dobbyn. "I'm really flattered to be doing a show with them."

So my fellow Ummers, Chris & myself will go on an expedition to the Gow Langsford Gallery next week, report on the photographs, attempt to spot Mr Dobbyn, and if possible, harass the shit out of him for taking so long to produce any new songs.

Thats all folks

From: Chris J.

Hi All,

I cut out a brief article on DD's ventures into the world of the visual medium, "the language of light is the same as that of sound: it's about textures and layers." This from the horses mouth himself... yeah right pal, "You're just trying to justify why you haven't released another bloody album, ya bastard!" is our cry. So if JP or others want, I could be pressed (or bribed, there's mention of a lot around here lately ;-) ) to type out the article (its not that long).

There is a sample snap of one of DD's photos titled 'Cat Woman', which sadly bears no resemblance at all to Michelle Pfeiffer in a black latex suit, it actually consists of a 'cat' and a 'woman', funnily enough. The shot is taken from a feline perspective and the tabby, although looking rather disshevelled and malnourished is poised to whip Daves nose off. The show should be interesting....

Bye for now

From: John K.

Howdy, Umm.

A couple of things occurred over the weekend. (Oops - I almost wrote "came up" in that last sentence. Phew! Glad I avoided that slip.)

First, to continue the theme of incest in the NZ music industry... I was talking to a Close Personal Friend in the Music Industry (ie he works in a CD store), and he told me that Dave is producing and playing guitar in the upcoming new single by Greg Johnson. (Doh! I just used the word "upcoming"! Big mistake on this particular list.)

But is it *really* that incestuous? Are mutant albums with six fingers and two heads going to start popping up? (Doh! Popping up. Doh!). Actually I think we'll be fine as long as fine musicians like SuperGroove and Shihad are around to keep the bloodline strong. ;-}

Hmm. I mean Ummm. Anyone keen to rewrite the words to OMC's "How Bizarre" to reflect the NZ music scene?

John.

From: Katie H.

Howdy Ummers!

1) Who's Greg Johnson?

2) Regarding Jacqui's post about incestuous music scenes: I, for one, love the fact that both NZ and Aust. have VERY incestuous music scenes because if affords me the chance to find out rather easily about new bands and interesting songwriters. All I have to do is read the liner notes of any album, write down the names, and go search the import bins at my local music store, and I've found some great new music. That's how I heard of Dave Dobbyn, as a matter of fact. Five years ago I bought G.W. McLennan's first solo album (he was previously a member of the Go-Betweens) and saw Dave's name listed as producer. Paul Kelly and numerous other music luminaries grace G.W.'s album, so I knew Dave must be some sort of musical God because he was tapped as producer. It took me four years to find his music, but so far it's been worth the wait. .

I would bet that these musicians feel lucky to work with each other and be inspired by each other. I don't think any of these artists overshadow each other's music talents. What's annoying is when musicians look so far outside their realm that they end up copying whatever is hot on the world charts at the moment. I.e. silverchair sounding like Nirvana. If they looked more at themselves and their fellow musicians they'd probably make better music. (IMHO)

Ciao,

From: Jon-Paul

1) Who's Greg Johnson?

Right- a kiwi musician who's been in a number of bands in the last 5 years. He's young, handsome & talented (what is this, a press release?)

Anyway he first broke it with his band "The Greg Johnson Set" releasing two classic singles including "Isabelle"- a song about a refugee from Bosnia, but so deliciosly wrapped up in melody, you'd never know it was about a tradgedy, unless you really listened. I can't for the life of me recall the other huge hit. Imagine the Muttonbirds, with a jazzier angle. Greg also plays in a jazz combo, where he's lead singer (& saxophonist?) called Bluespeak, and more recently has released pop singles as simply "Greg Johnson".

Anyone got something to add about Greg?

The new single will be sought out & reviewed whilst I'm in AK!

Ciao

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