Get your Free HomepageFrom: Robbie B.
Hi Everybody,
Great to have this list going. Thanks JP! I have lurked a long time on the CH list, but I have never felt the need to post. However DD is my real favourite. We can complain about the lack of Finn promotion and product in Canada, we get absolutely none about DD. He is criminally neglected. It has probably never been released here in fact.
I have only really been a major fan (I did have "Loyal") after hearing "Don't hold your breath", on Karyn Hay's (?) radio show about NZ musical history. After hearing various DD standards (which all Kiwis will have heard about a billion times, maybe more), the first crisp jangles of the start of "DHYB" cut through.
Wow! Such a beautiful melody, and for the first time, really decent, restrained production. Although "Lament for the Numb" is DD's least accessible album, apart from the great songs, it does a couple of things brilliantly which he never did before. Listen to some of his stuff on the album "Loyal" and the production is a little twee and over processed (Jeff Lynne eat your heart out). I can't accuse LFtN of that sin. Also, DDs songs are often fairly simple and sometimes the chorus is not too distinct from the verse. By keeping the songs short we can't get bored. The songs never outstay their welcome. No prizes for guessing which is my favourite album...
Still, I can't wait for the new album. I know what I want for Christmas.
If there are others DD fans close by (I live in Southern Ontario. That's Canada, people.) drop me a line.
R.
From: Oren L.
Hi everybody,
Well, I'm probably risking being eternally labelled as the list idiot, but since JP so kindly requested any type of message be sent, I will risk it. However, I must state that if my question seems stupid, I do have a major excuse: Presently residing in the US, I am completely CD-less (well, except for what I bought here which as you might imagine isn't too Dobbyn related). Therefore, I cannot check the lyrics on the CD (and as far as I recall, even had I had the CD the lyrics are pretty impossible to figure out) and may be completely misunderstanding them.
Anyway, to get to the point: In "Don't Hold Your Breath", which is possibly my favourite Dobbyn song, among other things the US Congress votes to do, I seem to recall returning California to the Jews. I repeat: I have not checked the lyrics and am possibly misunderstanding them, so if this is the case, just send those bashing "You dumb Israeli who can't understand English" messages to me. But if this is indeed what he sings, why does he do so. Being Jewish and fully aware of the not so few madmen who roam my country of Israel and expect every centimetre of land in the area to be awarded to them (and in this respect I fully wish for his statement assuming the creation of an independent Palestine in the same song, though he got the order wrong - first it was Gaza and only then (maybe, considering our newly elected government) the West Bank), I have yet to see any Jew make claim for California. Nor am I aware of California ever being possessed by the Jews, except for that Hollywood-ish region where everyone appeared Jewish for quite some time...
So, assuming my interpretation of the lyrics is correct, can anyone explain this? Or have I completely missed out on something?
Wishing all a happy New Year (Shanah Tova in Hebrew),
Oren.
From: Jon-Paul Hansen
Yahoo!
Oren, that is the exact type of post I've been hoping to get. And don't worry, it IS "California back to the Jews". So you may well be the "list idiot", but it's certainly not for that reason ;-) I have no idea about the historical significance of the line, but "Jews" does rhyme with Sioux rather nicely! Anyone out there major in Western US history?
Adios Amigos, JP
From: Rob F.
Hi,
I'm behind the thread on this one, but I wanted to respond to what Oren wrote in regard to "DHYB" lyrics:
> I have yet to see any Jew make claim for California. Nor am I aware of California ever being possessed by the Jews, except for that Hollywood-ish region where everyone appeared Jewish for quite some time...
I am no history major, but I suspect there ARE no historical facts lying behind this verse. Keep in mind the context: it's a very cynical song narrated by someone who is world-weary and hopeless (thus the refrain, "Don't hold your breath"). To me, it sounds like he's speaking to a woman who is very hopeful and perhaps naïve (thus, "She said don't fool me now, I believe every word that you said ... what you believe could come true").
Some of the items in the list of things to NOT hold one's breath for are historically-based, but others seem to be complete fabrications along the lines of, "...and if you believe THAT one, then here's another one you might believe, too"). Here, I would include the French planting trees in Brazil (to replenish the rainforests, I suppose) and turning Antarctica into a world park ("plenty of ozone above your head").
Another possibility is that, because he was recording "Lament" in LA, he was taking a swipe at that stereotype about Jews and Hollywood, as Oren mentioned. In the end, JP's comment probably gets to the bottom of it: "Jews" rhymes pretty well with "Sioux." Peace to the list!
-Rob
From: Gavin
I don't think DD was saying that the jews ever claimed California, he was saying give California to the Jews, freeing up Palistine, solving the Jewish/Arab conflict in the Mid-East. The song does not say the Jews claim California.
Gavin
From: Katie H.
Hi JP,
I was listening to Lament for the Numb yesterday, for the first time in nearly 8 months, and it's exceptional. Not as good as Twist IMHO (the production is a bit sterile--please don't flame me about Mr. Froom!), but really excellent. I can see the seeds of Twist in it, especially in Belltower and DHYB. Those are my favorite songs on the album.
When Dave sings, he puts across the same emotional intensity that Paul Kelly does. Some of the songs hit you smack between the eyes. They both sing with a certain intense yearning and weariness that sucks you right into the deep, dark end of the pool. They've seen the dark side and don't mind showing us a bit of it--albeit watered down for sanity's sake. (They are both deeply romantic as well, which I also like!) ) Neil Finn's songs are more emotionally subliminal because they are more lyrically obtuse. (yeah, sort of like my descriptions!) I'd be interested in others' thoughts.
I first noticed DD thru his production work on GW McLennan's albums, so it was nice to read the article on the two of them and how they hooked up. Thanks.
Katie
From: Jon-Paul Hansen
Hey- Me again,
I've just gotta say that "Palace" on LftN does strange things to me. It's a dreary, “tuneless” number- but everytime I hear it, it simply moves me- emotionally. There is something simply magical about it. Now I'm (only) 25 years old, but the "Movietone News" etc fill me with pictures of post-war news-footage, which I've seen on TV, and I imagine my Dad (in glorious black & white) as a kid, eating his ice cream watching some western serial at the Civic Theatre in Auckland (It is actually ABOUT the Civic I believe)- going to the movies with a shilling, buying an ice-cream, and "still having enough left for fish & chips on the way home"- God, everyone's Dad must have told them THAT story a million times...
So, yeah, no point really- except that "Palace" connects with me in a way I simply cannot explain (bit like Fingers of Love from CH- except I've no idea what that's about- but it makes me feel like crying- not that I do cry, (MATE!)- but after a couple of gins anything is possible)... Sorry to make you read that drivel...
Love JP
From: Katie H.
>>...So, yeah, no point really- except that
"Palace" connects with me <<
in a way I simply cannot explain (bit like Fingers of Love from CH- except
I've no idea what that's about- but it makes me feel like crying- not
that I do cry,(MATE!)- but after a couple of gins anything is
possible)...<<
Glad to see someone else wax poetic about a song that means something to them. Sometimes you can't help youreself. That's the beauty of music, isn't it?
Ciao, Katie
___________________________________________________________
From: Robbie B.
JP burbled about LftN's "Palace"
> It's a dreary, tuneless number
DD has said that he was trying to write a tune with as few notes as possible. I can't remember how many he said he ended up with, but I think he said 4 notes. It is interesting how calculated this approach is to songwriting.
Palace is a nice little interlude, and sensibly, it is kept short. Palace sounds to me like a precursor to "Betrayal" but I like it in its own right. (Incidentally, "Belltower" sounds to me like a precursor to "Naked Flame").
I didn't realise the song was about "The Civic". "The Civic", for those non-Aucklanders on the list, is one of those older larger movie theatres with that slightly plush decor. The Civic had some sort of sculptures on the walls (stone lions?) but I can't remember, too well. They've probably bulldozed it for a cineplex by now.
JP then said:
>"Palace" connects with me in a way I simply cannot explain
Kiwi blokes are only supposed to get teary-eyed when the All Blacks lose, aren't they?
I have always felt the best songs move one emotionally in some fashion. "Palace" has that extra something, as I think do "Belltower" and "DHYB" on LftN, and "Naked Flame","Rain on Fire", and "What do you really want?", on Twist. YMMV.
R.
From: John K.
Howdy,
Maybe you or someone else could explain to me what the heck "Belltower" is all about anyway? Why not let it toll? And why the sudden imagery of snow and ice so soon after green trees and riverbanks? (it just doesn't work for me). In fact, the only lyrics from that song that I do like are the first two lines of the chorus. Not that there are many lyrics in it anyway. If it weren't for the neat guitar part, this would be a real dud, almost in the same class as those two turkeys off Twist (spot quiz - guess which songs I mean?).
Cheers
John K
From: Jon-Paul Hansen
Hi
At the start of Belltower Live (Revolver, I believe, though it could be the Gluepot Language B-sides), Davo says "This is an archetectural song... the archetecture of luuuurve....", and as I know we have an architect on board, who has in fact privately expressed an interest in posting his thoughts on Belltower, I hope that John's comment is the kick up the bum he needs to put finger to keypad, and write a dissertation on the song for our collective benefit.
OK Thats' all- though John, you don't like two songs on Twist???? What are you crazy??? ;-)
Seeyaall JP
From: Jon-Paul Hansen
Hello,
Last time (so long ago) I wrote
> At the start of Belltower Live (Revolver, I believe, though it could be the Gluepot Language B-sides), Davo says "This is an archetectural song... the archetecture of luuuurve....", and as I know we have an architect on board, who has in fact privately expressed an interest in posting his thoughts on Belltower, I hope that John's comment is the kick up the bum he needs to put finger to keypad, and write a dissertation on the song for our collective benefit.
Sadly Chris obviously needs a bigger kick up the bum, which I will deliver with delight next Friday when I see him again. I was thinking of "Belltower" myself, and was almost tempted to tie in the "archetecture of Luurve" comment, with the word "erection"- as in erecting a tower- and descent into the pits not seen on this list, well, since the "Whaling" furore. Luckily a surprise attack of "good-taste" intervened. Honestly, you don't want to know!
I might add, that like a lot of Paul Simons lyrics, I think the "sound" of the Lyrics is all the song needs to be a masterpiece- what the words actually mean is inconsequential. In Belltower the melody & delivery of the lyrics is fantastic... who needs meaning?
JP.
From: Colleen M.
Hello all,
As I will eventually get to Belltower, I was going to title this post "Ding Dong", but as there is a certain element on this list who insist on taking things out of context, I had to desist. It's too bad when there are a few who ruin it for everyone...
John asked:
> But maybe you or someone else could explain to me what the heck "Belltower" is all about anyway? Why not let it toll? And why the sudden imagery of snow and ice so soon after green trees and riverbanks? (it just doesn't work for me). In fact, the only lyrics from that song that I do like are the first two lines of the chorus. Not that there are many lyrics in it anyway. If it weren't for the neat guitar part, this would be a real dud, almost in the same class as those two turkeys off Twist (spot quiz - guess which songs I mean?).
I can't answer your questions John, because I have the same ones myself. And as I was just at a belltower yesterday, I have to ask, if the bell doesn't toll, then what's the point of the belltower? It's not related to "ask not for whom the bell tolls", is it? And if it is, then how does this death image fit in this love song (I mean, it's not "Charlie", right?) And if this is a metaphor for love, as Katie suggests, then why lock her up in a tower? There is a claustrophobic quality to these lyrics I guess I don't like. But I do like the bit about how the sun is sharp (can't remember exactly how it goes).
Colleen
From: Chris J.
Howdy,
As you may have read a coupla posts back JP said:
>At the start of Belltower Live (Revolver, I believe, though it could be the Gluepot Language B-sides), Davo says "This is an archetectural song... the archetecture of luuuurve....", and as I know we have an architect on board, who has in fact privately expressed an interest in posting his thoughts on Belltower, I hope that John's comment is the kick up the bum he needs to put finger to keypad, and write a dissertation on the song for our collective benefit.
Yes, tis true, twas I and I'm secretly dreading this Saturday when JP arrives and seeks retribution for my slackness. I was in fact studiously searching my old history notes on ancient monolithic erections and their functions to offer a professional perspective on Belltower but now realise it was simply another excuse for JP to plunge us back into the vile pit of smut and innuendo, and you all know my thoughts on that. ;-)
I agree with Katie (yes really!) on the metaphor/love relationship notion and that DD is using the Belltower as a 'monument to love', much like the Romans and Greeks who constructed similar structures, (though bell-less until the sixth-century when the Christian Church introduced them) as monuments to their gods. The Belltower, or Campanile (Italian) also served as a belfry (for raising the alarm) and defense (for seeing who was coming to beat you up so you got all of 10 minutes to get ready before having the bejeezus kicked out of you). Hey this was the Medieval period.
The belltower generally stood alone but was an integral part of the church/cathedral/town hall to which it belonged. They were adorned with arches, engaged shafts, (hey come on I'm being serious!), columns, arcades etc. the general effect produced a union of strength and delicacy. Classic examples are the leaning tower of Pisa (probably not the image DD had in mind), San Marco in Venice and Giotto's Tower in Florence.
The tower metaphor, 'union of strength and delicacy' parallels the notion of a marriage or a partnership between two people and so DD's belltower could symbolise his love and commitment to his wife. The lines....
>No I never let it toll
>Cause I'm ringing out, ringing out for you
>Only the tower knows
enhances the intimacy by suggesting that the bell does not chime to signal anyone else about their love but purely exists 'inside'. I love DD's imagery during the beginning of the song where he creates the setting for the tower, by a river, tall grass, seasons pass, etc. and then the tower itself, and finally the notion of the tower as a metaphor. One could imagine walking through such an idyllic landscape (I have images of Lake Pukaki at the foot of Mt Cook in the South Island) and stumbling upon this wonderful structure and wondering who built it? why? Theres a mystery and intimacy in that song that do it for me and I have to admit its one of my faves.
Crikey have I crapped on! "Enough already", I hear you say. (Actually I did it because I want to remove the pillow I have stuffed down my trousers to cushion the impact of JP's boot). So JP can I, or what?
CJ.
From: Jon-Paul
Hey Chris- FANTASTIC post- this is the first time I've actually learned something from an Umm, other than a new rude word. Remove that pillow my friend, thoust art redeemed...
(regarding Colleen's take on Belltower)
> It's not related to "ask not for whom the bell tolls", is it?
No.
> And if it is, then how does this death image fit in this love song?
Hey, don't you listen- I said it's NOT!
> And if this is a metaphor for love, as Katie, suggests, then why lock her up in a tower?
Hey, this isn't the story of Repunzel (sp?)!
I think Chris summed up Belltower perfectly, hopefully answering John & Colleen's queries. FWIW, here's my take on the lyrics...
BELLTOWER
Let's build a belltower here, babe
Watch the grass around it grow
Build a big belltower here now
Shelter from the sun in its sharp shadow
(Basically, lets start a relationship / build a home / settle down, shelter from the "burning" of the outside world within the tower of love)
Build it along classic lines
Somewhere secluded like here
Right here by these trees and this flowing river
(see "Private Universe"- nothing else matters apart from their love)
Never let it chime, never let it toll
Rain falls to trickle, trickle turns to flow
(Love keeps growing stronger)
Shine and blow, don't water still flow
Beneath this ice and driven snow
(Time passes- the love is still there, but there may be problems on the surface- notice no wise-cracks on being "frigid"- I'm doing well!)
And people say they can tell there's no crack in this bell
I know I'll never let it toll
(Noone else notices any sign of problems, and the narrator doesn't ever forsee any maritial strife)
'Cos I'm ringing out, I'm ringing for you
Only the tower knows
(Again, I take it as the man telling the woman he is still here for her, and noone else outside the relationship (tower) knows of any possible domestic disharmony)
Never let 'em know how it feels
It's just the seasons that are real
Let's build a belltower here, baby
Let's build a belltower here, right here
(Lets build the belltower, the relationship *will* work...)
Of course you're bound to disagree- so lets hear your opinion then!
Love JP
From: Colleen Matan
Hey y'all,
Chris wrote:
[eloquent belltower history snipped]
> The tower metaphor, 'union of strength and delicacy' parallels the notion of a marriage or a partnership between two people and so DD's belltower could symbolise his love and commitment to his wife. The lines....
Jon-Paul wrote:
[snide comments about my comments snipped]
> I think Chris summed up Belltower perfectly, hopefully answering John & Colleen's queries. FWIW, here's my take on the lyrics...
In order to live up to my reputation of being contrary, I must say that I am still not convinced. And I refuse to be shut in a belltower, unable to toll. Plus the posts from Chris and J-P have given me this stunning insight--the song is clearly, and actually, about "the love that dare not speak its name."
To wit, look at the closeted, secluded imagery:
> Build it along classic lines
> Somewhere secluded like here
> Right here by these trees and this flowing river
or
> Shine and blow, don't water still flow
> Beneath this ice and driven snow
or
> Never let 'em know how it feels
> It's just the seasons that are real
The rest of the lyrics speak of having to take precautions because of idiots and bigots:
> Build a big belltower here now
> Shelter from the sun in its sharp shadow
or
> Never let it chime, never let it toll
> Rain falls to trickle, trickle turns to flow
or
> And people say they can tell there's no crack in this bell
> I know I'll never let it toll
or
> 'Cos I'm ringing out, I'm ringing for you
> Only the tower knows
It's a sad little song, and it turns out that it *is* claustrophobic after all.
Take care all,
Colleen
_________________________________________________________
From: Jon-Paul Hansen
Hi All,
Regarding Colleen's interpretation of Belltower... I have reassessed my take, and though I won't concede it's about "the love that dare not speak its name" ( "Shining & Blowing"... hmmm, could just as easily be...never mind... "I'm Ringing for You"- well, if you take it literally...err...sorry... "There's no crack in this Belle"... it doesn't HAVE to mean...)
Whew, with a bit of luck that went over everyones head...
What I will admit however is that in my new take of the song the Man in the song loves the lady he is with, but she "just wants to be friends" (puke), he sees a future- and loves the woman, but will never let her or anyone else know, in case it ruins the friendship they have. I know there are those on this list (myself included) who can relate to that situation...yes, it is a *very* claustrophobic song.
JP
From: Gavin M.
Dear Ummers,
I have missed getting involved in a couple of points: Belltower, and the NZ music scene. I have to agree with Colleen that Belltower is not a happy song. She calls it "claustrophobic" and I agree. The lines "Never let 'em know how it feels, it's only the seasons that are real' are sad, and sung in a very sad manner. There is no way I can accept that Belltower is a happy love song. Something unpleasant is happening.
Gavin.
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